***Official 2014 Vizio P Series Owner's Thread - Page 583 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17461 of 18028 Old 05-18-2016, 09:28 AM
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Guys, I have a question about motion judder / temporal aliasing on these TVs. Apparently this is a huge and fraught topic, so I'm hesitant to bring it up. Tons of online research has returned a mess of conflicting viewpoints and almost nothing in the way of definitive info. Here is my scenario:


Vizio P502ui-B1, firmware version 1.3.22-UHD.
Sony BDP-S590 Blu Ray disc player, latest firmware version.
Alien 35th Anniversay Blu Ray disc.


There is a panning shot that displays a ton of judder, so I've gone through all the steps I can think of to alleviate it. As far as I know, here are the settings available that I might try, and the options for each setting:

On the TV:
Film Mode
- Auto
- Off
Clear Action
- On
- Off

On the Blu Ray player:
Cinema Conversion Mode
- Auto
- Video
Output Video Format
- Original Resolution
- Auto
- [specific resolutions, 1080i, 1080p]
BD-ROM 24p Output
- Auto
- On
- Off


I have tried every combination of settings, and the judder remains - as far as I can tell - identical regardless of setting.

I've frame-by-framed the scene, and can see that each frame show well-behaved motion with no image ghosting and the normal amount of motion blur you'd expect for a panning film camera shooting at 24 fps.

I've shot video with my iphone 6s at each setting. No matter what the setting, when I look at the iphone video frame by frame, I see two or three normal frames followed by two or three frames of doubled/ghosted images.


When I look at the video mode being detected by the TV, it always matches what the Blu Ray player reports, whether it's 24p, 60p, or 60i, depending on the settings.

My understanding is that these are 120Hz native-refresh-rate TVs, and as such ought to repeat each 24p frame an even 5 times and display no judder.

Obviously there's something else going on.

Is this an artifact of the screen's image persistence, something else, is there a setting I'm missing somewhere?


Smooth Motion Effect / Interpolation isn't an option, as it is an innately failed technology, and is only a band aid on a problem that shouldn't by rights exist in the first place.
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post #17462 of 18028 Old 05-19-2016, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chebzin View Post
Guys, I have a question about motion judder / temporal aliasing on these TVs. Apparently this is a huge and fraught topic, so I'm hesitant to bring it up. Tons of online research has returned a mess of conflicting viewpoints and almost nothing in the way of definitive info.
I have tried every combination of settings, and the judder remains - as far as I can tell - identical regardless of setting.

My understanding is that these are 120Hz native-refresh-rate TVs, and as such ought to repeat each 24p frame an even 5 times and display no judder.

Smooth Motion Effect / Interpolation isn't an option, as it is an innately failed technology, and is only a band aid on a problem that shouldn't by rights exist in the first place.

As far as I understand things, motion judder is inherent in 24fps movies and shows itself most clearly in panning shots. You cannot get a smooth pan at 24fps unless the camera is moving super slowly. The only way to make it smooth and judder free is to either up the framerate of the source (like in the Hobbit HFR versions) or to use software frame-creation to insert interpolated frames. Even if you set everything to output clean 24fps that is then evenly multiplied (with out frame-creation) to match the panel refresh you still have judder because it is in the source.


But perhaps you are talking about something else. ?? There is also the LCD ghosting due to the persistence of the panel. For that you can use the black-frame insertion / backlight strobing feature of the TV. But that will not help with judder on panning 24fps shots.
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post #17463 of 18028 Old 05-21-2016, 06:57 AM
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At this point, I've come to the conclusion that the ghosting that comes from the inadequate refresh rate inherent to LCD screens is the problem. No setting of Clear Action or anything else on this TV solves the problem or even alleviates it noticeably.

The idea that there's judder in 24fps pans doesn't make any sense. Judder is apparent backward motion. A smooth fast pan at any frame rate will show motion blur in proportion to the rate of the pan and in inverse proportion to the frame rate, but it will never show apparent reverse motion.

