2015 Samsung SEK-3500U/ZA Evolution Kit - Page 751 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #22501 of 23773 Old 10-10-2017, 04:52 PM
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post #22502 of 23773 Old 10-10-2017, 04:56 PM
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So I swapped out the HDMI cable in the wall. It was a 30 foot cable that was not getting the job done according to Apple4k TV. Fishing through the walls and removing the old one took me about 2-hours and I was dreading it. Ran the updates and made a few adjustments and I am so happy right now. What a difference. I am sure I will play with some of the settings to get it the way I want it but it is a night and day difference running HDR. I was hoping I could get 4:4:4 so maybe I am doing something wrong?


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post #22503 of 23773 Old 10-10-2017, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post
So I swapped out the HDMI cable in the wall. It was a 30 foot cable that was not getting the job done according to Apple4k TV. Fishing through the walls and removing the old one took me about 2-hours and I was dreading it. Ran the updates and made a few adjustments and I am so happy right now. What a difference. I am sure I will play with some of the settings to get it the way I want it but it is a night and day difference running HDR. I was hoping I could get 4:4:4 so maybe I am doing something wrong?


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Can't do 4:4:4 on HDMI 2.0a @ 60hz due to bandwidth limitation on HDMI. If you drop it down lower you will be able to but the menu's will run poorly.

Best to pop to 4:2:0 and leave it there @ 60hz HDR!

As mentioned above 4:4:4 will use your ATV to upscale 4:2:0 content to 4:4:4 then pass it onto your TV. Setting at 4:2:0 will pass on 4:2:0 to your TV which will then upscale it to 4:4:4. So really it's relatively moot while there is no native 4:4:4 content . (4:2:0 is the UHD/4k standard).

Plus we see banding at 4:2:2!

Nice pics and setup sir!
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post #22504 of 23773 Old 10-10-2017, 05:11 PM
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From the ATV thread for those of us with 5.1 in relation to the sound settings

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaremyP View Post
No, highest quality will get you the DD+ 7.1 on a quite a few movies. It will also make for more a native DD decode/output as PCM.

If you choose, DD 5.1 fixed as output, the ATV gets the audio, mixes in system/Siri sounds, re-encodes on the fly to DD 5.1, and outputs.

So, movies that have native 5.1 soundtracks are being decoded, re-encoded, then output, and decoded again in your AVR. You don't want that (unless you have to use it for some reason).

Best outputs as PCM, so completely skips the extra lossy DD encode and, again, gets you 7.1 audio. You want best.

And as per Musicians old old post we should be setting HDMI Audio to Dolby Digital and Bitstream on the SEK to match. I'm assuming our audio will downcode it to 5.1?

Also the good news is the SEK is now properly passing 5.1 audio (didn't use to - must have been an update) and I can now receive 5.1 over HDMI from ATV and PS4 pro in my testing - previously it would only parse stereo over HDMI!
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post #22505 of 23773 Old 10-10-2017, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lammiwinks View Post
Can't do 4:4:4 on HDMI 2.0a @ 60hz due to bandwidth limitation on HDMI. If you drop it down lower you will be able to but the menu's will run poorly.

Best to pop to 4:2:0 and leave it there @ 60hz HDR!

As mentioned above 4:4:4 will use your ATV to upscale 4:2:0 content to 4:4:4 then pass it onto your TV. Setting at 4:2:0 will pass on 4:2:0 to your TV which will then upscale it to 4:4:4. So really it's relatively moot while there is no native 4:4:4 content . (4:2:0 is the UHD/4k standard).

Plus we see banding at 4:2:2!

Nice pics and setup sir!
Super helpful, thank you. I was running 4:2:2 30hz HDR and noticed the banding but when I went into Chroma there was not an option to go back to 4:2:0? I will try the video reset button and move to 4:2:0 at 60hz HDR. Man this picture is stunning.
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post #22506 of 23773 Old 10-10-2017, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post
Super helpful, thank you. I was running 4:2:2 30hz HDR and noticed the banding but when I went into Chroma there was not an option to go back to 4:2:0? I will try the video reset button and move to 4:2:0 at 60hz HDR. Man this picture is stunning.
You didn't ask me but I'm curious if you have UHD Color enabled for that HDMI input? Do you have 18 GB high speed HDMI cable installed?

I had a similar result when flipping that UHD Color toggle. My Roku reverts to 30 Hz 4:2:2 (supported) without UHD enabled. Shows 4:2:0 60 Hz supported when UHD Color is enabled with high speed cable.

