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post #211 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 12:21 PM
 
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@J_Palmer_Cass

Well whatever you've done your your TV no offense intended but the picture looks pretty bad even for standard def . No Sony should look like that unless it is broken or out of sorts somehow . You may have a severe red push as is typical of a lot of Sonys if left on their factory pre sets and not corrected . Whatever data you belive it may or may not be using or even if it still exists isn't helping things much .


You shouldn't settle for that kind of picture even on standard def maybe you should call a repairman or a trained certified calibrator and see if you can't get that thing fixed up some and then get back to us .

I read the wiki link on Rovi it contains metadata and other than that some DRM data nothing that would otherwise lead me to believe it does much more than setting metadata as discussed previously and DRM (copyright protection ) data .
I could see where Sony might use or have used that for DRM since it dates back to Beta VCR DRM but nothing regarding picture enhancement.

I still haven't seen any verifiable documentation (even from Sony or any applicable patents other than a channel guide ) to support your arguments (even though I have tried to ) so My position ofc remains the same .
DVD decrypter will strip out Rovi also it's old news so Sony may have discarded it or at least earlier versions .

Here is the Rovi current thing it's just metadata and maybe DRM like it has always been .
and web based media and social engineering .

Quote:
Rovi Video includes local TV listings and channel line-ups for interactive program guides, links to leading OTT content sources, basic facts and descriptive editorial, rich media enhancements like TV and movie trailers, and exciting social media features that deepen consumer engagement.
http://www.rovicorp.com/products-and...ovi-video.html
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post #212 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 01:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
David Susilo is not certified in the area that we are discussing.


Metadata is the correct word.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_program_guide

QUOTE:

Standards for delivery of scheduling information to television-based IPGs vary from application to application, and by country. Older television IPGs like Guide Plus+ relied on analog technology (such as the vertical blanking interval of analog television video signals) to distribute listings data to IPG-enabled consumer receiving equipment. In Europe, the European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI) published standard ETS 300 707 to standardize the delivery of IPG data over digital television broadcast signals. Listings data for IPGs integrated into digital terrestrial television and radio receivers of the present day is typically sent within each station's MPEG transport stream, or alongside it in a special data stream.

The ATSC standard for digital terrestrial television, for instance, uses tables sent in each station's PSIP. These tables are meant to contain program start times and titles along with additional program descriptive metadata. Current time signals are also included for on-screen display purposes, and they are also used to set timers on recording devices.

Devices embedded within modern digital cable and satellite television receivers, on the other hand, customarily rely upon third-party listings metadata aggregators to provide them with their on-screen listings data. Such companies include Tribune TV Data, Gemstar-TV Guide (now Rovi), FYI Television, Inc. in the United States and Europe, TV Media in the United States and Canada, Broadcasting Dataservices in Europe and Dayscript in Latin America, and What's On India Media Pvt. Ltd in India, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, the Middle East and Asia.
Again how does this relate to picture enhancement that was your argument no? .

Are you changing the narrative since it appears you can't verifiably support your original argument ?
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post #213 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
David Susilo is not certified in the area that we are discussing.


Metadata is the correct word.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_program_guide

QUOTE:

Standards for delivery of scheduling information to television-based IPGs vary from application to application, and by country. Older television IPGs like Guide Plus+ relied on analog technology (such as the vertical blanking interval of analog television video signals) to distribute listings data to IPG-enabled consumer receiving equipment. In Europe, the European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI) published standard ETS 300 707 to standardize the delivery of IPG data over digital television broadcast signals. Listings data for IPGs integrated into digital terrestrial television and radio receivers of the present day is typically sent within each station's MPEG transport stream, or alongside it in a special data stream.

The ATSC standard for digital terrestrial television, for instance, uses tables sent in each station's PSIP. These tables are meant to contain program start times and titles along with additional program descriptive metadata. Current time signals are also included for on-screen display purposes, and they are also used to set timers on recording devices.

Devices embedded within modern digital cable and satellite television receivers, on the other hand, customarily rely upon third-party listings metadata aggregators to provide them with their on-screen listings data. Such companies include Tribune TV Data, Gemstar-TV Guide (now Rovi), FYI Television, Inc. in the United States and Europe, TV Media in the United States and Canada, Broadcasting Dataservices in Europe and Dayscript in Latin America, and What's On India Media Pvt. Ltd in India, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, the Middle East and Asia.
How well does this work when you watch a season of TV shows on Blu-Ray? Or Netflix from a PC?

It is a good theory but reality says it does not work.
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post #214 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 01:58 PM
 
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J_Palmer_Cass wrote,

White balance from the factory is set perfect even tough it is user adjustable. Same with gamma.


re/ tubetwister
I can tell you neither were the case on *4 of my 5 sets * and in particular the gamma on the newest Sony .
This is easily verified on many sets by reading numerous published review before and after calibration reports .
TBH I believe the factory adjusted tolerances are intentional in some cases that is common in many industries .

Way back in H.S. ( while studying electronics there for 3 yrs ) in the late 60's I did some bench work and delivery installs for a Magnavox dealer part time.

On or usually before our deliveries it was not uncommon to at least do a grayscale ,picture and focus adj and de gauss although the newer sets by year usually required less correction .



J_Palmer_Cass wrote,

Those automatic scene modes and options for each mode (AKA not global) will change the look of the picture that you made in your calibration routine, rendering your calibration pretty much useless.

RE/tubetwister

Actually the Sonys and most other sets (*4 of my 5 sets * ) will retain calibration and any other settings allowed to be changed at least in each mode where they were changed. Yes if you exit a calibrated mode ofc some settings could change(default) if they in turn were not modified during the calibration or user adjustments but in most instances why would you want to ?

If your Sony won't retain adjusted settings or adjusted calibrations per mode as entered it might have broken firmware OTOH my Toshiba will only retain both user adjustments and calibrations in Custom mode but it will retain them there .You can always restore the defaults (reset ) anyway on almost any set AFAIK.

