Sony 2015 - X900C, X910C, X930C, X940C, X850C, X830C - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 2923 Old 04-17-2015, 07:25 PM
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So the 75x850c and the 75x910c both have frame dimming even though one is direct lit and the other is edge-lit?
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post #452 of 2923 Old 04-17-2015, 07:29 PM
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So from what I'm reading VA pannels have better black but worst viewing angle over IPS?

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post #453 of 2923 Old 04-17-2015, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
So the 75x850c and the 75x910c both have frame dimming even though one is direct lit and the other is edge-lit?
Yes. The only substantive difference I can see is in the cabinet design between the two.
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post #454 of 2923 Old 04-17-2015, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Yes. The only substantive difference I can see is in the cabinet design between the two.
Theoretically should one have better overall PQ if they are using the same panel and the same frame dimming technology? There must be some reason for Sony to manufacture both sets. I wouldn't think there would be enough of a market for 75 inch sets to offer two sets so similar in performance and price. Oh well, I'll have one of them.
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post #455 of 2923 Old 04-17-2015, 08:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by retro124 View Post
So from what I'm reading VA pannels have better black but worst viewing angle over IPS?
Correct.
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post #456 of 2923 Old 04-17-2015, 08:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
Theoretically should one have better overall PQ if they are using the same panel and the same frame dimming technology? There must be some reason for Sony to manufacture both sets. I wouldn't think there would be enough of a market for 75 inch sets to offer two sets so similar in performance and price. Oh well, I'll have one of them.
The reason why the 910C is Edgelit LED is because of the very thin bezel. LEDs cannot be put directly behind that thin area so they used Edgelit which I believe is reflecting upwards. Whatever Sony is doing with the thin panel they did an amazing job. But with the 850C it is a lil thick so that it can have direct LEDs.


IMO. I would prefer the direct LEDs because I hate clouding. I guess we will have to wait for reviews before we pull the trigger on the 910C and 850C just to see which looks better in the dark.
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post #457 of 2923 Old 04-17-2015, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Itwillneverend View Post
Correct.
Thanks I'm still wondering to swap 65X850B for 70X850B just windering what result I can get.

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post #458 of 2923 Old 04-17-2015, 09:42 PM
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If the 850c matches the PQ of the 910c then thin would be the only selling point for a $500 premium 910c. I've seen at least one new direct lit non dimming set and it looked very nice. Sony never struck me as marketing idiots so this sould be interesting. Of course street price is all that will matter in the end.
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post #459 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 02:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post
If the 850c matches the PQ of the 910c then thin would be the only selling point for a $500 premium 910c. I've seen at least one new direct lit non dimming set and it looked very nice. Sony never struck me as marketing idiots so this sould be interesting. Of course street price is all that will matter in the end.
Sounds good that the direct lit non dimming set looked better. I cant imagine it not. I can't wait. I been saving my money for 2 months now.
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post #460 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 07:11 AM
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An operating fireplace under a television is about the worst thing to do.

Bad for the TV, hard on the neck, and in my opinion, not particularly attractive.
I agree however, all the new construction trending in my area my wife and I looked at have this setup, and I mean all of them. Thought about relocating penetrations to a side wall and actually discussed this with Magnolia during their walkthrough, the jury is still out. The home has Sonance speakers built in throughout the house in 6 zones with a single media closet so the living room would be the first to tackle. Would like eye level viewing however with wife's furnishing ideas may dictate by design over fireplace.

Tried to upload JPG with my photoshop job to show what a X910C would look like in that room over the fireplace as I do value the opinions here, don't think its looks that bad IMHO. Bandwidth not good over the water, will try at later date.
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post #461 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 09:34 AM
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I'm confused here. At least from the advertising specs I've read the 850c is an edge-lit TV, and not FALD. It's possible, though, that I may have misunderstood what you meant. Are you actually saying that the 850c is an edge-lit model with local dimming? It may also be possible that the advertising I've read is in error.