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post #22507 of 23773 Old 10-10-2017, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brotony View Post
You didn't ask me but I'm curious if you have UHD Color enabled for that HDMI input? Do you have 18 GB high speed HDMI cable installed?

I had a similar result when flipping that UHD Color toggle. My Roku reverts to 30 Hz 4:2:2 (supported) without UHD enabled. Shows 4:2:0 60 Hz supported when UHD Color is enabled with high speed cable.

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I just upgraded to a HDMI high speed premium cable today and I will need to look to see if I have UHD color enabled. Not really sure where to look but I will poke around in the menu. I have seen both 30 Hz 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 60 Hz and my eyes prefer 4:2:0 60 Hz since there is no banding.

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post #22508 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post
I just upgraded to a HDMI high speed premium cable today and I will need to look to see if I have UHD color enabled. Not really sure where to look but I will poke around in the menu. I have seen both 30 Hz 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 60 Hz and my eyes prefer 4:2:0 60 Hz since there is no banding.
4:2:0 60hz is what you need sir! However it may be only running at 8 bits if Ultra HD Colour isn't on.

From memory the option is on your TV under Picture > Picture Options > Something about HDMI UHD Colour. You pick the HDMI port, it'll reboot then viola!

Also if you press info on the TV after that it'll say HDMI UHD Colour in the top right .
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post #22509 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 02:23 AM
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So I take a break and come back to learn that TVs are getting hung by the chimney with care and guys are happy with their Apple TV 4K settings. Great news!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post
I just upgraded to a HDMI high speed premium cable today and I will need to look to see if I have UHD color enabled. Not really sure where to look but I will poke around in the menu. I have seen both 30 Hz 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 60 Hz and my eyes prefer 4:2:0 60 Hz since there is no banding.
Really enjoyed seeing your pictures of your install. Good job!

As @Lammiwinks , who has turned into quite the pro on the Apple 4K TV, and @galonzo who is a pro from way back mentioned, 4K 4:2:0 @ 60 would be the settings that serve us the best for a couple of reasons:

  • 4:2:0 to eliminate any potential for banding;
  • 60 Hz to ensure the ATV4K operates smoothly

Once I have my ATV4K in November I will be experimenting with 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 while watching iTunes and Netflix content @ 24 Hz since that is the native frame rate and seeing how it looks to my eyes. In the meantime, I found this Spears and Munsil article posted on the ATV4K thread to be of some interest for those of us wondering about Chroma...

Choosing a Color Space

Just a footnote, anytime you are getting into the 30 foot cable lengths with 4K settings that push the 18 Gbps limits of HDMI 2.0 results aren't always going to be what one would hope for. The issues have come up time and time again on threads where guys are using projectors.

And yes, great having 5.1 pass-through for devices plugged into the SEK-3500 eh! Prior to that -- except in one case that I am aware of -- every device would limit the output to Stereo. That is the best you are going to get from most TVs and the reason I bought the UBD-K8500 Ultra HD Blu-ray player that has dual HDMI outputs so I can run the Video to the SEK-3500 and the Audio to my Marantz Receiver that doesn't support HDMI 2.0a / HDCP 2.2 to obtain the HD Lossless formats.

Since you are new around these here parts, you might be interested in this post of mine that I have reposted several times. While some guys favor plugging all their devices into their Receiver, I prefer plugging most of them into my SEK-3500 for a number of reasons...

Advantages to Connecting Devices to the One Connect Box

The post includes a few picture including a copy of my wiring diagram.

Note: Although I mention turning on BD Wise in my UBD-K8500 Ultra HD Blu-ray Player settings that facilitates a little trick I discovered that allows it to send the native resolution and frame rate to our SEK-3500, let me clear -- never, ever, turn on BD Wise in the SEK-3500 settings because it really makes a mess out of the colors... or as we say in Canada, the colours!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lammiwinks View Post
4:2:0 60hz is what you need sir! However it may be only running at 8 bits if Ultra HD Colour isn't on.

From memory the option is on your TV under Picture > Picture Options > Something about HDMI UHD Colour. You pick the HDMI port, it'll reboot then viola!

Also if you press info on the TV after that it'll say HDMI UHD Colour in the top right .
Correct. It is something, something, Picture, something. Ha, ha.

It is Menu >> Picture >> Picture Options >> HDMI UHD Color which needs to be turned ON for all HDMI inputs we have 4K devices plugged into.

