2015 Samsung SEK-3500U/ZA Evolution Kit - Page 750 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22471 of 23814 Old 10-04-2017, 10:02 PM
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SM White Balance re-alignment settings - HDMI 4

Due to the 2 Point settings getting at, and beyond my personal +/- 3 parameters limitation, a SM WB re-alignment was needed, plus a re-calibration:
(HDMI 1 w/ HDR next on my list)
Attached Files
File Type: txt SamsungHU9000_HDMI_4_JS_Oct_4_2017.txt (1.7 KB, 63 views)
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post #22472 of 23814 Old 10-04-2017, 10:36 PM
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hi all,

thanks all for the great info, many pro's on here

i have been reading pages and pages off this forums regarding the hu8550 and sek-3500u..

after alot of back and forth, i am wanting to purchase one; for the upgraded hdmi and HDR10 (for xb1 s).

i can play 4k atm, usually off a usb, but no hdr.

my tv is, AU55HU8550 and im looking to purchase the SEK-3500U. - Novatek from what i checked yesterday, FW 1280 from memory.

from research i think i need the SEK-3500U/XS as im in Australia?

i found a one on the AU Ebay site, description says: Model: SEK-3500U/XS - wasnt able to post the link, but its easy to find.

im assuming this will work ? any info would be great

also, any need to go into service menu to calibrate, or through the normal menu's are fine?

thanks for any info.

cheers,

Walid.
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post #22473 of 23814 Old 10-05-2017, 06:51 AM
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Any Service Menu entry should ONLY be done by those who know what they're doing!
For most users, the normal menus available are more than enough to calibrate the set.
If wanting the Cal Night and Day modes, then SM entry is required.
Upon entering the SM, write down, or better still, take photos of any screens you're going to do changes on, BEFORE doing them - just in case!
In all cases in the SM, use Menu Key to back out of any areas you've entered! When finished, shut down.

UN65KS9800 - Mine
UN65HU9000 + SEK-3500U / UN75JU7100 / UN55HU7250 with SEK-3500U in UJS9000 Mod Mode / UN40J5200AF / HiSense 40H5507 - Wife's
UN55NU8000 X 2 - my 2 kids families (or should I say adults?)

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post #22474 of 23814 Old 10-05-2017, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingizzmo View Post
Ok I have not taken the plunge into the sek3500 for my f9000 time and life gets in the way should I do it ? and is this the last one ? and will I find one if I wait any longer ?
I have the UN55F9000 with the 3500U and I too think it was worth it...at the time it was released. Personally, I would save the money and buy a cheaper 4k tv with HDR because when you input a 4k 60Hz signal into the F9000, AMP is enabled and you can't turn it off. It's so frustrating that I just set the device output to 4k 25Hz on the Apple TV 4k or the Roku. I hate that it does this and am thinking that spending 800 or so on another TV that doesn't do this is worth it. Besides, technology is changing so rapidly that I can't see spending more than 1k on a tv that you'd want to replace in 3 years or so. Just my opinion.
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post #22475 of 23814 Old 10-05-2017, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walid86 View Post
hi all,

thanks all for the great info, many pro's on here

i have been reading pages and pages off this forums regarding the hu8550 and sek-3500u..

after alot of back and forth, i am wanting to purchase one; for the upgraded hdmi and HDR10 (for xb1 s).

i can play 4k atm, usually off a usb, but no hdr.

my tv is, AU55HU8550 and im looking to purchase the SEK-3500U. - Novatek from what i checked yesterday, FW 1280 from memory.

from research i think i need the SEK-3500U/XS as im in Australia?

i found a one on the AU Ebay site, description says: Model: SEK-3500U/XS - wasnt able to post the link, but its easy to find.

im assuming this will work ? any info would be great

also, any need to go into service menu to calibrate, or through the normal menu's are fine?

thanks for any info.

cheers,

Walid.
Yes, according to Samsung's Australia website, the SEK-3500U/XS is the one for you:

http://www.samsung.com/au/tv-accessories/sek-3500u/

Like @p5browne says, the normal menus should be fine. I have never ventured into the Service Menu where one false move can brick your SEK-3500. I have the bulk of my gear connected through the SEK-3500's HDMI ports which allows me to have unique settings for each device. I have attached my TV settings to get you started.

To install the kit here is a post containing the tried and true method...

Tutorial on installing the SEK-3500U Evo Kit Upgrade

Good news is that whether you have the Novatech chip or the preferred Golf chip, the SEK-3500 upgrades all of us to the chip used in the JS series -- the H chipset.

Welcome to the club!
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File Type: pdf My TV Settings.pdf (318.0 KB, 68 views)
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post #22476 of 23814 Old 10-05-2017, 10:16 PM
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awesome info! thanks alot all.

i will look to order some time next week and go from there.

