Vizio R Series Speculation and Release Date - Page 44 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1291 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
^^^ 3. Vizio releases the P series and says "sorry, but the R series will take another year."
That is actually hilarious. It would be disastrous for Vizio but hilarious none the less.
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post #1292 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 10:16 AM
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Fantasy

As long as we are dealing in fantasy, here is my 120" R Series pricing prediction.

Sold direct only.

The price is $1.00

Shipping and installation is $39,999.
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post #1293 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
R series should be 12....remember it's not only the panel but the processing.
I pointed out above that the current figure on Vizio's web site implies 10 bit color for the R series, not 12 bit color.
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post #1294 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RDHolmes View Post
As long as we are dealing in fantasy, here is my 120" R Series pricing prediction.

Sold direct only.

The price is $1.00

Shipping and installation is $39,999.
I'll Pick it up

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post #1295 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I pointed out above that the current figure on Vizio's web site implies 10 bit color for the R series, not 12 bit color.
And yet no one even believes their current TVs can do 10 bit color even though they make the exact same claims for those TVs.
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post #1296 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 01:21 PM
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Question

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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
It means they use a panel that is capable of 10bit, but the processing they use doesn't support 10bit end to end. Just because you have a display panels that does 10 bit doesn't mean your display is 10bit capable. This was discussed some in the 2015 P series thread very early on.


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I know it was discussed. However, was it ever proven to be true?
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post #1297 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I know it was discussed. However, was it ever proven to be true?

I believe Scott W asked Vizio during the 2014 CES and got the information directly from them (8 bit processing). It was a long time ago however.


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post #1298 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
I believe Scott W asked Vizio during the 2014 CES and got the information directly from them (8 bit processing). It was a long time ago however.


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Thanks for that info.
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post #1299 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
And yet no one even believes their current TVs can do 10 bit color even though they make the exact same claims for those TVs.

The vizio rep last week said that in the waiting time since 2014 ces, some of the tvs features were greatly improved upon in that time. It's a guessing game what has changed since then. Panel bits? Peak nits? Operating system?
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post #1300 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
The thing that worries me the most is now the 65" is "Special Order" also. That is not a good sign for something that we expected to be a mass consumer product with a great price. That $3995 is starting to look a little doubtful. More like $4995.
I do not see this as a problem at the moment... We have to wait until the first week of October before we know all the details on how to get this extra special 65" Vizio R TV home.
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post #1301 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 05:47 PM
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I do not see this as a problem at the moment... We have to wait until the first week of October before we know all the details on how to get this extra special 65" Vizio R TV home.

^^ this and Vizio is notorious for copying and pasting code from one entry to another, especially pre launch.


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Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
I pointed out above that the current figure on Vizio's web site implies 10 bit color for the R series, not 12 bit color.
Dolby Vision requires 12-bits, so I would assume 10-bit panel + FRC would be used to achieve that.
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post #1303 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post

Dolby Vision requires 12-bits, so I would assume 10-bit panel + FRC would be used to achieve that.
If it did I'd think they would advertise it as more than 1billon colors. The thing that gets really weird with these local dimming sets is the local dimming is basically adding more bit depth just not as accurate mind you.
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post #1304 of 2656 Old 08-31-2015, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kdog750 View Post
I know what you are saying. I just feel (speculation) strongly that they never intended to ever mass produce this set or any other set of this size. There's no financial risk involved in a build to order TV. They can't overproduce that way. They also really can't make any real money doing that but I have always felt the 120" was just a bragging rights TV. They needed something spectacular to break the stereotype they were locked in to.

My Sharp Elite was an example of a very high quality set that was mass produced. But Sharp paid the price for that approach and lost their collective butts on it.
I'm sure you're correct. It's a bragging rights product. I was just speculating on what could change down the road. And if anyone would contemplate that future, it's Vizio.

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Really? I would have thought that odd expensive jobs like this would be relegated to the mother ship for sale, by passing any and all issues of non-qualified returns via vendors. So much can go wrong with something that size and weight----I can't imagine they'd want yet another player in the middle.
That may be true. It will depend, I suppose, on whether they even want to sell hundreds of them. People won't even know it exists unless installers/channel guys can sell it. And those guys -- who move videowalls and high-end projectors -- could move these TVs.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #1305 of 2656 Old 09-01-2015, 09:26 AM
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On website, 65 inch reference series now has a Special Order tab that I don't remember seeing before. When clicked, it has area to input personal information:

http://www.vizio.com/reference-series-65-order

This personal info looks just like what I filled out several months ago to get more information. I went ahead and filled out the information again, will post discussion if they call me. Not holding my breath.
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@avdoc we just discussed this a day or so ago it's been there for more than a week I believe. Some have already received a response, but of course no hard information as of yet.


