Masking Your Edgelit LCD TV for Better Blacks - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 313 Old 06-25-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post
What is bad about his setup? The uneven brightness in the bars are due to the fact that his TV is edge lit and thus the LED lights are around the edges of the panel. Again, that has nothing to do with how he calibrated his TV. I am sure that his TV is calibrated just fine as Mark knows what he is doing.

My TV is edge lit. I can make my TV look like that (black = not close to black) , but why in the world would I do so?



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Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post
And what I meant to say was REC 709, which is probably what Mark calibrated his TV to using a spectrophotometer. The scene mode for your Sony that would be closest to REC 709 would be movie/cinema or something to that effect. Of course, if you use that setting, you can bring the TV even closer to REC 709 than the settings the manufacturer preset by calibrating it. It's science. You might not get it.

Would that be Cinema 1 or Cinema 2 in the Cinema scene select submenu?



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Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post
W

Mark's hack is not supposed to be a band-aid for issues from a calibration, it is a band-aid for edge lit televisions. I think you missed that entirely.

I have never seen the blacks in a properly setup LCD TV look that bad.



Just as a note, the black in the THX Optimimizer is not pure black either.
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post #122 of 313 Old 06-25-2014, 05:56 PM
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I use white LED strips from IKEA.
Are they 6500K?

BTW, I believe it was a velvet like material that Bob Busch and I used in the light box on my Mits 73 years ago and it worked very well.
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post #123 of 313 Old 06-25-2014, 06:02 PM
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They are not. They are closer to 7500K. You can just use 81A gel filter to make it closer to 6500, but instead I keep it as is but cover them with wax paper so the light is more diffused and more dim too. YMMV.
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post #124 of 313 Old 06-25-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
My TV is edge lit. I can make my TV look like that (black = not close to black) , but why in the world would I do so?






Would that be Cinema 1 or Cinema 2 in the Cinema scene select submenu?






I have never seen the blacks in a properly setup LCD TV look that bad.



Just as a note, the black in the THX Optimimizer is not pure black either.
1) I have seen many edge-lit LED TVs from various brands look just like that in a blacked out room. Mark did not make his black bars look like that. In a bright room his bars will look pretty darn solid black. The black levels in the actual picture should appear deeper than the bars in a dark room due to the lights being located around the edges. You also have a different TV set and your Sony has better dark room performance. There is no reason you would choose to make your blacks lighter. Mark did not choose this either. IT IS NOT FROM CALIBRATING HIS TV!

2) STRAIGHT FROM YOUR MANUAL:

[Cinema 1] : Provides film-based content for a theater-like environment.
[Cinema 2] : Provides film-based content for basic home use.

I am assuming this translates to Cinema 1: Dark room viewing, Cinema 2: Bright room viewing... although it will still not accurately display REC 709. It will require calibration to get there just as it did in CNET'S review. Not that I expect you to understand any of this, but here is a link to the calibration results:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/64294164/S...ration-results

And here are the actual settings David Katzmaier used in order to achieve the calibration (YOUR WELCOME!):

http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_10...ture-settings/

3) SHADDUP!

THE ALL MIGHTY MACACASIAH HAS SPOKEN!

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post #125 of 313 Old 06-25-2014, 06:08 PM
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3) SHADDUP!
ROTFLMAOBT

