Samsung Shows 2015 UHD TV Lineup in NYC - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dsinger View Post
The conclusion that I have come to over the years after reading many professional reviews and following owners threads on TVs I am interested in is that if the TV reviewed was supplied by the TV MAKER (e.g Samsung) or VENDER (e.g. Sony) then the performance measured is at the VERY HIGH END of what the average buyer can expect. The reviewers aren't lying or hyping they are simply reporting results for sets hand picked by the supplier based upon their performance. If I were Samsung's head of marketing I would make sure what was sent out for review performed extremely well. I would and should be fired if I did otherwise.

The main exception we have to this are those reviews done by Chad B whose source is a dealers supply. No hand picked sets. His review of the JS9500 showed minimum black levels much higher than what DNice found. The downside of Chads reviews is that the set he reviewed may have below average performance.
And Dave, this is precisely why Robert will not allow demos to be part into the shootout. I think there was only one exception to this and even then Panasonic insisted there was nothing 'special' about it. In that case, because there was such a clamor to have that display in the shootout, and it wasn't currently available, Robert had no other choice.
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post #122 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 09:01 AM
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Are you speaking as a hypothetical, or are you referring to something specific?
Sorry, not going there.
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post #123 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 09:22 AM
 
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I still don't get what part of this concern of mine (and Ken's, etc.) seems so unusual to some. Why wouldn't someone be deeply interested in the connections between manufacturers and the reviewers?

If for nothing else just to know that there isn't a relationship there.
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post #124 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I still don't get what part of this concern of mine (and Ken's, etc.) seems so unusual to some. Why wouldn't someone be deeply interested in the connections between manufacturers and the reviewers?

If for nothing else just to know that there isn't a relationship there.
I certainly am interested. That's why I'm discussing it. As I noted, the reviewers from publications and websites are operating in their own self-interest as journalists. That means no, you don't take money from those companies.

If you are deeply interested in how reviewers operate, make friends with them and ask (nicely) about how they do their jobs. That's what I did, with both CNET and Consumer Reports.

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post #125 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I'll say this again, when a reviewer publishes a review, any review, that's so divergent from all other reviews, one needs to step back and ask why.

Are they smarter than all other reviewers or is there some other motivation driving their findings?
.
this is true,and it differentiate the debate and make it more solid.
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post #126 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 11:33 AM
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I think I saw these sets at Best Buy today (not the OLED), the image quality looked ok but I think it's worth waiting a while until HDR gets rolling. I'm currently on the PNF 64" which I got in october... no regrets yet.
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post #127 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I still don't get what part of this concern of mine (and Ken's, etc.) seems so unusual to some. Why wouldn't someone be deeply interested in the connections between manufacturers and the reviewers?

If for nothing else just to know that there isn't a relationship there.
I absolutely have that concern as should anyone that believes (as I did until recently) that these reviews are written in the same way as a news article in the economist would be. It is a terrible pity that you are limited to 1 website where you can be sure that they are not taking any money from the manufacturer, and to be honest their reviews are not particular good as far as I am concerned.

That being said, I don't think this event was billed as a review or whatever you want to call it and as such would expect everyone on stage to be compensated by the sponsor (who would honestly get on stage at a manufacturer sponsored product launch event and talk about a product and not get paid?). For those attending it is just another product launch/marketing event...but apart from that yes, I would love to know more about the financial relationship that exists between some of the independent review sites and the manufacturers.

It seems like a very grey area to me but surely they are required to disclose somewhere that they are compensated for the review by the manufacturer otherwise it is just advertising, right? Don't, Buzzfeed, Yahoo etc. have to clearly denote a paid article with the words "Sponsored Content"?
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post #128 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I absolutely have that concern as should anyone that believes (as I did until recently) that these reviews are written in the same way as a news article in the economist would be. It is a terrible pity that you are limited to 1 website where you can be sure that they are not taking any money from the manufacturer, and to be honest their reviews are not particular good as far as I am concerned.