I think I'll call Sony on Monday and find out about this for sure. Of course, it would be great if the 65" 850c was indeed fully back lit, but at its price range something doesn't seem right. I'll post the results of my conversation.
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post #462 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 4kfan View Post
I'm confused here. At least from the advertising specs I've read the 850c is an edge-lit TV, and not FALD. It's possible, though, that I may have misunderstood what you meant. Are you actually saying that the 850c is an edge-lit model with local dimming? It may also be possible that the advertising I've read is in error.

I think I'll call Sony on Monday and find out about this for sure. Of course, it would be great if the 65" 850c was indeed fully back lit, but at its price range something doesn't seem right. I'll post the results of my conversation.
Direct lit is NOT fald. It is completely different and from very knowlegable people direct lit is actually behind edge lit in picture performance.
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post #463 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by 4kfan View Post
I'm confused here. At least from the advertising specs I've read the 850c is an edge-lit TV, and not FALD. It's possible, though, that I may have misunderstood what you meant. Are you actually saying that the 850c is an edge-lit model with local dimming? It may also be possible that the advertising I've read is in error.

I think I'll call Sony on Monday and find out about this for sure. Of course, it would be great if the 65" 850c was indeed fully back lit, but at its price range something doesn't seem right. I'll post the results of my conversation.
It is confusing but from what I understand the 75x850c is not edge lit but direct lit. I don't know if direct lit and full array means the same thing but I'm sure it's not ld (local dimming). I know Vizio offers a full array/direct lit that is not local dimming. I'm not sure how frame dimming would work with a direct lit display.
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post #464 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 4kfan View Post
I'm confused here. At least from the advertising specs I've read the 850c is an edge-lit TV, and not FALD. It's possible, though, that I may have misunderstood what you meant. Are you actually saying that the 850c is an edge-lit model with local dimming? It may also be possible that the advertising I've read is in error.

I think I'll call Sony on Monday and find out about this for sure. Of course, it would be great if the 65" 850c was indeed fully back lit, but at its price range something doesn't seem right. I'll post the results of my conversation.
According to the Sony US website the 850c is direct lit(not fald) and the 910c is edge lit. You can see the specs if you go to CES TV's and use the compare function. Neither set supports local dimming. You need to step up to the 930c to get local dimming.
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post #465 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 10:52 AM
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Direct lit is NOT fald. It is completely different and from very knowlegable people direct lit is actually behind edge lit in picture performance.
Direct lit means the light source(s) is behind the panel, lighting it directly. Full array local dimming is also placing the light sources behind the panel. How so "completely different"? Assuming no local dimming, what knowledgeable people say edge lit is better PQ than direct? Granted it's lower cost and enables thinner, lower cost, form factors.

There were fewer uniformity and edge bleed problems back when everything was CCFLs behind the cell.
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post #466 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 11:08 AM
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Direct lit means the light source(s) is behind the panel, lighting it directly. Full array local dimming is also placing the light sources behind the panel. How so "completely different"? Assuming no local dimming, what knowledgeable people say edge lit is better PQ than direct? Granted it's lower cost and enables thinner, lower cost, form factors.

There were fewer uniformity and edge bleed problems back when everything was CCFLs behind the cell.
Over in the thread "js9500 just arrived" threads, mark Fitzgerald who runs a store explained in detail why direct lit is inferior to edge lit as it was explainedto him by some higher up Samsung reps because samsung is also using direct lit on their mid level tvs. I'll have to find his posts later on my laptop as it's hard to search from my phone. I do believe he said direct lit uses a fraction of the leds that edge lit uses.
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post #467 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 11:19 AM
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Ok I'm confused. I've read here that the X850C is direct LED, BUT on Crutchfield it says "Dynamic Edge LED backlight with frame dimming for excellent picture contrast and black levels". I cannot find any reference on Sony's US site that says otherwise. Does someone have a link?