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post #126 of 313 Old 06-25-2014, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
They are not. They are closer to 7500K. You can just use 81A gel filter to make it closer to 6500, but instead I keep it as is but cover them with wax paper so the light is more diffused and more dim too. YMMV.
Thanks.
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post #127 of 313 Old 06-25-2014, 06:52 PM
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Thread rolled back before the bickering and name-calling. Some legitimate posts may have been lost in the rollback. Discuss the topic and not each other. Further attacks will result in immediate loss of posting privileges in this thread.
Thank you!
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post #128 of 313 Old 06-25-2014, 06:53 PM
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Finally a use for the cardboard that my TV shipped in. I considered something like this but I switch between 4:3, 16:9, 2.4 frequently so I ordered a Panny that has a letter box setting that is supposed to help, I hope it works, I'd hate to have to be switching between masks all the time. Guess I could leave a light on at night but the moths always find a way in. I thought of using Velcro but even so having to switch masks frequently and store them when not in use is the main problem...it's bad enough having to put electrical tape over all the LED's on my equipment. Only thing I can thing of off hand would be to make the masks out of light block cloth and use Velcro for attachment then at least you could fold or roll them up when not in use....you'd need someone to sew up the edges so they don't fray or fold the edges to finished dimensions and glue them.
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post #129 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icon13 View Post

2) STRAIGHT FROM YOUR MANUAL:

[Cinema 1] : Provides film-based content for a theater-like environment.
[Cinema 2] : Provides film-based content for basic home use.

I am assuming this translates to Cinema 1: Dark room viewing, Cinema 2: Bright room viewing... although it will still not accurately display REC 709. It will require calibration to get there just as it did in CNET'S review. Not that I expect you to understand any of this, but here is a link to the calibration results:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/64294164/S...ration-results

And here are the actual settings David Katzmaier used in order to achieve the calibration (YOUR WELCOME!):

http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_10...ture-settings/


1. The instruction manual for the 55NX720 says no such thing.

http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-...ls#/manualsTab


2. The so called "professional" calibration that was performed on Cnet tells you the settings that the calibrator ended up with. However, that calibration was performed in the general scene mode (custom). That calibration is not applied when you go to the Cinema modes (not to mention all other scene modes). In addition, most of the useful setup options were disabled.

I could discuss the settings that he used and ended up with, but that would be a complete waste of time.

So I ask, what good is that "professional" calibration when it does not apply to the screen modes that are commonly used?



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3) SHADDUP!

Click here for the appropriate response!

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post #130 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 05:31 AM
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I note all the caveats in the Cnet calibration method.

http://www.cnet.com/news/picture-set...k-the-editors/
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post #131 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
I note all the caveats in the Cnet calibration method.

http://www.cnet.com/news/picture-set...k-the-editors/
Note that I know David, and I visited his testing lab at CNET last year, to see how he performs calibrations and then reviews TVs. I was talking to him—in person—just yesterday. We even discussed the issue of forum members posting inaccurate info.

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post #132 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 06:50 AM
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So I ask, what good is that "professional" calibration when it does not apply to the screen modes that are commonly used?
So I ask, why would you use another screen mode than the one the calibration was performed on?
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post #133 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Note that I know David, and I visited his testing lab at CNET last year, to see how he performs calibrations and then reviews TVs. I was talking to him—in person—just yesterday. We even discussed the issue of forum members posting inaccurate info.


He calibrates only for use in a dark room. As he noted, the calibration does not apply to use in a bright room or a room that changes in brightness level. He set his base scene mode to from vivid to custom. He made very minor changes to the white balance, he turned the backlight all the way down and then he turned the brightness all the way up. He set the hue to 0. He disabled a lot of options that should not be disabled. He does not use (or calibrate to) any of the optional scene modes.

He also notes that going into the service menu terminates the factory warranty, so that is why they do not go into the service menu for calibration purposes.

I leave my scene mode in automatic. The TV selects the appropriate scene mode based on metadata. I tend to think that the thousands and thousands of hours and millions of yen that Sony spent designing this series of TV's trumps a limited calibration that is based solely for use in a dark room setting without regard to the content.
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post #134 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 07:07 AM
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So I ask, why would you use another screen mode than the one the calibration was performed on?

Because that scene mode calibrated in that manner is never used by most anyone. A Sony Bluray player tells the TV to go to the Cinema scene mode. A football game tells the TV to go to the sports scene mode.

From Cnet:

Thanks for the dark-room picture settings, but could you give me settings for my TV in a bright room?

