"Official" Sony kdl65w850c/ kdl75w850c owners thread - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 1203 Old 05-19-2015, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Yep mate, that's the one. I need to figure out what I want to do with my Plasma set (since they're not being made anymore, it's a keeper). I will do the voltage adjustment eventually to get rid of the pink banding, I have never gamed on this TV though, it's only used for my movies/TV watching needs and it still impresses me with how amazing it's picture quality is. I would be smart to just game on that, but I want something bigger than 58" too.
What a crazy small world my friend, I also have a PN60e8000, that's the set I use for movies. Honestly I would keep your set for movie and TV watching only because it's an amazing set. I can't wait to see what the lag numbers come out to be on this 65 inch, i'm going to game on it some more tonight just to get a feel because I've been away for two days at work. I see by your user name you must like driving games; i use to have a Mitsubishi Lancer evolution viii so I'm guessing by rspec you're probably Into cars and it's either Hondas or Hyundai Genesis r spec... Glad to have you on the thread my brother!

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post #122 of 1203 Old 05-19-2015, 11:51 PM
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What a crazy small world my friend, I also have a PN60e8000, that's the set I use for movies. Honestly I would keep your set for movie and TV watching only because it's an amazing set. I can't wait to see what the lag numbers come out to be on this 65 inch, i'm going to game on it some more tonight just to get a feel because I've been away for two days at work. I see by your user name you must like driving games; i use to have a Mitsubishi Lancer evolution viii so I'm guessing by rspec you're probably Into cars and it's either Hondas or Hyundai Genesis r spec... Glad to have you on the thread my brother!
I don't own the 60" though, it's a 58" model so hopefully we're talking about the same Plasma TV (I've had it for many years so I forget what the model is called exactly). Anyways yes after you game on your Sony Bravia some more, preferably with games where you can feel lag more like twitch shooters and fighting games then let me know if you still recommend the 65" W850c.


As for cars yes, I'm a huge car enthusiast but my username doesn't stand for my loyalty to Japanese cars. I am a Ford fanatic, and in Australia we have our separate division to that of the United States. Our performance division is called Ford Performance Vehicles (FPV) and my car my username is referring to is an F6 Typhoon limited edition RSPEC model. You wouldn't have ever heard of it or seen it in person as they're only sold in Australia and New Zealand. But yes I'm a Ford enthusiast (also love my old school Ford muscle), I respect Japanese cars too but they're not my thing. Thanks for being so welcoming, good to be here.
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post #123 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't own the 60" though, it's a 58" model so hopefully we're talking about the same Plasma TV (I've had it for many years so I forget what the model is called exactly). Anyways yes after you game on your Sony Bravia some more, preferably with games where you can feel lag more like twitch shooters and fighting games then let me know if you still recommend the 65" W850c.


As for cars yes, I'm a huge car enthusiast but my username doesn't stand for my loyalty to Japanese cars. I am a Ford fanatic, and in Australia we have our separate division to that of the United States. Our performance division is called Ford Performance Vehicles (FPV) and my car my username is referring to is an F6 Typhoon limited edition RSPEC model. You wouldn't have ever heard of it or seen it in person as they're only sold in Australia and New Zealand. But yes I'm a Ford enthusiast (also love my old school Ford muscle), I respect Japanese cars too but they're not my thing. Thanks for being so welcoming, good to be here.

Will do, Holden's and that opel lotus omega sedan from the late 80s are some badass cars to me! I love cars too. I guess I should've clarified I have two plasmas made by Samsung: the 58 inch C 8000 and the 60 inch E8000 I believe the C8000 models were out around 2010 and the E8000 were out around 2012. It's really hard to beat plasma when you're used to it my opinion. I will do more and get back to you with my findings but I think the w850c is a great set for the money.
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post #124 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 03:19 AM
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Anybody in SoCal have this set? If so I can knock out a Leo Bodnar test.

