Official 2015 Vizio 4K UHD M Series Thread - Page 114 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3391 of 16411 Old 08-25-2015, 08:36 PM
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I've had my M70 for a little over a week(hung in my living room), and I have a 65JS8500 arriving Friday that's going in the bedroom. I looked at both for more hours than I care to admit in Best Buy. Both are fantastic TVs. I spent the extra on the Samsung because of the wider color gamut and HDR capabilities which will hopefully pay some dividends when like content arrives. I will say that I think the Vizio throws an outstanding picture and for the price I think it's an absolute no brainer for anyone wanting a 4K set with no 3D. I've even spent a lot of time looking at the OLEDs...and again, for the price of the Vizio....I honestly don't see how anyone...who has done their research, could pass on picking up an M series Viz. I'm coming from a Panny VT Plasma which was/is one of the best. The blacks on the Viz are very very very good!



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Originally Posted by RYANtheTIGER View Post
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post #3392 of 16411 Old 08-25-2015, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinH View Post
I've had my M70 for a little over a week(hung in my living room), and I have a 65JS8500 arriving Friday that's going in the bedroom. I looked at both for more hours than I care to admit in Best Buy. Both are fantastic TVs. I spent the extra on the Samsung because of the wider color gamut and HDR capabilities which will hopefully pay some dividends when like content arrives. I will say that I think the Vizio throws an outstanding picture and for the price I think it's an absolute no brainer for anyone wanting a 4K set with no 3D. I've even spent a lot of time looking at the OLEDs...and again, for the price of the Vizio....I honestly don't see how anyone...who has done their research, could pass on picking up an M series Viz. I'm coming from a Panny VT Plasma which was/is one of the best. The blacks on the Viz are very very very good!
How far do you sit and how does cable/satellite TV compare on it versus the Panasonic?

I'm pretty much between a 60" M Series, or a 48" 8500. They're similar in price. Keep in mind, I'm coming from a 33" TV (CRT), so even a 48" is a 15" difference.
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post #3393 of 16411 Old 08-25-2015, 08:54 PM
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Did you post up that guide that lists your settings for each type of input device ( FiOS, blu-ray etc )
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post #3394 of 16411 Old 08-25-2015, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRT Guy View Post
How far do you sit and how does cable/satellite TV compare on it versus the Panasonic?

I'm pretty much between a 60" M Series, or a 48" 8500. They're similar in price. Keep in mind, I'm coming from a 33" TV (CRT), so even a 48" is a 15" difference.
How far are your eyes from your TV and do you like to watch movies (video with black bars that reduce real estate)?
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post #3395 of 16411 Old 08-25-2015, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Yeto View Post
How far are your eyes from your TV and do you like to watch movies (video with black bars that reduce real estate)?
Eyes are five feet away. Assume I won't have too many black bars with 16:9 ratio.
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post #3396 of 16411 Old 08-25-2015, 09:12 PM
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I sit about 9 feet from the M70. I have ATT Uverse and everything looks very similar. I mainly watch ESPN, HBO, Showtime, FX, AMC, A&E etc...all pretty good quality. I think my Uverse HD DVR box outputs everything 1080i, and the Vizio upscales that to the panel. Blurays output via an Oppo 103D with Darbee engaged and the Oppo resolution set to 4K looks outstanding.

In my opinion...right now, I'd get the 60" Viz 10 times out of 10. With proper settings, the pic is just as good. By the time any content was out that might take advantage of the JS's capabilities..you're gonna want something much larger than 48"



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Originally Posted by CRT Guy View Post
How far do you sit and how does cable/satellite TV compare on it versus the Panasonic?

I'm pretty much between a 60" M Series, or a 48" 8500. They're similar in price. Keep in mind, I'm coming from a 33" TV (CRT), so even a 48" is a 15" difference.