Seems this Samsung TV owner didn't realize that the HDMI UHD Color needed to be turned on but once he did he said it made a "HUGE difference" and he is happy with his purchase. I though I would link to his post here for those who might me interested...

Helpful hint with new 4k Apple TV if you own a Samsung TV

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post
So I swapped out the HDMI cable in the wall. It was a 30 foot cable that was not getting the job done according to Apple4k TV. Fishing through the walls and removing the old one took me about 2-hours and I was dreading it. Ran the updates and made a few adjustments and I am so happy right now. What a difference. I am sure I will play with some of the settings to get it the way I want it but it is a night and day difference running HDR. I was hoping I could get 4:4:4 so maybe I am doing something wrong?
Just a thought, from the looks of your pictures it appears that you will be running your gear from one location and feeding all your devices to your SEK-3500 via the one HDMI cable going through your wall. Since the Apple TV doesn't require line of sight to operate, this might be one of those instances that you may want to consider attaching it to the wall behind your TV and plugging it directly into the SEK-3500 so you can use a short HDMI Premium Certified Cable. If you do decide to do this I would suggest you mount them a little ways away from each other since they both have fans as they generate heat.

Just thinking outside the box <-- no pun intended.

Have a great day everyone!
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post #22510 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 04:26 AM
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HAHA! Hilarious post Musician!

Oh my gosh.... I've always had BDWise turned on (by default). Just turned it off and it's much better. I learn something new each time you speak! Thankyou.

Silly question.... for game mode do I just set the input to game or do I also need to turn on game mode in the settings? Does it also matter what device I select each input as being?
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post #22511 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lammiwinks View Post
HAHA! Hilarious post Musician!

Oh my gosh.... I've always had BDWise turned on (by default). Just turned it off and it's much better. I learn something new each time you speak! Thankyou.

Silly question.... for game mode do I just set the input to game or do I also need to turn on game mode in the settings? Does it also matter what device I select each input as being?
Yeah, that BD Wise can really mess with your colours. Make sure you have it turned off for all inputs.

Menu >> System >> General >> BD Wise


As for Game mode I am not sure what you mean by "set input to game or do I also need to turn game mode in the settings". You need to turn it on in the settings as follows:

Menu >> System >> General >> Game

This will replace the Picture mode you had it set to (e.g. Movie) with the word "Game" grayed out.

As for inputs, you can use HDMI 1, 2 and 3 as you see fit but HDMI 4 is the one you would use if you are using ARC which I don't give lessons on because each A/V Receiver is different and I am lazy and don't like reading everyone's AVR manuals. You turn it on in the TV settings in the following menu...

Menu >> System >> Anynet+ HDMI(HDMI-CEC)

...but would have to also configure your Receiver to use ARC which they all call something different.

The technically challenged use an optical connection to hook up the SEK to their AVR to avoid the complexities and no biggie since it also offers Dolby Digital 5.1.

Have a good one!
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post #22512 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 05:30 AM
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Let's talk about HDMI cables for a second. I had a 30-foot cable with about 4 extra feet of cable and after speaking with Blue Jeans Cable they convinced me that a 25-foot at high speed is about the maximum they could recommend and they suggested their
JC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable: Best for Long Runs

I installed the (THICK) HDMI cable at 25-feet and it has performed perfectly. I tested the ATV4k on a short high speed cable first then moved to the long run before deciding there were no differences between the two in setting options or screen clarity. My Marantz can handle 2.0a/2.2 and I liked using my Marantz for switching and I considered the ATV4k behind the TV but my all in one remote would have needed a way to speak with it given I do not use my Apple remote.

I have some settings I need to update this morning after your helpful posts and am loving this thread and your helpful suggestions. You guys rock!
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post #22513 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post
Let's talk about HDMI cables for a second. I had a 30-foot cable with about 4 extra feet of cable and after speaking with Blue Jeans Cable they convinced me that a 25-foot at high speed is about the maximum they could recommend and they suggested their
JC Belden Series-1 Bonded-Pair HDMI Cable: Best for Long Runs

I installed the (THICK) HDMI cable at 25-feet and it has performed perfectly. I tested the ATV4k on a short high speed cable first then moved to the long run before deciding there were no differences between the two in setting options or screen clarity. My Marantz can handle 2.0a/2.2 and I liked using my Marantz for switching and I considered the ATV4k behind the TV but my all in one remote would have needed a way to speak with it given I do not use my Apple remote.