We're in 2015 and still don't have an HDTV set that has input lag numbers that match LED monitors, smh. I made the mistake of being perfectly fine with gaming on my 08' Sammy Plasma and then hooking my Box up to my PC monitor and that was it - could never game on a TV since due to input lag sensitivity. I believe my monitor is 9 or 10ms, tried a set with 27ms and couldn't do it. Haven't tried last years w850b @ 17ms, was hoping 2015 would knock that down closer to the 10ms mark but I guess not..
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post #125 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Anybody in SoCal have this set? If so I can knock out a Leo Bodnar test.

We're in 2015 and still don't have an HDTV set that has input lag numbers that match LED monitors, smh. I made the mistake of being perfectly fine with gaming on my 08' Sammy Plasma and then hooking my Box up to my PC monitor and that was it - could never game on a TV since due to input lag sensitivity. I believe my monitor is 9 or 10ms, tried a set with 27ms and couldn't do it. Haven't tried last years w850b @ 17ms, was hoping 2015 would knock that down closer to the 10ms mark but I guess not..
That would be awesome to get that out of the way. The 850b was 24.3ms however I believe. I played some more street fighter 4 and Rayman Origins last night and they seemed to play very very well. I am not the omniscient lag guru but the set handles games very well. Someone in Southern California let this man test the lag on this set; if he gets a good number I bet many people will start asking about these sets; if not !



Let's get some apples to apples data and compare it to the others with the same testing method for validity; doesn't impact me loving this set but would let others know this important figure to many people as a purchasing "feature".

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post #126 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dizzy714 View Post
Anybody in SoCal have this set? If so I can knock out a Leo Bodnar test.

We're in 2015 and still don't have an HDTV set that has input lag numbers that match LED monitors, smh. I made the mistake of being perfectly fine with gaming on my 08' Sammy Plasma and then hooking my Box up to my PC monitor and that was it - could never game on a TV since due to input lag sensitivity. I believe my monitor is 9 or 10ms, tried a set with 27ms and couldn't do it. Haven't tried last years w850b @ 17ms, was hoping 2015 would knock that down closer to the 10ms mark but I guess not..
Depends where in SC you are. I can have this TV in either the central valley or the central coast area over the weekend because I just do not think the 630B is going to work for me. Two sets now with unacceptable flash-lighting (which is probably fine but my OCD doesn't agree).
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post #127 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 11:00 AM
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@Crasi - w950b I guess it was that marked the 17ms! Whoops.

@Mark - I'm in Orange County, Anaheim for specifics.
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post #128 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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@Crasi - w950b I guess it was that marked the 17ms! Whoops.

@Mark - I'm in Orange County, Anaheim for specifics.
Yes, that set is insanely good for lag but blacks ( and clouding was horrible) were not great. Here's an idea do you think you can go to Best Buy and see if they would let you connect it and run the test you just need to connect it to an HDMI port right? They should have demo sets up right now ... Just a thought and thanks for your willingness and offer to test it out my friend.

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post #129 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 11:39 AM
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I'm in San Diego, but the local Fry's has the 65 inch out on display here. Probably a Fry's up there that has it.
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post #130 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 12:32 PM
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If I can find the time to sneak into a store I'll get you guys some numbers, no guarantees though. I have done tests at my local BB before and they look at me like I'm crazy, and then when they figure out that I'm not there to make a purchase they almost haze over a guilt trip - haha.
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post #131 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Dizzy, no pressure just nice to have a willing person to get some data, rtings just ran numbers on the R510c that are budget sets and they are pretty bad as well (40ms range in game mode) Sony sets are not doing very well with latency this year. Like I said these w850 sets feel good to me but maybe I am getting too old to have decent reflexes or I am jaded or maybe the set is actually pretty good for gaming. Numbers don't lie though so until then...
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post #132 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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The more I watch this set the more I like it: the colors pop, blacks seem awesome and games are fun on it. It's not perfect with the slightly darker corners and I have picked up some vertical banding on occasion but the overall satisfaction is like driving a car that just "feels" right, everything working together makes it something very special; awesome set in my opinion. Sony may not be doing well with other sets this year but the w850c series are winners in my opinion!
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post #133 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 08:29 PM
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I measured lag on the KDL-75W850C using my Leo Bodnar tester and got 35ms on the middle bar. I haven't measured the 65" version yet, but have seen it and the 65" and 75" use different panel tech. Hence, input lag could differ between the two sizes.