At this point, I'm done with LCD screens forever, and am looking forward to steadily decreasing prices on OLEDs, which seem to be the only viable near-term future display technology.
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post #17464 of 18028 Old 05-21-2016, 03:02 PM
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I've never heard anyone give that description of judder (not doubting that it's one meaning of the term). Telecine Judder is an artifact caused by the method of displaying 24p content on a 60p display; 60 is not evenly divisible by 24 so something has to be done to compensate. What's commonly done is 2:3 pulldown (sometimes called 3:2 pulldown), which spreads every 2 frames of 24 into 5 frames at 60 fps by displaying the first frame twice, the 2nd frame 3 times, the third frame twice, etc. This causes a mild jerky-ness that some small minority of people are extremely sensitive to; thankfully I'm not one of them (in general I only notice during end-credit scrolls).

Though many contemporary displays are 120Hz, like all but one model of the 2014 P-series, or very rarely 240Hz, both of which are evenly divisible by 24, relatively few video devices output anything other than 60Hz, applying 2:3 pulldown to 24p material. Even the output of the P-Series internal video apps is reported by the TV's status display to be a 60Hz signal, so I do most of my streaming from my TiVo, which will automatically output a 24Hz signal for 24p content from Netflix, Amazon Instant Video, VUDU, Hulu, Plex and YouTube; the great majority of content from all but YouTube is 24p. As stated, I'm not particularly sensitive to pulldown judder but it gives me warm fuzzies to know that uneven pulldown is not being applied .
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post #17465 of 18028 Old 05-23-2016, 11:29 AM
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It does seem like there a many different things that are referred to as 'judder'. But this is the first I have heard of judder described as "apparent backward motion" as well.


I do slightly notice the slight jerkiness of 3:2 pull-down but using Blu-ray players that output 24fps fixes that for me. I don't notice any issues on my P70 that I would say had to do with LCD persistence.


What I do notice - and am really bothered by - is the jerkiness of panning shots in all 24fps movies, even when watching at the theater. This jerkiness is inherent in the slow frame-rate. The only fix for that for me is to turn on the dreaded frame-creation.
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post #17466 of 18028 Old 05-31-2016, 01:00 AM
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Hi everyone,

I just wanted to know if someone could post their calibration settings on the P502-B1E (or b1 maybe) on the latest firmware.

I've been trying to get it right by eye, but it's quite difficult and I can't afford a professional calibration.

Do you think I should mess with the 11 point white balance and color tuner or should I just stick with the tv's presets?

Thanks in advance!
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post #17467 of 18028 Old 06-03-2016, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YujiKimura View Post
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to know if someone could post their calibration settings on the P502-B1E (or b1 maybe) on the latest firmware.

I've been trying to get it right by eye, but it's quite difficult and I can't afford a professional calibration.

Do you think I should mess with the 11 point white balance and color tuner or should I just stick with the tv's presets?

Thanks in advance!
Try doing it yourself, there should be a meter HCFR supports that is within your price range.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...-software.html
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post #17468 of 18028 Old 06-08-2016, 05:42 PM
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Help!!!

Guys, bought a P60 at Sam's with the black friday deal for $1000. Yesterday, a bright 1" diameter spot appeared in four quadrants on the TV. Very noticeable. When I turn off the active LED zones on the settings, they disappear. Would a power cycle (unplugged) fix this? Any ideas? I love this TV. Picture attached.

Thanks,

Will
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post #17469 of 18028 Old 06-08-2016, 07:19 PM
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A reboot/reset could fix it, unless it's hardware. Then you would need to see if you have coverage.


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post #17470 of 18028 Old 06-11-2016, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Millertime73 View Post
Guys, bought a P60 at Sam's with the black friday deal for $1000. Yesterday, a bright 1" diameter spot appeared in four quadrants on the TV. Very noticeable. When I turn off the active LED zones on the settings, they disappear. Would a power cycle (unplugged) fix this? Any ideas? I love this TV. Picture attached.

Thanks,

Will
those spots look like they are right where the mounting screws are. do you have it on a mount and are the screws too long or possibly magnetized? just looks odd.
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post #17471 of 18028 Old 06-11-2016, 05:43 PM
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those spots look like they are right where the mounting screws are. do you have it on a mount and are the screws too long or possibly magnetized? just looks odd.
Great call! Will be interesting to find out.