I have some settings I need to update this morning after your helpful posts and am loving this thread and your helpful suggestions. You guys rock!
Excellent choice on the HDMI Cable and thanks for mentioning Blue Jean Cables. In addition to Mono Price, that I mentioned they other day, they also get high praise in the AVS community for their HDMI Premium Certified Cables.

Touching on @brotony 's post, most of the add on devices these days output video at 3840 x 2160 @ 60p including the Chromecast Ultra so I think that is just a sign of the times so it is nice that Apple has provided us the flexibility to modify these to suit our various systems -- including the Chroma and frame rate. I doubt any of them offer more than 4:2:0 chroma and probably why we aren't seeing people complaining about banding except for some guys feeding it through an AVR which may be 'colorizing' the pass-through signal.

However, with regards to auto-switching between HDR and SDR I couldn't agree with him more. None of the other devices on the market that I am aware of send everything to the display as fake HDR unless it truly is real HDR!!!

With that being said, I am not sure that that is going to be a deal-breaker for me as I have a number of devices and will probably only be using my Apple TV 4K for UHD High Dynamic Range material for the most part which I can't get through one of my other devices (e.g. iTunes). So without further ado, let me introduce everyone to the Cheat Sheet.

Here is what mine looks like:



For those that have a bit of skill with Excel (or an employer that will pay for you to take a course) and want to edit a copy as it relates to your devices and apps you use, you can read my related post and download the template here...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...l#post54908082

I am currently working on an expanded version that will include customizable Excel templates for our SEK-3500 settings as well as the Apple TV 4K settings.

Cheers!
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post #22514 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 06:55 AM
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I do not have a Dolby Digital option under Sound?


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Dolby Digital

In order to select Dolby Digital you must be playing a source that contains a DD track. Once you have configured this option once, it should default to Dolby Digital the next time it detects a DD track.

Edit: @DenonLover, since you are running all your devices through your Receiver on the other hand, the audio is being fed through your AVR and the Video is being displayed on your TV. Just so you are aware, the Apple TV 4K outputs PCM so that is why the SEK-3500 is not showing the Dolby Digital option and only PCM but no harm no foul since it is plugged into your Receiver it should turn on all your lights indicating that it is receiving 5.1 or 7.1 sound so the ATV4K is sending the Best Sound Available but will probably display something like PCM or 'MULTI CH IN' like it does on my Marantz. In order to test the SEK-3500 either use a device that outputs DD 5.1 and plug it directly into the SEK-3500 or, better yet, use one of the internal apps (e.g. Netflix) and when it is outputting a DD 5.1 track go into your Menu >> Sound >> Additional Settings >> Audio Format and you should see the Dolby Digital option this time.




Software Update


After watching guys download and install around 5 firmware updates from the Korean site while I patiently waited it out (checking Menu >> Support >> Software Update option almost daily), I am pleased to say the scrolling banner just said I have an update. I just checked my TV in the Bedroom and it too has the update available. Woohoo!!!

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post #22516 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 07:17 AM
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If ATV is set to 4k 60 are we seeing true 24p on movies filmed that way? I thought there was judder unless you manually select 4k 24p?

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post #22517 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Category 5 View Post
If ATV is set to 4k 60 are we seeing true 24p on movies filmed that way? I thought there was judder unless you manually select 4k 24p?
Well no, you would be seeing 24p converted to 60p. There are a whole lot of articles all over the web as well as this thread on AVS Forum (and probably others)...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...-possible.html

This is one of those topics where some guys see judder while others don't and some TVs deal with it extremely well where they use something called 'reverse 3:2 pull down' while other TVs operate at 120 Hz which divides 24 into equal parts as opposed to a TV operating at 60 Hz.

If you are seeing judder watching 24p material at 60 Hz, that can be remedied to the satisfaction of some people using the Auto Motion Plus setting.

Menu >> Picture >> Picture Options >> Auto Motion Plus

Until I have my ATV4K in my hot little hands, I will not know which setting(s) I will ultimately use.

Cheers!
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post #22518 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 10:19 AM
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Roku OS 8 update has begun to rollout to all devices now. I had an opportunity to test this yesterday. Biggest feature for me is the native frame rate auto switching.

Playback is notably smoother but I think we're seeing some of the reasons 60 fps had long been a standard for streamers. Much like Apple disliked the switching to and from HDR, native frame rate causes similar switching but more pronounced than what we've seen on this SEK/OCB HDR switching. What I see from Roku Ultra 2016 with OS 8 frames rate switch is a flash much like a camera bulb flash, flashes bright near center of screen and turns gray. Not something you want to look at because the eye had some retention from the flash.

