Official 2015 Vizio 4K UHD M Series Thread - Page 112 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3331 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post
Yes that is exactly how it is supposed to work so you are good to go.
Awesome, thanks for the help!
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post #3332 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
What store and in what city do you work for?

Crickets.... I have asked the same question.

I find that Katzmaier usually gets it right based on my observations of some past sets that were "best" at the time. He also calls them as he sees them when the set has some serious deficiencies.

Quoting him:

"Picture quality

The M series delivered better overall picture quality than any 4K TV at its price we've tested, with the exception of the P series. Moreover it outperformed other significantly more-expensive 2015 4K sets in our lineup, including two models from Samsung and one from Sony, and also had a demonstrably better picture than Vizio's E series. That advantage stems from deeper black levels, which lend the M series better contrast and pop.

Color accuracy was as good as the competition or better, including Samsung's quantum-dot-equipped JS8500 SUHD, and most other aspects of image quality were very good as well. Video processing isn't quite up to Samsung snuff, but still solid and by no means a deal-breaker.
The P series did evince slightly better black level and blooming performance in side-by-side comparisons, so given a choice between the M and P at the same size and price, I'd probably go with P. That said the M series is still an excellent performer and they both deserve the same 8 in this category. I'm reserving the 9 for TVs that may be better, and the only 10 I've awarded this year belongs to OLED.
"


I'd say that his opinion is that this is not just an "OK" or "Good" TV


Regarding our "TV Salesman's" view of the local dimming performance. Gray Bars... nope... not on my set. Perhaps a course on how to take a TV out of "Store Mode" would be in order for our "TV Sales Expert"?
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post #3333 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Yeto View Post
I don’t know what is going on with Rtings, Cnet and the reviewer who posted on AVS but it is like they are “handcuffed” and cannot give TVs a true review. Consumer Reports, on the other hand has the M-series ranked where it should be and that is lower than LG, Sony and Samsung.
Hello Yeto, how are you doing?

Just a FYI, here are a couple more handcuffed reviewers from reviewed.com and Sound and Vision
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post #3334 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 07:02 PM
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Are there any TV from 2015 that currently rate a "9" from CNET?
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post #3335 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CRT Guy View Post
Are there any TV from 2015 that currently rate a "9" from CNET?
For Performance, the Sony XBRx900 did get a 9

http://www.cnet.com/products/sony-xbr-x900b/

Last edited by videoguy60467; 08-24-2015 at 07:19 PM.
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post #3336 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
Yes-
1. Press the Xfinity button
2 Select the Gear (settings) ENTER
3 Scroll down to Device Settings ENTER
4 Scroll down to Video Display ENTER
5 Scroll down to Video Output Resolution - (The Current res is displayed..) ENTER
6 Scroll down to select the Desired Output resolution (ex... 16:9, 1080p60 HD Press Enter

The screen will ask you if you want to keep the resolution. Select YES
Thanks for your help. After seeing the choices I decided to keep it at 1080P. I would only consider changing if they had a pure pass through option that would allow you to send whatever resolution the channel provides to the TV for a single conversion there. Like you I find that the X1 box does an excellent job and for the most part I'm very happy with the image my M series TV displays. When it's less than ideal it's the source, not the box or the TV.

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post #3337 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by SuperRob View Post
No they don't. They suggest it's the best VALUE for the dollar. That's a very different metric than just plain "best". And I can guarantee you the Samsung isn't the best, either.
Check out this page.
http://www.cnet.com/topics/tvs/best-...cture-quality/
What is the deal with Samsung? Sony and LG make TVs that can hold there own with Samsung. Why does everyone keep mentioning Samsung? The AVS guy even gave the impression that the M is better than the F8500 Samsung.

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Originally Posted by SuperRob View Post
The other TV's don't "know" anything. They're not sentient.
In the TV world it's called video processing.

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Originally Posted by SuperRob View Post
But all it takes to do that is have your local dimming array break at the right spot and you can have the blacklight completely off in that area. More arrays mean more fine control. For a budget TV to have this many dimming zones is unheard of. Name me another one for less than $2000 at 70" that can do that. Go ahead ... I'll wait.
As I said earlier, reviewers make a big deal out of this and it doesn't work very well.