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post #3397 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by CRT Guy View Post
Eyes are five feet away. Assume I won't have too many black bars with 16:9 ratio.
Wow, that's pretty close. I sit 2 feet away from a 27" computer monitor and at that distance I can't see the corners of the screen. Well, I can see the corners but not clearly. A human has a very small field of vision that they can see clearly and sleight of hand magicians are thankful for that.

I don't know about the movies you watch but just about every movie I watch has black bars meaning it was filmed in a wider screen format than 16:9 but you know what you watch and if you say you won't have that issue I believe you. If you don't think your viewing distance will increase anytime soon I would go with the the 48". I just think you will be sitting too close to take advantage of the 60" screen size (forget any arguments about picture quality and features). But better yet, don't take my advice, go to a video store with tape measure, measure five feet and stand in front of "any" 48 and 60 inch TV and see how the screen size "fits" your eyes. I think that is the only way you will know for sure what will be best for you.

Some other TVs you might want to consider in the 48 to 49 inch size would be the M49 Vizio, 830c Sony, 6400 Samsung and the 7600 LG. All of these are under $1000 on Best Buy's website. These TVs would save you $300 versus the M60 and if you ever increase your viewing distance you could maybe move the TV you purchase now to a bedroom or something and the money you save now could go towards the larger TV.

What ever you decide I hope you find a TV that will give you many years of enjoyment.
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post #3398 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 06:57 AM
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Dumb questions: Does game low latency mode have any effect on PQ when you're not playing a game. I currently have two custom settings that I switch back and forth from when playing PS4 or watching Direct/Blu. They are identical except for the GLL on/off. Does it make a difference? Also, Does the reduce motion blur setting work in conjunction with or against GLL setting? I'm a bit confused
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post #3399 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
Try playing this on the youtube app, or stream it from your laptop.. It wont display in 4k, but its a spiffy looking video and no way should it be grainy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNJdPyoqt8U
That video will have compression artifacts in the built in app because it can't use VP9 with the Vizio TV. Blu-ray is still the best way to get a baseline for 1080p content right now. A computer hooked up to the TV playing youtube is the best way to get a baseline for 4K content on Vizio TVs.
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post #3400 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
That video will have compression artifacts in the built in app because it can't use VP9 with the Vizio TV. Blu-ray is still the best way to get a baseline for 1080p content right now. A computer hooked up to the TV playing youtube is the best way to get a baseline for 4K content on Vizio TVs.
So long as the computer has 4k capable video card.
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post #3401 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Phyther View Post
Dumb questions: Does game low latency mode have any effect on PQ when you're not playing a game. I currently have two custom settings that I switch back and forth from when playing PS4 or watching Direct/Blu. They are identical except for the GLL on/off. Does it make a difference? Also, Does the reduce motion blur setting work in conjunction with or against GLL setting? I'm a bit confused
I don’t have my full settings video done yet. However, I will show in the video that you should only turn on GLL if you want the absolute lowest input lag at the expense of image quality and motion blur. GLL will turn off almost all processing and can make a significant difference in image quality.

We only turned it on before to get around the Soap Opera Effect issue. Now that Vizio fixed that issue with a firmware update it would be very rare that turning on GLL was necessary.

I don’t have the evidence compiled to back this claim up yet so you will just have to trust me for now. However, my video will show that it is a bad idea to turn on GLL even for games if you value image quality at all.
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post #3402 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 07:20 AM
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Did you post up that guide that lists your settings for each type of input device ( FiOS, blu-ray etc )
Still working on it. It is going to go into much more detail than just simply stating the settings. The recommendations I am going to make are contrary to most of the recommendations that have been made so far. However, I have very convincing evidence to back that up. That evidence has to be shown in video form though.

If I just stated all of my recommendations now with no supporting evidence they wouldn't make sense to anyone. Just be patient. It will be worth it in the end I promise.
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post #3403 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I don’t have my full settings video done yet. However, I will show in the video that you should only turn on GLL if you want the absolute lowest input lag at the expense of image quality and motion blur. GLL will turn off almost all processing and can make a significant difference in image quality.

