**OFFICIAL** 2015 Samsung 4K SUHD JS8500 Series TV Thread - Page 515 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15421 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by toonontherun View Post
Any one else noticed any anomalies after 1443 update.

I have and mentioned it many pages ago. Nothing to do with the PQ...it just completely hosed the usability of the remote. I lost all specific functionality/control of my STB. Many people weren't impacted. I was one of the unfortunate ones.
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post #15422 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Longballsd View Post
Is anybody really going to watch this TV with Smart LED off and all of the Black level settings off?? This seems like a pointless test to me.

The last picture looks fine to me. When you're watching content and it's not noticeable then I think it's good right?

I think there are too many people looking for issues that will affect the TV in less than 5% of the time you're viewing it. That's just my 2 cents.
That's where I'm going with this because I don't want to get an exchange and have a panel that's worse and have to return it. if I return this tv and we have to go through another tv buying experience my wife will kill me 😓. I guess I'm in wait and see mode


I am wondering though if I'm supposed to do clearly see the smart led function working when say the credits role after a movie I can clearly tell what "zones" are being turned on?
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Last edited by Ajresendez; 02-17-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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post #15423 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Longballsd View Post
Is anybody really going to watch this TV with Smart LED off and all of the Black level settings off?? This seems like a pointless test to me.

The last picture looks fine to me. When you're watching content and it's not noticeable then I think it's good right?

I think there are too many people looking for issues that will affect the TV in less than 5% of the time you're viewing it. That's just my 2 cents.

I see the clouding when watching TV and streaming a lot. You say 5% of the time is acceptable so during a two hour movie you will have accumulated 6 minutes of content that's displaying visible clouding, that's acceptable to you? You can factors that down to 1 second of clouding every 20 seconds. I know you picked 5% arbitrarily but even 1% of the time visibility clouding is not acceptable.

Current gear: UN65JS8500 (Main TV), M40-C2(Guestroom TV), I1D3(Using HCFR)
Retired: TH-50PX80U, M55-C2 (Returned)
Duds: 2x XBR-65X930D(bent frame, 3D unwatchable and clouding), P65-C1(3x Yellow banding, dead pixels), UN65JS8500(blue bleed) UN60J6200 (Returned, dead pixels), M65-C1(3x Defective units, all dead pixel and yellow banding)
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post #15424 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by wrathloki View Post
So I took some pictures of the "blue glow" I was talking about to show you what I mean. The content was the Mississippi Grind blu ray which is pretty high quality and has plenty of dark scenes to highlight the problem.

Notice in this picture the shadowy back of the woman on the right lights up at about the same height and up as the bright bar on the left side of the screen. A little bit hard to see on here but obvious in person.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...3&d=1455682870

This picture is a mess. The blacks are lit up blue all over the place but especially bad on the left side. I believe this is because his bright white shirt is causing the blacks to light up.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...1&d=1455682919
So this begs the question. Is this normal or are our sets defective? I'm no expert but being this only happens in dark scenes I'm willing to betting its a limitation of the set we are just noticing.

Current gear: UN65JS8500 (Main TV), M40-C2(Guestroom TV), I1D3(Using HCFR)
Retired: TH-50PX80U, M55-C2 (Returned)
Duds: 2x XBR-65X930D(bent frame, 3D unwatchable and clouding), P65-C1(3x Yellow banding, dead pixels), UN65JS8500(blue bleed) UN60J6200 (Returned, dead pixels), M65-C1(3x Defective units, all dead pixel and yellow banding)
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post #15425 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 11:25 AM
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Thumbs up For Those Thinking About the 65JS8500

While following this forum for over a year (15,400+ posts) I was still a little concerned about getting the 65" version of the JS8500. I am EXTREMELY glad I went ahead and purchased it from Crutchfield during this last sale.

The Samsung is absolutely awesome ONCE I got the calibration settings correct (we tried several but my wife who is an artist / interior designer only liked DENPOM's setttings). But thanks to all who put them out there so I could try them as it made it much easier in the long run.