The new W850C DOES indeed say Direct LED on both Sony US site and Crutchfield.

Are people confusing the 850C's ?
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post #468 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 11:40 AM
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I cannot find any reference on Sony's US site that says otherwise. Does someone have a link?
It has been stated here many times: you need to go to the Sony CES 2015 TV page, select Compare for two models, one of which is the one you are interested in and Compare Now. Then you will see the specs. They may not be correct specs. But you asked for where Sony said what.
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post #469 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 11:45 AM
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It has been stated here many times: you need to go to the Sony CES 2015 TV page, select Compare for two models, one of which is the one you are interested in and Compare Now. Then you will see the specs. They may not be correct specs. But you asked for where Sony said what.
Thanks but that also says the X850C is Edge Lit.

I guess we'll see when they are released.
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post #470 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 11:49 AM
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Over in the thread "js9500 just arrived" threads, mark Fitzgerald who runs a store explained in detail why direct lit is inferior to edge lit as it was explainedto him by some higher up Samsung reps because samsung is also using direct lit on their mid level tvs. I'll have to find his posts later on my laptop as it's hard to search from my phone. I do believe he said direct lit uses a fraction of the leds that edge lit uses.
I'll try to go find it in that thread. I'm skeptical of anything Samsung says because I think they are more interested in marketing engineering than TV engineering. I have no doubt a direct backlight can be implemented with fewer LEDs than an edge backlight if local dimming is out of the equation. Hard to imagine how that's a bad thing--again, if local dimming is not a requirement. Fewer is fewer to have to get color matched, brightness matched, pointed the correct direction, diffused, etc…
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post #471 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 11:50 AM
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When comparing direct lit between Samsung and Sony we must wait I think. How many zones and how well they are implemented would create dramatic differences in PQ. also is the Sammy 75" like the Sony? If not then we're talking completely different panels from different manufacturers with different specs. There's just not that many 75 inch panels out there.
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Thanks but that also says the X850C is Edge Lit.

I guess we'll see when they are released.
You must be talking about the 55X850C.
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I'll try to go find it in that thread. I'm skeptical of anything Samsung says because I think they are more interested in marketing engineering than TV engineering. I have no doubt a direct backlight can be implemented with fewer LEDs than an edge backlight if local dimming is out of the equation. Hard to imagine how that's a bad thing--again, if local dimming is not a requirement. Fewer is fewer to have to get color matched, brightness matched, pointed the correct direction, diffused, etc…
Mark thought the same thing, that direct lit would be superior because common sense tells us it should be, but after you understand how it works it makes more sense. Even with all that said, the feedback on the mid level samsungs say the tvs have better pictures than last years top samsung tvs that were edge lit, but is because of improved processing. With sonys top notch processing, u won't be able to tell the difference between edge and direct anyways but they will both still be significantly inferior to a true FALD TV.
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post #474 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 07:30 PM
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I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to explain the difference between direct lit and edge lit, although I'm forced to admit that I'm still a little bit confused.

Of course, either technology will be inferior to FALD, but as my budget will only allow me to spend a maximum of $3,500 USD, a top-quality FALD model is out of the question. Among the best edge or direct lit TVs that I think I can buy (when they come down in price later in the year) will be the Sony 65" 850c or 900c, or the Samsung 65" JS8500.

Naturally, I haven't yet seen any of the Sony models, but for judging with Samsung I've watched the 55" and 65" JS9000 models showing true 4k material and they looked superb. But I haven't seen demos on these TVs long enough to judge edge-light problems or flashing. I have a feeling, though, that any of the three will provide a superb picture, especially in terms of upscaling and 3D viewing.
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Originally Posted by 4kfan View Post
I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to explain the difference between direct lit and edge lit, although I'm forced to admit that I'm still a little bit confused.