We only turned it on before to get around the Soap Opera Effect issue. Now that Vizio fixed that issue with a firmware update it would be very rare that turning on GLL was necessary.

I don’t have the evidence compiled to back this claim up yet so you will just have to trust me for now. However, my video will show that it is a bad idea to turn on GLL even for games if you value image quality at all.
Well, I play first person shooters mostly, but I'm pretty average in skill. The best K/D ratio I've ever achieved on maintained is .95 on BF4. I think that lag has more to do with my average K/D ratio than input lag does lol. I play for mindless entertainment only and not terribly concerned with being elite. I'm currently playing Far Cry 4 and The Order: 1886 so imput lag isn't really an issue, and play BF4 for one or two rounds about once a week. I value PQ more than being elite at video games, so your advice would be to turn GLL off? What would you recommend for the reduce motion blur setting, given that I will be turning GLL off? Thanks for the help

Last edited by Phyther; 08-26-2015 at 07:32 AM.
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post #3404 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Still working on it. It is going to go into much more detail than just simply stating the settings. The recommendations I am going to make are contrary to most of the recommendations that have been made so far. However, I have very convincing evidence to back that up. That evidence has to be shown in video form though.

If I just stated all of my recommendations now with no supporting evidence they wouldn't make sense to anyone. Just be patient. It will be worth it in the end I promise.
I'm not doubting you, I just don't want them to get buried and then I'll miss it. It's so hard to keep up on this thread lol
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post #3405 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeto View Post
do you like to watch movies (video with black bars that reduce real estate)?

"Reducing real estate" is the wrong way to look at it. Phrasing it that way insinuates that the bars were added. When you see "black bars" on the top and bottom, you are watching the video in it's original aspect ratio. If you want to reclaim your "real estate", the video either has to be zoomed or cropped. Either way, you're loosing about 1/3 of the image, screwing up the image that the director intended. The bars aren't reducing real estate - they are there because there is no image to display in those areas.

Here's a little image I whipped up to demonstrate this:



Welcome to "Pan and scan".

And while we're at, the proper terminology for "black bars" is either Letterboxing:



or Pillarboxing (for 4:3 content):



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeto View Post
Wow, that's pretty close. I sit 2 feet away from a 27" computer monitor and at that distance I can't see the corners of the screen.

You can't see the corners of the screen when you go to a premium movie theater either. That's what leads to immersiveness.
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post #3406 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 08:33 AM
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Well, I play first person shooters mostly, but I'm pretty average in skill. The best K/D ratio I've ever achieved on maintained is .95 on BF4. I think that lag has more to do with my average K/D ratio than input lag does lol. I play for mindless entertainment only and not terribly concerned with being elite. I'm currently playing Far Cry 4 and The Order: 1886 so imput lag isn't really an issue, and play BF4 for one or two rounds about once a week. I value PQ more than being elite at video games, so your advice would be to turn GLL off? What would you recommend for the reduce motion blur setting, given that I will be turning GLL off? Thanks for the help
Yes turn GLL off for all gaming and turn Reduce Motion Blur to 9-10. I would still use HDMI Input 5 for this though simply to reduce the input lag as low as possible even if these settings don't achieve the ultimate lowest input lag which only GLL can do.

RTINGS.com still measured a 43.9 ms input lag with motion interpolation turned on for the Vizio M-series. That is still a respectable value in my opinion. Not elite gamer territory, but it offers reasonable lag with excellent picture quality.
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post #3407 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Yes turn GLL off for all gaming and turn Reduce Motion Blur to 9-10. I would still use HDMI Input 5 for this though simply to reduce the input lag as low as possible even if these settings don't achieve the ultimate lowest input lag which only GLL can do.