Thanks for the tutorial link; i will have a good read through and follow.

i'm thinking around 2 weeks is when i'll have it.

your HDMI 2 settings are very close to what settings i use now, so atleast i know im on the right track!

cant wait!

thanks again.
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post #22477 of 23814 Old 10-06-2017, 10:21 AM
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Note to all:

Check that your BDWise is turned Off under the General heading, else wise your calibrations will not be correct, either from DIY calibration, or copying someone else's settings. (Also applies to the eye ball calibrators.)
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post #22478 of 23814 Old 10-08-2017, 08:02 AM
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FW # 1510.3 HDMI 1 w/HDR 2 Point

FW # 1510.3 on HDMI with HDR calibrated for Movie Mode.
Attached Files
File Type: txt SamsungHU9000_HDMI_1_JS_HDR_Oct_8_2017.txt (1.7 KB, 104 views)

UN65KS9800 - Mine
UN65HU9000 + SEK-3500U / UN75JU7100 / UN55HU7250 with SEK-3500U in UJS9000 Mod Mode / UN40J5200AF / HiSense 40H5507 - Wife's
UN55NU8000 X 2 - my 2 kids families (or should I say adults?)
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post #22479 of 23814 Old 10-08-2017, 08:03 PM
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Are any Members actually finding my settings work on their panel?

UN65KS9800 - Mine
UN65HU9000 + SEK-3500U / UN75JU7100 / UN55HU7250 with SEK-3500U in UJS9000 Mod Mode / UN40J5200AF / HiSense 40H5507 - Wife's
UN55NU8000 X 2 - my 2 kids families (or should I say adults?)
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post #22480 of 23814 Old 10-08-2017, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walid86 View Post
awesome info! thanks alot all.

i will look to order some time next week and go from there.

Thanks for the tutorial link; i will have a good read through and follow.

i'm thinking around 2 weeks is when i'll have it.

your HDMI 2 settings are very close to what settings i use now, so atleast i know im on the right track!

cant wait!

thanks again.
Walid - when I bought mine I ordered it via part number @ Harvey Norman. Took a few weeks to come in. Not even Samsung Aus reps generally know what it is!

I also have a question about setting the SEK up for the new Apple TV 4k

So far I understand:

- TV must be in movie mode under picture settings for HDR to work
- Must have high speed HDMI Cable (check)
- UHD must be turned on for the port I'm using (check on HDMI 3) Are all HDMI ports supported for HDR?

I am having some strange issues however.

1. HDR titles on Netflix don't "pop" like my PS4 does in HDR mode.
2. If I move my chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 I get strange artefacts on the screen. Like lines in the background of App graphics etc. I'm not sure why 4:4:4 isn't offered? My current settings are 4:2:0 4k hdr 60.

Any ideas on optimal settings for this setup? Help!

P.S Also found out last week that you need game mode on for your PS4 Pro to take advantage of HDR. I previously had it set just to PC and BF1 looked terrible. Wondered why it was all so bleak, then popped into game mode and BOOM! Brilliant PQ with explosions so bright I need to look away!

Edit: Forgot to mention my setup is Aus HU9000 65", Apple TV 4k, PS4 Pro, and Samsung HTS 6500.
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post #22481 of 23814 Old 10-09-2017, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lammiwinks View Post
Walid - when I bought mine I ordered it via part number @ Harvey Norman. Took a few weeks to come in. Not even Samsung Aus reps generally know what it is!

I also have a question about setting the SEK up for the new Apple TV 4k

So far I understand:

- TV must be in movie mode under picture settings for HDR to work
- Must have high speed HDMI Cable (check)
- UHD must be turned on for the port I'm using (check on HDMI 3) Are all HDMI ports supported for HDR?

I am having some strange issues however.

1. HDR titles on Netflix don't "pop" like my PS4 does in HDR mode.
2. If I move my chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 I get strange artefacts on the screen. Like lines in the background of App graphics etc. I'm not sure why 4:4:4 isn't offered? My current settings are 4:2:0 4k hdr 60.

Any ideas on optimal settings for this setup? Help!

P.S Also found out last week that you need game mode on for your PS4 Pro to take advantage of HDR. I previously had it set just to PC and BF1 looked terrible. Wondered why it was all so bleak, then popped into game mode and BOOM! Brilliant PQ with explosions so bright I need to look away!

Edit: Forgot to mention my setup is Aus HU9000 65", Apple TV 4k, PS4 Pro, and Samsung HTS 6500.
My Apple TV 4K (ATV4K) is on back order so I haven’t had a chance to set it up and experiment with the settings yet but I have read every single post on the Apple TV Owners thread related to the new 4K model to prepare myself.

To touch upon your post:

  • The SEK-3500 provided HDCP 2.2 / HDMI 2.0 to all HDMI ports as delivered and a firmware update in the later part of 2015 upgraded them all to HDMI 2.0a — the ‘a’ version is what is required for HDR so make sure your firmware is up to date..... and that your ATV4K is plugged directly into the SEK-3500 unless your Receiver is 4K HDCP 2.2 / HDMI 2.0a compliant.

