Full HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 Capable 4K LCD List Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dinjal546 View Post
48UB8500 can do 4.4.4 on HDMI 2.0 [email protected] and 10 bit on port 3 HDMI using Nvidia 970/980.
HDMI 2.0 only supports 4:4:4 at 8-bit - [email protected]/60Hz

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post #32 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 11:46 AM
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Panasonic TC-65AX800U can do 4K/60 at 4:4:4 through Displayport and HDMI 2.0, awesome panel for PC/Gaming.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...rs-thread.html
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post #33 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by steph280 View Post
Panasonic TC-65AX800U can do 4K/60 at 4:4:4 through Displayport and HDMI 2.0, awesome panel for PC/Gaming.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...rs-thread.html
Which also means it is an 8-bit panel.

But it is my understanding that the X800U has gotten terrible reviews...


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post #34 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post
Which also means it is an 8-bit panel.

But it is my understanding that the X800U has gotten terrible reviews...

The reviews I've read are pretty favorable. For example:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...lcd-uhdtv.html
http://televisions.reviewed.com/cont...-led-tv-review
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post #35 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
So far the U-Ray™ specs call for 4:2:0 only. No higher color is allowed.

That's for the disks. Same 4:2:0 as blu-rays. But, the players up-sample the chroma and output 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 which will be the factor that pushes the HDMI 2.0 spec when combined with 4K/60 and 10/12 bit.
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post #36 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rlb View Post
That's for the disks. Same 4:2:0 as blu-rays. But, the players up-sample the chroma and output 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 which will be the factor that pushes the HDMI 2.0 spec when combined with 4K/60 and 10/12 bit.
When you say "pushes"... what exactly do you mean...?

It is my understanding that HDMI 2.0 only supports/works with 4:4:4 at 8-bit and does not support/work with 4:4:4 at 10/12 bit...

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post #37 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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HDMI
v1.3(a/b/b1/c)/1.4(a) = 8.16 Gbit/s (340 MHz)
v2.0 = 14.40 Gbit/s (600 MHz).

8-Bit:
3840 px, 2160 px, 60 Hz, 24 bit, aspect ratio 1.78, 11.94 Gbit/s.

12.79 Gbit/s, CVT-R, 15.99 Gbit/s TMDS, Pixelclock 533.114 MHz.
12.54 Gbit/s, CVT-R2, 15.67 Gbit/s TMDS, Pixelclock 522.452 MHz.
14.26 Gbit/s, CEA-861, 17.82 Gbit/s TMDS, Pixelclock 594.000 MHz.

10-Bit:
3840 px, 2160 px, 60 Hz, 30 bit, aspect ratio 1.78, 14.93 Gbit/s.

15.99 Gbit/s, CVT-R, 19.99 Gbit/s TMDS, Pixelclock 666.392 MHz.
15.67 Gbit/s, CVT-R2, 19.59 Gbit/s TMDS, Pixelclock 653.065 MHz.
17.82 Gbit/s, CEA-861, 22.28 Gbit/s TMDS, Pixelclock 742.500 MHz.

Look's like with overhead removed, HDMI 2.0 is just barely incapable of 10-bit 4:4:4. HDMI 2.0 falls well short of DP 1.2 specs.
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post #38 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Taifur View Post
can anyone suggest me good HDMI 2.0 cable ?
There is no such thing an an HDMI 2.0 cable. The number refers to the hardware (chipset) version. Any certified, passive high speed cable from a reputable mfr/dealer will meet all HDMI 1.4/2.0 hardware specs. And you don't need to pay a premium price for one.
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post #39 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post
When you say "pushes"... what exactly do you mean...?

It is my understanding that HDMI 2.0 only supports/works with 4:4:4 at 8-bit and does not support/work with 4:4:4 at 10/12 bit...

By "pushes", I meant "challenges" the spec limitations.


That's at 4k/60. At 4k/24 (i.e., movies on the new players) there is no problem with outputting 4:4:4 at even 16 bit. At 4k/60 12 bit they can still output 4:2:2.


But, I see no problem since it's only 4:2:0 on the disk. Everything else is just "up-sampling" the chroma. Why care if it's done by the player or after it gets to the display. Unless that is, you're working with a PC. If you need DP, buy a computer monitor.
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post #40 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rlb View Post
By "pushes", I meant "challenges" the spec limitations.


That's at 4k/60. At 4k/24 (i.e., movies on the new players) there is no problem with outputting 4:4:4 at even 16 bit. At 4k/60 12 bit they can still output 4:2:2.