So, the input lag on the KDL-75W850C is essentially the same as the XBR-55X850C. However, it's two different sizes/series/panels, just a coincidence.
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post #134 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 08:46 PM
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Based on the numbers at rtings, it looks like this may be the general range for these Sony TVs. Too bad. Here's to false hope the 65 inch is the exception.
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post #135 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I measured lag on the KDL-75W850C using my Leo Bodnar tester and got 35ms on the middle bar. I haven't measured the 65" version yet, but have seen it and the 65" and 75" use different panel tech. Hence, input lag could differ between the two sizes.








So, the input lag on the KDL-75W850C is essentially the same as the XBR-55X850C. However, it's two different sizes/series/panels, just a coincidence.
Thanks for taking the time, just out of curiosity what is the difference in the panels? Pretty doubtful that there would be a major difference don't you think? Anything is possible... Also did you turn of the frame dimming or auto adjustment?

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post #136 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 09:32 PM
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35ms for a huge 75" monster screen sounds pretty darn good to me, show me another 75" (that's not 4K) that has less input lag...... I did want the 65" but now I can't get the 75" out of my head haha.
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post #137 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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35ms for a huge 75" monster screen sounds pretty darn good to me, show me another 75" (that's not 4K) that has less input lag...... I did want the 65" but now I can't get the 75" out of my head haha.
I am still considering one to add to my collection, I think I need an intervention. I call it a healthy sickness/ addiction. Can't wait to see what the 65 comes in at.
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post #138 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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35ms for a huge 75" monster screen sounds pretty darn good to me, show me another 75" (that's not 4K) that has less input lag...... I did want the 65" but now I can't get the 75" out of my head haha.
And you sir are correct, the current 75 inch champion according to the input lag database is a Samsung 2013 set with 39ms. Interesting....
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post #139 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 09:54 PM
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And you sir are correct, the current 75 inch champion according to the input lag database is a Samsung 2013 set with 39ms. Interesting....
This is a bad justification, though. Don't want to get all logical on you, but just because there isn't one better doesn't magically turn 35ms into a good score. Further, there are only six sets @ 75 inches tested, and not one is a Sony. IF the 65 inch comes in at 35ms, that's depressing.

That being said, many people won't notice it and it will play fine for them, which is awesome!

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post #140 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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This is a bad justification, though. Don't want to get all logical on you, but just because there isn't one better doesn't magically turn 35ms into a good score. IF the 65 inch comes in at 35ms, that's depressing.

That being said, many people won't notice it and it will play fine for them, which is awesome!
I am now curious about the difference between th 65/75 panels now that RGB brought it up. It is possible that Sony figured because of the price point and size/ the 65 inch would be the ultimate gaming set so they minimized lag on it ( horrible and mostly desperate logic on my part). We shall see soon enough I am sure. The colors on this set are impressive man, really punchy compared to the natural plasma look; it's a cool change and makes it different.
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post #141 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 10:16 PM
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Yeah, I mean anything is possible. I didn't even know they used different panels. I specifically crossed Samsung off my list because of their panel lottery within each model. I thought Sony didn't do it between sizes within the same model class.

I thought you asking about post-processing was the right question, though. Curious how much of that was turned off, game mode on, input renamed / changed to PC (if that matters on this TV), etc. In the end, it really may not matter. Like has been mentioned, they key is going to be real-world experience with the unit.
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post #142 of 1203 Old 05-20-2015, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I mean anything is possible. I didn't even know they used different panels. I specifically crossed Samsung off my list because of their panel lottery within each model. I thought Sony didn't do it between sizes within the same model class.