No, I can't. We don't publish bright-room picture for a number of reasons. First off, room lighting varies tremendously; think about the difference between having a couple dim lamps turned on versus watching in daylight with a window shining on the screen, for instance. Second, a dark room is the best place to enjoy high-quality images, because the screen's reflective properties and the room's ambient light conditions won't influence the onscreen image. Third, we simply don't have the time to do so in every review. For a quick-and dirty bright-room calibration, take our dark-room picture settings and increase the contrast and/or backlight control until the image looks bright enough, then increase brightness until you see all of the detail in shadowy areas.
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post #135 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 07:07 AM
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What metadata? There is no such thing!

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post #136 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 07:15 AM
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Scene mode is a gimmick, there is no metada in the program you're playing, no TV is calibrated from the factory. Calibrated is calibrated, it's objective, there are parameters that needs to be met. It's calibrated or not calibrated, there is no such thing as calibrated for game, calibrated for sports. EVERYTHING, when properly produced will comply to REc 709 colour space, fitting the 16-235 RGb range for D65 display. THAT's IT!

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post #137 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 07:19 AM
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I might add this quote from Cnet.

"Test environment and equipment

The most important piece of test equipment is a trained, expert eye. Test patterns and the latest gear are no substitute for a knowledgeable, keen-eyed evaluator with a background in reviewing similar types of TVs."


http://www.cnet.com/how-we-test-tvs/#TVcalibration
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post #138 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Scene mode is a gimmick, there is no metada in the program you're playing, no TV is calibrated from the factory. Calibrated is calibrated, it's objective, there are parameters that needs to be met. It's calibrated or not calibrated, there is no such thing as calibrated for game, calibrated for sports. EVERYTHING, when properly produced will comply to REc 709 colour space, fitting the 16-235 RGb range for D65 display. THAT's IT!

Dark room, or bright room? Automatic controls off or on?

Well, if there is no metadata in a digital broaodcast, then the Sony selects the sports mode by magic. Same thing goes with the use of a Sony Bluray player - Cinema scene mode is selected by magic.

You are also clueless on what changes are made in various scene modes. The differences are caused neither by magic nor by Imagic.
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post #139 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Well, if there is no metadata in a digital broaodcast, then the Sony selects the sports mode by magic. Same thing goes with the use of a Sony Bluray player - Cinema scene mode is selected by magic.
There's no metadata. I'm sure a player could tell a TV to do something through HDMI CEC but it's not based on the content. You could turn that off... You don't need to change your tv settings for the type of content. Those are arbitrary presets that mean nothing.
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post #140 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post


Do the gray letterbox bars on your LCD TV distract you? Mark Henninger used a cheap and easy solution that can improve the dark-room viewing experience.

-------

When it comes to watching movies, a calibrated TV in a darkened room is a magical combination. When I set everything up correctly, and I've eliminated any interruptions or distractions, the act of watching a movie becomes a truly immersive experience. Don't you love the feeling of being in a movie, experiencing it fully, rather than analyzing it? It's one of my favorite pastimes; in fact, learning how to set up a system that achieves immersion is the primary reason I joined AVS Forum nine years ago.

A lot has changed in the past nine years, especially when it comes to TVs and projectors. Today, LED-lit LCDs come in screen sizes that rival small front-projection rigs, and surprisingly excellent image quality is available for under $1000. And LCD technology now dominates TV sales, which was far from the case nine years ago, when plasma was king. Unfortunately, plasma outperforms LCD when viewed in a darkened space, especially when it comes to reproducing deep blacks.

I recently purchased a 60-inch Samsung F5300 plasma as a direct result of the frustration I felt with the dark-room performance of my edgelit 55-inch Vizio M3D550KD. When the lights go out, it exhibits all the trademark flaws of edgelit TVs with pseudo-local dimming—namely, blooming and the dreaded flashlight effect. Those effects were especially distracting when I watched 2.40:1 letterboxed content, as opposed to material presented in a 16:9 aspect ratio.