  • As a matter of fact all the Picture modes (Movie; Standard; Natural; Dynamic) support HDR. To confirm this, while playing some HDR content from the Netflix app or the Amazon app via the Smart Hub for example, toggle between the various Picture modes and you will see they all pump up the Backlight and Contrast to their maximum values. Without turning this into another "Which Picture mode is the best" discussion, Movie mode is the most accurate and what most of us recommend for HDR and SDR content.

  • Generally speaking Menu >> Picture >> Picture Options >> HDMI UHD Color should be turned ON for the ports you have your 4K devices plugged into which states in the SEK-3500 settings menu:
    Quote:
    This mode is optimized for UHD 50P/60P 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 signals
    Note: This option doesn't have to be turned ON for some devices to output HDR to the TV. For example, my UBD-K8500 Ultra HD Blu-ray player outputs 4:2:0 24p when playing UHD Blu-rays which will be displayed in HDR even with this option turned OFF however my Chromecast Ultra that outputs all content at 60p must have it turned ON in order to display any content in HDR
  • The biggest misconception with 4K TV is that any old ‘high speed’ HDMI Cable will work. That is not the case especially when trying to pass 4K @ 60 at 4:4:4 chroma which is the most demanding!

I suspect your artifact issues are related to your cable and likely explains why anything higher than 4:2:0 is causing problems and the reason that 4:4:4 is not available is because, as I understand it, the ATV4K does a compatibility test to see if your setup is up to the task of delivering 18 Gbps.

I would suggest you obtain an HDMI PREMIUM Certified Cable that contains the following label...



You don’t have to spend a lot of money. Most people are buying MonoPrice HDMI Premium Certified Cables but just make sure it includes the label because not all of their cables do... especially when getting into very long lengths or their regular run of the mill 'high speed' non-certified HDMI cables. They also distribute their cables in Canada through PrimeCables.
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Last edited by Musician; 10-09-2017 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Added Note
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post #22482 of 23814 Old 10-09-2017, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
  • The biggest misconception with 4K TV is that any old ‘high speed’ HDMI Cable will work. That is not the case especially when trying to pass 4K @ 60 at 4:4:4 chroma which is the most demanding!

I suspect your artifact issues are related to your cable and likely explains why anything higher than 4:2:0 is causing problems and the reason that 4:4:4 is not available is because, as I understand it, the ATV4K does a compatibility test to see if your setup is up to the task of delivering 18 Gbps.

I would suggest you obtain an HDMI PREMIUM Certified Cable that contains the following label...



You don’t have to spend a lot of money. Most people are buying MonoPrice HDMI Premium Certified Cables but just make sure it includes the label because not all of their cables do... especially when getting into very long lengths or their regular run of the mill 'high speed' non-certified HDMI cables. They also distribute their cables in Canada through PrimeCables.
I just ran into this issue and will be replacing my cable tomorrow when I do the 3500 install. I will test into the A4kTV first and check the cable then through the receiver that should handle HDMI 2.0a. Really hoping the install goes smoothly.
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post #22483 of 23814 Old 10-09-2017, 03:54 PM
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Thanks so much for the detailed response! The detail helps immensely!

So from my testing my cable should be fine (will try swapping it with my ps4 pro cable as a test). I bought a Belkin ?ultra speed HDMI cable?.

I?m wondering if the Apple TV is perhaps trying to output 8 or 12 bit on 4:2:2 hence the banding - will report back after cable swap however!
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post #22484 of 23814 Old 10-09-2017, 03:56 PM
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P.S plugging directly into the SEK.
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post #22485 of 23814 Old 10-09-2017, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Are any Members actually finding my settings work on their panel?
HDMI 2 settings.

i used the settings; but changes backlight to 13.

i already had custom settings in white balance - 2\10 point, so i left them as they were.


anyone been able to enable game mode? i have BDwise OFF, but game mode is still greyed out;
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post #22486 of 23814 Old 10-09-2017, 05:34 PM
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@Lammiwinks , you are welcome.

There are several threads discussing the Apple TV 4K on AVS Forum. Here is one relevant post that seems to parallel your experience with 4:4:4...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundizer17 View Post
Got my Apple TV 4K today.

Really frustrated that we have to manually switch from HDR to SDR and vice versa depending on content.

Don’t kniw why i can’t select 4:4:4 chroma on HDR 4K, but can do on SDR. Anyone know why, is it the HDMI CABLE?

Source: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...l#post54861476
... and just to keep us on our toes, here is the answer over on this thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwindrem View Post
HDMI 2.0 (all flavors) limits 4:4:4 to 8-bit depth at 4k @ 60

For 10 or 12-bit depths, you are forced to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 for 4k @60.

You can get 4:4:4 at 10, 12 bit depths for 4k @ 24 or 30 Hz frame rates or HD image sizes regardless of frame rate.

Source: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...l#post54925392
And I can't make you read all the posts on the Apple TV Owners thread but if you jump to today, you will see that at the crack of dawn a fellow was asking "Does anyone know which bit depth the Apple TV4K outputs 4:4:4 at?" to which somebody replied "I’ve only seen 4:4:4 when outputting SDR. SDR 4k 60 should be 8-bit color.". If you start reading beginning at this post through to the end of the day there are multiple posts discussing the subject...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...l#post54923852

The consensus on that thread is to use the YCbCr setting on the ATV4K and not the RGB settings. If you want to know why, read this post of mine.