RTINGS.com still measured a 43.9 ms input lag with motion interpolation turned on for the Vizio M-series. That is still a respectable value in my opinion. Not elite gamer territory, but it offers reasonable lag with excellent picture quality.
I really appreciate the help. Does HDMI 5 diminish PQ vs. HDMI 1? Or restated, With GLL turned off and RMB at 9-10, between HDMI 5 and 1, which one offers the best PQ? This may be a vague question as PQ varies by set and viewer. I've used nearly all your advice re: settings and am happy with the results. I believe with this small tweak, I'll have finished messing with the settings and really enjoy this massive TV!

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post #3408 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 09:01 AM
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Has anyone used the Plex app with this TV

Has anyone played around with the Plex app on this TV? How well does it function compared to Plex on a Roku?

Thanks!
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post #3409 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyther View Post
I really appreciate the help. Does HDMI 5 diminish PQ vs. HDMI 1? Or restated, With GLL turned off and RMB at 9-10, between HDMI 5 and 1, which one offers the best PQ? This may be a vague question as PQ varies by set and viewer. I've used nearly all your advice re: settings and am happy with the results. I believe with this small tweak, I'll have finished messing with the settings and really enjoy this massive TV!

That all depends on source. HDMI 5 just doesn't offer any processing like the others do. So with sources that are 1080p and below, you may see a difference in PQ. Some people are OK with the difference, others prefer the processing on 1-4 over HDMI 5. The best advice is to test both for yourself and decide what YOU like the best everyone is different


Sent from nowhere
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post #3410 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
That all depends on source. HDMI 5 just doesn't offer any processing like the others do. So with sources that are 1080p and below, you may see a difference in PQ. Some people are OK with the difference, others prefer the processing on 1-4 over HDMI 5. The best advice is to test both for yourself and decide what YOU like the best everyone is different


Sent from nowhere
TY sir, will do. Thanks all for the help, I've learned a lot in this thread!
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post #3411 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stikle View Post
"Reducing real estate" is the wrong way to look at it. Phrasing it that way insinuates that the bars were added. When you see "black bars" on the top and bottom, you are watching the video in it's original aspect ratio. If you want to reclaim your "real estate", the video either has to be zoomed or cropped. Either way, you're loosing about 1/3 of the image, screwing up the image that the director intended. The bars aren't reducing real estate - they are there because there is no image to display in those areas.
I think you contradicted yourself. Also, if you watch a movie on a 16:9 screen that is filmed in a wider screen format than 16:9 you are loosing the available real estate that the TV has to offer. You are making something simple overly complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stikle View Post
Here's a little image I whipped up to demonstrate this:



Welcome to "Pan and scan".
Pan and scan applies to editing widescreen film to 4:3 format. That does not apply in this situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stikle View Post
And while we're at, the proper terminology for "black bars" is either Letterboxing:



or Pillarboxing (for 4:3 content):
The term "black bars" is commonly used and does no harm in this situation.






Quote:
Originally Posted by stikle View Post
You can't see the corners of the screen when you go to a premium movie theater either. That's what leads to immersiveness.
Yup, I will give you that one. That is why IMAX uses a curved screen. My fear in this situation is that if the OP is watching video that has a resolution of less than 1080p he may see some "stuff" that he does not want to see but only he can make that decision.

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post #3412 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
That all depends on source. HDMI 5 just doesn't offer any processing like the others do. So with sources that are 1080p and below, you may see a difference in PQ. Some people are OK with the difference, others prefer the processing on 1-4 over HDMI 5. The best advice is to test both for yourself and decide what YOU like the best everyone is different


Sent from nowhere
That should be 1080i and below, or below 1080p.
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post #3413 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 10:10 AM
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RE: That all depends on source. HDMI 5 just doesn't offer any processing like the others do. So with sources that are 1080p and below, you may see a difference in PQ. Some people are OK with the difference, others prefer the processing on 1-4 over HDMI 5. The best advice is to test both for yourself and decide what YOU like the best everyone is different

If I understand this correctly - - HDMI 5 does NOT upscale to 4K or offer any processing? The input label for HDMI 5 says 4K/60 Hz & 1080P. I currently have my Comcast X1 signal (1080P) hooked up to HDMI 5.