One could adjust and retain the user settings and any service menu calibrations (if provided ) with a Sony in more than one mode as I have done with my user adjustable settings . That was the original issue I had with mine not knowing this .
also I was able to correct and retain gamma settings in all the modes .

In any event I believe a trained calibrator or enthusiast and equipment can have tremendous merit in a lot of instances .


Without a professional calibration or some kind of aid or test patterns (beyond a THX optimiser )and some effort many might be very surprised to find out what a find what a 100% red or magenta really are supposed to be they are often wrong or exaggerated in the factory presets and auto settings .

Now I know why folks say "don't believe everything you read on the internet "
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post #215 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
J_Palmer_Cass wrote,

White balance from the factory is set perfect even tough it is user adjustable. Same with gamma.


re/ tubetwister
I can tell you neither were the case on *4 of my 5 sets * and in particular the gamma on the newest Sony .
This is easily verified on many sets by reading numerous published review before and after calibration reports .
TBH I believe the factory adjusted tolerances are intentional in some cases that is common in many industries .

Way back in H.S. ( while studying electronics there for 3 yrs ) in the late 60's I did some bench work and delivery installs for a Magnavox dealer part time.

On or usually before our deliveries it was not uncommon to at least do a grayscale ,picture and focus adj and de gauss although the newer sets by year usually required less correction .



J_Palmer_Cass wrote,

Those automatic scene modes and options for each mode (AKA not global) will change the look of the picture that you made in your calibration routine, rendering your calibration pretty much useless.

RE/tubetwister

Actually the Sonys and most other sets (*4 of my 5 sets * ) will retain calibration and any other settings allowed to be changed at least in each mode where they were changed. Yes if you exit a calibrated mode ofc some settings could change(default) if they in turn were not modified during the calibration or user adjustments but in most instances why would you want to ?

If your Sony won't retain adjusted settings or adjusted calibrations per mode as entered it might have broken firmware OTOH my Toshiba will only retain both user adjustments and calibrations in Custom mode but it will retain them there .You can always restore the defaults (reset ) anyway on almost any set AFAIK.

One could adjust and retain the user settings and any service menu calibrations (if provided ) with a Sony in more than one mode as I have done with my user adjustable settings . That was the original issue I had with mine not knowing this .
also I was able to correct and retain gamma settings in all the modes .

In any event I believe a trained calibrator or enthusiast and equipment can have tremendous merit in a lot of instances .


Without a professional calibration or some kind of aid or test patterns (beyond a THX optimiser )and some effort many might be very surprised to find out what a find what a 100% red or magenta really are supposed to be they are often wrong or exaggerated in the factory presets and auto settings .

Now I know why folks say "don't believe everything you read on the internet "

Don't make any assumptions on the picture quality of that TV the way it is setup.

If one is into the evaluation of picture quality, then perhaps one should think about how much bandwidth was allocated to each sub-channel that had that programming on it.

For a hint, the sample main channel is broadcast in 1080-i, and there are 4 additional sub-channels. Do you expect that a sub-channel that is allocated that limited amount of bandwidth will look good regardless of the quality of the master?


As far as scene mode settings are concerned, calibration in one scene mode does not transfer to any other scene mode. You have to do a manual entry of settings in each scene mode, or do a new calibration. However, the calibration is not valid if you select any different options than the calibrator happened to like that day, so what good does it do to transfer settings from the original calibration?

Calibration settings of the scene mode that was calibrated will only transfer to another HDMI input it you tell the TV to do so. That option (AKA "this input" or "all inputs") allows each HDMI connection to be fully calibrated end to end if you are really into calibration.

I watched bit of the world cup soccer today to double check to see if the auto mode changed to sports. It did. That broadcast was video, not film. Shade in the field foreground (green grass), full sunlight in the field background (green grass), and full sunlight in the seats with people with light colored clothing. The sports mode was designed to try and compensate for those terrible video conditions. The other scene modes did not look good including Cinema-1 (AKA the calibrated mode with most options set to OFF).

Now if you calibrate every scene mode to be the same, why have different presets or options? After all, the different preset scene modes that have different options activated are really just "gimmicks"!
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post #216 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
That is not correct.

Cnet is not consistent with their non calibration related option selection on the various Sony calibrations on file over there. They do love backlight settings of 1 and contrast settings set to the MAX. The only thing they really adjust is white balance!
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post #217 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 06:37 PM
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Guys, can we just agree to not responding to Palmer's posts anymore? Clearly he feels that all of us professional calibrators, industry insiders, DIY calibration expert and highly advanced AVS members are inferior to him. No amount of explanation will satisfy him, so just let him do and say whatever heck he wants.
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post #218 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
How well does this work when you watch a season of TV shows on Blu-Ray? Or Netflix from a PC?

It is a good theory but reality says it does not work.

Netfix from a PC? More like Netflix streaming via the TV. Auto select can not be selected for internet content of any type (grayed out in menu). The default is general (AKA no scene mode).

Streaming video from a file stored on a PC does not permit the use of auto select - manual scene select only.

As far as content from a Bluray player is concerned, that is setup as Cinema-1 (AKA the calibrated scene mode) when you first plug the players HDMI cable in. You can change the scene mode manually to whatever scene mode that you prefer, and then you get an on screen note saying the the scene mode has been changed from the previous session.

The way it looks is that the auto scene select mode may only work with the Rovi guide. I have pretty much always had the Rovi guide activated, so I may turn the Rovi guide off and see what happens with only the broadcast program information metadata coming into the TV.
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post #219 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Guys, can we just agree to not responding to Palmer's posts anymore? Clearly he feels that all of us professional calibrators, industry insiders, DIY calibration expert and highly advanced AVS members are inferior to him. No amount of explanation will satisfy him, so just let him do and say whatever heck he wants.