As for your 4:2:2 issues, other than your HDMI cable, I am not sure why you are experiencing artifacts and banding issues since:

1) the option is available in the ATV4K settings;

2) the post I quoted above says 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 should work right up to 4K @ 60Hz;

3) many guys over on the Apple TV Owners thread have theirs configured for 4K 4:2:2 @60 Hz.

Until I have my Apple TV 4K unit in my hot little hands, there isn't really much more I can offer so if you continue to have difficulties I would suggest you post your question(s) over on the Apple TV Owners thread but please post back here once everything is up and running to your satisfaction.

Cheers Mate
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post #22487 of 23814 Old 10-09-2017, 10:43 PM
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Thanks Musician - much appreciated

Will see what I can figure out!
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post #22488 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lammiwinks View Post
Anyone else getting banding on HDR 4:2:2? I have a HU9000 and a SEK3500 and when selecting 4:2:2 @ 60hz I get banding in the icons. Wondering if the Apple TV is not outputting @ 10 bits on 4:2:2? All seems fine when on 4:2:0. Using a Belkin High Speed HDMI cable from the Apple Store.

Also finding some strange film grain effects happening - I'm experimenting with my settings to see what's causing it (could just be the extra fidelity!).
I have a UN65JS9500 and Roku Ultra.

HDR also has banding on 4:2:2 and clears up with 4:2:0 I've seen this on Amazon 4K Video. To date, Roku has only used 60 fps in OS 7 and below, AFAIK.

There are TVs that can handle 4:2:2 HDR 60 fps but Samsung doesn't seem to be one of them. Not in 2015, it seems.

Not sure but I think the theory has been 4:2:2 is 12 bit and 4:2:0 is 10 bit but it may be how it's traditionally been transmitted rather than panel bit-- see the quote with linked article and paragraph I included below).

Maybe someone has more insight on that? But I found this post interesting in the Roku Premiere+ and Roku Ultra owner's thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52698257

Particularly, this paragraph in the linked article:
"Historically the source upsamples to 4:2:2, which is sent over HDMI, and then the display upsamples to 4:4:4 and converts to RGB. The reason for this sequence is that HDMI v1.4 and previous iterations did not support 4:2:0. HDMI2.0 does support 4:2:0 though only at 50/60 frames per second (FPS). At 24 FPS 10 bit only 4:4:4 and RGB are supported."

Suggests HDR 24 fps should be up sampled to 4:4:4(??) by source to TV input and HDR 60 fps should be up sampled to 4:2:0 (bandwidth and recent HDMI standards have played a role here, it seems). Perhaps that's a theory you can test with your Apple TV 4K?

Apparently, native 24, 25 and 30 fps added to Roku OS 8 for HDR devices works well.
[URL]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=54928744[URL]

Interesting to know that Apple and Roku are very similar on chroma results (4:2:2 60 fps source setting for HDR causes banding for us). Does 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 24 fps source setting for HDR cause banding too? The article seems to suggest the source would have to use chroma up sampling to 4:4:4 for 24 fps HDR? If so, I'd think Roku and Apple know this.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

Last edited by brotony; 10-10-2017 at 04:38 AM. Reason: clarify and link post I referred to
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post #22489 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by brotony View Post
I have a UN65JS9500 and Roku Ultra.

HDR also has banding on 4:2:2 and clears up with 4:2:0 I've seen this on Amazon 4K Video. To date, Roku has only used 60 fps in OS 7 and below, AFAIK.

There are TVs that can handle 4:2:2 HDR 60 fps but Samsung doesn't seem to be one of them. Not in 2015, it seems.

Not sure but I think the theory has been 4:2:2 is 12 bit and 4:2:0 is 10 bit but it may be how it's traditionally been transmitted rather than panel bit-- see the quote with linked article and paragraph I included below).

Maybe someone has more insight on that? But I found this post interesting in the Roku Premiere+ and Roku Ultra owner's thread:
[URL]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52698257[URL]

Particularly, this paragraph in the linked article:
"Historically the source upsamples to 4:2:2, which is sent over HDMI, and then the display upsamples to 4:4:4 and converts to RGB. The reason for this sequence is that HDMI v1.4 and previous iterations did not support 4:2:0. HDMI2.0 does support 4:2:0 though only at 50/60 frames per second (FPS). At 24 FPS 10 bit only 4:4:4 and RGB are supported."

Suggests HDR 24 fps should be up sampled to 4:4:4(??) by source to TV input and HDR 60 fps should be up sampled to 4:2:0 (bandwidth and recent HDMI standards have played a role here, it seems). Perhaps that's a theory you can test with your Apple TV 4K?

I don't know this to true but I read a post earlier today that suggested Roku OS 8 is the first device (Premiere+ and Ultra) and OS to natively accept HDR 24 fps from Netflix to compatible TV. No source was provided by that poster; seemed to be his impression or verified? I've yet to get the Roku 8 OS update but looking forward to testing the native fps.