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Originally Posted by SuperRob View Post
That said, they look black on the TV I have sitting on my mantle. How does it look in your living ... oh wait, that's right. You judge everything out of the box with no firmware updates or adjustment, just like RTINGS did. Way to armchair quarterback. I bet you win your Fantasy Football league every year, too.

The FALD issues RTINGS noted were fixed in the next firmware update. It looks GREAT. So if you're still looking at the un-updated TV in your showroom, you're doing yourself and your customers a disservice.
Please share your settings.
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post #3338 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
Moreover it outperformed other significantly more-expensive 2015 4K sets in our lineup, including two models from Samsung and one from Sony, and also had a demonstrably better picture than Vizio's E series. That advantage stems from deeper black levels, which lend the M series better contrast and pop.


CNET tests TVs in a completely dark room. With the panel that Vizio uses that black level advantage (if there is any because of their video processing) quickly diminishes. This is the only advantage he can find with this TV and I am not sure it is an advantage because of the video processing.

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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
Color accuracy was as good as the competition or better, including Samsung's quantum-dot-equipped JS8500 SUHD,


Most TVs today have good color accuracy so no surprise there but the colors will not be as vivid on the Vizio because the panel they use scatters light versus absorbing light.

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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
and most other aspects of image quality were very good as well.


He is vague here (maybe handcuffed) for some reason (advertising money maybe) unlike Consumer Reports.


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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
Video processing isn't quite up to Samsung snuff, but still solid and by no means a deal-breaker.


He finally got something right.

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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
I'd say that his opinion is that this is not just an "OK" or "Good" TV


Again, he is really big on the black level and don't forget he is reviewing the TV in a completely dark environment and I mean completely dark. Everything in that room is painted either dark gray or black and no bias light behind the TVs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
Regarding our "TV Salesman's" view of the local dimming performance. Gray Bars... nope... not on my set.
Please share your recommended settings for a bright environment and maybe I will give them a try.

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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
Perhaps a course on how to take a TV out of "Store Mode" would be in order for our "TV Sales Expert"?
Let's take the high road and try to stay professional.
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post #3339 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
Hello Yeto, how are you doing?

Just a FYI, here are a couple more handcuffed reviewers from reviewed.com and Sound and Vision
Thanks for sharing. I have already read those reviews. They basically say the M is a good TV as I have said but it not the best TV currently available.
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post #3340 of 16407 Old 08-24-2015, 09:08 PM
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Lmao tough choice guys..... listen to Cnet and Avsforum or Yeto. One person continuously derails the thread and post misinformation. Lets stop feeding the troll and talk more about the technical aspects of the tv.
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post #3341 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 05:22 AM
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Lmao tough choice guys..... listen to Cnet and Avsforum or Yeto. One person continuously derails the thread and post misinformation. Lets stop feeding the troll and talk more about the technical aspects of the tv.
If you're going to call someone out post the misinformation.
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post #3342 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 05:37 AM
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It depends on if there are parts to repair the problem. If they have parts they send someone out. If they don't then you need to ship it out or may get a replacement.


Sent from nowhere
In the event of a return, are the shipping charges on VIZIO or the customer?
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post #3343 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 05:57 AM
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Thanks for sharing. I have already read those reviews. They basically say the M is a good TV as I have said but it not the best TV currently available.
But Yeto, the other reviewers that you referenced as not being able to write a true review are also not claiming it’s the best TV available either.

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post #3344 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Equifan View Post
In the event of a return, are the shipping charges on VIZIO or the customer?

I believe Vizio like most all companies takes care of shipping if within warranty. The best way to find out however is just to ask Vizio


Sent from nowhere
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post #3345 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Yeto View Post
CNET tests TVs in a completely dark room. With the panel that Vizio uses that black level advantage (if there is any because of their video processing) quickly diminishes. This is the only advantage he can find with this TV and I am not sure it is an advantage because of the video processing.....
.....

