Masking Your Edgelit LCD TV for Better Blacks - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
I have never heard of such a thing, do you have a reference or manual that discusses this? I don't see the need, calibrated is calibrated and should not depend on content.

There is really no documentation anywhere on most of the settings in the 55NX720. You have to use the TV, play around with settings, and learn the hard way.

Calibrated is indeed calibrated. However, that is perhaps maybe three categories of settings that were adjusted by Cnet. As noted by Cnet, the calibrated settings only work in a dark room and even then the screen looks "dim".

There are 24 line items in each scene mode (not screen mode). Cnet did a very small touchup to the white balance, but turned down the backlight to just above minimum (1) and increased the contrast to MAX. In addition, pretty much all of the other line items were set to OFF. Even the room brightness sensor was set to OFF.

sony-kdl-55nx720-picture-settings-list here!

Like people say, if its calibrated its calibrated. However, once you (post calibration) change settings like backlight and brightness to compensate for "dark content" or for use in a bright room, the calibration is no longer in effect.

Those Cnet settings on my TV do not work in a bright room (per my observations and per Cnet). So how valid is any calibration if you have to change settings after calibration? I though calibrated is calibrated?

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post #152 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post


Here's the $10, 40" x 60" piece of foam board I used



I taped the ruler to the foamboard using painters tape, so it would stay in place for an accurate cut

I have a question. How representative to real colors are the pictures that you are posting?

How black is that foam board in real life?

Your TV screen does not look to be black either when turned off like in the picture above.

How much of what we see here is an optical illusion?


What color is that rug? It looks one color on my older Windows XP Sony Trinitron based CRT monitor, and a different color on my newer Windows 8.1 laptop LCD. Then again, there is an anti glare coating on my CRT screen, and a clear non tinted glossy screen on my LCD laptop screen.

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post #153 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Like people say, if its calibrated its calibrated. However, once you (post calibration) change settings like backlight and brightness to compensate for "dark content" or for use in a bright room, the calibration is no longer in effect.

Those Cnet settings on my TV do not work in a bright room (per my observations and per Cnet). So how valid is any calibration if you have to change settings after calibration? I though calibrated is calibrated?

Maybe I should have been clearer in my earlier post...

My TV was calibrated on the 'Standard' scene setting, and is where I leave my settings maybe 80% - 90% of the time. The occasional time I need to stream on my Xbox, I simply switch to the other setting. When I switch back to 'Standard', the calibrated settings are still in place. That was just the simplest solution for that specific application. I guess another way of looking at it is that I wouldn't perfer a 'non-calibrated' TV for something I do 10% of the time.

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post #154 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
There is really no documentation anywhere on most of the settings in the 55NX720. You have to use the TV, play around with settings, and learn the hard way.

Calibrated is indeed calibrated. However, that is perhaps maybe three categories of settings that were adjusted by Cnet. As noted by Cnet, the calibrated settings only work in a dark room and even then the screen looks "dim".

There are 24 line items in each scene mode (not screen mode). Cnet did a very small touchup to the white balance, but turned down the backlight to just above minimum (1) and increased the contrast to MAX. In addition, pretty much all of the other line items were set to OFF. Even the room brightness sensor was set to OFF.

sony-kdl-55nx720-picture-settings-list here!

Like people say, if its calibrated its calibrated. However, once you (post calibration) change settings like backlight and brightness to compensate for "dark content" or for use in a bright room, the calibration is no longer in effect.