Jack
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post #17472 of 18028 Old 06-12-2016, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Millertime73 View Post
When I turn off the active LED zones on the settings, they disappear.
Turning off the Active LED Zones makes the problem disappear indicates that there may be
an issue with the LED drivers or zone control. The spots are too far apart to be caused by
pressure from the screws from the mount points—which would have been immediately noticeable
when you first turned on the device after mounting—nor are magnetized screws the issue
as the device is not a CRT.

Try a System Reset or unplug the device from AC power for sixty seconds and see if the
fixes the issue. If not, this may be a hardware failure that is covered under warranty.
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post #17473 of 18028 Old 06-16-2016, 08:48 AM
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Anyone else planning on getting an Xbox One S to hook up to their P Series UHDTV?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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post #17474 of 18028 Old 06-16-2016, 09:26 AM
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Anyone else planning on getting an Xbox One S to hook up to their P Series UHDTV?
No, but I'm considering one to hook up to my Halo 5 exclusive One console

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post #17475 of 18028 Old 06-16-2016, 11:47 AM
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Preordered my 2TB Xbox One S day one! will hook that to my P55 and move my Day one edition to my bedroom Sharp Aquos 55 1080P set.
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post #17476 of 18028 Old 06-17-2016, 03:05 AM
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I pre-ordered the 500 GB version--I can wait and I won't pay $100 premium for a slow-boat 2TB drive. I'll hook my 4TB external drive to it and shelve my original Xbone.

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post #17477 of 18028 Old 06-23-2016, 07:04 AM
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remind me again, does my 2014 70" p support any type of hdr? (i'm definitely get the xbox one s) and what is everyones settings in the xbox one video settings app? I know we have a 10 bit screen...
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post #17478 of 18028 Old 06-23-2016, 08:35 AM
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The 2014 P-series does not feature HDR.
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post #17479 of 18028 Old 06-23-2016, 03:49 PM
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micahel, what do you set your color depth and color space to on your xbox one?
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post #17480 of 18028 Old 06-23-2016, 05:08 PM
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micahel, what do you set your color depth and color space to on your xbox one?

You talkin' t'me ? I only use it for games and games have looked great, so it's remained set to the default, 24-bit, "Standard" color space.

I do recall that when I first got it I briefly tried Ryse and it somehow didn't seem quite right, but by the time I'd bought this set I'd played through the campaign of that game three times and probably hundreds of hours in the arena mode so I wasn't actually playing it and haven't since. Everything else is gorgeous; just finished a session of Destiny.

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post #17481 of 18028 Old 06-23-2016, 11:29 PM
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As far as I understand things, motion judder is inherent in 24fps movies and shows itself most clearly in panning shots. You cannot get a smooth pan at 24fps unless the camera is moving super slowly. The only way to make it smooth and judder free is to either up the framerate of the source (like in the Hobbit HFR versions) or to use software frame-creation to insert interpolated frames. Even if you set everything to output clean 24fps that is then evenly multiplied (with out frame-creation) to match the panel refresh you still have judder because it is in the source.
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I've never heard anyone give that description of judder (not doubting that it's one meaning of the term). Telecine Judder is an artifact caused by the method of displaying 24p content on a 60p display; 60 is not evenly divisible by 24 so something has to be done to compensate. What's commonly done is 2:3 pulldown (sometimes called 3:2 pulldown)...

Yes, you are both correct.

There are different "kinds" of 'motion judder' - and different things that can cause it.

Movies and most prime-time TV shows are usually recorded at 24fps; live TV, reality TV, and sports are recorded at 30fps or 60fps. If you have a Blu-ray player that can output at 24Hz/fps, I recommend using this output setting to avoid introducing 3:2 pulldown/telecine judder (also know as 'presentation judder'). (See @michaeltscott excellent description of this above.)

Then there is 'motion judder' that is inherent in the source - especially with content that is filmed at 24fps - sometimes referred to as 'film judder'. Movie directors can reduce the effects of 'film judder' by changing the scene and its lighting, and by reducing extreme camera motions. However, to deal with daylight action scenes, they usually resort to adding 'motion blur' by increasing camera shutter angles or exposure times. Once added, this motion blur is extremely difficult to remove.