Again, he is really big on the black level and don't forget he is reviewing the TV in a completely dark environment and I mean completely dark. Everything in that room is painted either dark gray or black and no bias light behind the TVs.

Please share your recommended settings for a bright environment and maybe I will give them a try.


Yeto - If you are actually interested in the settings see post 2748.

These are used in a bright family room for both daytime and evening viewing. If the lights are out in the room (not necessarily totally dark.. some light will enter from adjacent rooms...) I lower backlight to 55. I have also raised motion blur to 6 based on mpgxsvcd's suggestion. Since the firmware update, the motion processing on this set is very good, with no SOE using these settings. I also dialed down judder to 2 on the same advice. In a retail store environment, YMMV.

You make a big deal out of the kudos for black level in the reviews (totally black rooms), and then slam the set for poor performance in that area. You dismiss the rating because the set is reviewed in totally dark rooms. In actual use, the M's blacks and contrast are excellent in real world, bright conditions. The semi matte screen does a good job maintaining contrast, while not having major reflection issues. High gloss screens have great contrast, but in bright rooms reflections can often be a problem that is bigger than the contrast benefit.


If you are in fact a knowledgeable sales consultant, let me point out something that you may hopefully already know. Local dimming sets will almost always outperform even the best plasma TVs on a letterbox test. That's because the LED's in that area of the screen are OFF. Plasma's always have some residual illumination. Even the Kuro.

In Tokyo in 2008, I witnessed a demonstration of a prototype LED TV. Our Merchant team was brought into a TOTALLY dark room. We sat for 5 minutes as our eyes acclimated to the dark. The only thing we saw was a very, very faint glow of a TV. As the content was started, we discovered that there was a second TV to the right of the other set. We watched a variety of content. Both sets were outstanding, but the one on the right had deeper absolute blacks. Both sets had great color, and excellent detail in the dark areas of the picture.

What we had witnessed was a Kuro on the left. While we did not know the details, the set on the right was a predecessor to the Sharp Elite LED set. This was not a production TV. It was a demonstration of what was possible using LCD technology with a well designed local dimming system.

The point is this. In 2008, no one would have believed that any LCD based TV could possibly outperform a KURO on black level. The demo that we saw was to show us that technology was evolving, and to challenge our biases regarding the capabilities of various display types.

You often state that you own plasma, and that you'd never buy an LCD based set. That's fine, but things have changed. I came close to personally buying a Panasonic VT and a Samsung F8500, but I did not pull the trigger. I own Plasma, LCD, LED, and DLP sets in my home. All have their strong and weak points. For a period of time, my job was purchasing just Plasma sets for my company. I like the tech, but it's gone now.

As I mentioned before.. I fell into this set as a happy accident. (My son bought it) I am not a Vizio fanboy by any means. What I have discovered is that the M Series competes very favorably with some of the best sets on the market. That's not to say that it outperforms every other set in every way, but when your consider overall performance, it's very competitive among the some of the best LED sets available. When you add value into the analysis, it's pretty tough to beat.

There was a time when people would not consider Samsung or LG as a quality, high performing TV set. That changed in last 15 years. Hyundai was a joke. My Korean hosts would drive us around Seoul in Mercedes and imported Cadillacs... until the Equus was introduced. Now, Hyundai makes cars that are very competitive. In the late 90's I would never consider owning a Hyundai. I drove Infinitis. Now.. my family has owned several Hyundais with no issues.

Samsung and LG underwent major transformations in the last 15-20 years.
Perhaps Vizio is undergoing a similar transformation.