But, I see no problem since it's only 4:2:0 on the disk. Everything else is just "up-sampling" the chroma. Why care if it's done by the player or after it gets to the display. Unless that is, you're working with a PC. If you need DP, buy a computer monitor.
Yup. And I've found that the best PQ results from letting the TV do the chroma upsampling instead of the player, although there is a partial degree of this which can't be avoided with Blu-ray because HDMI 1.4 won't pass 4:2:0, so at a minimum the signal must be upsampled to 4:2:2 (which is done via an industry-standard algorithm). What HDMI 2.0 should bring to the table is actual 4:2:0 output for the first time.
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post #41 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rlb View Post
Unless that is, you're working with a PC. If you need DP, buy a computer monitor.
Except the larger sizes of TVs are not available in "monitor" form.
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post #42 of 81 Old 01-28-2015, 09:13 PM
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1st one...

"All four HDMI ports on the Panasonic TX AX900 support HDMI 2.0 (18Gbps, 4:4:4) and HDCP 2.2".

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx55a...1411073944.htm

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post #43 of 81 Old 01-29-2015, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
Remember, a manufacturer stating that their X device has HDMI 2.0 is meaningless. It must list [email protected] 4:4:4 Chroma+HDCP 2.2 to verify that it's the actual HDMI 2.0 full-speed chip-set.
What about the panel bit requirement?
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post #44 of 81 Old 01-29-2015, 03:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HDTVAV View Post
1st one...

"All four HDMI ports on the Panasonic TX AX900 support HDMI 2.0 (18Gbps, 4:4:4) and HDCP 2.2".

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx55a...1411073944.htm

Nice, is that a UK only model? Can't find it for sale anywhere and it comes up only on UK sites.
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post #45 of 81 Old 01-29-2015, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
Nice, is that a UK only model? Can't find it for sale anywhere and it comes up only on UK sites.
http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model...ault-_-Default

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post #46 of 81 Old 01-29-2015, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post
I never said anything about what HDMI does or doesn't support so I don't know why you are trying to correct me.

The picture I posted is directly from the LG manual and was a response to someone claiming it did 4:4:4 at 10bit.
I wasn't correcting you - I was agreeing with you...

And posted the HDMI 2.0 chart as further evidence...

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post #47 of 81 Old 01-30-2015, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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With the current HDMI 1.4 speed "HDMI 2.0" that's out there, you'd be limited to UHD phase 1 only on that chart. If you got a set with actual HDMI 2.0 speed chip-set, you'd be good for phase 2. I also don't think 24/30 FPS is the only FPS to worry about. Some movies and TV shows are moving to 60 FPS. We should also no limit our discussion to UHD Blu-ray. Other media players and source devices may make use of full HDMI 2.0 speeds. I honestly want my $8000 TV purchase to last 5-6 years.

There are only positive aspects of going with actual HDMI 2.0 rated speed equipment and zero negatives. Unless you count waiting for the equipment to ship as a negative.
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post #48 of 81 Old 01-30-2015, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
With the current HDMI 1.4 speed "HDMI 2.0" that's out there, you'd be limited to UHD phase 1 only on that chart. If you got a set with actual HDMI 2.0 speed chip-set, you'd be good for phase 2. I also don't think 24/30 FPS is the only FPS to worry about. Some movies and TV shows are moving to 60 FPS. We should also no limit our discussion to UHD Blu-ray. Other media players and source devices may make use of full HDMI 2.0 speeds. I honestly want my $8000 TV purchase to last 5-6 years.

There are only positive aspects of going with actual HDMI 2.0 rated speed equipment and zero negatives. Unless you count waiting for the equipment to ship as a negative.
Well, therein is the problem...

No (VERY few) TVs this year (2015) will have FULL HDMI 2.0 - almost every one will have HDMI 2.0 "lite".

It seems that will have to wait until 2016.

And then, according to the chart above - the 2016 TVs will be "obsolete" in two years when the new UHD specs come out.

I agree with you - I would like my $4,000 TV to last awhile - at least 4-5 years!

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post #49 of 81 Old 01-30-2015, 02:05 PM
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^^^^^ I agree. This full court marketing press for 4k/HDMI 2.0 last year (and into this year) without full disclosure of what the mfrs were actually offering in their HDMI 2.0 tv's (or what they meant by HMDI 2.0) was misleading at best and did nothing more than confuse a lot of people. There's nothing wrong with being an early adopter but at the price of some of the higher end sets, and then to find out that obsolescence may be sooner than one expected sucks.
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post #50 of 81 Old 02-17-2015, 07:51 AM
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A question. Does this mean that the 4K TVs available right now will not be able to take full advantage of 4K Blu-Rays? I am deciding on whether the pay the premiums for 4K or not.
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post #51 of 81 Old 02-17-2015, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by hoyalawya View Post
A question. Does this mean that the 4K TVs available right now will not be able to take full advantage of 4K Blu-Rays? I am deciding on whether the pay the premiums for 4K or not.
Short answer... wait for 2016...

