2015 Samsung SEK-3500U/ZA Evolution Kit - Page 769 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23041 of 23814 Old 12-28-2017, 02:54 PM
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Checkout the Sony XBR55X900E, or the 65" version.

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post #23042 of 23814 Old 12-28-2017, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ThatTVGuy View Post


CES is a few weeks away. What is the likely hood they release a new EVO kit for us? Zero?!
Absolutely zero, I can't believe you guys fell for this Samsung bs. They don't care about older panels, all they care is about selling tvs to the general masses.

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post #23043 of 23814 Old 12-28-2017, 07:16 PM
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Absolutely zero, I can't believe you guys fell for this Samsung bs. They don't care about older panels, all they care is about selling tvs to the general masses.
Well they sure lost out on the Elite Class of TVs to Sony and LG, plus others !

# 1 - Dropped the ball on the promise to support 2013, 2014 and 2015 for 5 years.
# 2 - 2015 made the panels brighter, with no real proper engineering to make sure they didn't burnt themselves out.
# 3 - Went to bottom edge lighting from side edge lighting, causing the lighting module to jump track during shipping, and not living up to their nit specs. (Also from Rtings reviews, the new bottom lit TVs appear to be much hotter in the bottom half of the sets.)
# 4 - Appealing to the masses puts them in a whole lot of competition with the likes of Vizio, TCL, plus MANY others ! (Who sell much cheaper.)
# 5 - CES 2018 - a turn around, or NOT ?
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post #23044 of 23814 Old 12-28-2017, 09:55 PM
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Thanks Art and P5Browne!

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post #23045 of 23814 Old 12-29-2017, 09:19 AM
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Question Panel expected Lifetimes

@Kipp K. , you're welcome.

Since 'LG' is now "elite" I thought I'd better qualify my "display...." advice.

Our first LCD HDTV was Costco's display (it didn't even have a box) Sony KDL40WL135 which they marked down from $1499.99 to $1200 and this was 10/12/2008.

No idea how many hours were already on that panel, but my late wife believed in TV on 24/7 (TV now puts me to sleep) so you can just add up all those hours.

It's crowded off my sig now, but still used weekly and has beautiful PQ that sent my first Samsung (a 6xxx series) back for poor Picture Quality. So that backs up the expected lifetime of LED Television screens of 50-100,000 hours.

However LG's current claim to elite comes from the superior PQ of their OLED panel. I would temper my "display model" purchase recommendation for the OLED's since their expected lifetime is a current unknown.

I would apply this rule to the Samsung JS9500 as well, given their established panel failure rate.
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post #23046 of 23814 Old 12-29-2017, 09:53 PM
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So I got my SEK-3500U all setup with my 60" 8550 panel. I set the option to enable HDMI UHD Color and hooked up my Xbox One S and verified that I got all green check marks verifying that my TV has successfully negotiated that it supports 4K 10-bit with HDR.

I then put in my 'Planet Earth 2' 4K Bluray which says right on the box that it's mastered with HDR (presumably HDR10) and it looked absolutely fantastic, however, when I pressed the 'Info' button on my Samsung remote I did *not* see any [HDR] badge show up, only one that said [UHD] with a resolution of 3840x2160. I could swear the colors looked much deeper and rich, especially in the scenes that had both sunlight and shadow detail. To make sure I was not crazy I took a picture of a scene with the 'HDMI UHD Color' On and then a picture of the same scene with the 'HDMI UHD Color' OFF and there is *definitely* a huge difference with it on.

TLDR: Am I supposed to see an [HDR] badge on my HU8550+SEK-3500U when HDR10 metadata is definitely being detected and displayed by the panel?
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post #23047 of 23814 Old 12-30-2017, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post
So I got my SEK-3500U all setup with my 60" 8550 panel. I set the option to enable HDMI UHD Color and hooked up my Xbox One S and verified that I got all green check marks verifying that my TV has successfully negotiated that it supports 4K 10-bit with HDR.

I then put in my 'Planet Earth 2' 4K Bluray which says right on the box that it's mastered with HDR (presumably HDR10) and it looked absolutely fantastic, however, when I pressed the 'Info' button on my Samsung remote I did *not* see any [HDR] badge show up, only one that said [UHD] with a resolution of 3840x2160. I could swear the colors looked much deeper and rich, especially in the scenes that had both sunlight and shadow detail. To make sure I was not crazy I took a picture of a scene with the 'HDMI UHD Color' On and then a picture of the same scene with the 'HDMI UHD Color' OFF and there is *definitely* a huge difference with it on.