Challenge your biases.
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post #3346 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 07:10 AM
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Official 2015 Vizio 4K UHD M Series Thread

Videoguy - well written and thoughtful post. I agree with you on all points. Brands change and some have a difficult time shedding the brand stigma. Hence we have LG or "Lucky Goldstar". The older ones here will remember the level of electronics products that Goldstar produced. I am all about the best product for my dollar regardless of brand. Will be buying a Vizio when my new home is completed. I could spend more for a better picture, however, I cannot justify the added costs for the incremental improvement. That is a personal choice for each individual. (No matter how much they spend monthly on their mobile phone bill...)
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post #3347 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
But Yeto, the other reviewers that you referenced as not being able to write a true review are also not claiming it’s the best TV available either.
I could be misreading the AVS and CNET reviews but I am getting the impression that they are trying to mislead readers (in a round about way) that the M series is the best UHD/4k TV currently available. AVS even "sort of" says it bests the F8500 plasma (and in some areas it does) but I would think most people would say the F8500 is a better TV. Also CNET lists it here as the best TV.

http://www.cnet.com/topics/tvs/best-...cture-quality/

I have always said the M series is a good TV and I sell then almost every day that I work but I show customers other options as well.

Thank you for taking time to reply in a respectful manner.
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post #3348 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Yeto View Post
The reviews (Cnet and AVS) give the impression that the M is the best UHD/4k currently available.
I didn’t get that from either review. I got the impression that the Vizio TVs were simply the best value per dollar of any 4K TV but not that they were bar none the best. They spell out the weaknesses in those reviews of the TVs.

They even misstate some weaknesses in some of the reviews. However, I have never encountered any review that has stated the Vizio M-series is the “Best” 4K TV in all areas bar none. That simply would be a false statement that could easily be disproven.

I think your feelings have just been a little hurt because a few reviewers have finally called Samsung and Sony out. Their lower tier TVs(JU7100 and X850C) offer very little over the Vizio M-series yet they cost much more.

What is so ironic is that it is quite easy to make valid arguments against the Vizio M-series yet you seem to never make any valid arguments. Therefore, I will have to do your job for you. Here are some examples of legitimate arguments you could have made against the Vizio M-series and then everyone would have listened to you.

1. The Vizio M-series barely covers the REC.709 spec for colors. RTINGS.com only measured that it covers 49.6498% of the REC.2020 spec. The REC.709 spec covers approximately 47% of the REC.2020 spec. Therefore, the Vizio M-series is very susceptible to color clipping with any video that strays outside of the REC.709 specification.

Right now most movies are encoded to REC.709 but some TV shows and the Deep Color Blu-rays that are currently available are all capable of extending past REC.709. In addition future HDR content will extend well past REC.709 and the Vizio M-series won’t be able to take advantage of any of those extended colors because it was specifically designed to only cover REC.709 and not any more.

2. The larger sizes per dollar of the Vizio TVs is actually a drawback in terms of picture quality for cable/Satellite TV. When you upsize your TV without improving the resolution and compression of the input source you greatly increase the flaws of the source video. The low price of the Vizio TVs encourages people to buy bigger TVs than they already have and bigger than they probably need. That in turn highlights issues with cable/SAT sources and detracts from the normal TV viewing experience.

3. The Local Dimming in the Vizio M-series can cause brightness pumping in certain situations where white text is displayed over a dark background. This situation rarely occurs and turning off local dimming resolves it but it can be an issue for a few streaming programs.

See it is pretty easy to bash the Vizio TVs with legitimate arguments that really are something everyone should consider when purchasing a TV. Notice how black levels isn’t one of those arguments.
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post #3349 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Yeto View Post
I could be misreading the AVS and CNET reviews but I am getting the impression that they are trying to mislead readers (in a round about way) that the M series is the best UHD/4k TV currently available. AVS even "sort of" says it bests the F8500 plasma (and in some areas it does) but I would think most people would say the F8500 is a better TV. Also CNET lists it here as the best TV.

http://www.cnet.com/topics/tvs/best-...cture-quality/

I have always said the M series is a good TV and I sell then almost every day that I work but I show customers other options as well.

Thank you for taking time to reply in a respectful manner.
They list quite a few TVs under that link. How could they be saying multiple TVs offer the “Best” picture quality? Only one TV could truly have the “Best” picture quality.

In reality if you read what they wrote “The Vizio M series sits at this year's sweet spot of price and picture, and just happens to be 4K too.” You will see that they never claimed the Vizio M-series has the single best picture quality. They simply said it is a great value TV that offers great PQ with an exceptional price.