Who represents the TV manufacturer here (any brand at all)?
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post #220 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 09:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Guys, can we just agree to not responding to Palmer's posts anymore? Clearly he feels that all of us professional calibrators, industry insiders, DIY calibration expert and highly advanced AVS members are inferior to him. No amount of explanation will satisfy him, so just let him do and say whatever heck he wants.
Good points but I just hafta make the following post (s) since I actually did and to no avail (due to my own ignorance and technical curiosity ) try to support his unproven arguments that re enforced in this case once again the saying "Don't believe everything you read on the internet "
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post #221 of 313 Old 06-28-2014, 09:26 PM
 
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J_Palmer_Cass wrote,
I watched bit of the world cup soccer today to double check to see if the auto mode changed to sports. It did. The sports mode was designed to try and compensate for those terrible video conditions.

tubetwister wrote,
Sports mode seems awfully close to vivid on my 5 TV's but not quite as garish and useful on occasion and also common to almost every TV on the planet these days in fact my CRT Trinitrons and FD Trinitrons had sports and vivid modes .

J_Palmer_Cass wrote,
I watched bit of the world cup soccer today to double check to see if the auto mode changed to sports. It did. That broadcast was video,That broadcast was video, not film. Shade in the field foreground (green grass), full sunlight in the field background (green grass), and full sunlight in the seats with people with light colored clothing.


tubetwister wrote
Thats not remarkable in itself it's cool and all though but hardly equates to the dynamic changes I thought you were referring to in your original argument in fact the TV can derive that information from the program info (PSIP) or an Embedded ip program guide app or Chroma , motion and other picture data information and call up a change to sport or another mode .

J_Palmer_Cass wrote,
The other scene modes did not look good including Cinema-1 (AKA the calibrated mode with most options set to OFF).


tubetwister wrote,
Try upping the brightness ,back light and contrast in
one or more of the cinema modes most of the published calibrations of Sonys have included this . My suggestion would be max contrast and backlight and 50-55 brightness to start
in Cinema mode it makes a remarkable improvement without altering the CMS values .
A +2 gamma setting might not hurt either contrary to what some would say the sets are not
always adjusted correctly in the pre sets .



In all or some of the 2013 Sony sets .Auto Scene select defaults to Energy Star settings/standard picture mode/neut color temp advanced picture settings remain available in auto mode as well . I believe the Sony video engines are all new for 2014 I haven't played with one much yet


J_Palmer_Cass wrote,

Now if you calibrate every scene mode to be the same, why have different presets or options?
tube twister wrote ,
tubetwister wrote,
I only change change basic and advanced user picture adjustments ( usually off) and gamma if needed (in the allowed modes ) to preference or in some cases HD.709 in each mode . I have set some slight differences but less than the out of box presets but left the Vivid and Sports Modes mostly unaltered .

ofc I'm not a trained calibrator so a discussion of multi mode (serv menu ) CMS calibration is best left to the calibration experts IMO I do not know what the standard practice is
although I believe it is maybe one or two modes for day night in some cases .
In my case I just make a small change of brightness in Cinema mode (after I set it up right ) if going to dark room or ambient back light viewing on my Sony.

OTOH my Sammie PDP is on auto pilot and doesn't need any help in part due to it being an emissive display having good CMS and superior black levels . It did require some user and CMS adjustments initially though .
also it is fine in reasonably controlled daylight dark room viewing is not mandatory at all and with its excellent contrast
it can sometimes seem brighter than some LCD's now and then as long as you are not watching hockey and the ABL kicks in .

OTOH Service menu chroma calibration ( Color management if provided ) should theoretically be the same in all modes to provide accurate color whether the TV in use retains that globally or otherwise they may have to be set in one or more modes.


J_Palmer_Cass wrote,
After all, the different preset scene modes that have different options activated are really just "gimmicks"!

tubetwister wrote,
That seems to be a popular opinion at AVS and other places these days . Nothing wrong with a good video engine Proessors(s) and firmware with th fluff turned off .


J_Palmer_Cass wrote,
As far as scene mode settings are concerned, calibration in one scene mode does not transfer to any other scene mode. You have to do a manual entry of settings in each scene mode, or do a new calibration

tubetwister wrote,
Yes that's exactly what I said earlier in regard to user settings .

J_Palmer_Cass wrote,
Calibration settings of the scene mode that was calibrated will only transfer to another HDMI input


tubetwister wrote,
Never said it would or wouldn't makes sense though .



Auto changing a picture mode (Scene selection) does not equate to dynamic program picture
improvement on the fly as the Sony marketing spec's would like you to believe by their vague description of Auto mode function I think all the TV makers (and a lot of other )marketing copywriters go to the same school in that their mantra is likely :

We must try not to raise the ire of the FTC or any other regulators or the tort lawyers
but we can otherwise try get away with as much as we can by being vague and borderline but not legally misleading ! ☺ ☺



My point being the whole time is :
The argument that you gave and I would take exception with and thus far that you have not been able to support which is how specifically does your TV dynamically improve picture quality from the PSIP data or some other data as you posted and stated earlier I've yet to see any verifiable evidence of that . In all fairness I've made an effort to support your position (original argument ) but can not find any evidence to validate your claims .

Unless ofc you were talking specifically about only simply picture mode scene select switching ?
then perhaps I misunderstood your intent
I've tried to be fair for the most part and only asked for verifiable support of the argument when I couldn't find any but haven't seen it .

ATSC metadata is just that and appears only to contain program metadata and program genre no on the fly dynamic picture CMS information so that does not bolster the original argument. It *may unintentionally support* scene select /mode switching on your TV via genre info and intentionally support VCR/DVR timing and channel /program info display generally also but nothing much beyond that for the consumer from what I can see .