TLDR: Am I supposed to see an [HDR] badge on my HU8550+SEK-3500U when HDR10 metadata is definitely being detected and displayed by the panel?
No HDR badge. If you go to menu >> picture you will see Backlight switch to 20 and contrast to 100 when HDR kicks in. You want to make sure that Color Space is set to Auto or Native. Best setting for HDR is Movie mode. Additional tweaks to consider are increasing Gama by 2 clicks, setting Dynamic Contrast to low or medium and Smart LED to low or standard.
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post #23048 of 23814 Old 12-30-2017, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by poppagene View Post
No HDR badge. If you go to menu >> picture you will see Backlight switch to 20 and contrast to 100 when HDR kicks in. You want to make sure that Color Space is set to Auto or Native. Best setting for HDR is Movie mode. Additional tweaks to consider are increasing Gama by 2 clicks, setting Dynamic Contrast to low or medium and Smart LED to low or standard.
Ok great, no badge. As for settings I have my picture mode on “CAL-NIGHT” with all custom whitepoint/gamma/color space settings that I calibrated myself with my spectrometer and HCFR software. What has me curious now is if the TV has essentially two memories per picture mode, one for SDR (which I calibrated against) and another for HDR when it’s receving that metadata.

Said another way, if I present the TV some HDR content, go into picture mode settings and tweak a bunch of things in that menu (still within CAL-NIGHT), will those tweaks only be used for HDR content? Will my original calibrated settings be automatically restored during normal SDR content?
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post #23049 of 23814 Old 12-30-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post
Ok great, no badge. As for settings I have my picture mode on “CAL-NIGHT” with all custom whitepoint/gamma/color space settings that I calibrated myself with my spectrometer and HCFR software. What has me curious now is if the TV has essentially two memories per picture mode, one for SDR (which I calibrated against) and another for HDR when it’s receving that metadata.

Said another way, if I present the TV some HDR content, go into picture mode settings and tweak a bunch of things in that menu (still within CAL-NIGHT), will those tweaks only be used for HDR content? Will my original calibrated settings be automatically restored during normal SDR content?
Due to a bug Samsung put into a past FW update, only the USB Inputs have the dual settings. HDMI Inputs only have 1 set of settings, except for the Backlight and Contrast.

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post #23050 of 23814 Old 12-30-2017, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post
Ok great, no badge. As for settings I have my picture mode on “CAL-NIGHT” with all custom whitepoint/gamma/color space settings that I calibrated myself with my spectrometer and HCFR software. What has me curious now is if the TV has essentially two memories per picture mode, one for SDR (which I calibrated against) and another for HDR when it’s receving that metadata.

Said another way, if I present the TV some HDR content, go into picture mode settings and tweak a bunch of things in that menu (still within CAL-NIGHT), will those tweaks only be used for HDR content? Will my original calibrated settings be automatically restored during normal SDR content?
Make sure that the color space for HDR is on auto or native rather than on custom.

added:

As @p5browne mentions, for a while the sets gave the ability to have both sdr and hdr settings on hdmi sources like your xbox. This has changed for some of us, myself included. You can use an HDR pattern source such as the R.Masciola's HDR-10 UHD Test Patterns discussed in this thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...-patterns.html to set the 2 point for HDR. I use CalMAN which has an HDR workflow. I don;t use HCFR so it may or may not be compatible with the HDR patterns. The 10 point and Color Space will not be adjustable on this set for HDR and my understanding is that if you want the color space to be accurate, you need to set it to auto or native, so that the set will implement the appropriate settings

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post #23051 of 23814 Old 12-30-2017, 02:49 PM
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Color Space for SDR, leave on Custom if calibrated, Auto if not. (Native is really off as far as accuracy.)
HDR, leave on either of the previous choices due to Samsung pulling the CMS values from the ASM, and are preset by Samsung as to what they think is appropriate. Unfortunately, all panels are different, so their settings will be correct, partially correct, or not very correct. This goes for the 10 Point Grayscale as well. ALL Color Space and 10 Point settings are in the ASM, and only the 2 Point is adjustable.
As far as the HDMI only having basically, one set of values, I calibrate the 4K Blu-ray player Input to UHD Color ON, and the 2 Point to HDR calibrated values. Since HDR bypasses the 10 Point and Color Space, but SDR uses them - I prefer the HDR 2 Point settings for the SDR and HDR playback. (Until Samsung decides to fix the bug, it's a make due.)