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Originally Posted by avdoc View Post
On website, 65 inch reference series now has a Special Order tab that I don't remember seeing before. When clicked, it has area to input personal information:

http://www.vizio.com/reference-series-65-order

This personal info looks just like what I filled out several months ago to get more information. I went ahead and filled out the information again, will post discussion if they call me. Not holding my breath.
That's what worries me. Special Order does not usually scream cheap and mass produced. I can understand on the 120" just because of the logistics of making and shipping it, but the 65" is relatively known product. The only thing that maybe holding them up is the complexity of the 384 local dimming control boards.
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post #1308 of 2656 Old 09-01-2015, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
That's what worries me. Special Order does not usually scream cheap and mass produced. I can understand on the 120" just because of the logistics of making and shipping it, but the 65" is relatively known product. The only thing that maybe holding them up is the complexity of the 384 local dimming control boards.

I would t worry at all. Vizio often copies and pastes pre release and then fixes it as they get closer to actual release date. That's why people often find inaccuracies in model pages (copy and paste).


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post #1309 of 2656 Old 09-01-2015, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
That's what worries me. Special Order does not usually scream cheap and mass produced.
I am also worried. Maybe Vizio will only sell the R series directly and the new P will be the mass-market HDR capable display to be used with Dolby Vision?
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post #1310 of 2656 Old 09-01-2015, 12:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
That may be true. It will depend, I suppose, on whether they even want to sell hundreds of them. People won't even know it exists unless installers/channel guys can sell it. And those guys -- who move videowalls and high-end projectors -- could move these TVs.
300 pounds though. Jeepers. It reminds me of the weight of a 36" CRT. Remember those? It's amazing more folks didn't end up killing themselves trying to move them around.
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post #1311 of 2656 Old 09-01-2015, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
That's what worries me. Special Order does not usually scream cheap and mass produced. I can understand on the 120" just because of the logistics of making and shipping it, but the 65" is relatively known product. The only thing that maybe holding them up is the complexity of the 384 local dimming control boards.
It doesn't feel hard to me at all to make a controller for this. It's a 384-pixel display.

The wiring of the LEDs is different on a locally-dimmed display than an old-school full array in that you need to address each zone directly with a "dimmer circuit" but the actual control part for this is pretty simplistic. Are the algorithms challenging? I'd say, "Not especially for a company that is already making displays with far fewer zones."

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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A made to order 65" would make no sense at all. It's either a mistake, or they changed their minds about releasing the R series but are doing this just to save face. Generating this much hype about the R series then canning it completely would backfire pretty hard. But even so, a non mass produced 65" would be priced so out of line with the other competing sets that there would be virtually zero sales. Probably less than for the 120".

And even though they haven't announced a P series, that would make no sense not to have one. They are in a business venture with VUDU for the HDR capabilities. There is no way VUDU would accept that partnership with Vizio if the only sets they had to showcase the new tech was through two obscenely priced made to order TV's.
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A made to order 65" would make no sense at all. It's either a mistake, or they changed their minds about releasing the R series but are doing this just to save face. Generating this much hype about the R series then canning it completely would backfire pretty hard. But even so, a non mass produced 65" would be priced so out of line with the other competing sets that there would be virtually zero sales. Probably less than for the 120".

And even though they haven't announced a P series, that would make no sense not to have one. They are in a business venture with VUDU for the HDR capabilities. There is no way VUDU would accept that partnership with Vizio if the only sets they had to showcase the new tech was through two obscenely priced made to order TV's.
Maybe the 2015 P Series turned out so good, they are worried about how to justify the Reference Series price premium. We have seen the Sony X940C do better with less zone than others, proving zone control to be more important than actual number. In a perfect world, we would have both or at least an affordable 65" flat 4K OLED with less problems.
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
Maybe the 2015 P Series turned out so good, they are worried about how to justify the Reference Series price premium. We have seen the Sony X940C do better with less zone than others, proving zone control to be more important than actual number. In a perfect world, we would have both or at least an affordable 65" flat 4K OLED with less problems.
I hope the 2015 P turns out to be as good as the x940c because I cant afford the 75 inch sony. 65 P should be in my ballpark
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post #1315 of 2656 Old 09-01-2015, 01:57 PM
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Special Order

How about Vizio using the Special Order Button to get a guage on potential interest and possible demand?
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post #1316 of 2656 Old 09-01-2015, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by RDHolmes View Post
How about Vizio using the Special Order Button to get a guage on potential interest and possible demand?
I doubt that would be a good gauge on potential interest. If they are going to mass produce, then they will be aiming at a population that probably are not audio/video enthusiasts and have never visited this forum. Their target market will be people wandering into your local best buy and seeing a demo. Then telling the sales associate "I want that TV right there". They won't know anything about FALD or LCD or OLED and may not even know the manufacturer. There will be a very small percentage going to the Vizio website and filling out a form.
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post #1317 of 2656 Old 09-01-2015, 06:12 PM
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With the IPO looming and the Rseries being part of their product lineup in their disclosures and key to brand growth, there's definitely more to how they handle launching (or not) the R series. A special order button and a couple of product sales goes a long way towards being able to solidify the defendability of those disclosures.
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post #1318 of 2656 Old 09-01-2015, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
You do realize that Vizio is going IPO around the same time as the R-series launch next month, right? When you are going IPO you aren’t allotted the liberty to “spring it on the marketplace”. The drawback of going IPO is that you have to disclose a lot of information that you would have otherwise been able to keep under wraps.