I thought you asking about post-processing was the right question, though. Curious how much of that was turned off, game mode on, input renamed / changed to PC (if that matters on this TV), etc. In the end, it really may not matter. Like has been mentioned, they key is going to be real-world experience with the unit.
Thank you. I enjoy gaming on it , just feels buttery smooth ( and my son enjoys it) I agree that's what matters. I played SSx on it, burnout Paradise, MLB 13 the show. And all seemed good. For example in burnout Paradise I have no problem dodging oncoming traffic and weaving in and out of tight spaces without hitting a single thing. If this set does have higher lag then I actually seem to game better with it
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post #143 of 1203 Old 05-21-2015, 12:19 AM
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Thank you. I enjoy gaming on it , just feels buttery smooth ( and my son enjoys it) I agree that's what matters. I played SSx on it, burnout Paradise, MLB 13 the show. And all seemed good. For example in burnout Paradise I have no problem dodging oncoming traffic and weaving in and out of tight spaces without hitting a single thing. If this set does have higher lag then I actually seem to game better with it
Let's be honest, if anyone could feel lag it would be you considering you're used to the Plasma and you rate it that highly. I have a slight feeling the 65" Sony will rate in much lower when it comes to input lag compared to the 75".. but I'll probably be wrong as usual lol. I'm also very curious about the different panels being used, which one is the more high end? Can anyone explain...

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post #144 of 1203 Old 05-21-2015, 12:31 AM
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Yeah, I mean anything is possible. I didn't even know they used different panels. I specifically crossed Samsung off my list because of their panel lottery within each model. I thought Sony didn't do it between sizes within the same model class.

I thought you asking about post-processing was the right question, though. Curious how much of that was turned off, game mode on, input renamed / changed to PC (if that matters on this TV), etc. In the end, it really may not matter. Like has been mentioned, they key is going to be real-world experience with the unit.
The panel lottery is the use of different panels within the same model class and size. You can be assured that all 75" sony w850c's are using the exact same panel. The 65" w850c could be using a different panel than the 75", but there wont be any variance within the same model and size class. As far as the 35ms, thats not that great. Looks like Sony is giving up.
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post #145 of 1203 Old 05-21-2015, 12:34 AM
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Let's be honest, if anyone could feel lag it would be you considering you're used to the Plasma and you rate it that highly. I have a slight feeling the 65" Sony will rate in much lower when it comes to input lag compared to the 75".. but I'll probably be wrong as usual lol. I'm also very curious about the different panels being used, which one is the more high end? Can anyone explain...
His plasma for sure has around the same lag (most likely 37ms, looking at other Samsung models from around that time period). The old camera method rated many displays at 16ms. When the LB lag test came out, those same displays were actually hitting almost 40ms. As for the 65" have much lower input lag, not likely at all. It will be maybe 1ms or 2ms higher or lower due to differences in panel response time. Also, the look of that pixel structure for the 75" seems to be a Samsung S-PVA panel, which is very good in the LCD world.
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post #146 of 1203 Old 05-21-2015, 01:28 AM - Thread Starter
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His plasma for sure has around the same lag (most likely 37ms, looking at other Samsung models from around that time period). The old camera method rated many displays at 16ms. When the LB lag test came out, those same displays were actually hitting almost 40ms. As for the 65" have much lower input lag, not likely at all. It will be maybe 1ms or 2ms higher or lower due to differences in panel response time. Also, the look of that pixel structure for the 75" seems to be a Samsung S-PVA panel, which is very good in the LCD world.
I would not be surprised if the 65 has a Samsung panel as well; seems to have excellent color vibrancy to it, I know because I have played panel lottery before and received samsungs without TXXX panels, there is an obvious quality difference. My 65 inch set absolutely pops so I am going to say it is more than likely a Sammy as well. I agree with your lag prediction and maybe I am use to that range of latency at this point ( 4 plus years) on the same Sammy plasma could do it.

The next question I would have is that if 1 frame of lag = 16.6 ms then wouldn't anything from 16.7 ms- 33.1 ms equal 2 frames regardless of the number? So if the 65 comes in at 33ms or 32ms wouldn't that be the similar in frames all the way down to 17ms? Just curious how possible it is to perceive "within a frame" lag?
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post #147 of 1203 Old 05-21-2015, 01:39 AM
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I would not be surprised if the 65 has a Samsung panel as well; seems to have excellent color vibrancy to it, I know because I have played panel lottery before and received samsungs without TXXX panels, there is an obvious quality difference. My 65 inch set absolutely pops so I am going to say it is more than likely a Sammy as well. I agree with your lag prediction and maybe I am use to that range of latency at this point ( 4 plus years) on the same Sammy plasma could do it.