Sony may have used/use Rovi for guide or DMR or both again it seems to date back to Beta VCR with updates ofc .
You probably know HDMI HDCP and DRM serve that function with HDMI devices .

I Believe at least the 2013 and the current model Sony's program guide and maybe some metadata comes from PSN as to where PSN aggregates that from is anybody's guess .

PSN (and by implication )most modern Sony ip enabled TV's and other devices including my PS3 use PSN + XBMC browser code that supports meta data .

So in the end you have been able to observe your TV switching scene modes automatically but you really don't know how it does it but are guessing thats fine if you present it that way lacking verification (that's my argument ) it could just as well be using Chroma ,motion,frame rate or some other components of the video signal.

OTOH it's obviously using HDCP and EDID on some of the devices such as a BD player or PC thats not unusual. Again meta data *may unintentionally support* scene select /mode switching on your TV via genre info it's clever of Sony actually if thats what they are doing and if you like that sort of thing and your picture settings or pre sets and it works reliably .

I'll add again I've owned 3 Sonys including the current one they have always had very good pictures once set up and been very dependable for me . As for LCD sets for my personal viewing or to recommend to a friend they would remain my first choice so far .

OTOH Auto switching would be one of the first things I would disable however If my TV switched modes on it's own other than EDID switching I would be pissed!

The other comments regarding picture calibration IMO are way off base and fly in face of long established and verifiable science .
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post #222 of 313 Old 06-29-2014, 12:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kernmyea View Post
These are basically the same settings I arrived at after using Spears & Munsil's blu-ray on my Sony KDL-46HX701
I believe it ! Sony Cinema Mode once tweaked some is usually pretty good IMO . The Spears and Munsil disk is supposed to be real good excellent DIY choice AFAIK.

I did mine the hard way with AVS HD.709 files they are very good also though you can burn them to a DVD or BD also that could make it easier in some respects ( I might do that I still have the download it takes some reading on the linked page to learn how to use them though but it's all there .

I learned a lot using those files and the AVS info on my 5 sets here short of a pro calibration I think I have them set up real decent .

I wouldn't set a TV up without something like these two and definitely not a THX optimiser . I wish I knew what the pros do and had all that stuff they do but I get by .
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post #223 of 313 Old 06-29-2014, 02:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
I have a question. How representative to real colors are the pictures that you are posting?

How black is that foam board in real life?

Your TV screen does not look to be black either when turned off like in the picture above.

How much of what we see here is an optical illusion?


What color is that rug? It looks one color on my older Windows XP Sony Trinitron based CRT monitor, and a different color on my newer Windows 8.1 laptop LCD. Then again, there is an anti glare coating on my CRT screen, and a clear non tinted glossy screen on my LCD laptop screen.
The craft board is not HD.709 reference black but depending on the room light and reflection can be black or a lighter but not light black and would appear pitch black in a darkened room I can attest to that I have used that on some projects in the past.

From here The rug is most definitely grey (with some black smudges maybe perhaps from the craft board ?)
As viewed on my calibrated 2560 x 1440 PC monitor from a discrete video card
with AMD ATI catalyst 14xx drivers on a modestly hot rodded win 7 x64 desktop PC .

Same colors on My Sony LCD TV via 1080p from the same PC.in Cinema mode
the TV allows 7 picture modes via HDMI w/ PC Sony TV EDID .

The TV and PC colors agree here as they should for the most part with the TV only being brighter or more luminous .
due in part to a more transmissive panel .


I'm surprised your Sony Trinitron PC monitor isn't pushing green or yellow or the grid wires aren't showing by now a lot of them did that including mine. I had to replace it in 2003 or so with a Viewsonic CCFL/ LCD monitor it still works fine as a 3rd screen in the studio

I'm surprised also that Sony let anybody else other than the defense industry ,medical, laboratory or manufacturing use Trinitrons without them being in Sony equipment Even the Trinitron monitor I got from Dell was a Sony brand part I guess you never know.

I won't mention anything of PC monitor calibration beyond what I've already mentioned above .

Maybe Mark can better answer your remaining questions though ofc you know any TV or PC monitor
is working by some optical illusion here and there some just do it better than others
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post #224 of 313 Old 06-30-2014, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
You are correct and incorrect at the same time. The descriptor IS metadata, but the descriptor's class grouping (eg: western, advertisement, drama) is considered a flag.

For a test I turned off the Rovi TV Guide and waited for the Rovi Guide Table to run out of data. The Sony Auto Scene Select only works in conjunction with the Rovi Guide. Rovie Guide metadata used to be part of the broadcast stream, but that off-air service was discontinued last year.

The following describes some detail on the problems that discontinued off-air service caused:

http://community.sony.com/t5/Other-P...ort/td-p/37045


Find the word "flag" mentioned in the link below or the video at the bottom. The word "tag" is used a few times. The word metadata is used a million times.

http://cie.acm.org/articles/using-ro...ent-discovery/


Are you ready to raise the white flag?
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post #225 of 313 Old 06-30-2014, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

Auto changing a picture mode (Scene selection) does not equate to dynamic program picture
improvement on the fly as the Sony marketing spec's would like you to believe by their vague description of Auto mode function I think all the TV makers (and a lot of other )marketing copywriters go to the same school in that their mantra is likely :

We must try not to raise the ire of the FTC or any other regulators or the tort lawyers
but we can otherwise try get away with as much as we can by being vague and borderline but not legally misleading ! ☺ ☺


Dynamic picture options are not enabled in all scene modes. They are also not required in all scene modes.

The trouble comes in when a calibrator does not have a clue on how a specific TV works. Some of those calibration "experts" even claim that scene modes are "just a gimmick" (AKA rationalization) without any knowledge of the law of unintended consequences. Calibrate in a randomly selected scene mode, and make no examination of what happens in other scene modes as a result of that calibration. They just put their blinders on and say to themselves "Look at how great a job I did. Give me my check and adios amigo".