That being said, I don't think this event was billed as a review or whatever you want to call it and as such would expect everyone on stage to be compensated by the sponsor (who would honestly get on stage at a manufacturer sponsored product launch event and talk about a product and not get paid?). For those attending it is just another product launch/marketing event...but apart from that yes, I would love to know more about the financial relationship that exists between some of the independent review sites and the manufacturers.

It seems like a very grey area to me but surely they are required to disclose somewhere that they are compensated for the review by the manufacturer otherwise it is just advertising, right? Don't, Buzzfeed, Yahoo etc. have to clearly denote a paid article with the words "Sponsored Content"?

News organizations absolutely do accept ad money from companies they occasionally write about. Ad sales and editorial are two different departments. For example, many newspapers publish restaurant reviews and also print ads for restaurants. Same goes for cars and movies and shows. There's nothing new there, and nothing to be specifically concerned about since it's been standard practice in the news and media in this country for a long, long time. Same goes for TV news, reviews, and etc.

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post #129 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I still don't get what part of this concern of mine (and Ken's, etc.) seems so unusual to some. Why wouldn't someone be deeply interested in the connections between manufacturers and the reviewers?

If for nothing else just to know that there isn't a relationship there.
Easy answer: they aren't as intelligent as you give them credit for and have comprehension issues?


This is starting to remind me of some wise men arguing with a fool (proverbs 29:9).
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post #130 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
And what makes me think that if BB changed their return policy because of abusive behavior like yours, you'd be the first to scream about it. We'd then get lectures from you about how companies like BB are not 'consumer oriented'.
And Home Depot did exactly that a few years ago. Gone are the days of cash returns without receipts. Gone are the days of buying power tools on a Saturday morning and returning them that night full of saw dust.

And I say kudos to them for making the change. It's those abuses that drive up prices for everyone else. And above all some of us were brought up just not to do stuff like that, I'm glad I was.
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post #131 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
News organizations absolutely do accept ad money from companies they occasionally write about. Ad sales and editorial are two different departments. For example, many newspapers publish restaurant reviews and also print ads for restaurants. Same goes for cars and movies and shows. There's nothing new there, and nothing to be specifically concerned about since it's been standard practice in the news and media in this country for a long, long time. Same goes for TV news, reviews, and etc.
That's a fair point and the car comparison did occur to me as relevant, however with the exception of displays (and probably because my knowledge of the space was very limited when I began buying any of the more sophisticated or high end displays) I have always been able to do my own research on a product or group of products prior to purchasing it, with the notable exception of things I don't really care about provided they perform the basic function without any major faults (e.g a washing machine).

With displays it is very difficult to do this type of research without having the equipment necessary and even then you have to get your hands on one to test it (and have the knowledge to do it), so you are somewhat forced to rely on professional reviews (and owners forums like this one) for information. With a car it is very easy to research (the tech is old, not very sophisticated and the specs are widely available and tested and rated independently ad nauseum) and you can test drive it to your hearts content in an environment that cannot be manipulated by the manufacturer before buying it .

With regards to ad sales and editorial being two separate departments serving the same master, that is true and many of those publications and news networks for that matter have been exposed for their obvious biases over and over again. However, the vast majority of a news publications content does not directly relate to its advertisers prime motivation, to use your example, the restaurant review is a small article in most newspapers, whereas the actual news makes up the majority of it. The impact of a manufacturer on the New York Times is minimal apart from perhaps the review of said product, the rest of the content is irrelevant to the manufacturer, the same cannot be said for a website that only reviews a small group of manufacturers products. As amusing as this may be to those more familiar than I with the machinations of such a website, until recently I had considered their main source of revenue to be advertising and site traffic (driven by Google ad words / automatic advertisement placement and not by direct relationships with the manufacturers), not the revenue paid directly to them by the manufacturers for doing reviews. As such determining the motivation for the reviewers opinion when the sites existence and profitability is predicated on the manufacturers providing them with revenue (if this is the case) relies solely on your opinion of the integrity of the reviewer. While this doesn't ensure in any way that a reviewer is biased it makes it much more difficult to discern to what extent their review was biased (if at all).