Hulu 24 fps streams can get out of audio sync when jumping into a episode in the middle. Some even pointed out that a zoom is induced by not starting at beginning with network splash. Hulu on Roku also has issues with "watch next" streaming its queue without showing you what it had queued when jumping in middle like that. I don't know about other platforms but Roku Hulu new UI experience has errors with "all caught up" and "watch next". It's not intuitive as older UI forcing users to fast forward through current season last episode watched to properly get the "all caught up" queuing correctly. Your lineup may not reflect same order but is default view requiring numerous button presses to get to "your stuff". To sum it up, basically it's dumb adding unnecessary need to watch from beginning to end and not reviewing content or exiting an episode to catch up later or there's many consequences to pay. You'll definitely see the zoom when credits play at end but don't linger too long because watch next will auto play without warning and you don't know what gets queued. Needless to say, the update didn't fix any hulu shortcomings but added another consequence if using native frame rate.

I was able to sync audio by skipping back one jump with directional arrow back in the episode. Some even suggested jumping to beginning and back to watched view to fix zoom error. These are induced by native frame rate on hulu.

Hulu needs to fix all that because I'm considering switching to hulu live TV. Tennis TV and Hulu new experience are so messed up, has me asking what is Apple TV doing with these apps to keep them from being so rogue?

Regarding native frame rate, it's being impacted by some broadcasters and its consequently effecting streams that are live or cloud DVR. 24 fps to 30 fps conversion may induce jerkiness that TVs may not deal with. Services that replace live TV or live TV recordings to cloud DVR may replace cloud DVR with a native 24 fps day after live airing. This post or poster explains it well, naming the content providers.

[URL]https://www.avsforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=54935326[URL]

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post #22519 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Well no, you would be seeing 24p converted to 60p. There are a whole lot of articles all over the web as well as this thread on AVS Forum (and probably others)...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...-possible.html

This is one of those topics where some guys see judder while others don't and some TVs deal with it extremely well where they use something called 'reverse 3:2 pull down' while other TVs operate at 120 Hz which divides 24 into equal parts as opposed to a TV operating at 60 Hz.

If you are seeing judder watching 24p material at 60 Hz, that can be remedied to the satisfaction of some people using the Auto Motion Plus setting.

Menu >> Picture >> Picture Options >> Auto Motion Plus

Until I have my ATV4K in my hot little hands, I will not know which setting(s) I will ultimately use.

Cheers!
Speaking of this, for our use case with the ATV4K, I decided to set it to output 4K HDR (24Hz), as we will only be using it to watch our iTunes library (i.e. only movies, which are all 24Hz). I noticed this automatically put me back at 4:2:2, which is fine, as 4:2:0 isn't "legal" at 24Hz.

@brotony , @Lammiwinks , and @DenonLover might also be interested to know that, in doing so, I also noticed a slight improvement in the gradient test pattern under Settings>>"Video and Audio">>Calibrate>>Color Bars.

This may not work for all, especially those who will view Youtube via the ATV app, as 24Hz YT content isn't typically the norm (you'll mostly see 30Hz content, with some 60Hz, and rarely 24Hz).

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post #22520 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
Speaking of this, for our use case with the ATV4K, I decided to set it to output 4K HDR (24Hz), as we will only be using it to watch our iTunes library (i.e. only movies, which are all 24Hz). I noticed this automatically put me back at 4:2:2, which is fine, as 4:2:0 isn't "legal" at 24Hz.

@brotony , @Lammiwinks , and @DenonLover might also be interested to know that, in doing so, I also noticed a slight improvement in the gradient test pattern under Settings>>"Video and Audio">>Calibrate>>Color Bars.

This may not work for all, especially those who will view Youtube via the ATV app, as 24Hz YT content isn't typically the norm (you'll mostly see 30Hz content, with some 60Hz, and rarely 24Hz).
Right again. I had chroma 4.2.0 set when I had that annoying switching with bright flash.

The way Roku had this setup, 4.2.2 is default and hidden behind a secret menu that was introduced when Samsung users complained of banding at 60 Hz frame rate. Granted, all outputs from Roku source were 60 fps then.

To complicate matters worse, Roku has issues with HDCP and long length HDMI cables, particularly those with compatible AVR between TV and Roku. Just before Roku OS 8 hit my Roku Ultra, I verified chroma 4.2.2 was causing black screen dropouts and momentary HDCP errors at 60 fps.