The next question I would have is that if 1 frame of lag = 16.6 ms then wouldn't anything from 16.7 ms- 33.1 ms equal 2 frames regardless of the number? So if the 65 comes in at 33ms or 32ms wouldn't that be the similar in frames all the way down to 17ms? Just curious how possible it is to perceive "within a frame" lag?
No, what ever the number in ms is, that the exact amount of lag that will be experienced. For example, if you are playing a 60fps game, and your tv has an input lag of 24ms, you will always be reacting 1.5 frames behind real time.
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post #148 of 1203 Old 05-21-2015, 01:52 AM - Thread Starter
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No, what ever the number in ms is, that the exact amount of lag that will be experienced. For example, if you are playing a 60fps game, and your tv has an input lag of 24ms, you will always be reacting 1.5 frames behind real time.
Right, but help me out here. My understanding is that games only display in 1 frame intervals correct? So if I push a button ( or move the analog stick) and it registers between frames ( after 16.7 ms and before 33.2 ms) wouldn't the output on the monitor be perceived exactly the same? I have played on higher lag sets and I can sense it 50-60ms, maybe I can't discern change lower than 33.2? Just giving some possible variables...

Edit: was just reading and came across this, it's just the internet but it lays out my thought process better than I did. Also remember I owned 2 w800b sets before sending them back for non uniform clouded screens and dead pixels (24.3 ms lag) and can't differentiate this set from that one in terms of lag; hence why I say maybe I can't tell below 33 ms.
http://www.strengthofthewolf.com/exp...g-display-lag/

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post #149 of 1203 Old 05-21-2015, 02:51 AM
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Right, but help me out here. My understanding is that games only display in 1 frame intervals correct? So if I push a button ( or move the analog stick) and it registers between frames ( after 16.7 ms and before 33.2 ms) wouldn't the output on the monitor be perceived exactly the same? I have played on higher lag sets and I can sense it 50-60ms, maybe I can't discern change lower than 33.2? Just giving some possible variables...

Edit: was just reading and came across this, it's just the internet but it lays out my thought process better than I did. Also remember I owned 2 w800b sets before sending them back for non uniform clouded screens and dead pixels (24.3 ms lag) and can't differentiate this set from that one in terms of lag; hence why I say maybe I can't tell below 33 ms.
http://www.strengthofthewolf.com/exp...g-display-lag/
An LCD panel draws each line individually. While what you and that link is saying would seem correct, its not. For example, back to the 24ms of display lag. Lets say your playing a game and you make an input on the controller. If said input was made right at the start of a new frame, you would not see that input until 1 and a half screen refreshes later. When you are using the LB input lag tester, you can measure 3 sections. Top, middle and bottom. Each give different numbers, and it gets progressively higher as you go down the screen (some displays will refresh from bottom to top, this is rare though). Lets continue to use a 24ms display as an example. The 24ms number was taken from the middle reading. If the panel was a 60hz display, the top number would read 16ms, and the bottom number would read 32 ms. As another example, my w900a reads 19ms in the middle. When I read the top bar it reads 17ms, and the bottom bar reads 21ms. In total, it takes 4ms for the w900a to refresh its screen from top to bottom, in other words it refreshes its screen 240fps (slightly over 4ms).
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Also Crasi1411, for the reasons I listed above, that is why you may think your plasma is much more responsive. Plasma's are unique in that they do not used sample-and-hold like LCD's. Instead, they refresh the entire screen at the same time. So if a plasma read 27ms (such as the Panasonic U50, which is the fastest known plasma to date as far as the LB input lag tester is concerned), then it will read 27ms on all three bars. For this reason most gamers swear that plasma feels "more responsive" than lcd's.
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