Those Cnet settings on my TV do not work in a bright room (per my observations and per Cnet). So how valid is any calibration if you have to change settings after calibration? I though calibrated is calibrated?
I don't see anything outside the normal with all those settings available, looks pretty typical. Part of the calibration includes the environment you view in. You change that, you need to change the calibration. But grayscale, color, sharpness, etc...most all settings don't need to be changed. Brightness and contrast maybe but most of the time you just need to adjust the backlight for more output in a brighter room. Or like you said turn on the ambient light sensor to try and have the TV do it for you. That is also why many new displays have a Calibrated Light and Calibrated Dark picture mode.
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post #155 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
I don't see anything outside the normal with all those settings available, looks pretty typical. Part of the calibration includes the environment you view in. You change that, you need to change the calibration. But grayscale, color, sharpness, etc...most all settings don't need to be changed. Brightness and contrast maybe but most of the time you just need to adjust the backlight for more output in a brighter room. Or like you said turn on the ambient light sensor to try and have the TV do it for you. That is also why many new displays have a Calibrated Light and Calibrated Dark picture mode.
That's 100% correct, thank you for contributing good, accurate information!

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post #156 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
I don't see anything outside the normal with all those settings available, looks pretty typical.



If you think it is typical to disable all of the options in this TV, then why should anyone buy a set like this in the first place? Just buy a $600 TV that has no advanced technology since you guys seem to prefer to disable everything that can be disabled, calibrate the TV, and then walk away saying everything is perfect.


I don't like making a new TV look like the picture you would get a 1980's CRT TV set. That's what I get with the Cnet settings in a dark room. For daytime viewing, forget about it.


It is much simpler to use the factory setting, and let the TV adjust itself for use in a dark room. Like I said previously, white balance was barely touched with that Cnet calibration. If my gray scale was off I would do a touchup, but it is fine as is, dark room or bright room.


Note that I have experimented with each option, so I pretty much know what options enhance the viewing experience.






Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post


Part of the calibration includes the environment you view in. You change that, you need to change the calibration.



So calibrated does not mean calibrated. It requires judgment rather than measurements. How bright white is is relative to room brightness rather than to measured display brightness. It is a judgment call rather than a measurement.




Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Brightness and contrast maybe but most of the time you just need to adjust the backlight for more output in a brighter room. Or like you said turn on the ambient light sensor to try and have the TV do it for you. That is also why many new displays have a Calibrated Light and Calibrated Dark picture mode.



I prefer to not have to adjust anything for use in different ambient room light conditions. Like I said, let the ambient light sensor adjust everything for a dark room (at night in my case).


Just as a note, the scene select modes vary each of the 24 line items in different ways depending on content. The ambient light sensor is not even part of scene select.
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post #157 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 02:39 PM
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You are making the classic "preference over reference" argument. There is a STANDARD that creators of film and what TV owners should strive for. If you're interested in coming as close to what the director intended, that is. That standard also includes brightness levels (although there is some recent debate on that particular level). And to arrive at that standard, there are benchmarks that must be hit, and your eye alone is not going to get you there. They turn off all those "advanced" features because they tend to introduce undesirable effects. Yes, including the light sensor. On my set, the light sensor made the picture look dull and dark. Ymmv, of course. But to poo-poo calibrations and say that only the uneducated get them, while posting in the AV SCIENCE forum? Ok.
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post #158 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cardoski View Post
Actually the subject is masking and I am making the point that even the best display devices can use masking.
The caveat being that OLED renders it wholly unnecessary.
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post #159 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post
You are making the classic "preference over reference" argument. There is a STANDARD that creators of film and what TV owners should strive for. If you're interested in coming as close to what the director intended, that is. That standard also includes brightness levels (although there is some recent debate on that particular level). And to arrive at that standard, there are benchmarks that must be hit, and your eye alone is not going to get you there. They turn off all those "advanced" features because they tend to introduce undesirable effects. Yes, including the light sensor. On my set, the light sensor made the picture look dull and dark. Ymmv, of course. But to poo-poo calibrations and say that only the uneducated get them, while posting in the AV SCIENCE forum? Ok.



As noted in that Cnet article, the Cnet calibration method only applies to a dark room.


If your light sensor makes your picture look dull and dark ,maybe you should get your TV "calibrated" by someone who knows what they are doing. With my light sensor OFF and with Cnet settings, my picture looks dull and dark!




Also note, this is not the AVScience Science forum!