The chroma 4.2.0 was a fix for the 2 issues above at 60 fps until native frame rate rolled out. But as you say, 4.2.0 isn't "legal" for 24 fps. I think that explains bright switch flash I saw when natively switching to 24 fps.

Maybe that was a bandaid for Roku OS 7 and below? This needs revisiting in OS 8.

Now with 4.2.2 chroma on Roku source, the switching flash transition is smooth and flash free! Don't see the HDCP errors or black screen dropouts (yet). Maybe they're gone now; Roku realized they needed to fix this.

Only downside I see is minor banding on HDR but I'm wondering if there's another picture setting inducing it or poor filming? The Man in the High Castle season 2, episode 8 about the 15 minute mark has low light, washed out color and background artifact that's rendered nearly unstable at chroma 4.2.2 The door, the rounded wall corner and ceiling are nearly shaking with camera pan. Or when the character moves closer to camera with ceiling as background, the TV seems to be trying to add depth or texture to the ceiling (looks to artificial enhancing). Banding is truly evident there still but removed if using chroma 4.2.0 still.

All things considered, may be best not to OCD on the bad HDR scenes and leave it at default chroma 4.2.2 for native frame rate.

Thanks for the reminder in the mention. Any suggestions for the HDR scene above? Seems only an issue for bad HDR scenes? If not, not sure if it's hardware, software, device specific or settings?

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post #22521 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
Speaking of this, for our use case with the ATV4K, I decided to set it to output 4K HDR (24Hz), as we will only be using it to watch our iTunes library (i.e. only movies, which are all 24Hz). I noticed this automatically put me back at 4:2:2, which is fine, as 4:2:0 isn't "legal" at 24Hz.

@brotony , @Lammiwinks , and @DenonLover might also be interested to know that, in doing so, I also noticed a slight improvement in the gradient test pattern under Settings>>"Video and Audio">>Calibrate>>Color Bars.

This may not work for all, especially those who will view Youtube via the ATV app, as 24Hz YT content isn't typically the norm (you'll mostly see 30Hz content, with some 60Hz, and rarely 24Hz).
Hey @galonzo , thanks for weighing in on the 4K 4:2:2 @ 24Hz conversation. So this now validates the 1st column of our spreadsheet tool. And the third column 4K 4:2:0 @ 60 Hz was validated since these were your previous setting.

So while you are in the testing phase would you be so kind as seeing what the Chroma does in the following scenarios:

1) when set to 4K @30Hz to see if that agrees with the 2nd column

2) see if when the ATV4K is set to 4K 4:4:4 @60 Hz SDR that it sends 8 Bit as depicted in the 4th column as we suspect since 10 Bit wouldn't be "legal" either... without us having to go in and turn off HDMI UHD Color (in which case I can eliminate the Note in the spreadsheet)

I have to hand it to all of us that we have the Apple TV 4K and the SEK-3500 settings pretty much figured out in a couple of days! Gawd, those XBox One guys were going on about settings for months, lol.

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post #22522 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brotony View Post
Spoiler!
So i went ahead and checked out the scene you're referring to, and we'll just need to chalk it up to being one that simply cannot be rendered completely smooth due to the limits of current streaming bitrates for such a scene (low-light gradients, etc.); with a max streaming rate of say ~20Mbps (and this is generous for a streaming service that recommends ~15Mbps; some HDR YT vids can easily push the limits of your connection), it doesn't even come close to the video bitrate of some UHD disks (the 4K/60Hz disk title of BLLHW locks in around 100Mbps most of the time ).

Now this was on my Roku P+ (still OS7 ), again connected to my HU9000/SEK via my Oppo 203, so I also did a double-check on my still-current "streaming king" device (native 24Hz HDR for NF and Prime), the Sammy k8500 UHD disk player, which is connected directly to my JS9500, and saw the exact same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Spoiler!
I'll need to get my ATV4K to my other equipment to verify output, but I can verify that my Oppo auto-switches to 8bit output when set to forced 4K/60Hz at 4:4:4, without having to change HDMI UHD Color
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post #22523 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 08:45 PM
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Good points here guys - I too was having a nightmare on a scene in Peaky Blinders last night on the ATV via Netflix. Saw colour banding and it looked terrible. Also found a scene in the new Star Trek of atrocious quality and film grain.

Tested on my Macbook Pro, Native App on SEK and iPhone. Looks poor on all of them - so must be the filming or the compression.