Regarding any complaints about a TV, the manufacturer would say "who screwed up the TV, it was not us". The tort lawyer would say, "who screwed up the TV, not my client". The judge decides the case based on the law of unintended consequences, the calibrator did it by accident because he decided that the options in dispute are not needed by anyone on a properly calibrated tv.

I guess one man's expert is another man's hack.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

My point being the whole time is :
The argument that you gave and I would take exception with and thus far that you have not been able to support which is how specifically does your TV dynamically improve picture quality from the PSIP data or some other data as you posted and stated earlier I've yet to see any verifiable evidence of that . In all fairness I've made an effort to support your position (original argument ) but can not find any evidence to validate your claims .

Unless ofc you were talking specifically about only simply picture mode scene select switching ?
then perhaps I misunderstood your intent


The Rovi TV Guide data only provides the user with an on screen TV Guide (AKA TVGOS). Sony takes some of that information and uses it to select the scene mode ONLY IF the scene mode is set to auto select. Otherwise, the user has to select the scene mode.

If the source is a DVD, then the use of dynamic change options (like auto black level and auto contrast) are not required. If your source is a live TV sports event with terrible with second to second variable lighting conditions, the options that allow for dynamic changes work great.




Pretty much anyone can calibrate a PC monitor. No scene modes, and limited adjustments are required to obtain a proper calibration.
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Dark room, or bright room? Automatic controls off or on?

Well, if there is no metadata in a digital broaodcast, then the Sony selects the sports mode by magic. Same thing goes with the use of a Sony Bluray player - Cinema scene mode is selected by magic.

You are also clueless on what changes are made in various scene modes. The differences are caused neither by magic nor by Imagic.
I just wandered into this thread by accident. It is utterly painful to read someone so entirely clueless go on and on. I am no calibration pro but I have a spectro, a colorimeter, ChromaPure and and a Lumagen. I have calibrated my various TVs dozens of times. Calibration is both art and science. So one needs to confirm their measurements with a trained eye as sometimes there are bugs in the TV, tools and process that can give bizarre results. Identifying those issues and working around them is the art part which only experience can provide. I was recently dead wrong about something in the HTPC forum and as soon as it was clear I was wrong I manned up about it instead of tilting at windmills. The calibration tools continue to get better in a process of constant improvement. New TVs have new bugs and often the same old bug and bugaboos. It is astonishing to see you spout about professionals implying magic when you think your TV knows something about the programming content like whether it is a sports program or game.

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What J_Palmer_Cass doesn't seem to understand is that a lot of the clever automation features built into modern TV sets are half-baked, poorly implemented or work at cross purposes to other automation features equally quirky. Synergistically the whole becomes something of a schizophrenic mess and while they are usually intended to improve picture quality conveniently these feature often do the opposite by creating various artifacts and other unintended consequences. A calibrator will disable many of those features, wisely select those that MAY be beneficial and properly set brightness, contrast, grayscale and color gamut. Sony does a fairly good job in general of those parameters in its best picture mode, but each TV is unique to a greater or lesser degree and almost always a competent calibrator can improve on the factory picture for both daytime and night viewing.
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
Dynamic picture options are not enabled in all scene modes. They are also not required in all scene modes.

The trouble comes in when a calibrator does not have a clue on how a specific TV works. Some of those calibration "experts" even claim that scene modes are "just a gimmick" (AKA rationalization) without any knowledge of the law of unintended consequences. Calibrate in a randomly selected scene mode, and make no examination of what happens in other scene modes as a result of that calibration. They just put their blinders on and say to themselves "Look at how great a job I did. Give me my check and adios amigo".

Regarding any complaints about a TV, the manufacturer would say "who screwed up the TV, it was not us". The tort lawyer would say, "who screwed up the TV, not my client". The judge decides the case based on the law of unintended consequences, the calibrator did it by accident because he decided that the options in dispute are not needed by anyone on a properly calibrated tv.

I guess one man's expert is another man's hack.


The Rovi TV Guide data only provides the user with an on screen TV Guide (AKA TVGOS). Sony takes some of that information and uses it to select the scene mode ONLY IF the scene mode is set to auto select. Otherwise, the user has to select the scene mode.

If the source is a DVD, then the use of dynamic change options (like auto black level and auto contrast) are not required. If your source is a live TV sports event with terrible with second to second variable lighting conditions, the options that allow for dynamic changes work great.

Pretty much anyone can calibrate a PC monitor. No scene modes, and limited adjustments are required to obtain a proper calibration.
You are incorrect about calibration, a topic that you should learn more about before leveling the sort of unfounded criticisms you post. You have written much that is incorrect on the topic in my threads. What you suggest regarding calibrating computer monitors is a hack.
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Imagic,

I have to say I'm impressed with the way you handle yourself in threads. I followed your Vizio vs Samsung thread and watched as you were ripped to shreds by certain members questioning your motives and integrity. I can't speak for others, but you have helped me understand the importance of patience and respect for fellow forum members.......keep up the good work and thank you for your posts.

I need to add, as a newbie I naively assumed that members with 1000's of posts under their belt were going to be a wealth of knowledge. After this thread I realized that I was way, way off on my assumption and that certain members have amassed those post numbers by being stubborn, inflammatory, argumentative and rude. I am just grateful that positive members far outweigh negative ones.
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gtgraywrote ,

Quote:
What J_Palmer_Cass doesn't seem to understand is that a lot of the clever automation features built into modern TV sets are half-baked, poorly implemented or work at cross purposes to other automation features equally quirky
Re tubtwister ,

Yes I have a 2013 Sony ,a 2013 LG, and a 2012 Toshiba full of half baked picture modes and automatic functions that I prefer not to use
but rather I have calibrated the sets using HD AVS HD.709 downloaded files to where they all look much better as I have them adjusted with automatic picture enhancements I don't use but have tried notwithstanding. Thankfully I can turn most of that stuff off on my Sammie PDP also .
To discourage anyone from getting a professional calibration or with some study attempting a good DIY effort is absurd


gtgraywrote ,
I just wandered into this thread by accident. It is utterly painful to read someone so entirely clueless go on and on.