According to that site the TV with the absolute best Picture Quality in 2015 is the LG EG9600 series and I would agree with that at the moment. However, it is also ridiculously overpriced in my opinion and apparently in theirs as well.

“The incredibly expensive OLED-powered LG EG9600 series delivers the best picture quality we've ever tested.”
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post #3350 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 07:57 AM
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If you're going to call someone out post the misinformation.
Yup, I did already and I posted what you could have said that would have been true as well.
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post #3351 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 07:58 AM
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I’m looking at buying the M55-C2. I don’t know what the C2 means. I’ve seen codes B1, B2, B3, C1, C2, C3. Can someone explain what these codes mean.
I hear that the VA panel has better contrast than the IPS panels. Contrast is important to me so how do I know if a panel is VA or IPS.
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post #3352 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
Yeto - If you are actually interested in the settings see post 2748.

These are used in a bright family room for both daytime and evening viewing. If the lights are out in the room (not necessarily totally dark.. some light will enter from adjacent rooms...) I lower backlight to 55. I have also raised motion blur to 6 based on mpgxsvcd's suggestion. Since the firmware update, the motion processing on this set is very good, with no SOE using these settings. I also dialed down judder to 2 on the same advice. In a retail store environment, YMMV.

You make a big deal out of the kudos for black level in the reviews (totally black rooms), and then slam the set for poor performance in that area. You dismiss the rating because the set is reviewed in totally dark rooms. In actual use, the M's blacks and contrast are excellent in real world, bright conditions. The semi matte screen does a good job maintaining contrast, while not having major reflection issues. High gloss screens have great contrast, but in bright rooms reflections can often be a problem that is bigger than the contrast benefit.


If you are in fact a knowledgeable sales consultant, let me point out something that you may hopefully already know. Local dimming sets will almost always outperform even the best plasma TVs on a letterbox test. That's because the LED's in that area of the screen are OFF. Plasma's always have some residual illumination. Even the Kuro.

In Tokyo in 2008, I witnessed a demonstration of a prototype LED TV. Our Merchant team was brought into a TOTALLY dark room. We sat for 5 minutes as our eyes acclimated to the dark. The only thing we saw was a very, very faint glow of a TV. As the content was started, we discovered that there was a second TV to the right of the other set. We watched a variety of content. Both sets were outstanding, but the one on the right had deeper absolute blacks. Both sets had great color, and excellent detail in the dark areas of the picture.

What we had witnessed was a Kuro on the left. While we did not know the details, the set on the right was a predecessor to the Sharp Elite LED set. This was not a production TV. It was a demonstration of what was possible using LCD technology with a well designed local dimming system.

The point is this. In 2008, no one would have believed that any LCD based TV could possibly outperform a KURO on black level. The demo that we saw was to show us that technology was evolving, and to challenge our biases regarding the capabilities of various display types.

You often state that you own plasma, and that you'd never buy an LCD based set. That's fine, but things have changed. I came close to personally buying a Panasonic VT and a Samsung F8500, but I did not pull the trigger. I own Plasma, LCD, LED, and DLP sets in my home. All have their strong and weak points. For a period of time, my job was purchasing just Plasma sets for my company. I like the tech, but it's gone now.

As I mentioned before.. I fell into this set as a happy accident. (My son bought it) I am not a Vizio fanboy by any means. What I have discovered is that the M Series competes very favorably with some of the best sets on the market. That's not to say that it outperforms every other set in every way, but when your consider overall performance, it's very competitive among the some of the best LED sets available. When you add value into the analysis, it's pretty tough to beat.

There was a time when people would not consider Samsung or LG as a quality, high performing TV set. That changed in last 15 years. Hyundai was a joke. My Korean hosts would drive us around Seoul in Mercedes and imported Cadillacs... until the Equus was introduced. Now, Hyundai makes cars that are very competitive. In the late 90's I would never consider owning a Hyundai. I drove Infinitis. Now.. my family has owned several Hyundais with no issues.

Samsung and LG underwent major transformations in the last 15-20 years.
Perhaps Vizio is undergoing a similar transformation.