Of course, either technology will be inferior to FALD, but as my budget will only allow me to spend a maximum of $3,500 USD, a top-quality FALD model is out of the question. Among the best edge or direct lit TVs that I think I can buy (when they come down in price later in the year) will be the Sony 65" 850c or 900c, or the Samsung 65" JS8500.

Naturally, I haven't yet seen any of the Sony models, but for judging with Samsung I've watched the 55" and 65" JS9000 models showing true 4k material and they looked superb. But I haven't seen demos on these TVs long enough to judge edge-light problems or flashing. I have a feeling, though, that any of the three will provide a superb picture, especially in terms of upscaling and 3D viewing.
These are informative articles that you may find helpful, if you haven't reviewed them already:
http://www.cnet.com/news/led-local-dimming-explained/
http://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-local-dimming
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post #476 of 2923 Old 04-18-2015, 07:57 PM
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spend a maximum of $3,500 USD [for a 65"]
Short of waiting for prices to drop around Black Friday, you might also want to be on the lookout for the Panasonic TC-65CX800U. It will *probably* come in somewhere below the $3.5k. The Samsung UN65JU7100 is also in your strike zone and initial reports are promising.

If you are not in the market till around Black Friday, 1) A lot of things may be more clear and/or change by then, 2) The XBR-65X900C may be in that $ range by then, 3) The Panasonic TC-65CX850U *may* be in that $ range by then--and is FALD. A number of us here have very high hopes and expectations for the CX850 but price is, as yet, a total guess. We'd like to see it introduce at $4k but have no real evidence that it will.
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post #477 of 2923 Old 04-19-2015, 04:17 AM
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Great info Carlos. Looks like the X900C models will ship in July
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post #479 of 2923 Old 04-19-2015, 08:11 AM
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Now I just need the 55X900C to hit showrooms so I can compare it against the 55X850C and take one home.
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post #480 of 2923 Old 04-19-2015, 09:03 AM
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Thanks to the information provided to me, I now fully understand all aspects of LED lighting, and I very much appreciate the help. With this, I will take a closer look at the various 4k TVs I'm considering, and judge the displays with a little more discerning eye. This can really matter, as I would now like to keep any TV I buy for around 4 years to justify its price.

I've read about the Panasonic, and it certainly looks very interesting. I currently own a Panasonic plasma 3d TV (58" VT25), and although it's not the equal of the ZT60, in its own right it provides a superb 1080p picture. At least from my experience, Panasonic makes very high quality TVs, and so the idea that I might be able to get their FALD model for a price that may be close to my budget sounds interesting. Unfortunately, there may be two negatives here. First, if I'm lucky I might be able to see that TV in our largest city 130 miles away when it becomes available, but otherwise it would be a blind buy. Secondly, I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I thought I'd read that that TV does not have 3D, which I really want.

Right at the moment, it seems my best bet would be to buy the best edge-lit local dimming 4k TV I can afford, accept the limitations, and in four years step up to the more refined and affordable OLED system. I'm going to have to check on this, but as far as Sony is concerned I believe this would mean buying the 65" 900c when I believe it will sell for around $3,500 this Holiday season.

As for the Samsung 7100/7500 UHD TVs, I've seen these demonstrated and I was very impressed. They provide a surprisingly good picture. And as I've said, the JS8500 SUHD is a noticeable step up. However, I'm reading about quite a number of problems the 8500 seems to be having with lighting issues, so I'm getting a few uneasy feelings.

As for Sony, at the moment I'm thinking that although the 900c officially isn't HDR, its triluminous display may be quite close, and aligned with 4k Blu-ray may provide the great picture I'm looking for. I just hope it won't have significant edge-lighting problems.

For the record, the reason I'm waiting until late in the year to buy is because only then will I be able to sign on as a new customer with DirecTV, the first 4k Blu-ray players should be released for sale, and 2015 4k TV prices should come down. And so I'm doing as much research as I can through the year to try to make the best buying decision possible for my situation.

Thanks again for everyone's advice and opinions.
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