I love the idea of consumer reports, I just don't particularly enjoy its implementation. I would gladly pay for a similar service (albeit more focused and in depth) for niche high end products that gives a product two scores, one for its technical merits alone and one that takes into account its price.
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post #132 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Easy answer: they aren't as intelligent as you give them credit for and have comprehension issues?

This is starting to remind me of some wise men arguing with a fool (proverbs 29:9).
Let me know if you see any other articles that include details about the seminar, I would like to know more. Thanks.
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post #133 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 05:13 PM
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Samsung TV's very nice, but not worth the premium price in my humble opinion........
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post #134 of 152 Old 04-07-2015, 05:14 PM
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Let me know if you see any other articles that include details about the seminar, I would like to know more. Thanks.
Thank you for voluntarily contributing this info. While I don't always agree with your reviews/opinions I think it's absurd that this contribution to AVS by yourself as an AVS Writer has turned into a five page diatribe of utter nonsense that has nothing to with you simply attending a sponsored event but simply informally sharing feedback.

It clearly was not a professional shootout. What shocks me is how often recently you can enter a thread and read through and wonder what the discussion is as they all seem to get detoured to something that has nothing to do with the OP - there's a ton of Lost in Space threads that wander all over the place to the point it'll make you think you have Alzheimer because you scratch your head trying to recall the thread primary discussion points.

Come on Fess-up you left with a 65JS9500, next time hold out for a 78". Keep contributing please - we're adults and should be able to understand what meets our needs as it relates to the OP as the rest is puffery BS and no way to treat a Pro offering their impressions of the event. Ever attended an International Auto Show folks? It's hand/glove Press/Manufacturers from A-Z.

Thank you!

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post #135 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 12:54 PM
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Did anyone call them out on their color space talking point since that isn't relevant to any consumer content now or in the future? It is like say 'we can over saturate even more now!'
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post #136 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 03:46 PM
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BH is selling the 88JS9500 , shipping next week. I wonder why Samsung has not published the price on the official page. Everybody is selling close to 23K.

I was so happy without HDR...
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post #137 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 03:57 PM
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Just wanted to post to say I'm freaking loveing my JS9000 55". I'm not really a video guy and it took me some time to get use to having a poor off axis (purchased a wall mount to help roatate when needed), but now I'm seriously considering replacing my projector with a larger SUHD TV in a few years. Great motion, colors, control, it's just great and I know it's going to get even better in a few more years
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post #138 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 04:22 PM
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whats the difference though between the 9000 vs 9500 I wanted a 55" model and am stuck with the 9000 to use as a computer monitor.

Whats the benefit of the 9500 compared to the 9000 ?
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post #139 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Calibration stuff. What initial settings to use when drtting up for calibration, which mode(s) to calibrate, what hardware you'll need to ensure accuracy.

Yes, I figured that, especially considering the subject of seminar. I could easily see Samsung setting up a seminar after getting a quote like below.

quote from (pre-seminar) review:
Quote:
We doubt that the Samsung could reach 1,000nits but the lower HDR target of 500nits does seem achievable thanks to the peak illuminator feature.
Would a recently calibrated meter like SpectraCal C6 be adequate? It is wide gamut capable. Or would its field of view not be adequate to measure a small field highlight of 1000nits? What size field would you use to measure/calibrate highlight?

Do you calibrate to absolute cd/m2 of reference white, and let hightlights take care of themselves? Dolby seemed to suggest that they wanted a specific cd/m2 output for a specific bit setting.

Does it require specific range of contrast and backlight settings to realize good HDR performance?

Some of the calibration threads may be better place to discuss, but some of the owners/potential owners may be interested as well, even if they have no interest at all in playing around themselves. For example, I'm getting a "free" calibration as part of an extended warranty, and would like to point him to some of the things discussed at seminar since they appear to be important to getting good results.

Related question, did they discuss the Samsung UHD Calibration Tool mentioned below at 1.21 seconds in video from CES? I've heard you plug the meter into TV and choose to let it do its thing instead of laptop, but can find very little info on it. Might be a good starting point for a subsequent manual calibration.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm honestly a bit jealous of you for being able to attend, but thanks for a great write up.