Challenge your biases.
@videoguy60467

I wish I could give you an award for this post. Just brilliant my man. Just brilliant. I quoted the whole post because I think it is good enough to justify a second read.
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post #3353 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 08:09 AM
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Question

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Originally Posted by DJSebolski View Post
Just posted a video of my flickering issue. Should I exchange it? It doesn't happen all the time and lasts only a few minutes.

https://youtu.be/DdmMZhsQaQA
What was the source of that video? I would definitely say that looks like a defect but I can’t be sure without examining that same source on another TV.
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post #3354 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 08:11 AM
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There was a time when people would not consider Samsung or LG as a quality, high performing TV set.

I bought my LG Plasma in Feb 2011 when it was down to $1200 at Costco. I had it THX calibrated by Michael Chen 3 months later.

It's been a fabulous TV with outstanding color and blacks (of course). So yes, they came a long way, in my opinion, and had some quality hardware at that time.

It's the benchmark that I will be judging my next TV against, because it's what I'm familiar with.

I don't really NEED a new TV, I just have upgraditis and want bigger.
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post #3355 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 08:13 AM
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Red face

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Originally Posted by stikle View Post

I don't really NEED a new TV, I just have upgraditis and want bigger.
Be careful how much bigger you go. I jumped from 55" to 80" and you will see the difference in compression artifacts if you do that. 55" to 70" is about as big as I would recommend.
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post #3356 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 08:19 AM
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I could be misreading the AVS and CNET reviews but I am getting the impression that they are trying to mislead readers (in a round about way) that the M series is the best UHD/4k TV currently available. AVS even "sort of" says it bests the F8500 plasma (and in some areas it does) but I would think most people would say the F8500 is a better TV. Also CNET lists it here as the best TV.


(link removed because I have less than 5 posts)

I have always said the M series is a good TV and I sell then almost every day that I work but I show customers other options as well.

Thank you for taking time to reply in a respectful manner.

On that list, they describe the M-Series as follows: "The Vizio M series sits at this year's sweet spot of price and picture, and just happens to be 4K too."


Personally, I read that as "We don't want everything on this list to be $3,000+ and the M-Series can hold it's own against pricier competition...especially to the untrained eye." The grain of salt that I always take every review with is that they're typically considering price as part of the conclusion. Should reviewers be a little clearer and not use words like "best"? Yeah, probably...but I don't think that they're deliberately trying to mislead people into believing a specific narrative.


All reviews are inherently subjective and the reviewers are only trying to help people find the best way to spend their money. For me, and many of the people in this thread, it's not unreasonable to consider the 2015 M-Series among the best TVs of the year because of the "bang for your buck" factor.
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post #3357 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 08:19 AM
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First of all, thank you for taking time out of your day to write such a lengthy reply. I really do appreciate it.


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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
Yeto - If you are actually interested in the settings see post 2748.

Yes I am interested. Post 2748 noted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
You make a big deal out of the kudos for black level in the reviews (totally black rooms), and then slam the set for poor performance in that area. You dismiss the rating because the set is reviewed in totally dark rooms. In actual use, the M's blacks and contrast are excellent in real world, bright conditions. The semi matte screen does a good job maintaining contrast, while not having major reflection issues. High gloss screens have great contrast, but in bright rooms reflections can often be a problem that is bigger than the contrast benefit.

This a quote from CNETs site.


“Aside from the bright-room portion of the test (see below), all CNET HDTV reviews take place in a completely darkened environment. We realize that most people don't always watch TV in the dark,…”


I don’t slam the set for poor performance in a room with ambient light but most reviewers, related to black levels, rave and rate the TV in an environment that even they say most people do not watch TV. I think it is unfair and misleading to someone who may not be aware as to how panel type and ambient light (DOI – distinctness of image) affect contrast. I am going to try your settings but what I have seen so far is that the M is good in a bright room but does not perform as well with TVs that use light absorbing clear panels in a brightly lit environment. Also, I disagree with CNET in that the M, in my opinion, does not have a semi-matte screen. I guess this is subjective but to me the M is just as reflective as the TVs that use light absorbing clear panels it is just that the M has a grayish cast because of the panel coating which scatters light therefore reducing contrast and the vividness of color. I would ask that you take one more look the next time you are in an electronics store and see if you might agree with this. Adjust your angel of reflection so that you can see the store overhead lights. I am not trying to down the TV I am just sharing what I am seeing through my eyes. I know this is subjective.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
High gloss screens have great contrast, but in bright rooms reflections can often be a problem that is bigger than the contrast benefit.