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post #52 of 81 Old 02-19-2015, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post
As long as you have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 (which pretty much all TVs have now) you will be fine.

All this hand-wringing is over pointless specs for mythical 60p 4:4:4 content that we are never getting.
You mentioned that in another thread as well. The HDCP2.2 chipsets are just starting to become available so to say that "pretty much all TVs have now" is a stretch. Unless the specs specifically state HDMI 2.0 (and it would be nice if the mfr listed which HDMI 2.0 protocols are supported) and HDCP 2.2 I wouldn't assume that.
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post #53 of 81 Old 02-19-2015, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post
My 2013 Sony has HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0

Without checking I'd be willing to bet that all 2015 (and probably 2014) TVs from Sony, Samsung, LG, and Panasonic have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2.

Any other brands, well you get what you pay for.
Interesting. HDMI 2.0 was ratified in Sept. 2013 meaning the fully compliant chipsets weren't even available for earlier builds of tv's, let alone other devices. HDCP 2.2 chipsets are just becoming available now and were not even around in early 2013. Sony did an interesting thing last year when they pushed out an "HDMI 2.0 update" for some of it's tv's but in reality all they did was up the clock speed a bit so that they could push the upper limit of HDMI 1.4 which overlaps with the minimal spec for HDMI 2.0. That way they could call it HDMI 2.0 when in fact it was more like HDMI 2.0 Lite. I doubt very seriously that they had fully compliant HDMI 2.0 chips in 2013 let alone HDCP 2.2.
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post #54 of 81 Old 02-19-2015, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post
My 2013 Sony has HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0

Without checking I'd be willing to bet that all 2015 (and probably 2014) TVs from Sony, Samsung, LG, and Panasonic have HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2.

Any other brands, well you get what you pay for.
Sony and most other UHDTVs use HDMI 2.0 chips from Silicon Image (SI). Their HDMI 2.0 w/HDCP 2.2 chipset has been available since shortly after the HDMI 2.0 spec. was published in 2013. However these chipsets only support the 10.2 Gbps version of HDMI 2.0 and it is only very recently that the 18 Gbps version of the HDMI 2.0 chip has become available for SI. Panasonic also introduced HDMI 2.0 chipsets in later 2013 but those did not support HDCP 2.2, so will not be compatible with the upcoming Ultra-HD Blu-ray players. Panasonic and Samsung offered some UHDTVs starting in mid-2014 that supported full HDMI 2.0 (18 Gbps) and HDCP 2.2, but not a the same time. There were menu settings that configured the HDMI 2.0 port to either give you HDMI 2.0 at 10.2 Gbps + HDCP 2.2 -or- HDMI 2.0 at 18 Gbps without HDMI 2.2. So you really must dig deep to find out what a given UHDTV is really providing.
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post #55 of 81 Old 02-19-2015, 01:54 PM
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So they have two chips wired up to one port? Wow.

I don't know if there's been a similar event in the US, but in Britainland Samsung invited AVF to check out one of their 2015 SUHD sets, and I was surprised to read the following:

"In addition there will be a chroma sub-sampling rate of 4:2:0 for 50/60/100/120p and 4:2:2 for 24/25/30p; along with support for HDCP 2.2 copy protection."

https://www.avforums.com/article/fir...d-review.11209

So, given the bolded part above it appears that even their super-duper brand new SUHD sets - which will meet the UHD BD standard for colour gamut and bit-depth - STILL have the 10.2 Gb/s HDMI silicon! I think that says it all as far as this myopic quest for 'true' HDMI 2.0 is concerned.

I appreciate that certain users will want 4:4:4 60p 4K for their computers or whatever (boy, that text sure looks crisp!), but in real world terms it simply won't be necessary for most 4K TV owners.
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post #56 of 81 Old 02-19-2015, 01:57 PM
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This is probably the 5th time I've said this in this thread. This is a complete non-issue.

Let me ask you what exactly are you expecting 18Gbps to do for you?

In the short term, it's really only needed for when you want to use the UHDTV also as a computer monitor where you want to run at 60Hz with RGB or 4:4:4 input and 10-bit minimum bit depth. This is not just for gamers (I'm not one) but with a UHDTV or UHD monitor you could essentially display four 1080p windows and this would be very useful for some applications such as when doing video editing, web page creation and other applications that today would require multiple 1080p monitors in order to display all of the needed info. Looking further out in time, beyond the first wave of UHD blu-rays, which only required the 10.2 Gbps version of HDMI 2.0 w/HDCP 2.2, there are optional, higher performance extensions that will be offered that will only be supported on a given UHDTV if is has the full capacity version HDMI plus HDCP 2.2. UHDTVs with only the 10.2 Gbps + HDCP 2.2 inputs will still be compatible with these future UHD Blu-rays, but will get a baseline version of the video without the enhanced features (e.g., 10-bit instead of 12-bit depth, 4:2:0 instead of 4:2:2 chroma, etc.). These enhanced capabilies may not show up on UHD Blu-rays for another 2-3 years, but they are part of the future evolution envisioned for UHD Blu-ray.