Best regards, dave.

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post #140 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 05:49 PM
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whats the difference though between the 9000 vs 9500 I wanted a 55" model and am stuck with the 9000 to use as a computer monitor.

Whats the benefit of the 9500 compared to the 9000 ?
9500 is back lit instead of side and also comes with a camera. The 9500 is probably brighter and has more back light control, but I'm ok withe the performance of the JS9000. If I could, I would have sprung the extra dough for the 9500.
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post #141 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 05:51 PM
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Yes, I figured that, especially considering the subject of seminar. I could easily see Samsung setting up a seminar after getting a quote like below.

quote from (pre-seminar) review:

Would a recently calibrated meter like SpectraCal C6 be adequate? It is wide gamut capable. Or would its field of view not be adequate to measure a small field highlight of 1000nits? What size field would you use to measure/calibrate highlight?

Do you calibrate to absolute cd/m2 of reference white, and let hightlights take care of themselves? Dolby seemed to suggest that they wanted a specific cd/m2 output for a specific bit setting.

Does it require specific range of contrast and backlight settings to realize good HDR performance?

Some of the calibration threads may be better place to discuss, but some of the owners/potential owners may be interested as well, even if they have no interest at all in playing around themselves. For example, I'm getting a "free" calibration as part of an extended warranty, and would like to point him to some of the things discussed at seminar since they appear to be important to getting good results.

Related question, did they discuss the Samsung UHD Calibration Tool mentioned below at 1.21 seconds in video from CES? I've heard you plug the meter into TV and choose to let it do its thing instead of laptop, but can find very little info on it. Might be a good starting point for a subsequent manual calibration.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm honestly a bit jealous of you for being able to attend, but thanks for a great write up.

Video

Best regards, dave.
Dave, it seems like you've been following all of this HDR content pretty closely, so I'm curios as to your perspective on this: http://www.businessinsider.com/netfl...ands-on-2015-1


"Samsung showed off some impressive HDR 4K televisions at CES this week, but LG is arguably further along, with an official partnership with Netflix that will introduce HDR streaming later this year.

While LG hasn't publically shown off or announced an HDR TV, the demo I saw was meant to show that LG has the technology to introduce HDR TVs but is busy fine-tuning it with the help of colorists and other film color-graders who will help the company nail all the subtle tweaks necessary to demonstrate the most accurate and impressive range of colors.

The LG display executive acknowledged he was "jealous" of Samsung's HDR demo (see below), but he argued that Samsung cut corners to make a flashy public demonstration, "paying a movie studio $2 million" to tailor-make an HDR demo for its specific display."

Do you believe the JS9500 will have the ability to properly display the HDR-encoded content (like the new season of Marco Polo) that Netfilx will be launching later this year?
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post #142 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 06:07 PM
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Dave, it seems like you've been following all of this HDR content pretty closely, so I'm curios as to your perspective on this: http://www.businessinsider.com/netfl...ands-on-2015-1


"Samsung showed off some impressive HDR 4K televisions at CES this week, but LG is arguably further along, with an official partnership with Netflix that will introduce HDR streaming later this year.

While LG hasn't publically shown off or announced an HDR TV, the demo I saw was meant to show that LG has the technology to introduce HDR TVs but is busy fine-tuning it with the help of colorists and other film color-graders who will help the company nail all the subtle tweaks necessary to demonstrate the most accurate and impressive range of colors.

The LG display executive acknowledged he was "jealous" of Samsung's HDR demo (see below), but he argued that Samsung cut corners to make a flashy public demonstration, "paying a movie studio $2 million" to tailor-make an HDR demo for its specific display."

Do you believe the JS9500 will have the ability to properly display the HDR-encoded content (like the new season of Marco Polo) that Netfilx will be launching later this year?
samsung openly said at CES that they had the HDR footage specially made for them, so they werent exactly hiding that.