I agree, but again, please take one more look at the M versus TVs with light absorbing clear panels the next time you are in an electronics store and share your thoughts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
In Tokyo in 2008, I witnessed a demonstration………The demo that we saw was to show us that technology was evolving, and to challenge our biases regarding the capabilities of various display types.

Thank you for taking time to share this. Very interesting and great story. I can imagine the reactions in 2008.

Quote:
Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post
Samsung and LG underwent major transformations in the last 15-20 years. Perhaps Vizio is undergoing a similar transformation.

Vizio is definitely helping to keep pricing down and companies like LG, Samsung and Sony in check and that is good for all of us.


Again, thank you for taking time out of your day to share this information. I do appreciate it.
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post #3358 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 08:27 AM
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Another thing to consider. If the M65 costs about $1500 at best buy right now. What does that dollar amount get on the other brands? It is the same cost as the Sony W850C (1080p), $100 less than the Samsung J6300 (1080p), Sharp's LC-65UB30U is finally there at $100 more with a 4k screen, LG's UF6800 is $200 more.

Look I get it. Coming from an F8500 myself. Many of us miss plasma tech, but M series isn't a direct replacement for the F8500 or VT series...it is completely different technology. If it manages to reproduce black levels that made us love our plasmas and since that tech is gone--I say great! Because I need LED's to start doing what the plasma tech could do so I can enjoy watching TV again!

Finally, keep in mind the target of the M series. It isn't suppose to blow the JS8500 out of the water. It is their mid-range television. It's a Buick. Stop comparing it to the Cadillac.

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post #3359 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 08:41 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeto View Post
This a quote from CNETs site.

“Aside from the bright-room portion of the test (see below), all CNET HDTV reviews take place in a completely darkened environment. We realize that most people don't always watch TV in the dark,…”


I don’t slam the set for poor performance in a room with ambient light but most reviewers, related to black levels, rave and rate the TV in an environment that even they say most people do not watch TV. I think it is unfair and misleading to someone who may not be aware as to how panel type and ambient light (DOI – distinctness of image) affect contrast. I am going to try your settings but what I have seen so far is that the M is good in a bright room but does not perform as well with TVs that use light absorbing clear panels in a brightly lit environment. Also, I disagree with CNET in that the M, in my opinion, does not have a semi-matte screen. I guess this is subjective but to me the M is just as reflective as the TVs that use light absorbing clear panels it is just that the M has a grayish cast because of the panel coating which scatters light therefore reducing contrast and the vividness of color. I would ask that you take one more look the next time you are in an electronics store and see if you might agree with this. Adjust your angel of reflection so that you can see the store overhead lights. I am not trying to down the TV I am just sharing what I am seeing through my eyes. I know this is subjective.

Your argument appears to be that the majority of people don’t watch these TVs in a dark theater room like the reviewers have tested them in. Instead they only watch these TVs in brightly lit show rooms that they have installed in their house. Somehow I don’t think that is ever the case.

You also argue that the local dimming is not affective in brightly lit environments. However, you have never shown any evidence to support your conclusion and every one of us that has observed these TVs in the showrooms has come to the exact opposite conclusion.

Just show us what you are seeing. Prove your point instead of asking us to just trust you because “You sell these TVs every day”.
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post #3360 of 16407 Old 08-25-2015, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Be careful how much bigger you go. I jumped from 55" to 80" and you will see the difference in compression artifacts if you do that. 55" to 70" is about as big as I would recommend.
My plan is 60" Plasma to M75-C1.

I just have a feeling the 70", a 10" increase just wouldn't be enough.

I understand what you're saying though...
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