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post #23052 of 23814 Old 12-31-2017, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
Due to a bug Samsung put into a past FW update, only the USB Inputs have the dual settings. HDMI Inputs only have 1 set of settings, except for the Backlight and Contrast.
That’s a bummer. So before they nerfed this feature for the HDMI ports, was there an actual menu option to specify if the settings were for HDR or SDR, or did it always relay on the existence of HDR metadata to toggle?

Given the clout this forum often holds, have the right people at Samsung been clued into this issue for a fix? I worry that a 2015 TV is not on the top of their list to fix.

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Originally Posted by poppagene View Post
You can use an HDR pattern source such as the R.Masciola's HDR-10 UHD Test Patterns discussed in this thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...-patterns.html to set the 2 point for HDR. I use CalMAN which has an HDR workflow. I don;t use HCFR so it may or may not be compatible with the HDR patterns.
Thanks, was not aware of this disk. As of yesterday, HCFR (free) just added the ability to generate 10bit HDR RGB triplets with their internal generator. Think Calman’s Client 3 software but with video level support. I may use this disk as a double check; it appears to have an HCFR workflow as well!


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Color Space for SDR, leave on Custom if calibrated, Auto if not. (Native is really off as far as accuracy.)
HDR, leave on either of the previous choices due to Samsung pulling the CMS values from the ASM, and are preset by Samsung as to what they think is appropriate. Unfortunately, all panels are different, so their settings will be correct, partially correct, or not very correct. This goes for the 10 Point Grayscale as well. ALL Color Space and 10 Point settings are in the ASM, and only the 2 Point is adjustable.due.)
When I dove into the ASM to turn on CAL-DAY/CAL-NIGHT I did notice the 2pt gamma with values in the 120 range IIRC. I didn’t see any CMS or 10pt gamma in there, even if read only; are these visible?

Do you actually mess with the 2pt gamma values in the ASM?

My understanding is that these values in the ASM are very coarse adjustments set at the factory to hit a certain tolerance and can take values that would make the picture look absolutely abysmal. The 2pt gamma settings in the standard picture menu (which I call tweaks) are fine adjustments against the values in the ASM. Is this your understanding as well?

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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post
As far as the HDMI only having basically, one set of values, I calibrate the 4K Blu-ray player Input to UHD Color ON, and the 2 Point to HDR calibrated values. Since HDR bypasses the 10 Point and Color Space, but SDR uses them - I prefer the HDR 2 Point settings for the SDR and HDR playback. (Until Samsung decides to fix the bug, it's a make due.)
I see, so both look at the standard menu 2pt tweaks (relative to the ASM values) but only SDR applies the 10pt tweaks (relative to ASM values) but HDR ignores these and uses the default ASM 10pt values.

By setting the 2pt tweaks to HDR appropriate values, do you find yourself maxing out the 10pt tweaks to hit appropriate gamma levels (2.2 or BT.1886) for SDR?

P.S.
Thanks for all the info, very informative and would have taken me quite some time to figure out on my own.

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post #23053 of 23814 Old 12-31-2017, 11:40 PM
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Are you realizing that there's the SM, and then there's the ASM?

Don't bother even trying to tweak the ASM 2 Point and CMS, you're only looking for trouble ! Plus, hours and hours of trying to calibrate!
Entering the SM or ASM puts the system in Dynamic Mode, thusly heating up the LEDs. This in turn means waiting periods to let the LEDs cool down before taking a reading. And on and on for hours!

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post #23054 of 23814 Old 01-01-2018, 07:07 PM
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Are you realizing that there's the SM, and then there's the ASM?
Perhaps not, I’m just familiar with the SM that allowed me to turn on Cal day & night. I also noticed there were 2pt white balance controls in there and based upon one of your old posts from last year you listed the values to this SM offsets & gains. Based on the values It looks like you may have tweaked the Blue gain in the SM and I’m wondering if that’s because your panel was so out of cal from the factory that your 80IRE measurement was so low in blue that you maxed out the blue gain in the standard menu (+50) and still didn’t get the results you wanted?
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post #23055 of 23814 Old 01-01-2018, 10:04 PM
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Perhaps not, I’m just familiar with the SM that allowed me to turn on Cal day & night. I also noticed there were 2pt white balance controls in there and based upon one of your old posts from last year you listed the values to this SM offsets & gains. Based on the values It looks like you may have tweaked the Blue gain in the SM and I’m wondering if that’s because your panel was so out of cal from the factory that your 80IRE measurement was so low in blue that you maxed out the blue gain in the standard menu (+50) and still didn’t get the results you wanted?
First: Gains is 100%, not 80. Offsets are 30%.