Interesting to know that Apple and Roku are very similar on chroma results (4:2:2 60 fps source setting for HDR causes banding for us). Does 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 24 fps source setting for HDR cause banding too? The article seems to suggest the source would have to use chroma up sampling to 4:4:4 for 24 fps HDR? If so, I'd think Roku and Apple know this.

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A tad confused on this one - will read through and break it down. I've actually noticed that even 4:2:0 has banding on it if you look up close - so I think we're getting banding regardless - just less noticeable on 4:2:0.

I've tried:

- Swapping to PS4 Pro HDMI cable
- Swapped to different Apple TV
- Reset all TV settings and re-setup from scratch.
- Turned UHD colour off and it still let me turn on HDR on the Apple TV. Seems very fishy...

Still no joy! Maybe our sets just aren't destined for HDR after all

Edit: What input mode do you use? Set to a STB? Game? PC?
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post #22490 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Lammiwinks View Post
A tad confused on this one - will read through and break it down. I've actually noticed that even 4:2:0 has banding on it if you look up close - so I think we're getting banding regardless - just less noticeable on 4:2:0.

I've tried:

- Swapping to PS4 Pro HDMI cable
- Swapped to different Apple TV
- Reset all TV settings and re-setup from scratch.
- Turned UHD colour off and it still let me turn on HDR on the Apple TV. Seems very fishy...

Still no joy! Maybe our sets just aren't destined for HDR after all

Edit: What input mode do you use? Set to a STB? Game? PC?
HDMI from Roku Ultra directly to my OCB (one connect box because the js9500 series hasn't had an SEK upgrade opportunity). UHD Color is active. Movie mode settings. Hope that answers your question because I'm not sure what you mean?

I have noticed on some devices that HDMI cable makes a difference where you'd think that SDR lower resolution would not be impacted. Maybe the source requires a higher premium cable to make up for its low performance. I use a Blue Jeans Series- FE HDMI cable which seems to help all sources.

Odd that the Roku 3 (non-4k) unit had banding on SDR content even with the Blue Jeans cable. I set that input to UHD enabled and it helped. I sent an email to Roku and they replied beck with, "thanks for letting us know".

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Last edited by brotony; 10-10-2017 at 04:28 AM. Reason: Roku 3 comment added
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@Lammiwinks and @brotony , I found that both my HU9000/SEK-3500 and JS9500 both have banding with 4K/60Hz HDR and 4:2:2 (the chroma sampling has nothing to do with the bit depth, but yes, 12bit also causes banding). I found this out, because I am able to use any combination of chroma sampling and bit depth with my Oppp 203 UHD disk player, and while playing the lone 4K/60 title (at least currently, anyway, Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk), it's as simple as setting the player to 10bit 4:2:0 to eliminate any banding (then the player defaults to 4:2:2 for 4K/24Hz material in order to keep the signal "legal", which doesn't display any banding from known good sources).

This is true that the source device typically upsamples the native 4:2:0 signal (at least for all commercially available 4K HDR content, streaming or disk) before delivering it to the display, so it's just a matter of how much is done in the device and how much is done in the display to get to the 4:4:4 that is required to finally get to RGB to light up the pixels. In our case, the SEK or OCB can accept the 4:2:0 when it is delivered at 60Hz (i.e. ATV4K and Roku OS7), and handle the chroma upsampling properly.

Also, the HDMI UHD Color setting essentially tells the source device whether 8bit or 10bit is supported (obviously, ON allows 10bit, and although HDR still works with OFF, you'll only be getting 8bit color).
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Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
@Lammiwinks and @brotony , I found that both my HU9000/SEK-3500 and JS9500 both have banding with 4K/60Hz HDR and 4:2:2 (the chroma sampling has nothing to do with the bit depth, but yes, 12bit also causes banding). I found this out, because I am able to use any combination of chroma sampling and bit depth with my Oppp 203 UHD disk player, and while playing the lone 4K/60 title (at least currently, anyway, Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk), it's as simple as setting the player to 10bit 4:2:0 to eliminate any banding (then the player defaults to 4:2:2 for 4K/24Hz material in order to keep the signal "legal", which doesn't display any banding from known good sources).

This is true that the source device typically upsamples the native 4:2:0 signal (at least for all commercially available 4K HDR content, streaming or disk) before delivering it to the display, so it's just a matter of how much is done in the device and how much is done in the display to get to the 4:4:4 that is required to finally get to RGB to light up the pixels. In our case, the SEK or OCB can accept the 4:2:0 when it is delivered at 60Hz (i.e. ATV4K and Roku OS7), and handle the chroma upsampling properly.

Also, the HDMI UHD Color setting essentially tells the source device whether 8bit or 10bit is supported (obviously, ON allows 10bit, and although HDR still works with OFF, you'll only be getting 8bit color).
Excellent feedback. Thank you!