The only real issues I had were with my Emotiva XMC-1 and the Samsung Connect Box but I finally got everything working after a bit of trial and error on my part. Overall my wife and I are really enjoying the TV a lot (the silver bezel doesn't bother her either, yea) and I'm glad I got the 65" size vs 55" since the older Samsung it replaced, while only 52" seemed almost as big due to the large borders around the TV.

I'm sorry to continue to hear issues out there for some of you. I'm still curious about the percent of issues for this latest production run.
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post #15426 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post
So this begs the question. Is this normal or are our sets defective? I'm no expert but being this only happens in dark scenes I'm willing to betting its a limitation of the set we are just noticing.
Good question.
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post #15427 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post
So this begs the question. Is this normal or are our sets defective? I'm no expert but being this only happens in dark scenes I'm willing to betting its a limitation of the set we are just noticing.
i'm still voting as defective here but you'll find out soon enough with your replacement.
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post #15428 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post
I see the clouding when watching TV and streaming a lot. You say 5% of the time is acceptable so during a two hour movie you will have accumulated 6 minutes of content that's displaying visible clouding, that's acceptable to you? You can factors that down to 1 second of clouding every 20 seconds. I know you picked 5% arbitrarily but even 1% of the time visibility clouding is not acceptable.
What's acceptable to me might not be to somebody else. I'm lucky I guess because I don't have any of these issues. Under normal viewing I have zero clouding. I don't know what level would bother you or anybody else. I said 5% but that might be too high for some of these issues.
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post #15429 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 11:57 AM
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I'm having issues with some apps - YouTube and Amazon mostly. Sometimes Netflix. YouTube today is just going to a black screen when I click on it. Amazon just won't connect and gives me an error message. Previously (a few days ago and going back to when I bought the tv a few weeks ago) YouTube would sometimes go to a bright red screen and get stuck, but I was able to unplug and re-power he TV and it would fix it. Now nothing works. Is there a way to reset these apps when they freeze or stop working? It's not like a phone or even computer where you can force shut down an app. Or is there a way? Anyone else having these issues?
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post #15430 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 12:43 PM
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I'm having issues with some apps - YouTube and Amazon mostly.
reset the Smart Hub from the Menu settings.
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post #15431 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sranda03 View Post
Hey Guys.... 2 questions... First I want to say that I have been loving this TV so far and thanks for the picture calibrations recommendations they look great!

So 2 questions... I have my T.V mounted on my wall and apparently my wall isn't straight. There seems to be a dip in the middle of the wall which is effecting the distance the TV is on the mount from the wall from each side of the TV. So for instance I can fit my fingers underneath the left bottom corner of the TV fitting between the wall and the TV. On the bottom right side I cannot fit my fingers between the space of the wall and TV. So the TV looks slanted a little bit when mounted. I had a 46 " TV in this same spot but never noticed it since it was really far off the wall with an older mount and the TV was smaller so it didn't hit the effected space on the wall...

To quick fix this issue I put a hard piece of styrofoam material behind the bottom right of the TV so it pushes the TV out a little bit.... So my question is.... Can this be bad for the TV? Will it cause pixel problems down the road? The plastic on the back of the TV seems very secure and it doesnt seem to be in too much stress but figured i would ask you guys your opinion... Please see the attached photo:
Put some shims behind the wall mount. Twisting the TV case seems like a bad idea.
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post #15432 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post
So this begs the question. Is this normal or are our sets defective? I'm no expert but being this only happens in dark scenes I'm willing to betting its a limitation of the set we are just noticing.
I think Samsung will call it normal. If you're within the return/exchange window however, by all means.
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post #15433 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by denpom View Post
reset the Smart Hub from the Menu settings.
That worked thanks. Good to know that exists. Although having to log back into every app is a pain in the butt. Hopefully it lasts. But thanks man!
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post #15434 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 01:00 PM
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i'm stillvoting as defective here but you'll find out soon enough with yourreplacement.