The other inputs are labeled 4K/30 Hz. I believe we are talking about refresh rates? (30 Hz versus 60 Hz)

For grins - - I tested out HDMI 2 versus HDMI 5. I definitely like HDMI 5 better. Could there be a technical reason for this or just my old eyes?

Lastly - - and to stir the pot....say I wanted to add the Nvidia Shield to my system. (For VP9 encoding playback and faster processing/streaming.) This is 4K/60 Hz streaming. Would it only work on HDMI 5? If it worked on the other inputs - - any signal degradation? Any difference at all?

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post #3414 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 10:15 AM
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I ordered the M70 from Sam's last night.

Last night I also read the Sound & Vision review of the M65. Most of the FALD-equipped sets that I've seen reviewed have virtually infinite contrast ratios, so I was surprised that the Vizio's ratio is about 47,000. The magazine states: "Unlike with most full-array local dimming, with a full black test pattern on the screen the Vizio’s LED lighting doesn’t shut down completely but rather simply goes very (but measurably) dark. At a peak white light output of 32.8 foot-lamberts, the black measured 0.0007 ft-L (this varied a bit from reading to reading, but most of my several readings clustered around 0.0007)."

Was this done in a recent firmware modification to address the criticism of "blooming" and "trailing" that were observed in earlier firmware incarnations?
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post #3415 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 10:38 AM
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HDMI 5 just doesn't offer any processing like the others do.
Actually that statement isn’t correct. HDMI 5 automatically eliminates some processing for 1080i and below resolutions. However, it does not automatically eliminate the motion interpolation controls, Active Pixels, or the Black Detail feature.

You have to turn on the GLL to eliminate the motion interpolation controls. However, I don’t believe there is any way to automatically eliminate the Active Pixels feature without explicitly turning that feature off.

I believe HDMI Input 5 can give identical image quality to HDMI 1-4 if the source is 1080p or higher.

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post #3416 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by JimLely View Post
I ordered the M70 from Sam's last night.

Last night I also read the Sound & Vision review of the M65. Most of the FALD-equipped sets that I've seen reviewed have virtually infinite contrast ratios, so I was surprised that the Vizio's ratio is about 47,000. The magazine states: "Unlike with most full-array local dimming, with a full black test pattern on the screen the Vizio’s LED lighting doesn’t shut down completely but rather simply goes very (but measurably) dark. At a peak white light output of 32.8 foot-lamberts, the black measured 0.0007 ft-L (this varied a bit from reading to reading, but most of my several readings clustered around 0.0007)."

Was this done in a recent firmware modification to address the criticism of "blooming" and "trailing" that were observed in earlier firmware incarnations?
Only the P-series had issues of blooming. The M-series did not have any blooming issues with its local dimming even right from the start.
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post #3417 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
RE: That all depends on source. HDMI 5 just doesn't offer any processing like the others do. So with sources that are 1080p and below, you may see a difference in PQ. Some people are OK with the difference, others prefer the processing on 1-4 over HDMI 5. The best advice is to test both for yourself and decide what YOU like the best everyone is different

If I understand this correctly - - HDMI 5 does NOT upscale to 4K or offer any processing? The input label for HDMI 5 says 4K/60 Hz & 1080P. I currently have my Comcast X1 signal (1080P) hooked up to HDMI 5.

The other inputs are labeled 4K/30 Hz. I believe we are talking about refresh rates? (30 Hz versus 60 Hz)

For grins - - I tested out HDMI 2 versus HDMI 5. I definitely like HDMI 5 better. Could there be a technical reason for this or just my old eyes?

Lastly - - and to stir the pot....say I wanted to add the Nvidia Shield to my system. (For VP9 encoding playback and faster processing/streaming.) This is 4K/60 Hz streaming. Would it only work on HDMI 5? If it worked on the other inputs - - any signal degradation? Any difference at all?
Wow! You win for the most incorrect statements in a single post.