The original Gains and Offsets / calibrated to my +/- 3 for the 2 Point Menu on my set from the factory were :

Service Menu White Balances Offsets: Red: 128 / 130 ; Green: 128 / 138 ; Blue: 128 / 128
Service Menu White Balances Gains__: Red: 150 / 166 ; Green: 128 / 135 ; Blue: 166 / 160

Versus today's settings:

Service Menu WBs: R / G / B Offsets : Gains

120 / 120 / 128 : 128 / 128 / 155

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post #23056 of 23814 Old 01-02-2018, 12:11 AM
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First: Gains is 100%, not 80. Offsets are 30%.
I’m sorry, you’re mistaken. Gains should always be measured at 80IRE to set a 2pt white balance. Offsets is a different story; you can go as low as 20IRE but most suggest 30IRE to reduce the effects of sensor noise since many meters, especially spectrophotometers, have issues at the low end. If you think about it, it makes sense to have the offsets/gains be measured with symmetrical values (20/80 IRE); 30IRE only slightly deviates from that but reduction in sensor noise makes it worth it.

I suggest you put your SM gains & offsets back to their default values and rerun all your calibrations again using 80IRE for the gains. I found it very surprising that you had to tweak the SM gains/offsets at all but using 100IRE for your measurements may explain why that was necessary. Using 80IRE you’ll likely find you can hit your targets with only tweaking the standard menu gains/offsets. Also, You don’t have to take my word for it, even Spectracal shows 80IRE for 2pt white balance gains (I assume you’re using Calman.) See the following video in the spoiler below where Spectracal shows 80IRE for the gains, skip to 8m46s into the video.



Quote:
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The original Gains and Offsets / calibrated to my +/- 3 for the 2 Point Menu on my set from the factory were :

Service Menu White Balances Offsets: Red: 128 / 130 ; Green: 128 / 138 ; Blue: 128 / 128
Service Menu White Balances Gains__: Red: 150 / 166 ; Green: 128 / 135 ; Blue: 166 / 160
You really shouldn’t have to tweak the SM gains/offsets just to get your standard menu at +/- 3. All the standard menu does is add/subtract to the values in the SM. I.e. setting your Red Gain in the SM from 150 to 166 is exactly identical to upping your Red Gain in the standard menu by +16. Since the standard menu allows you to go +/- 50, even at +16 you have plenty of headroom left. Now if your TV was so bad out of cal that you were maxing the standard menu (or close to it like 45+), then it does make sense to tweak the SM values to increase your headroom and/or hit your targets.
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post #23057 of 23814 Old 01-02-2018, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post
I’m sorry, you’re mistaken. Gains should always be measured at 80IRE to set a 2pt white balance. Offsets is a different story; you can go as low as 20IRE but most suggest 30IRE to reduce the effects of sensor noise since many meters, especially spectrophotometers, have issues at the low end. If you think about it, it makes sense to have the offsets/gains be measured with symmetrical values (20/80 IRE); 30IRE only slightly deviates from that but reduction in sensor noise makes it worth it...
In the CalMAN Home Enthusiast Workflow, the directions read:

Grayscale Two Point Adjust
1.Adjust the Red and Blue High controls, while measuring a 100% white or 109% peak white (bit level 235 or 255 respectively) grayscale pattern to balance RGB to a deltaE of 3 or below (far right chart).

There is an assumption that you will go on to adjust the 10 point and CMS in subsequent steps.

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post #23058 of 23814 Old 01-02-2018, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post
I’m sorry, you’re mistaken. Gains should always be measured at 80IRE to set a 2pt white balance. Offsets is a different story; you can go as low as 20IRE but most suggest 30IRE to reduce the effects of sensor noise since many meters, especially spectrophotometers, have issues at the low end. If you think about it, it makes sense to have the offsets/gains be measured with symmetrical values (20/80 IRE); 30IRE only slightly deviates from that but reduction in sensor noise makes it worth it.