For the past few years, and continuing to this day, the most popular LCDs are of the edgelit variety, which makes for a very thin TV. However, LED-edgelit TVs suffer in the image-quality department, especially when it comes to how they reproduce shadows and deep blacks. 2014 brings a ray of hope for LED TVs, thanks to the adoption of full-array backlighting by several manufacturers. Backlit arrays boost black level performance by making it possible to shut off LCDs in a very precise manner using local dimming. One of the most prominent examples of the benefits of local dimming is how such a TV can make the black bars in letterboxed content look as dark as what's achieved by plasma panels.

A few weeks ago, before I picked up my new plasma TV, I repainted my studio with a neutral gray shade. I happened to have a bunch of blue painter's tape, which is designed for easy removal. I was re-watching Pulp Fiction with my wife Danya, and I couldn't get over how distracting the edgelit pseudo-local dimming was. Out of frustration, I applied painter's tape over the letterbox bars. I was amazed at how much this improved the entire viewing experience. The main problem was when the lights came up—blue painter's tape looks silly on a TV screen. It's also not practical or economical to tape up a TV every time you want to watch a letterboxed movie. I realized that if I wanted to write about this topic, I'd need to find a way to mask the bars with ease. Whatever I did also had to look okay with the lights on. More importantly, it had to be as easy as possible, and cheap.

I found the solution in the form of a 40 x 60-inch piece of black foam board that I bought at an art-supply store. I put a letterboxed movie up on the screen and took careful measurements of the black bars—on my 55-inch Vizio; each bar measured 3.5 x 48 inches. Using a ruler and a box cutter, I cut two strips to the measured size and attached them to my TV using black gaffer's tape. The tape acts as a hinge of sorts, making it easy to flip open the masks to expose the entire screen. It was one of the cheapest and easiest mods I've ever performed, and the difference it makes in terms of the dark-room viewing experience is dramatic. With many LED-edgelit TVs, it's the only way to achieve plasma-like (and, in fact, OLED-like) black in the letterbox bars—the foam board is entirely opaque, and in a dark room, it is completely invisible.


Here's the $10, 40" x 60" piece of foam board I used



I taped the ruler to the foamboard using painters tape, so it would stay in place for an accurate cut

When I took the THX Video Calibration Class last February, one of the things I learned is the importance of screen masking for front-projection rigs. A black border improves the perception of contrast, and the same principal works when applied to TVs. With LCD-edgelit TVs, there is an added benefit—masking the black bars hides the machinations of the local-dimming mechanism, which bleed into the letterbox region, resulting in a distracting fluctuation in their brightness.

Some of the latest edgelit LCDs have the ability turn off the zones in the letterbox region, and I know that backlit arrays with local dimming often offer that option as well. However, there are many edgelit LCDs (and CCFL-lit LCDS as well) that can benefit from masking when watching widescreen (2.40:1 aspect ratio) content. For those TVs, finding a safe, convenient way to mask the letterbox bars can significantly improve the viewing experience in a darkened room. It may be a bit MacGyver-ish, but if it works, why not at least try it?

Here are some photos that show the effectiveness of physically masking the letterbox bars on my edgelit Vizio M3D550KD:



For 16:9 content, I flip open the foam board masking to reveal the whole screen



With lights on, the masking offers no real benefit and the foam board is visible. I'm sure it could be improved.



Without masking, in a dark room, the letterbox bars are clearly visible and rather distracting



With masking, the letterbox bars are pitch black in a darkened room



Here's the same image displayed on my Samsung F5300 plasma. No masking required.


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Why not just use a bias light instead? It can be pretty effective at reducing black levels....like really effective
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post #141 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by THX1720 View Post
There's no metadata. I'm sure a player could tell a TV to do something through HDMI CEC but it's not based on the content. You could turn that off... You don't need to change your tv settings for the type of content. Those are arbitrary presets that mean nothing.