Re/tubetwister
Yes Some folks just won't man up and admit they might be wrong !
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post #231 of 313 Old 06-30-2014, 04:08 PM
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I just wandered into this thread by accident. It is utterly painful to read someone so entirely clueless go on and on. I am no calibration pro but I have a spectro, a colorimeter, ChromaPure and and a Lumagen. I have calibrated my various TVs dozens of times. Calibration is both art and science. So one needs to confirm their measurements with a trained eye as sometimes there are bugs in the TV, tools and process that can give bizarre results. Identifying those issues and working around them is the art part which only experience can provide. I was recently dead wrong about something in the HTPC forum and as soon as it was clear I was wrong I manned up about it instead of tilting at windmills. The calibration tools continue to get better in a process of constant improvement. New TVs have new bugs and often the same old bug and bugaboos. It is astonishing to see you spout about professionals implying magic when you think your TV knows something about the programming content like whether it is a sports program or game.

Do you understand what TVGOS is?

Let's see how the "professionals" that you refer to can make a DVR work properly without TVGOS?

http://community.sony.com/t5/Other-P...ort/td-p/37045
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post #232 of 313 Old 06-30-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gtgray View Post
What J_Palmer_Cass doesn't seem to understand is that a lot of the clever automation features built into modern TV sets are half-baked, poorly implemented or work at cross purposes to other automation features equally quirky. Synergistically the whole becomes something of a schizophrenic mess and while they are usually intended to improve picture quality conveniently these feature often do the opposite by creating various artifacts and other unintended consequences. A calibrator will disable many of those features, wisely select those that MAY be beneficial and properly set brightness, contrast, grayscale and color gamut. Sony does a fairly good job in general of those parameters in its best picture mode, but each TV is unique to a greater or lesser degree and almost always a competent calibrator can improve on the factory picture for both daytime and night viewing.


I understand all of that. Not really what I was talking about. How does the use of CineMotion or Motionflow affect a calibration in the manner that you described?

What gamma value do you calibrate to assuming that the room is dark at night and bright during the daytime assuming an LED TV is in use?

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...ght-modes.html
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You are incorrect about calibration, a topic that you should learn more about before leveling the sort of unfounded criticisms you post. You have written much that is incorrect on the topic in my threads. What you suggest regarding calibrating computer monitors is a hack.

A PC monitor is easy to calibrate on a relative basis. There is not much there there!
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gtgraywrote ,



Re tubtwister ,

Yes I have a 2013 Sony ,a 2013 LG, and a 2012 Toshiba full of half baked picture modes and automatic functions that I prefer not to use
but rather I have calibrated the sets using HD AVS HD.709 downloaded files to where they all look much better as I have them adjusted automatic picture enhancements I don't use but have tried notwithstanding. Thankfully I can turn most of that stuff off on my Sammie PDP also .
To discourage anyone from getting a professional calibration or with some study attempting a good DIY effort is absurd


gtgraywrote ,
I just wandered into this thread by accident. It is utterly painful to read someone so entirely clueless go on and on.

Re/tubetwister
Yes Some folks just won't man up and admit they might be wrong !

In a previous posting you recommended some settings for the Sony TV. They were terrible suggestions. Cnet recommends a backlight setting of 1, and you recommend a backlight setting of MAX. Like you said in that same posting, you don't know how to calibrate a tv!


Maybe you should review this information.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35322
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Please, no one take the bait. Hold the line!
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My 2013 Sony has a soft picture ,lacks detail ,the colors are skewed some ,and it has a red push in Automatic Mode that also invokes energy star settings whenever you engage it works OTA and on Dish at least that I have tried. I only use HDMI or OTA coax and pretty much DGAS about component it's yesterdays news just like VHS 480i and Beta although I don't mind a good DVD or rip upscaled to 1080p those would be the exceptions . I find even 1080i/720p over component to be a little softer than HDMI . No VGA for TV either I stick to HDMI even when using a PC and TV together

In Auto mode my 2013 Sony kinda looks like the pictures palmer posted earlier (sort of ) albeit somewhat better in HD as opposed to 480i but even accounting for that the softness and red push are similar . Those and similar things are reasons I don't use automatic on this set or my other 4 sets (5 ) if you count the Dynex in the garage
I don't think it has much if any auto stuff on it anyway crappy picture either way that's why it's out there ☺ .

MY 2013 Sony auto setting *may be* similar to the one in Palmers 2012 Sony set I noticed while trying it (again) yesterday it waits for something before you can enable it if you change inputs or it was not left in auto on that input

I don't know what it is waiting for I suspect maybe it's just looking at frames and calling up an algorithm now and then since it does enable the energy star settings that include a brightness sensor and maybe some dynamic contrast either way the picture is still not that great in auto so I don't use it I suspect other than the Rovi program guide palmers TV
does pretty much the same thing lacking any verifiable information otherwise and Palmer really doesn't seem to know a lot about it beyond a Rovi program guide or electronics in general from what I can see .

No Rovi to be seen here in any of the menus on my Sony? so I can not comment on that .
As far as TVGOS goes too bad about the Sony DVR owners being left in the cold nothing
Sony and others haven't done before that's just how it goes now .

Sony is all about PSN these days maybe they can port some data over that way some day
and provide a firmware update for the DVR and or the TV doubtful though the code monkeys (that still have jobs ) at Sony or more accurately the newly created Sony TV owned subsidiary are probably busy with newer TV platforms right now and the PS4 folks are working for the parent company now .