I suggest you put your SM gains & offsets back to their default values and rerun all your calibrations again using 80IRE for the gains. I found it very surprising that you had to tweak the SM gains/offsets at all but using 100IRE for your measurements may explain why that was necessary. Using 80IRE you’ll likely find you can hit your targets with only tweaking the standard menu gains/offsets. Also, You don’t have to take my word for it, even Spectracal shows 80IRE for 2pt white balance gains (I assume you’re using Calman.) See the following video in the spoiler below where Spectracal shows 80IRE for the gains, skip to 8m46s into the video.





You really shouldn’t have to tweak the SM gains/offsets just to get your standard menu at +/- 3. All the standard menu does is add/subtract to the values in the SM. I.e. setting your Red Gain in the SM from 150 to 166 is exactly identical to upping your Red Gain in the standard menu by +16. Since the standard menu allows you to go +/- 50, even at +16 you have plenty of headroom left. Now if your TV was so bad out of cal that you were maxing the standard menu (or close to it like 45+), then it does make sense to tweak the SM values to increase your headroom and/or hit your targets.
That's my hang up.
Back with the original settings, things have changed a lot if you compare them to the last readings.
# 1 - Back in the good old days, it was click for click for the 2 Point and SM Offsets and Gains. Now Blue Gain in the SM has to go up, to get the 2 Point to come down, and other variations for the 6 sets.
# 2 - In the past, calibrating the 2 Point as 30 and 100, a scan after with the 30 80 showed virtually no change. Maybe time to check again since there's much more hours on the set. Just waiting for another Samsung FW upgrade.
# 3 - Original SEK-2500 SM settings were probably setup with some kind of calibration ? Problem now is, the SEK-3500U was NOT calibrated to our sets. Instead it came with what ever Samsung threw into it. Our sets have changed with usage, FW updates, etc.

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post #23059 of 23814 Old 01-03-2018, 11:23 PM
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30/80 versus 30/100

Tested tonight on my set: results, there were NO differences between the 2 sets of settings. Same as my testing a year ago.
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post #23060 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 05:48 AM
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Recently the image on my TV is green. This behavior has happened with Netflix (Samsung app), Xbox One, Apple TV.
I've already tried to restore to factory defaults and it still did not work.
I own the Samsung HU8700 + SEK 3500 (fw 1520.1)

Does anyone know what might be happening?
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post #23061 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racamo View Post
Recently the image on my TV is green. This behavior has happened with Netflix (Samsung app), Xbox One, Apple TV.
I've already tried to restore to factory defaults and it still did not work.
I own the Samsung HU8700 + SEK 3500 (fw 1520.1)

Does anyone know what might be happening?
Possibly you have the "menu/picture/advance settings/rgb only mode" on the green setting.

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post #23062 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rlb View Post
Possibly you have the "menu/picture/advance settings/rgb only mode" on the green setting.
Sorry, it´s happen with HDR, Ultra HD movies.
For cable box, the image is normal.
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post #23063 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 11:17 AM
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Is anyone watching to see if there are any announcements for the sEK-3500 at CES this year?

John
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post #23064 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racamo View Post
Sorry, it´s happen with HDR, Ultra HD movies.
For cable box, the image is normal.
Could potentially be a handshake issue with the HDMI cable. Try unplugging and plugging back in or a different cable.

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post #23065 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 01:01 PM
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Or the cable itself. Is it a "certified premium" cable?

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post #23066 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikegaudiello View Post
Could potentially be a handshake issue with the HDMI cable. Try unplugging and plugging back in or a different cable.
poster stated it happens with TV app for Netflix

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post #23067 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 03:16 PM
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Where can i get the 1520 update auto update says no update i'm on 1510 now?Thanks
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post #23068 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 05:11 PM
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Where can i get the 1520 update auto update says no update i'm on 1510 now?Thanks
It's called wait your turn, which can be anywhere up to 6 months lately.
Neither Korean, US, nor Canadian websites have it yet. I think the person who does the updating either got fired, quit, or is on an extended vacation. Back after the South Korean Winter Olympics!
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post #23069 of 23814 Old 01-04-2018, 10:40 PM
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I know this has probably been asked many times, but I've searched the thread and can't seem to find a definitive answer. I have a 65HU8550 TS01 panel, with the novatek chipset. I can get an SEK 3500 for $250. Is it worth it?
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post #23070 of 23814 Old 01-05-2018, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikegaudiello View Post
Could potentially be a handshake issue with the HDMI cable. Try unplugging and plugging back in or a different cable.
Resolved!
I changed the settings in ASM -> Engineer Mode -> ADC.
The value for the Green in RGB parameters was very high.
Thank you!
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