Replacement.... If I box this up I'm done with the JS8500. I would have to rental a truck again and once again put my wife through the event of lifting two 60lbs TV over our heads (yes the bottom of my TV is eye level when we are standing, I know it’s not optimal). The JS8500 is the fifth TV we have put up on the wall since November. We cannot risk a second bad JS8500, it’s not worth our time or our backs. Let me pose this question. What are the odds that the TV will be better and what are the odds the TV will be worse? I want to love the JS8500! It has great PQ, a solid WCG for HDR, great 3D, good specs and a GREAT PRICE! However the backlighting implantation and quality is subpar. We all know edge lit tech isn’t great but if properly implemented it can work, however on the JS8500 it was not done well.


Yesterday I did some 1% black testing and also decided for a second time to massage my panel with a microfiber in an attempt to level out the clouding, It produced absolutely no effect on the clouding. However I got a very good look at all my major clouding spots. So this morning I was watching "The man in the high castle" and I noticed that the blue hue I was seeing was clearly clouding and frankly it infuriated me to the point which I wanted to return the set and move on. I paused the show and adjust the backlight, smart LED, dynamic contrast and the clouding was still noticeable. Not only does my TV have clouding that’s visible during shows, it has two blue bleed corner (I loosened fours screw with no effect) and I also have some light visible banding. Now my wife probably doesn't notice all these anomaly's but I do. After five defective TVs I'm just burned out .

Current gear: UN65JS8500 (Main TV), M40-C2(Guestroom TV), I1D3(Using HCFR)
Retired: TH-50PX80U, M55-C2 (Returned)
Duds: 2x XBR-65X930D(bent frame, 3D unwatchable and clouding), P65-C1(3x Yellow banding, dead pixels), UN65JS8500(blue bleed) UN60J6200 (Returned, dead pixels), M65-C1(3x Defective units, all dead pixel and yellow banding)
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post #15435 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 01:02 PM
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All of my issues are non PQ related. Luckily I guess. Another issue I am having, and I've seen this mentioned in other threads in the past although I can't find a solution - about 15 seconds after the Receiver and TV are powered on (usually to CBL/SAT input mode in my case), the Samsung sends a signal to the receiver to switch to TV Audio input. The sound goes silent and the picture goes to the Marantz logo. This has to manually switched back to CBL / SAT. Is there a remedy for this?
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post #15436 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 01:25 PM
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Really appreciate this forum and the information on it. Finally registered and wanted to chime in about my 65" 8500. I purchased at BestBuy a few weeks ago when they went on sale again before the Superbowl. I noticed right away that the bottom left corner has the light bleed issue (brighter when the screen is showing lighter colors). I talked to the folks at BB and they were pretty good about things. Looking at their demo unit closer I noticed it had terrible light bleed up and down both sides. They suggested I get a different TV model/brand if I was worried about it and taking a chance on a replacement.

They also offered to do an exchange, they ordered up a new one and brought it out today. I had the guys unbox it and we plugged it in and got it to the setup screen, which is an all white background. The lower left corner still had some bleed, not as bad as what I currently have, but the right corner also had some bleed. I wasn't willing to trade one corner with issues for two, so I rejected the exchange.

Now I'm trying to figure out what to do. Should I contact Samsung and try to get them to evaluate/repair it? I really like the TV and it fits my entertainment setup (I need a center TV stand, can't do outside legs). Anybody have any advice about what to say or not to say to Samsung support?
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post #15437 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Ajresendez View Post


So the first and second picture are with backlight 10 and smart led off with everything else that effects black levels off.

The last one is with the settings as they are on the first page for standard mode.

Pics make it look way worse in normal viewing I can definitely live with it as it only comes up noticeably in credits mostly where you can tell the smart led is doing its thing...

Get Samsung to replace panel or keep what I have? I don't have any other issues with the panel other than this clouding.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Looks way better then my set. No edge bleed, very light clouding. Looks great!