I boxed up my VCR'a years ago so if it's a VCR timing thing it is not applicable for me and besides the Dish DVRs just work like they are supposed to . TBH back then I never saw much beyond some PBS or the occasional documentary worth wasting a blank tape on anyway. I bought the rental return VHS movies instead still have a bunch boxed up in plastic milk crates in the out outbuilding .

Yo ...did anybody tell palmer they have HDTV ,UHDTV (sort of ) and DVR's these days ?

I think its safe to say many here are experts and industry professionals and insiders ( not me ) and some of us are very advanced expert level enthusiasts and some of us are still learning enthusiasts ( Me ) and there are always the newbies just looking for help then some others that are to put it politely whatever ☺☺☺
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J_Palmer_Cass wrote ,

In a previous posting you recommended some settings for the Sony TV. They were terrible suggestions. Cnet recommends a backlight setting of 1, and you recommend a backlight setting of MAX. Like you said in that same posting, you don't know how to calibrate a tv!

re /tubetwisrer

Pitiful when someone changes the narrative multiple times or attacks several other posters when they can't support an argument ?
Like StereoDude feels and rightfully so some posts don't merit free discussion or replies and yet against my better judgement I will make yet another exception



@ J_Palmer_cass ,

You do ofc realise C net calibrates for a dark room ? .....Oh yea now I remember ... you did mention that on more than one occasion when you were poo pooing and dismissing Cnets recommendations and professional calibrations and professional calibrators in general why the sudden change of position ? ........nevermind I think it's painfully obvious to all of us it suits your narrative for the moment .

@ J_Palmer_cass
Have you ever adjusted a (2014 Sony ) or even seen one ? I have more than one

I never claimed to be a pro calibrator trained or otherwise or even an expert just an enthusiast and unlike some people I'm willing to learn something Further I would never discourage anyone from getting a professional calibration .
I would be willing to bet if we put 2 identical sets side by side when I got done the picture on mine would look vastly better anything you ever touched .

Did the poster complain about my suggestions that would be a first ,further do you know if he even tried them ?
maybe he is one of the members that sent me a PM thanks could be there are more than a few just look at the likes vs total posts not hard to figure ?
Can you support your statement that it was a terrible suggestion, remember you usually poo poo Cnets darkroom calibration recommendations in all fairness let's not forget that ! ?

Easy to read stuff,not learn anything and make assumptions and change the narrative when you can't support unfounded arguments isn't it ?
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post #238 of 313 Old 06-30-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
My 2013 Sony has a soft picture ,lacks detail ,the colors are skewed some ,and it has a red push in Automatic Mode that also invokes energy star settings whenever you engage it works OTA and on Dish at least that I have tried. I only use HDMI or OTA coax and pretty much DGAS about component it's yesterdays news just like VHS 480i and Beta although I don't mind a good DVD or rip upscaled to 1080p those would be the exceptions . I find even 1080i/720p over component to be a little softer than HDMI . No VGA for TV either I stick to HDMI even when using a PC and TV together

In Auto mode my 2013 Sony kinda looks like the pictures palmer posted earlier (sort of ) albeit somewhat better in HD as opposed to 480i but even accounting for that the softness and red push are similar . Those and similar things are reasons I don't use automatic on this set or my other 4 sets (5 ) if you count the Dynex in the garage
I don't think it has much if any auto stuff on it anyway crappy picture either way that's why it's out there ☺ .

MY 2013 Sony auto setting *may be* similar to the one in Palmers 2012 Sony set I noticed while trying it (again) yesterday it waits for something before you can enable it if you change inputs or it was not left in auto on that input

I don't know what it is waiting for I suspect maybe it's just looking at frames and calling up an algorithm now and then since it does enable the energy star settings that include a brightness sensor and maybe some dynamic contrast either way the picture is still not that great in auto so I don't use it I suspect other than the Rovi program guide palmers TV
does pretty much the same thing lacking any verifiable information otherwise and Palmer really doesn't seem to know a lot about it beyond a Rovi program guide or electronics in general from what I can see .

No Rovi to be seen here in any of the menus on my Sony? so I can not comment on that .
As far as TVGOS goes too bad about the Sony DVR owners being left in the cold nothing
Sony and others haven't done before that's just how it goes now .

Sony is all about PSN these days maybe they can port some data over that way some day
and provide a firmware update for the DVR and or the TV doubtful though the code monkeys (that still have jobs ) at Sony or more accurately the newly created Sony TV owned subsidiary are probably busy with newer TV platforms right now and the PS4 folks are working for the parent company now .

I boxed up my VCR'a years ago so if it's a VCR timing thing it is not applicable for me and besides the Dish DVRs just work like they are supposed to . TBH back then I never saw much beyond some PBS or the occasional documentary worth wasting a blank tape on anyway. I bought the rental return VHS movies instead still have a bunch boxed up in plasyic milk crates the out outbuilding .

Yo ...did anybody tell palmer they have HDTV ,UHDTV (sort of ) and DVR's these days ?

I think its safe to say many here are experts and industry professionals and insiders ( not me ) and some of us are very advanced expert level enthusiasts and some of us are still learning enthusiasts ( Me ) and there are always the newbies just looking for help then some others that are to put it politely whatever ☺☺☺

A lot of babble there. Betamax?

Maybe you missed it, but Rovi discontinued their over the air Rovi TV Guide (AKA TVGOS) in 2012, with equipment being removed from all local TV broadcast stations by April 2013. Why would Sony continue to integrate a Rovi service in new TV sets when that Rovi service is no longer available off air? The Rovi Guide still works fine with an internet connection, but then you need to have an internet capable TV with the correct version of Rovi. The Rovi Guide does not work with a cable box connected to the TV either.

Let me see, Rovi service starts with Sony in 2011. Rovi TVGOS on air service ends in 2012. Kind of a short window for Sony to put this service in their TV sets. I did not realize that time frame was so short.