I'm guessing with 4k HDR we'll be seeing all sorts of artifacts and crap in scenes that they never anticipated us seeing!
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post #22524 of 23773 Old 10-11-2017, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galonzo View Post
So i went ahead and checked out the scene you're referring to, and we'll just need to chalk it up to being one that simply cannot be rendered completely smooth due to the limits of current streaming bitrates for such a scene (low-light gradients, etc.); with a max streaming rate of say ~20Mbps (and this is generous for a streaming service that recommends ~15Mbps; some HDR YT vids can easily push the limits of your connection), it doesn't even come close to the video bitrate of some UHD disks (the 4K/60Hz disk title of BLLHW locks in around 100Mbps most of the time ).

Now this was on my Roku P+ (still OS7 ), again connected to my HU9000/SEK via my Oppo 203, so I also did a double-check on my still-current "streaming king" device (native 24Hz HDR for NF and Prime), the Sammy k8500 UHD disk player, which is connected directly to my JS9500, and saw the exact same thing.



I'll need to get my ATV4K to my other equipment to verify output, but I can verify that my Oppo auto-switches to 8bit output when set to forced 4K/60Hz at 4:4:4, without having to change HDMI UHD Color
That scene looks better with chroma 4.2.0 at 60 fps with display type set to 4K 60 Hz HDR.

I tried chroma 4.2.2 at 24 fps and 4K 30 Hz HDR display type. The banding was gone but no HDR push of backlight and contrast. Huh? I'm not the only finding that out today. No HDR on 24p on Amazon Video.

Is Roku responsible for requiring display type of 60 Hz for HDR rendering? 30 Hz HDR should render as well, right? I'm thinking the Roku is checking the display type and not enabling HDR when it sees 30 Hz. But granted, native for display is 60 Hz.

Netflix would give Roku Ultra HDR at 24 fps but only with display type as 60 Hz HDR. (Native frame rate enabled).

Amazon Video would not give Roku Ultra HDR with native frame rate. Period.

Disappointed because I thought I had found a solution to banding in 24p HDR (30 Hz display type). But that's not working out on Roku.

Would that be true for all streamers with current apps or could this be remedied?

Netflix just jotted and confirmed my comments, consulted with techs and said I should talk to Roku.

Same for Apple TV 4K with manual settings? 30 Hz HDR display type for 24p with chroma 4.2.2? Or would it just render simulated HDR?



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post #22525 of 23773 Old 10-12-2017, 12:00 AM
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Thanks guys - such useful information - I agree - you guys rock!

In terms of game mode there is a few things from my understanding.

1. You can press source and hit the wee drop down and select input type. If you pick PC for example it basically turns off all the bells and whistles (Auto Motion, Dynamic Contrast etc) and gives you just a raw image with low latency.

2. I thought this also applied if you selected the input as game too. I find I don't get HDR pop if I have the PS4 PRO set on PC, but do if I set it as game.

3. There is also a game mode in the settings, but I didn't think I needed that if I had set game as the input. I may need to however! Was wondering if anyone had a definitive answer!
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post #22526 of 23773 Old 10-12-2017, 02:18 AM
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European sites shows a page update on 2017.10.10 but the firmware is still 1510.4 - the same version as on my previous post from 25th. Sep.
I'm not sure why the date on the page has been updated.

http://www.samsung.com/dk/support/model/UE88JS9505QXXE
http://www.samsung.com/uk/support/model/SEK-3500U/XC
http://www.samsung.com/de/support/model/SEK-3500U/XC

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post #22527 of 23773 Old 10-12-2017, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brotony View Post
That scene looks better with chroma 4.2.0 at 60 fps with display type set to 4K 60 Hz HDR.

I tried chroma 4.2.2 at 24 fps and 4K 30 Hz HDR display type. The banding was gone but no HDR push of backlight and contrast. Huh? I'm not the only finding that out today. No HDR on 24p on Amazon Video.

Is Roku responsible for requiring display type of 60 Hz for HDR rendering? 30 Hz HDR should render as well, right? I'm thinking the Roku is checking the display type and not enabling HDR when it sees 30 Hz. But granted, native for display is 60 Hz.

Netflix would give Roku Ultra HDR at 24 fps but only with display type as 60 Hz HDR. (Native frame rate enabled).

Amazon Video would not give Roku Ultra HDR with native frame rate. Period.

Disappointed because I thought I had found a solution to banding in 24p HDR (30 Hz display type). But that's not working out on Roku.

Would that be true for all streamers with current apps or could this be remedied?

Netflix just jotted and confirmed my comments, consulted with techs and said I should talk to Roku.