I looked into the Roku secret menu:
Home x5
Down
Left
Up x3

Roku Ultra says it's supporting 10 bit 4:2:0 and 10 bit 4:2:2 for my display. What's been disappointing about Roku is that chroma up sampling 4:2:2 is default. Lots of complaints of HDCP unauthorized, screen color flashes like purple or green or blue and banding. Most experiencing this aren't aware of this hidden secret hidden menu because Roku seems to think they know best. Seems even the Roku 3 has missed default setting BUT this secret menu had no options for that model. Roku 3 seems to think it supports 4:2:2 for fps under 60. 8 or 10 bit? Can't recall now because it's no longer connected. That confused me but like I said earlier, switching on UHD Color for Roku 3 improved the banding it was displaying for SDR. The Roku secret menu did change to say that chroma up sampling 4:2:0 was supported at 60 fps. LOL; not a solution but improvement.

The theory of 4:2:2 being 12 bit has been theorized but as you suggest, doesn't matter. I get the banding on 10 bit 4:2:2 but mostly gone with 10 bit 4:2:0 if the Roku secret menu in Roku OS 7 is to be used as to what Roku source is pushing to my JS9500. Your source findings support that.

On Amazon Video, the series Man in High Castle season 2, episode 8 at 15m13seconds with chroma up sampling to 4:2:2 there's banding and random black screen dropouts. They're mostly gone with 10 bit 4:2:0. I even had a momentary HDCP unauthorized with purple screen when using 4:2:2 mode for HDR. I only see minor banding with motion like the door that closes just prior to that scene time and as the character moves with ceiling in background, there's minor banding in the ceiling. The black screen dropouts are gone too; I rarely see them at all. Just tried it again with Roku Ultra on Roku 7.7 update and the black screen dropouts were maddening with 10 bit 4:2:2 up sampling from Roku Ultra: unwatchable. Even my screensaver is flashing a partial white screen monetarily after exiting that episode and timing out to screensaver.

This supports the notion that chroma up sampling for 60 fps from source should use 4:2:0 up sampling. I'm glad to hear that 4:2:2 from source works well for 24 fps HDR for you. I think the Roku Ultra should support that on Roku 8 OS. Waiting for the slow update cycle to hit my Roku but not sure about application updates availability. Hopefully that's done already, if needed.

The Ultra or Roku OS 7 isn't perfect; it's been recommended to view 4k non-HDR with display setting as 4k only rather than default 4k HDR for non HDR content for Netflix application on Roku. The Roku should switch to HDR only when needed but Netflix, for some reason, is said go be forcing BT.2020 color space when Roku is set to default 4k HDR display. This causes random red flashes on 4k non HDR content when display is defaulted to 4k HDR.

I also have random audio blips that aren't resolved on many applications. These blips tend to occur when initial buffering of stream starts. Mostly random and seldom afterwards but not perfect. Video is mostly without quality issues. I could be wrong but I'm hoping native video offers better audio sync and improved audio quality on the Roku?? I don't understand how video rendering can be smooth and reliable while audio has random blips in the stream? Why can't audio be the same quality and have same reliability as video. Consistently unequal and annoying when listening with headphones. I have no desire to frequently upgrade AVR so I listen to quality headphones when watching TV alone.

Hopefully Roku OS 8 fixes all that to a measurable improvement.

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post #22493 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
@Lammiwinks and @brotony , I found that both my HU9000/SEK-3500 and JS9500 both have banding with 4K/60Hz HDR and 4:2:2 (the chroma sampling has nothing to do with the bit depth, but yes, 12bit also causes banding). I found this out, because I am able to use any combination of chroma sampling and bit depth with my Oppp 203 UHD disk player, and while playing the lone 4K/60 title (at least currently, anyway, Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk), it's as simple as setting the player to 10bit 4:2:0 to eliminate any banding (then the player defaults to 4:2:2 for 4K/24Hz material in order to keep the signal "legal", which doesn't display any banding from known good sources).

This is true that the source device typically upsamples the native 4:2:0 signal (at least for all commercially available 4K HDR content, streaming or disk) before delivering it to the display, so it's just a matter of how much is done in the device and how much is done in the display to get to the 4:4:4 that is required to finally get to RGB to light up the pixels. In our case, the SEK or OCB can accept the 4:2:0 when it is delivered at 60Hz (i.e. ATV4K and Roku OS7), and handle the chroma upsampling properly.

Also, the HDMI UHD Color setting essentially tells the source device whether 8bit or 10bit is supported (obviously, ON allows 10bit, and although HDR still works with OFF, you'll only be getting 8bit color).
Thank you @galonzo for putting some clarity around this!

So I have started to take a stab at putting together a first draft of the recommended Apple 4K TV Settings. If I understand correctly, the attached image would represent the typical Video settings we might want to choose when watching content. Please let me know if I have screwed up.

Once I have my Apple TV 4K and have had a chance to familiarize myself with the other various settings and received your EXPERT ADVISE I will add the fields to this spreadsheet and make it available as a template so guys can modify it to suit their particular needs.

Do you normally set the ATV4K and forget it or do you bounce back and forth depending on what you are watching?
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Thank you @galonzo for putting some clarity around this!