Current gear: UN65JS8500 (Main TV), M40-C2(Guestroom TV), I1D3(Using HCFR)
Retired: TH-50PX80U, M55-C2 (Returned)
Duds: 2x XBR-65X930D(bent frame, 3D unwatchable and clouding), P65-C1(3x Yellow banding, dead pixels), UN65JS8500(blue bleed) UN60J6200 (Returned, dead pixels), M65-C1(3x Defective units, all dead pixel and yellow banding)
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post #15438 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by massam View Post
Really appreciate this forum and the information on it. Finally registered and wanted to chime in about my 65" 8500. I purchased at BestBuy a few weeks ago when they went on sale again before the Superbowl. I noticed right away that the bottom left corner has the light bleed issue (brighter when the screen is showing lighter colors). I talked to the folks at BB and they were pretty good about things. Looking at their demo unit closer I noticed it had terrible light bleed up and down both sides. They suggested I get a different TV model/brand if I was worried about it and taking a chance on a replacement.

They also offered to do an exchange, they ordered up a new one and brought it out today. I had the guys unbox it and we plugged it in and got it to the setup screen, which is an all white background. The lower left corner still had some bleed, not as bad as what I currently have, but the right corner also had some bleed. I wasn't willing to trade one corner with issues for two, so I rejected the exchange.

Now I'm trying to figure out what to do. Should I contact Samsung and try to get them to evaluate/repair it? I really like the TV and it fits my entertainment setup (I need a center TV stand, can't do outside legs). Anybody have any advice about what to say or not to say to Samsung support?


This is my fear. Looks like the Samsung never fixed the QC on this sets. Good specs, good price = bad quality!

Current gear: UN65JS8500 (Main TV), M40-C2(Guestroom TV), I1D3(Using HCFR)
Retired: TH-50PX80U, M55-C2 (Returned)
Duds: 2x XBR-65X930D(bent frame, 3D unwatchable and clouding), P65-C1(3x Yellow banding, dead pixels), UN65JS8500(blue bleed) UN60J6200 (Returned, dead pixels), M65-C1(3x Defective units, all dead pixel and yellow banding)
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post #15439 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 01:44 PM
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Not sure what this means? Five nines?
99.999% availability. IOW, no room for failure, ever, pretty much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eviljack View Post
Sure. I agree. But how (or maybe why) do you propose one own an articulating mount without moving it?
The cable gets fastened to something on the monitor that doesn't move. If that's not practical, we include a loop of cable there so that the loop gets most of the stress and not the connector. Then sufficient slack, looping the cable at joints if necessary to reduce the amount of cable bending.
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post #15440 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 01:48 PM
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Now I'm trying to figure out what to do. Should I contact Samsung and try to get them to evaluate/repair it?
If it's true that Samsung repairs these TVs with "certified" panels -- as opposed to non-certified panels that went into the sets to begin with -- then it might be worth having them replace the panel. That's risky, I know, but could prove beneficial.

---
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post #15441 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by eviljack View Post
All of my issues are non PQ related. Luckily I guess. Another issue I am having, and I've seen this mentioned in other threads in the past although I can't find a solution - about 15 seconds after the Receiver and TV are powered on (usually to CBL/SAT input mode in my case), the Samsung sends a signal to the receiver to switch to TV Audio input. The sound goes silent and the picture goes to the Marantz logo. This has to manually switched back to CBL / SAT. Is there a remedy for this?
No I don't believe so. There is some issue with ARC and Denon/Marantz receivers that causes this. It's one of the reasons I chose to use optical rather than HDMI for the app audio.
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post #15442 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SnipeUout View Post


Replacement.... If I box this up I'm done with the JS8500. I would have to rental a truck again and once again put my wife through the event of lifting two 60lbs TV over our heads (yes the bottom of my TV is eye level when we are standing, I know it’s not optimal). The JS8500 is the fifth TV we have put up on the wall since November. We cannot risk a second bad JS8500, it’s not worth our time or our backs. Let me pose this question. What are the odds that the TV will be better and what are the odds the TV will be worse? I want to love the JS8500! It has great PQ, a solid WCG for HDR, great 3D, good specs and a GREAT PRICE! However the backlighting implantation and quality is subpar. We all know edge lit tech isn’t great but if properly implemented it can work, however on the JS8500 it was not done well.