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post #160 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
1. The instruction manual for the 55NX720 says no such thing.

http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-...ls#/manualsTab


2. The so called "professional" calibration that was performed on Cnet tells you the settings that the calibrator ended up with. However, that calibration was performed in the general scene mode (custom). That calibration is not applied when you go to the Cinema modes (not to mention all other scene modes). In addition, most of the useful setup options were disabled.

I could discuss the settings that he used and ended up with, but that would be a complete waste of time.

So I ask, what good is that "professional" calibration when it does not apply to the screen modes that are commonly used?






Click here for the appropriate response!
1) Wrong yet again. Here is the precise link straight from your manual where I originally got the info. Did you even bother to open it and read it, or did you just paste the link? lol.

http://docs.esupport.sony.com/imanua..._uc_hx_ex.html

2) Per CNET: "Among the NX720's numerous picture presets we ended up preferring Cinema for dark-room critical viewing, but it did exhibit dark gamma in the middle areas and a too-bright overall image for dark rooms. Our calibration using Custom improved gamma quite a bit and kept the excellent grayscale."

Regardless, cinema will be closest to REC 709 out of the default modes. This does not mean that he had to calibrate this mode. Once calibrated in custom mode it was in spec.

Now I'm done arguing with you about the false information you are procreating. Who comes on to AVS Forums and says the default settings out of the box are more accurate than a professional calibration anyways? Take a seat, sir!
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post #161 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
If you think it is typical to disable all of the options in this TV, then why should anyone buy a set like this in the first place? Just buy a $600 TV that has no advanced technology since you guys seem to prefer to disable everything that can be disabled, calibrate the TV, and then walk away saying everything is perfect.
My cheapo Vizio has almost all of those same settings so you don't have to pay more to get them. :-)

Just because they are there doesn't mean you have to use them.

As another poster mentioned, you have your preference which is fine. But there is a reference that calibration can attempt to achieve.

I'm still waiting on a link or reference that shows your TV changes settings based on content type.
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post #162 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
My cheapo Vizio has almost all of those same settings so you don't have to pay more to get them. :-)

Just because they are there doesn't mean you have to use them.

As another poster mentioned, you have your preference which is fine. But there is a reference that calibration can attempt to achieve.

I'm still waiting on a link or reference that shows your TV changes settings based on content type.



Are you aware of how insignificant the basic changes in calibration that were made in the Cnet article? White balance for gray scale and colors. All the other changes that were made related to dark room ambient light conditions. For a bright room, Cnet basically says to put everything back where you started (AKA factory settings for brightness, contrast, LED brightness).


Color temperature settings do vary in different scene modes, and that is the most notable setting change that was made in the Cnet calibration over the factory color settings.


Setting the contrast to MAX and LED brightness to MIN, and all automated options to OFF is crazy when automated adjustments handle all of that bright room / dark room / content differences by turning those options on.


You have a long wait for your last item. If you find any documentation on it, let me know.
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post #163 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 03:23 PM
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In Palmer's POV, the 4200+ calibrations I've done in the past 20 years are no more than a work of an idiot. .
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post #164 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 03:30 PM
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Ya, I give up...I'm out.
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post #165 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

I'm still waiting on a link or reference that shows your TV changes settings based on content type.


I suppose that with you extensive knowledge base that you can tell me the purpose of the Automatic Scene Select mode. This was also disabled in the Cnet calibration.
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post #166 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
I suppose that with you extensive knowledge base that you can tell me the purpose of the Automatic Scene Select mode. This was also disabled in the Cnet calibration.
Previously asked and answered. You just didn't like the answer.
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post #167 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Previously asked and answered. You just didn't like the answer.

Well, forward the answer to primetimeguy so he can know the answer to his question!
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post #168 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 06:24 PM
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The caveat being that OLED renders it wholly unnecessary.

If you don't mind tiny displays. Only jking, would love a huge OLED.

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I am solidly in "preference" over "reference" camp but I freely and willingly acknowledge that "reference" standard (or close to it as I can) is the starting point of my adjusting to my preference.