Vizio has been forthright and open about the R-series specifications for almost 2 years now. They have publicly spelled out every single feature that the Vizio R-series will have in writing right from the start. There has been absolutely nothing hidden about it and they are advertising for it extensively now.

There has been absolutely zero information about a 2015 P-series. None whatsoever. Not any claims. Not any prices. Not a single shred of evidence about its existence at all.
You do realize that the P-series model of TV's is already part of Vizio's current and on-going line-up, right? They don't have to say "peep" regarding tweeks to a current model until marketing sees fit to do so. That falls under speculation and most likely considered a given by most prospective investors.

It is however to their advantage to spell out the specs of the R-series as it will soon be a new addition to their product offerings.

With all that said, the Vizio IPO has FAR less to do with the minutiae of techinical specs of current or future model lines offered (with the exception of the posted sales numbers of those models) and a WHOLE LOT more to do with convincing investors they can capitalize on monetizing consumers viewing habits/patterns through the implementation of its "Inscape" data service...

This investment model Vizio is pitching to investors has little to with model lines (and even less to do with their specs or the scant profits they are realizing on their sales). It's all about capitalizing on their roughly 8 million Vizio Connected Units (or "VCU's" as they are calling them) by selling data to advertisers and media content providers.

Have you read their S-1 filing?
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post #1319 of 2656 Old 09-02-2015, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop View Post
You do realize that the P-series model of TV's is already part of Vizio's current and on-going line-up, right? They don't have to say "peep" regarding tweeks to a current model until marketing sees fit to do so. That falls under speculation and most likely considered a given by most prospective investors.

It is however to their advantage to spell out the specs of the R-series as it will soon be a new addition to their product offerings.

With all that said, the Vizio IPO has FAR less to do with the minutiae of techinical specs of current or future model lines offered (with the exception of the posted sales numbers of those models) and a WHOLE LOT more to do with convincing investors they can capitalize on monetizing consumers viewing habits/patterns through the implementation of its "Inscape" data service...

This investment model Vizio is pitching to investors has little to with model lines (and even less to do with their specs or the scant profits they are realizing on their sales). It's all about capitalizing on their roughly 8 million Vizio Connected Units (or "VCU's" as they are calling them) by selling data to advertisers and media content providers.

Have you read their S-1 filing?
I think this is the best point made yet regarding the Vizio business model as it relates to the deployment and capabilities of the R-Series. We must all consider that if Vizio is using the VCU advertising model as a revenue generating business it could in fact be a means to subsidize the hardware. Essentially what I'm trying to say is that traditional methods of gauging the expected cost of the hardware for a TV, which did not account for subsidized parallel revenue streams, does not apply well to Vizio TV's with the VCU tracking. In a clever way, it's equivalent to product dumping when compared to their competitors that do not employ ad tracking.

This is the standard internet model of giveaway or subsidize the hardware in exchange for services or information analytics. Whether or not Vizio is successful in this approach will be interesting to say the least. I am tempted to buy some Vizio stock after the IPO. Personally, I don't really care if they track what I watch because I plan to use this TV for the family room (although at Christmas time I will probably get barraged with My Little Pony ads for my daughters collection), this might be a problem for others though.

I do like the thought that sitting at home watching a Criterion Collection movie on my R-65 was partially subsidized by some stupid reality TV advertisers.

Here's a good article summarizing their Inscape data service: http://www.cepro.com/article/backlas...customer_data/
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post #1320 of 2656 Old 09-02-2015, 09:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post
It doesn't feel hard to me at all to make a controller for this. It's a 384-pixel display.

The wiring of the LEDs is different on a locally-dimmed display than an old-school full array in that you need to address each zone directly with a "dimmer circuit" but the actual control part for this is pretty simplistic. Are the algorithms challenging? I'd say, "Not especially for a company that is already making displays with far fewer zones."
Well strictly speaking, regardless of the number of zones some part of the algorithm must still visit each and every pixel to determine what that zone should be. This is computationally expensive (and similar) for two zones or for 1000. If it's attempting a tapering of zone values in a perimeter around particular high points, then each pixel will likely be visited more than once to some degree or other, and this expense will likely go up with the number of zones, though not by much.

No matter how I envision the algorithm working, the work is primarily a function of the number of pixels, not the number of zones.
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