Yesterday I did some 1% black testing and also decided for a second time to massage my panel with a microfiber in an attempt to level out the clouding, It produced absolutely no effect on the clouding. However I got a very good look at all my major clouding spots. So this morning I was watching "The man in the high castle" and I noticed that the blue hue I was seeing was clearly clouding and frankly it infuriated me to the point which I wanted to return the set and move on. I paused the show and adjust the backlight, smart LED, dynamic contrast and the clouding was still noticeable. Not only does my TV have clouding that’s visible during shows, it has two blue bleed corner (I loosened fours screw with no effect) and I also have some light visible banding. Now my wife probably doesn't notice all these anomaly's but I do. After five defective TVs I'm just burned out .

If that it was you & your wife have gone through since November 2015, I would return it & get your money back.
It is a shame as the TV is fantastic & I have no issues with my 65" but if I went through what you have been through, it would be gone. I wouldn't have waited as long as you have either so I admire your patience.
I'm truly sorry that your experience with the JS8500 has been a bad one.
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post #15443 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rectaltronics View Post
99.999% availability. IOW, no room for failure, ever, pretty much.


The cable gets fastened to something on the monitor that doesn't move. If that's not practical, we include a loop of cable there so that the loop gets most of the stress and not the connector. Then sufficient slack, looping the cable at joints if necessary to reduce the amount of cable bending.
Gotcha. And my previous tv was mounted for me and they did that with the cable. I hadn't thought of that when I took that tv down and put this one up myself on the same mount. Good idea. But it also isn't possible as the cable isn't long enough to start with. But I get the idea and I am probably going to order the 10' cable I have previously linked to and if so I will do as you suggested and fasten it to the mount.

BTW Samsung is sending me a new standard 6.5 foot One Connect Cable (http://www.samsungparts.com/Products...39-02015A.aspx). Not really sure what I'm going to do with it except keep for an emergency. Or if mine actually does finish breaking before the longer one arrives.
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post #15444 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajresendez View Post


So the first and second picture are with backlight 10 and smart led off with everything else that effects black levels off.

The last one is with the settings as they are on the first page for standard mode.

Pics make it look way worse in normal viewing I can definitely live with it as it only comes up noticeably in credits mostly where you can tell the smart led is doing its thing...

Get Samsung to replace panel or keep what I have? I don't have any other issues with the panel other than this clouding.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Yeah, the clouding pretty much looks all the same in all three pictures, despite the settings you have tried. What you should do is stand right in front of the tv a few feet away, and try to take the pictures from a near center position. Use the settings posted with the clouding video (brightness, contrast, smart led, etc) and then retake your pictures. Remember, camera exposure will also exacerbate the clouding.

The ultimate test is do you see it during regular content? Again, pics can make it look worse and you said that you only see it during credits, so it might just be a camera issue.
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post #15445 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 02:59 PM
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Does anyone else have the K8500? What do you think of BD Wise mode? Apparently it's "recommended" but I think prme19's settings look better... watching The Dark Knight with BD Wise on.

One thing I notice is when I have BD Wise on it tells me the resolution is 1920x1080. When I turn it off the TV says it's displaying in UHD. What exactly is the point of this?

Last edited by trevrox; 02-17-2016 at 03:02 PM.
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post #15446 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mc_avs View Post
If that it was you & your wife have gone through since November 2015, I would return it & get your money back.
It is a shame as the TV is fantastic & I have no issues with my 65" but if I went through what you have been through, it would be gone. I wouldn't have waited as long as you have either so I admire your patience.
I'm truly sorry that your experience with the JS8500 has been a bad one.