As pointlessly argumentative as J Palmer Cass may be, he does make a good point about Cnet calibration being made in context of dark room and is not for every environment. What I don't understand is if he knew Cnet calibration is for dark room, why did he use it in his bright room environment and complain about it? Of course, Cnet calibration won't look good in his bright room. Isn't it rather obvious that each TV must be calibrated to its environment? It's like he knew wearing shorts in the winter is inappropriate yet he proceed to do exactly that and complaining that it's cold.
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post #170 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 06:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
I'm still waiting on a link or reference that shows your TV changes settings based on content type.
I think my son's Vizio has various picture modes for watching different types of sport like Football, Golf, Basketball and Baseball. Perhaps that's what he's referring to? I have to say those modes are useless.
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post #171 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Apostate View Post
I think my son's Vizio has various picture modes for watching different types of sport like Football, Golf, Basketball and Baseball. Perhaps that's what he's referring to? I have to say those modes are useless.
Correct, many Vizio have those picture modes but he is claiming something different. His TV listens to the Metadata fairy and chooses the scene mode for him.
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post #172 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 06:43 PM
 
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Correct, many Vizio have those picture modes but he is claiming something different. His TV listens to the Metadata fairy and chooses the scene mode for him.
His TV must be a really Smart TV. Metadata? Really?
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Poor imagic. It's a shame that his thread got completely derailed and devolved into crapfest. That'll teach him not to try to be helpful.
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post #174 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 06:51 PM
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I'm waiting for the automated, motorized version.
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post #175 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 08:43 PM
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Did anyone tried this?I did it and it really works.




The movies in the dark on my LCD look a lot better.
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My Samsung has very good blacks it's one of the "old school" CCFL LCD TVS. It pisses me off that manufactures switched to LED.

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post #178 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 10:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
As you know I was talking about my personal TV. You know, the one that does not require masking because it was calibrated properly at the factory!.
Funny thing is I have 6 TV's if you count the garage ,Sammie PDP ,Sony,LG & Toshiba LED/LCD mostly none of them were properly calibrated out of the box and none of the presets were that good .

The one exception being the Sony in Cinema mode that only required screwing up the contrast a lot (picture ) and some addt'l brightness and setting color temp to neutral , + adjusting the gamma Oh and ofc turning off all the ECO/power saving modes and brightness sensor + automatic stuff (motion stuff ,contrast and color enhancers ,clear white and noise reduction etc ) and setting 1:1 pixel mapping ofc. oh and a firmware update before it was right .


I used AVS HD .709 images as a very close starting point as it worked out . Good stuff, being untrained I had to read up on it here a bit and learned some things . Ofc I believe a decent pro calibration couldn't hurt either and I wouldn't discourage one.


Auto modes/sensors are all off on the 5 other sets also they required some (more ) work also .
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post #179 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 11:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Did anyone tried this?I did it and it really works.




The movies in the dark on my LCD look a lot better.
Movies always look better in the dark even more so with good black levels ,ambient lighting usually behind the set can often enhance contrast perception in a drl room .

I watch both ways depending on the content .

Nothing wrong with masking the black bars at night if it makes the picture look better.

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post #180 of 313 Old 06-26-2014, 11:32 PM
 
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Lastly to lighten things up a bit this :

rlindob wrote ,

Quote:
Seriously, where has the masculinity of so many North American men gone? Embarrassing some of the stuff I read around the net from so many so-called men these days. What I find amusing is how so many guys who say stuff like "my wife is letting me get this..." or "my wife wouldn't let me do that..." actually don't see how whipped they are.
re/tubetwiater ,

Real man says to the wife :


" I'm getting this TV ........ you just worry about the kitchen ,grocery shopping ,bathrooms,laundry and bedroom stuff ..Oh and keeping stuff clean around here and the cooking like I told you .... and we will get along just fine ......,.....know what I mean ? "

Last edited by tubetwister; 06-27-2014 at 03:25 AM.
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