So I have started to take a stab at putting together a first draft of the recommended Apple 4K TV Settings. If I understand correctly, the attached image would represent the typical Video settings we might want to choose when watching content. Please let me know if I have screwed up.

Once I have my Apple TV 4K and have had a chance to familiarize myself with the other various settings and received your EXPERT ADVISE I will add the fields to this spreadsheet and make it available as a template so guys can modify it to suit their particular needs.

Do you normally set the ATV4K and forget it or do you bounce back and forth depending on what you are watching?
I'm hoping that Apple introduces native switching to replace their full-time HDR "fake" and "true" scheme for panels set to HDR compatibility.

I was very interested to purchase the Apple TV 4K to replace my Roku Ultra until that happened. Another case of manufacturer knowing best, gone wrong. I didn't want to purchase hoping that Apple would render SDR and HDR natively at some point.

I would be in the camp that would manually switch back to SDR for SDR content and HDR for HDR content. Switching would be a drag because it seems you need to know in advance that your content and viewing is HDR to set in advance because you won't see HDR tags with SDR display default, right? No way to set on the fly?

Not to criticize Apple for thinking outside the box; but I do think they got this one wrong. I keep watch on the ATV threads hoping to see this get switched in favor of native. I would likely buy if my Roku 8 OS update on Roku Ultra 2016 doesn't satisfy.

The concern I have with full-time HDR is the dreaded brown spot developing in so many panels on the JS9500. I don't think this is the only model suffering this breakdown. My theory has long been static images and HDR forced display settings as frequent use when viewing. Don't claim to be correct but I think our sets weren't built with frequent and long hours of HDR or static images. Displays need SDR settings for SDR content and a friggin screensaver that blacks the screen within a minute or two (calling you out Netflix!! And Tizen 1.0 smart apps!!). My personal opinion, of course. I feel these place the panel at risk for bruising.

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post #22495 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 01:24 PM
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<--snip-->I'm hoping that Apple introduces native switching to replace their full-time HDR "fake" and "true" scheme for panels set to HDR compatibility.
Although native switching hasn't arrived yet I believe a recent ATV4K firmware update (for those on the Beta Program) now offers the choice of SDR output rather than HDR from the sounds of these posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Yes, 4:4:4 is 8-bit, as shown in this screenshot from my Marantz. Video setting in the ATV is 4K SDR/60Hz 4:4:4. I have settled for this setting because many of the Netflix shows I am currently watching are either 1080p or 4K SDR. I am perfectly happy with the up-scaling in the ATV for the 1080p content.
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Originally Posted by daimler2015 View Post
I also chose 4K SDR 60Hz for the same reasons but chose 4.2.0. When U tried 4.4.4 it seemed that the TV needed to be tweaked a bit, so I just left it at 4.2.0.
Would you suggest 4.4.4 and tweaking the TV settings?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...6&d=1507088751
I know I saw a screen shot somewhere that allowed you to pick SDR but can't seem to find it at the moment.

I doubt anyone of us would choose HDR @ 60 4:4:4 8 bit over HDR @ 60 4:2:0 10 bit so I have updated the spreadsheet accordingly so the 4th column reflects SDR as shown in the attached draft. I am not sure if we would need to go in and turn HDMI UHD Color off on the Samsung TV or if the ATV4K would only send 8 bit but I will leave the 'Note' there until we know for sure.

Can't wait for mine to get here so I can play with it!
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post #22496 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 02:21 PM
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Further to the above post, it appears I am not going crazy but if my Apple TV 4K doesn't get here soon I might!!!

Here is a picture of the ATV4K screen offering up a variety of settings including 4K SDR 60. When somebody posted it I recall them saying these aren't the only settings... there is a scroll bar and many, many, choices!
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post #22497 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 03:08 PM
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Thank you @galonzo for putting some clarity around this!

So I have started to take a stab at putting together a first draft of the recommended Apple 4K TV Settings. If I understand correctly, the attached image would represent the typical Video settings we might want to choose when watching content. Please let me know if I have screwed up.

Once I have my Apple TV 4K and have had a chance to familiarize myself with the other various settings and received your EXPERT ADVISE I will add the fields to this spreadsheet and make it available as a template so guys can modify it to suit their particular needs.

Do you normally set the ATV4K and forget it or do you bounce back and forth depending on what you are watching?
Yes, knowing what I know about 4K/60Hz and our TVs, and knowing that the ATV4k would only output 4K/60Hz for HDR when I got it, it was a no-brainer to set it to 4:2:0 and forget it (it is mostly for the rest of the family to use, so until someone complains about banding or the like, then maybe I'll mess with it again).

@brotony , the same goes for the Roku; since it will only output 4K/60Hz on OS7, it was a no-brainer for me to set it to 4:2:0, and I typically only use it to watch streaming HDR, so I, too am on pins and needles for OS8 and native framerate I did notice some banding in a few scenes in the source material of The Grand Tour on Prime, but then there's obviously a whole lot more when set to 4:2:2 and only outputting 8bit (which I can confirm is what's happening, as it is plugged into the HDMI input on the Oppo and it shows as much in the display info for the incoming signal).
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post #22498 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 04:33 PM
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Thank you @galonzo for putting some clarity around this!