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=30180

http://www.jillcataldo.com/node/25345
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Nobody much cares about Rovi anyway that was not the thread topic and anyone still watching Betamax should probably be on an AARP or antique radio and TV forum anyway yes it's that old !

IOW Rovie at best in Sony TV's was Metadata maybe for a program guide and maybe some flags for device timing .
PSN is Sonys data server of choice now regardless of where the data originates . noooo picture fairies !
No Rovie in my 2013 Sony either no Rovie program guide here never was Rovi/Sony is dead and gone AFAIK nobody cares .My sets auto mode works as intended anyway without an ip connection that further proves my point


Palmer wrote , Kind of a short window for Sony to put this service in their TV sets

Re/ TT Wouldn't be the first bad move Sony has made in the last 20 yrs they will be a case study of what not to do
for years to come when they are out of the TV and consumer electronics business altogether and are just selling music ,entertainment,film and other content along with PS 10's maybe , + the cash cows their Insurance and financial services .
They are recently investing in the medical equipment business but Toshiba and GE and to much lesser extent Sharp and some others already own that business . Duesenberg and Packard made excellent cars ....a long time ago
ever driven a 56 Packard Clipper , I have in the late 60's pretty good car in it's day compared to other cars of the mid 50's .


I hate yo say it but there is a strong business case as well as sentiment on the Sony board of Directors to completely
abandon the consumer electronics business altogether while they still can without piling further losses .

Like I said your set in Automatic mode is probably looking at frames and maybe making some on the fly changes with that information (the algorithms should not be at all difficult ) rather than using Rovie or some other non existant data fairy. TV's have been doing that for decades in the analog and later digital realm realm (just like my 2014 Sony does digitally in auto ) . IC's , (ASIC) and later(ASIC + CPU's ) of one kind or another have been used in TV's for decades '


That was your original argument that you thus far can not support what's up with that? This thread was never about Rovi or magic picture data fairies either until you hi jacked it with your picture data fairy nonsense and anti calibration ranting and got called out even though I looked up some stuff up and tried to see if your original argument could be supported .... it can't and this is the thanks I get ? ........... no thanks !

When you get at least a rudimentary understanding of electronics maybe you could submit something useful to the discussion(s) or at least relevant to the OP thread topic .
FCS man up and admit you're wrong !

I much prefer ROKU's latest XBMC browser to Sony's latest TV version anyway so other than an occasional firmware check as far as I'm concerned if you have a newer Roku turning the wifi off on a Sony or most other TV's can't hurt
Why Would I need Rovi it does nothing for the picture quality and Dish has their own program guide .
OTA TV other than a few PBS shows and ball games for the most isn't much worth watching
I can browse 200+ channels on Dish and maybe find 10 or 15 worth watching and thats on a good day .


I have one other question though .... did anyone ever ask you when you were younger to go into your room and leave the conversation to the adults !
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post #240 of 313 Old 06-30-2014, 07:55 PM
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re /tubetwisrer

Pitiful when someone changes the narrative multiple times or attacks several other posters when they can't support an argument ?
Like StereoDude feels and rightfully so some posts don't merit free discussion or replies and yet against my better judgement I will make yet another exception



@ J_Palmer_cass ,

You do ofc realise ofc C net calibrates for a dark room ? .....Oh yea now I remember ... you did mention that on more than one occasion when you were poo pooing and dismissing Cnets recommendations and professional calibrations and professional calibrators in general why the sudden change of position ? ........nevermind I think it's painfully obvious to all of us it suits your narrative for the moment .

@ J_Palmer_cass
Have you ever adjusted a (2014 Sony ) or even seen one ? I have more than one

I never claimed to be a pro calibrator trained or otherwise or even an expert just an enthusiast and unlike some people willing to learn something Further I would never discourage anyone from getting a professional calibration .
I would be willing to bet if we put 2 identical sets side by side when I got done the picture on mine would look vastly better anything you ever touched .

Did the poster complain about my suggestions that would be a first ,further do you know if he even tried them ?
maybe he is one of the members that sent me a PM thanks could be there are more than a few just look at the likes vs total posts not hard to figure ?
Can you support your statement that it was a terrible suggestion, remember you usually poo poo Cnets darkroom calibration recommendations in all fairness let's not forget that ! ?

Easy to read stuff,not learn anything and make assumptions and change the narrative when you can't support unfounded arguments isn't it ?


Yes, the Cnet calibration was performed in a dark room. When the calibrator was asked what to do when the room was bright (AKA during daytime), he said disregard the dark room calibration and adjust the TV so it looks brighter. So is the TV still calibrated when you dick with settings after calibration?

I prefer to let the TV adjust itself for changes in ambient room lighting.

In addition, if you calibrate that TV Cnet style from the general custom mode, all the other scene modes are modified in ways that are unknown to anyone unless you write them all the settings down for pre-calibration documentation. It would take a good 8 hours of work to do that documentation.

The only change Cnet made to the custom setup for calibration purposes was to activate the LED dynamic control (plus standard calibration required changes to white balance). All other settings were left as is except for the change from "this" input to "all" inputs.



Today I just noticed another peculiarity in my TV aside from the fact that my specific TV does in fact change scene modes based on Rovi data if the scene mode is left in auto scene mode.

If I select the Cinema mode (Cinema -1 subset) to watch a movie on broadcast TV, there is one set of settings used by the TV in Cinema-1. If I watch a DVD or Bluray in my Sony Bluray player, the Cinema-1 settings change without user intervention. You can change the settings, but if you power down the player and start the Bluray player again the Cinema-1 settings return to the Bluray player defined settings.




Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post

I would be willing to bet if we put 2 identical sets side by side when I got done the picture on mine would look vastly better anything you ever touched .

You would willing to make a bet without knowing the qualifications and experience of the person you are betting against? Funny stuff!
J_Palmer_Cass is offline  
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