I have three weeks left on my return. Ill give Samsung a change to fix it.
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Current gear: UN65JS8500 (Main TV), M40-C2(Guestroom TV), I1D3(Using HCFR)
Retired: TH-50PX80U, M55-C2 (Returned)
Duds: 2x XBR-65X930D(bent frame, 3D unwatchable and clouding), P65-C1(3x Yellow banding, dead pixels), UN65JS8500(blue bleed) UN60J6200 (Returned, dead pixels), M65-C1(3x Defective units, all dead pixel and yellow banding)
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post #15447 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 03:00 PM
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this update is mandatory so it's already downloaded to your set and you just have to approve it's installation.
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Originally Posted by 4K Tech View Post
That is why I too have Auto Updates turned off ("I want to see what this update includes first, or if it causes any problems"). The TV still notifies me whether an update is available as well as the update version number (when I view the Software Update menu, not via a popup message), but I'm the one who gets to choose whether to update or not, not the TV.
denpom I think you are right. When I went to the software menu i already showed 1443 as the current version. Now I don't know if this means its installed or its downloaded, but I didn't click on check for updates, etc.

4ktech, I had my auto update setting on OFF, and it still downloaded the updated lol. But I got a popup message at the top of the screen yesterday while I was watching tv.

If its installed, oh well. Only one way to find out
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post #15448 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by the5rivers View Post
Yeah, the clouding pretty much looks all the same in all three pictures, despite the settings you have tried. What you should do is stand right in front of the tv a few feet away, and try to take the pictures from a near center position. Use the settings posted with the clouding video (brightness, contrast, smart led, etc) and then retake your pictures. Remember, camera exposure will also exacerbate the clouding.

The ultimate test is do you see it during regular content? Again, pics can make it look worse and you said that you only see it during credits, so it might just be a camera issue.
Yes, the pictures can absolutely amplify the problem. The other issue I think I'm having is, that this TV loses contrast very quickly off center, and it's particularly noticeable in the black levels. I'm not certain if that's normal, but as it is I only sit about 6.5 feet away from the TV. Now with it on the stand dealing with service rather then back up on the wall, I sit another foot or so closer and I believe I'm noticing that, in sitting that close to a 65 inch, that the contrast loss in the black areas of the screen particularly in the corners turns blue very very very quickly off center, and I can move back and forth so I'm sitting almost directly in front of the corner and the black levels are much better. But if I sit in the middle or slightly off center, the blue becomes much much more noticeable. Once I put it on the wall, I'm hoping it's better.
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post #15449 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevrox View Post
Does anyone else have the K8500? What do you think of BD Wise mode? Apparently it's "recommended" but I think prme19's settings look better... watching The Dark Knight with BD Wise on.

One thing I notice is when I have BD Wise on it tells me the resolution is 1920x1080. When I turn it off the TV says it's displaying in UHD. What exactly is the point of this?
There's a K8500 thread, you might get more responses and help there. Also, the master HDR thread has had a lot of posts lately regarding this UHD player as well.
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post #15450 of 23987 Old 02-17-2016, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by goksucats View Post
Yes, the pictures can absolutely amplify the problem. The other issue I think I'm having is, that this TV loses contrast very quickly off center, and it's particularly noticeable in the black levels. I'm not certain if that's normal, but as it is I only sit about 6.5 feet away from the TV. Now with it on the stand dealing with service rather then back up on the wall, I sit another foot or so closer and I believe I'm noticing that, in sitting that close to a 65 inch, that the contrast loss in the black areas of the screen particularly in the corners turns blue very very very quickly off center, and I can move back and forth so I'm sitting almost directly in front of the corner and the black levels are much better. But if I sit in the middle or slightly off center, the blue becomes much much more noticeable. Once I put it on the wall, I'm hoping it's better.
The js8500 uses a VA panel, and these panels are notorious for having poor off-center viewing angles. What you are seeing is normal i.e. a limitation of the panel. Colors desaturate and blacks start to look like grays. I notice this when I get up and walk away to the kitchen, etc.
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