'Frame interpolation' introduces additional frames between the original frames in order to increase the perceived framerate and reduce 'motion blur'. This creates a "soap opera effect" (SOE) and can also introduce undesirable visual artifacts and ghosting, and sometimes even lead to an increase in 'motion judder' (e.g. 'micro stuttering'; 'playback jitter/choppiness'; 'frame skipping').

The most advanced 'frame rate conversion' (FRC) methods use 'motion estimation' (ME), which is the process of finding corresponding points between two video frames using complex algorithms, to improve the quality of 'interpolated frames'. However, not all ME technologies are created equal.

Unless you are one of the few people who actually enjoys the dreaded SOE, you should either turn OFF all 'frame interpolation' or set it to the lowest setting - especially when watching prime-time TV shows or movies.

One of the main causes of 'motion blur' is the fact that your eyes are continuously tracking moving objects on a screen. However, for sample-and-hold displays, such as LCDs and OLEDs, an image is statically displayed for the entire refresh. Your eyes are still moving during a refresh, causing the static image in one refresh to be blurred across your retina before the next refresh steps the image forward in the next frame.


Richard
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post #17482 of 18028 Old 06-25-2016, 12:06 AM
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Can someone please provide me with the exact footprint of the P75? Is it also back ordered as well? I'm trying to see if it will fit on a 58 inch wide stand.

I just found out motion lag is better on the P Series for gaming and decided on it over the KS9000 as a result. I figure I may as well just throw in the extra money and get the 75 incher.
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post #17483 of 18028 Old 06-25-2016, 12:10 AM
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Can someone please provide me with the exact footprint of the P75? Is it also back ordered as well? I'm trying to see if it will fit on a 58 inch wide stand.

I just found out motion lag is better on the P Series for gaming and decided on it over the KS9000 as a result. I figure I may as well just throw in the extra money and get the 75 incher.

You should try posting this in the 2016 P-Series Thread.

(I'm assuming you have one of the newer models.)


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post #17484 of 18028 Old 06-25-2016, 12:15 AM
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I apologize it's 2 am where I'm at. My mistake.
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post #17485 of 18028 Old 06-25-2016, 12:17 AM
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I apologize it's 2 am where I'm at. My mistake.

No apology necessary. It's 2 am here too.



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post #17486 of 18028 Old 06-25-2016, 10:37 PM
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Hi,

My P502Ui-B1E recently started having problems with its networking. The wired connection shows as "Disconnected" even though I have it connected. I've tried different cables and different ports on the switch it's connected to as well to no avail. Trying to switch to WiFi instead but while trying to type in the password, the menu keeps backing out to the main menu while I'm in the middle of typing the password.

Has anyone else had issues like this?
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post #17487 of 18028 Old 06-26-2016, 02:23 AM
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Hi,

My P502Ui-B1E recently started having problems with its networking. The wired connection shows as "Disconnected" even though I have it connected. I've tried different cables and different ports on the switch it's connected to as well to no avail. Trying to switch to WiFi instead but while trying to type in the password, the menu keeps backing out to the main menu while I'm in the middle of typing the password.

Has anyone else had issues like this?

Have you tried rebooting your router?


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post #17488 of 18028 Old 06-26-2016, 03:44 PM
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Have you tried rebooting your router?


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Didn't work.
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post #17489 of 18028 Old 06-27-2016, 08:06 AM
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Cool Vizio p series 2014 hdr color gamut bt.2020

Hi guys, I am new here, love my Pseries
My friend has an newer Pseries (2016) with HDR, I was wondering if there are settings that would give my picture like his. Its so much brighter and the colors really "pop"! I like my TV to be bright and colorful
Any ideas? Just like the picture below :P

Thank you,
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post #17490 of 18028 Old 06-27-2016, 08:34 AM
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The new P series has a higher nit output as well as a few other improvements (including HDR). The 2014 P series does not have HDR, you could try blowing things out with exaggerated settings but it will not match.


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