Same for Apple TV 4K with manual settings? 30 Hz HDR display type for 24p with chroma 4.2.2? Or would it just render simulated HDR?
I tested the scene using the Roku on 4:2:0 (4K HDR at 60Hz), and the k8500 can only be set to 4:4:4, but still goes into HDR properly for 24Hz Prime HDR content, so I'm saying whether the TV does the chroma upsampling, or the device, the scene looks the same for me. It will be harder to test the ATV4k, as it's always in HDR mode like you said; would need to do a side-by-side comparison with a known proper HDR signal.

Sorry @Lammiwinks , I have no experience with Game or PC mode, strictly Movie mode here (where's our setting expert @King Richard when we need him? If you search for posts by him, he has links in his signature that goes over all Sammy TV settings) I've found that at minimum, Smart LED should be used at Medium for the best HDR experience (I use High for the SEK).
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post #22528 of 23773 Old 10-12-2017, 07:31 AM
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European sites shows a page update on 2017.10.10 but the firmware is still 1510.4 - the same version as on my previous post from 25th. Sep.
I'm not sure why the date on the page has been updated.

http://www.samsung.com/dk/support/model/UE88JS9505QXXE
http://www.samsung.com/uk/support/model/SEK-3500U/XC
http://www.samsung.com/de/support/model/SEK-3500U/XC
At least you get posted updates!

# 1 - Samsung NA hasn't updated the last 7 FW updates on their NA websites.
# 2 - Talking with Chat people is like talking to the wall. `There's no updates.' Hmm, funny our TVs are getting the FWs pushed to our sets, although some what later than they appear on the Korean site. But still much more up to date.
# 3 - Maybe Samsung should put their Blu-ray player employees on the job for the updates. Blu-ray player, and ALL the Samsung sites receive the updates at the same time.
# 4 - SEKs in Europe have their own update web sites. NA - Samsung sees the SEKs as only being `lowly' accessories, and therefore require no updating. Therefore we have to go to JS sites in Korea for the updates.
# 5 - US Customers get all kinds of offers with their purchase. In Canada, we're lucky to even get a remote!

# 6 - Our FW # 1510.3 update, online, also changed the date from August to September without a change in the FW #.

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post #22529 of 23773 Old 10-12-2017, 10:02 AM
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Exclamation BREAKING Apple TV 4K NEWS (at least for Sammy 2015 devices)

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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Spoiler!
Thanks to @Musician ^^^^, I went in to check on 4K HDR (30Hz), and once set, the ATV4K was only sending out 8bit I switched to 4K HDR (60Hz) and was back to 10bit, so I tried 4K HDR (24Hz) and was also showing only 8bit output

This tells me the Calibration>>Color Bars screen must not be a true HDR test pattern, since 4K HDR (24Hz) looked slightly better on my JS9500

Moral is, the ATV4K will only give you 10bit when set to 4K HDR (60Hz), so I'm back to my original setting at 4:2:0

Oh, and @Musician , it is also only this HDR setting (4K HDR (60Hz)) that allows changing the colorspace, and it's only between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2; all other HDR selections only have the 4:2:2 option available.
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post #22530 of 23773 Old 10-12-2017, 11:51 AM
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Thanks to @Musician ^^^^, I went in to check on 4K HDR (30Hz), and once set, the ATV4K was only sending out 8bit I switched to 4K HDR (60Hz) and was back to 10bit, so I tried 4K HDR (24Hz) and was also showing only 8bit output

This tells me the Calibration>>Color Bars screen must not be a true HDR test pattern, since 4K HDR (24Hz) looked slightly better on my JS9500

Moral is, the ATV4K will only give you 10bit when set to 4K HDR (60Hz), so I'm back to my original setting at 4:2:0

Oh, and @Musician , it is also only this HDR setting (4K HDR (60Hz)) that allows changing the colorspace, and it's only between 4:2:0 and 4:2:2; all other HDR selections only have the 4:2:2 option available.
Maybe you or someone already answered but any idea what Roku Premiere+ and Ultra on OS 8 are doing with 24p 30 Hz? 8 bit or 10 bit?

Maybe that's why no HDR on Netflix?

Update: it appears chroma 4.2.2 is still causing dropout issues. At first I thought it was native frame rate but switching to chroma 4.2.0 fixed it. I was having issues with UI blanking while navigating for apps and viewing content. Screensaver and dropouts were causing audible pop too. The Roku wasn't waking properly either: UI unresponsive, menu color washout or app highlighter missing on app breadboard navigation.

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Last edited by brotony; 10-12-2017 at 01:17 PM.
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