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post #143 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 09:48 PM
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The LG display executive acknowledged he was "jealous" of Samsung's HDR demo (see below), but he argued that Samsung cut corners to make a flashy public demonstration, "paying a movie studio $2 million" to tailor-make an HDR demo for its specific display."

Do you believe the JS9500 will have the ability to properly display the HDR-encoded content (like the new season of Marco Polo) that Netfilx will be launching later this year?

Good question fafrd,

At this point would say 90% sure yes. While js9500 only played "special" stuff from fox at ces and initial reviews, latest reviews had it playing content from other studios that was originally encoded for dolby vision (ie oblivion clip). Either js9500 is flexible in what it can handel, or content providers are moving to open hdr standard. Either is good

Samsung places too many eyeballs behind new sets for Netflix to ignore. Lg may have gotten head start with Netflix, but vizio and dolby had headstart with hdr until Samsung showed up with uhd alliance.

Best regards, dave
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post #144 of 152 Old 04-09-2015, 10:14 PM
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Good question fafrd,

At this point would say 90% sure yes. While js9500 only played "special" stuff from fox at ces and initial reviews, latest reviews had it playing content from other studios that was originally encoded for dolby vision (ie oblivion clip). Either js9500 is flexible in what it can handel, or content providers are moving to open hdr standard. Either is good

Samsung places too many eyeballs behind new sets for Netflix to ignore. Lg may have gotten head start with Netflix, but vizio and dolby had headstart with hdr until Samsung showed up with uhd alliance.

Best regards, dave

Guess we'll just have to sit and tight and watch how the story unfolds.

I just found this (from today): http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-ultra-hd-oled

Mirer is the Netflix VP of Device Partner Ecosystem:


"Mirer noted that progress is being made toward settling an industry standard for HDR production and encoding, though he acknowledged that more than one entity was promoting somewhat different parameters for an HDR signal—a reference to the jockeying currently going on between Dolby, with its Dolby Vision system, and whatever is being crystalized by the Ultra HDTV Alliance, a group of manufacturers, studios, and post houses. But he seemed confident Netflix would deliver HDR programming in calendar 2015. Fortunately, when it does, it won’t be a huge strain on bandwidth: adding both the brighter highlights of HDR and the wider “digital cinema” or P3 color gamut that’s also promised will add only 2 megabits per second of data to the typical Netflix 4K stream, bringing it from 15 mbps to about 17 mbps.
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post #145 of 152 Old 04-10-2015, 03:37 AM
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Anyone know if DTS headphone x will be supported on this TV? I see the logo under licensing in the manual???
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post #146 of 152 Old 04-10-2015, 01:09 PM
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Just came from Best Buy. They have the 78JS9500 in the system, delivery in 2 weeks, 15K. There is no sign of any 78JS9100, mentioned by Samsung in NYC last week.

I was so happy without HDR...
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post #147 of 152 Old 04-11-2015, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post
Just came from Best Buy. They have the 78JS9500 in the system, delivery in 2 weeks, 15K. There is no sign of any 78JS9100, mentioned by Samsung in NYC last week.

Thanks slimoli. That confirms I'll keep the 65. I obviously like js9500 since I own one, but not neaerly enough to take bb up on easy trade up at that silly price. 65 will tide me over till emissive matures a bit. would get a 4k oled 65 before paying 15k for similar compromises as my 65.
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post #148 of 152 Old 04-15-2015, 06:21 AM
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post #149 of 152 Old 04-22-2015, 06:13 AM
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I'm a bit sad that my next TV will probably not be a Samsung. Sorry, but the "curved" idea does not appeal to me in any way at all. Seems quite stupid actually.
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post #150 of 152 Old 04-22-2015, 08:12 AM
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I'm a bit sad that my next TV will probably not be a Samsung. Sorry, but the "curved" idea does not appeal to me in any way at all. Seems quite stupid actually.
Reminds you of like the bubble effect on a bad CRT just inverted? lol I don't mind it much, but wish it could go from flat to curve. Would need to be much bigger screen too in order to be useful.
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