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So they have two chips wired up to one port? Wow.

.............
Or perhaps Panasonic has a 2nd generation HDMI 2.0 chip that offers two modes of operation. I don't know which way they went (1 chip or 2) for these dual mode HDMI 2.0 implementations.

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post #57 of 81 Old 02-19-2015, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post
I agree about computer monitors. In fact this is why I bought an LG that has a dedicated 4:4:4 60p input for PCs. But most people aren't using their TVs for monitors.

But what you say about the future of UHD BD is pretty vague. What specifically are they going to extend? And what relevance will it have to actual content?
It is vague because the UHD Blu-ray spec. has not yet finalized and released. That won't happen for a few more months. However, BDA members have said in various interviews and statements over the past 6 months., and confirmed by some info I have from a private source/insider, that the spec. has extensibility provisions so that enhanced features can be added later. These will likely include support for such things a higher bit depths, higher fidelity chroma schemes (e.g., 4:2:2 and perhaps 4:4:4) and perhaps even support for 4K 3D. UHD is more than just a 4X increase in resolution and the initial UHD Blu-ray releases will offer some improvements, such as supporting 10-bit depth (instead of 8-bit used today) and support for wider color spaces. But further improvements can be gained by going to 12-bit depth, especially in support for High Dynamic Range video, and 4:4:4 chroma offers twice the vertical and twice the horizontal color resolution as compared to the 4:2:0 scheme used today for all consumer video and also for the 1st generation of UHD Blu-rays.

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post #58 of 81 Old 02-19-2015, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by benes View Post

So again the question is what specifically are we missing by not having 18Gbps HDMI other than that huge catalog of 4K 60p 4:4:4 10-bit movies.
I'm looking to buy a 55"-65" range 4k tv to use for a gaming PC display / blu-ray viewing. With 4k blu-ray potentially coming out this year, I'd like the TV to support PC gaming @ 60hz and support the 4k blu-ray spec if it allows for 12 bit color depth, as some hope, and h.265 codec.

see: http://www.stuff.tv/news/4k-blu-ray-...and-happy-eyes

Last edited by Oregon Chris; 02-19-2015 at 03:38 PM. Reason: link added
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post #59 of 81 Old 02-19-2015, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Geoff D View Post
So they have two chips wired up to one port? Wow.

I don't know if there's been a similar event in the US, but in Britainland Samsung invited AVF to check out one of their 2015 SUHD sets, and I was surprised to read the following:

"In addition there will be a chroma sub-sampling rate of 4:2:0 for 50/60/100/120p and 4:2:2 for 24/25/30p; along with support for HDCP 2.2 copy protection."

https://www.avforums.com/article/fir...d-review.11209

So, given the bolded part above it appears that even their super-duper brand new SUHD sets - which will meet the UHD BD standard for colour gamut and bit-depth - STILL have the 10.2 Gb/s HDMI silicon! I think that says it all as far as this myopic quest for 'true' HDMI 2.0 is concerned.

I appreciate that certain users will want 4:4:4 60p 4K for their computers or whatever (boy, that text sure looks crisp!), but in real world terms it simply won't be necessary for most 4K TV owners.
For me its about planned "obsoleteness". We may not need the throughput of 18gbps right now or maybe not even for another 4 or 5 years, but the hdmi 2.0 / hdcp2.2 chip for SI is avaible and they are all choosing not to use it / put it in their products. I can only assume its probably cheaper to do what they are doing now with choosing the one chip hdmi 1.4/hdcp 2.2 than upgrading to the new one. Kinda seems like a slap in the face as we know they could put the chip in their products now, but when the content does come that needs the full hdmi 2.0 spec they want us to buy their products again instead of having it now and being ready for the future.
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post #60 of 81 Old 02-19-2015, 03:56 PM
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It all boils down to...

If you want a TV (for whatever reason - it's your money) with FULL HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2, etc... - 2015 is not the year to buy a TV...

2016 "seems" to be the year for FULL HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2, etc - for TVs, receivers, 4K Blu-ray players, etc...

Samsung 78 HU9000 or LG 79/84 UB9800 or Sony XBR-75X940C (2015)
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Panasonic 65VT25

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4 k , blu-ray , hdcp 2.2 , hdmi 2.0 , uhd

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