So I have started to take a stab at putting together a first draft of the recommended Apple 4K TV Settings. If I understand correctly, the attached image would represent the typical Video settings we might want to choose when watching content. Please let me know if I have screwed up.

Once I have my Apple TV 4K and have had a chance to familiarize myself with the other various settings and received your EXPERT ADVISE I will add the fields to this spreadsheet and make it available as a template so guys can modify it to suit their particular needs.

Do you normally set the ATV4K and forget it or do you bounce back and forth depending on what you are watching?
Thank you Galanzo! And Musician. Much more clear now! Shame they don't allow us more configuration on the ATV etc to pick our bit depth . 4:2:0 is going well on the ATV for me.

I have taken some photos to wet your whistle while you wait too Musician. These are the settings/formats the ATV allows on a HU9000 / SEK3500.

You can see the banding in the 9 now logo on 4:2:2 and it's much improved 4:2:0. Apologies - these are mobile phone pics I hastily took this morning!

If you need any more pics or want me to try any settings with my setup let me know!

Cheers

Lammi
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post #22499 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 04:40 PM
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I'm hoping that Apple introduces native switching to replace their full-time HDR "fake" and "true" scheme for panels set to HDR compatibility.
Interestingly enough Brotony - I'm very picky with my colour and setup and can pick up minor issues that annoy me but this isn't one of them!

I've found that SDR shows look just as good with the "always on" HDR setting the Apple TV forces and the lack of switching makes it a very smooth experience. I think TBH that the only real benefit of 4k SDR in SDR is 4:4:4 chroma @ 60hz - which isn't what the shows are natively filmed in anyway (4:2:0 is the standard and having 4:4:4 is just moving the upsampling from your TV to the device as per above) - so it's really a moot point? I'm no expert though!

I've even watched poor old SD shows in the HDR 4k native view the ATV uses and they look to my eye slightly better than on the built in TV apps. Could be the way the ATV scales these.

One thing I'm confused about is that native Netflix App on the 3500 - It supports HDR - yet the screen doesn't seem to "flick" into a HDR mode when viewing HDR content. Will have to test what the backlight is with the app launched tonight to see what's it doing - whether it's sneaking in an HDR switch, or whether it too is just keeping everything HDR!
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post #22500 of 23814 Old 10-10-2017, 05:23 PM
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Interestingly enough Brotony - I'm very picky with my colour and setup and can pick up minor issues that annoy me but this isn't one of them!

I've found that SDR shows look just as good with the "always on" HDR setting the Apple TV forces and the lack of switching makes it a very smooth experience. I think TBH that the only real benefit of 4k SDR in SDR is 4:4:4 chroma @ 60hz - which isn't what the shows are natively filmed in anyway (4:2:0 is the standard and having 4:4:4 is just moving the upsampling from your TV to the device as per above) - so it's really a moot point? I'm no expert though!

I've even watched poor old SD shows in the HDR 4k native view the ATV uses and they look to my eye slightly better than on the built in TV apps. Could be the way the ATV scales these.

One thing I'm confused about is that native Netflix App on the 3500 - It supports HDR - yet the screen doesn't seem to "flick" into a HDR mode when viewing HDR content. Will have to test what the backlight is with the app launched tonight to see what's it doing - whether it's sneaking in an HDR switch, or whether it too is just keeping everything HDR!
Yep. Picture settings should confirm HDR with max backlight and contrast.

I thought the Apple mention of HDR switching was too minor to be an issue. Some may need constant reminders but one would have sufficed for me.

Maybe the flicker is minimized in high end TVs? I thought that to be true. So what's the issue that Apple needs to address? HDR switch on Roku is not something I stress about. Don't think I notice it if it happens.

I got the Roku Ultra because Samsung was slow to get us HDR on Netflix. The mobile screensaver feature in Roku came in handy to set all black custom screensaver but some apps override mobile custom screensaver and push the bouncing Roku logo as screensaver.

Netflix app (on Roku and likely on all streamers) and Tizen 1.0 Smart Apps annoy me with lack of screensaver. Roku brings a little sanity to screensaver needs but not completely.

I've about given up hope Roku will fix the resolution bug on Tennis TV app so maybe another steamer is my not so distant future.

I really wanted to pre-order the Apple TV 4K but quickly got over it. I'd like to get to excited about it again but currently looking forward to Roku OS 8 update. Fixing everything may be a stretch but one can hope. Roku is teasing newer Roku Ultra model shipping with OS 8 but I'm not biting on that carrot. Give me my friggin update, Roku.

I appreciate your comments on Apple TV 4K results. Tells me what to expect on mine but I still hope for native switching and Amazon Video app before I leap.

Can you force a screensaver on Netflix or does your Apple TV display static pause with an overlay with bright white text and eventually goto series previews like Roku? I'd prefer a blacked out screensaver.

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