It is quite obvious there is no broadcast stream when you use a Bluray player. Regardless, a Sony Bluray player will change the scene mode to Cinema. Why anyone would turn off CEC is beyond me. It is much easier to set the scene mode in the TV to another mode if that was desirable (and it is not).

Your comments are based on you uneducated opinion. Sure, Sony has their engineers spend thousands and thousands of hours and millions of Yen to develop these products, and a low post count internet poster who has absolutely no first hand knowledge of the TV or the options available in each scene mode says the presets mean nothing.

How does the sports setting get selected for off air football games and similar sports events? Magic, Imagic or other?
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post #142 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 08:12 AM
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Why not just use a bias light instead? It can be pretty effective at reducing black levels....like really effective

That will be the next article that Imagic writes!
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post #143 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by music_to_my_ear View Post
Why not just use a bias light instead? It can be pretty effective at reducing black levels....like really effective
If you don't mind not quoting the whole article including images, I'm sure readers would appreciate it. Thanks.

I have used a bias light, and will continue to do so. That said, physical masking would work for any TV short of an OLED, if the room was dark enough. I don't just deal with one TV or one viewing environment.
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post #144 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
They are not. They are closer to 7500K. You can just use 81A gel filter to make it closer to 6500, but instead I keep it as is but cover them with wax paper so the light is more diffused and more dim too. YMMV.
Where does one purchase this? Curious to try that on one of my LED strip sets. Oh, it's photography stuff… Looks a bit of a messy DIY if one was to get many packets.

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post #145 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
It is quite obvious there is no broadcast stream when you use a Bluray player. Regardless, a Sony Bluray player will change the scene mode to Cinema. Why anyone would turn off CEC is beyond me. It is much easier to set the scene mode in the TV to another mode if that was desirable (and it is not).

Your comments are based on you uneducated opinion. Sure, Sony has their engineers spend thousands and thousands of hours and millions of Yen to develop these products, and a low post count internet poster who has absolutely no first hand knowledge of the TV or the options available in each scene mode says the presets mean nothing.

How does the sports setting get selected for off air football games and similar sports events? Magic, Imagic or other?
I have never heard of such a thing, do you have a reference or manual that discusses this? I don't see the need, calibrated is calibrated and should not depend on content.
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post #146 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 08:55 AM
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Discuss your arguments without making personal attacks. Thx

And please don't troll every comment or you will be removed.

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post #147 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by THX1720 View Post
So I ask, why would you use another screen mode than the one the calibration was performed on?
I've been watching my ISF calibrated led (Samsung UN55B7000) for about four years. It was calibrated under the 'Standard' setting (not that that matters). It is in a basement, with a few small windows. The only time I ever use another screen mode is when I stream recorded TV shows from my HTPC running WMC upstairs to my Xbox 360 downstairs because for some reason the picture shows up much darker (I'm guessing whatever compression they're using). Even then, I just copied the settings from my calibrated, 'Standard' scene mode, over to the 'Natural' scene mode and then just bumped up the brightness a few notches.

Color is color..it's either accurate, or it isn't. When one has seen a green football field or fairway, or the ice during a hockey game, on a calibrated TV then one will understand why calibration is so important.
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post #148 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 12:54 PM
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Question for you? Would you really put cardboard on you TV and watch it.
Hey everyone...with all due respect, Mark suggested black foamboard here. Leave poor ol' cardboard out of it, he hasn't hurt anyone. Well except for cardboard papercuts...man those suck!
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post #149 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 12:59 PM
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Off-topic posts removed. As warned, some members have lost posting privileges in this thread.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #150 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 01:01 PM
 
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Could care less really. Just having fun.. You are wound way too tight big boy.. Chill out.
Not at all. Unlike you, I couldn't care less. I was just responding to your inquiry. If trying to be annoying is your idea of having fun, well, who am I to say otherwise? Go be annoying and enjoy yourself.
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