HDMI 5 does not shut off “ALL” processing. It shuts off some features that pertain only to 1080i and below sources.

The TV always displays everything at a UHD resolution. It will convert all sources above or below 3840x2160 to its native UHD resolution.

Currently, no content is “True” 4K/UHD @ 60 FPS. Everything today is either 4K/UHD @ 24, 25, or 30 FPS native. You can receive a 4K/UHD @ 60 FPS signal through HDMI Input 5 or through the built-in streaming apps. However, that content will almost certainly have a native 24, 25, or 30 FPS frame rate.
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post #3418 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Wow! You win for the most incorrect statements in a single post. (I was quoting another member's comments - - thanks for your keen observation.)

HDMI 5 does not shut off “ALL” processing. It shuts off some features that pertain only to 1080i and below sources.

The TV always displays everything at a UHD resolution. It will convert all sources above or below 3840x2160 to its native UHD resolution.

Currently, no content is “True” 4K/UHD @ 60 FPS. Everything today is either 4K/UHD @ 24, 25, or 30 FPS native. You can receive a 4K/UHD @ 60 FPS signal through HDMI Input 5 or through the built-in streaming apps. However, that content will almost certainly have a native 24, 25, or 30 FPS frame rate.
So - any of the HDMI Inputs can be hooked up to the Nvidia Shield with 4K streaming since nothing is higher than 30 FPS native? The only reason I ask is the comment by David Katzmaier in his Vizio M review dated July 20th, 2015:

"Only one HDMI input, Input 5, is compatible with both newfangled HDMI connection protocols, namely HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 copy protection. The former allows 4K frame rates up to 60Hz, the fastest currently available. The latter allows the TV to accept copy-protected 4K content over HDMI, from devices like the Sony FMP-X10 media player, the Nvidia Shield playing back certain copy-protected content such as Netflix 4K, and forthcoming 4K Blu-Ray content. 2015 4K TVs from Samsung, Sony and LG offer multiple so-equipped inputs. The other four are version 1.4, meaning they can handle 1080p sources up to 60Hz and 4K sources up to 30Hz. Of those four, only two support HDCP 2.2."

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post #3419 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
So - any of the HDMI Inputs can be hooked up to the Nvidia Shield with 4K streaming since nothing is higher than 30 FPS native? The only reason I ask is the comment by David Katzmaier in his Vizio M review dated July 20th, 2015:

"Only one HDMI input, Input 5, is compatible with both newfangled HDMI connection protocols, namely HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 copy protection. The former allows 4K frame rates up to 60Hz, the fastest currently available. The latter allows the TV to accept copy-protected 4K content over HDMI, from devices like the Sony FMP-X10 media player, the Nvidia Shield playing back certain copy-protected content such as Netflix 4K, and forthcoming 4K Blu-Ray content. 2015 4K TVs from Samsung, Sony and LG offer multiple so-equipped inputs. The other four are version 1.4, meaning they can handle 1080p sources up to 60Hz and 4K sources up to 30Hz. Of those four, only two support HDCP 2.2."

For the shield, you would want to plug it into hdmi 5 to take full advantage of 4k media. While hdmi 1.4 allows up to [email protected] and there are other pots that have hdcp 2.2, hdmi 5 would be you most trouble free.


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post #3420 of 16411 Old 08-26-2015, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Actually that statement isn’t correct. HDMI 5 automatically eliminates some processing for 1080i and below resolutions. However, it does not automatically eliminate the motion interpolation controls, Active Pixels, or the Black Detail feature.

You have to turn on the GLL to eliminate the motion interpolation controls. However, I don’t believe there is any way to automatically eliminate the Active Pixels feature without explicitly turning that feature off.

I believe HDMI Input 5 can give identical image quality to HDMI 1-4 if the source is 1080p or higher.

Yes I should have stated most, not any. I apologize for any confusion. The processing is mostly related to below 1080p content. 1080p and above it should be a wash.


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