"Official" Sony kdl65w850c/ kdl75w850c owners thread - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 03:08 AM - Thread Starter
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An LCD panel draws each line individually. While what you and that link is saying would seem correct, its not. For example, back to the 24ms of display lag. Lets say your playing a game and you make an input on the controller. If said input was made right at the start of a new frame, you would not see that input until 1 and a half screen refreshes later. When you are using the LB input lag tester, you can measure 3 sections. Top, middle and bottom. Each give different numbers, and it gets progressively higher as you go down the screen (some displays will refresh from bottom to top, this is rare though). Lets continue to use a 24ms display as an example. The 24ms number was taken from the middle reading. If the panel was a 60hz display, the top number would read 16ms, and the bottom number would read 32 ms. As another example, my w900a reads 19ms in the middle. When I read the top bar it reads 17ms, and the bottom bar reads 21ms. In total, it takes 4ms for the w900a to refresh its screen from top to bottom, in other words it refreshes its screen 240fps (slightly over 4ms).

Got it and thank you for the clear explanation; very disappointing Sony didn't keep or improve their numbers from last year. The set is still great and I am keeping it, now to see where the 65 inch measures; rtings said they would test the 65 inch in an e-mail response so we will know soon enough. Have you seen the sets yet to tell any differences? Your input is much appreciated.

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post #152 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 07:58 AM
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The panel lottery is the use of different panels within the same model class and size. You can be assured that all 75" sony w850c's are using the exact same panel. The 65" w850c could be using a different panel than the 75", but there wont be any variance within the same model and size class. As far as the 35ms, thats not that great. Looks like Sony is giving up.
Thanks. That alleviates some concern.
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post #153 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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The panel lottery is the use of different panels within the same model class and size. You can be assured that all 75" sony w850c's are using the exact same panel. The 65" w850c could be using a different panel than the 75", but there wont be any variance within the same model and size class. As far as the 35ms, thats not that great. Looks like Sony is giving up.

Could someone in the know who understands pixel substructures or knows the specifics of different types of panels take a look at the 65 and 75 inch w850c's and let us know what the differences are in the types of panel technology implemented? It would be great to get that information under our belt as well. Thank you for your help fellow Audio Video Scientists!
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post #154 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 10:06 AM
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Thanks for taking the time, just out of curiosity what is the difference in the panels? Pretty doubtful that there would be a major difference don't you think? Anything is possible... Also did you turn of the frame dimming or auto adjustment?

My pleasure! I thought the 75" panel might be S-IPS from the sub-pixel shape, but others seem to think it is S-PVA? My XBR8 has S-PVA panel, but a much older generation and looks different.

The 65" panel appears to have a corner/edge domain fill, so it looks a lot different up close than the 75". Going to try to get the 65" tested soon. I didn't notice anything bad about the 65" when I initially checked it out, just that it has a panel that reminds me of the HX9, though obviously not the exact same panel.

The Leo Bodnar tester measures pixel response + processing lag, so it's numbers are generally on the conservative side. As others have noted, it doesn't put plasma displays in the best of light. Who's buying new plasma TVs these days anyways?


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As another example, my w900a reads 19ms in the middle. When I read the top bar it reads 17ms, and the bottom bar reads 21ms. In total, it takes 4ms for the w900a to refresh its screen from top to bottom, in other words it refreshes its screen 240fps (slightly over 4ms).

It's interesting how even though LCDs are S&H, they scan the screen sort of like a CRT! The LB tester is also useful for confirming panel refresh rate ( (BB - TB) * 1000 = Hz)! One of Samsung's 2014 large models (I don't recall) actually refreshed bottom up! D:

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post #155 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 10:38 AM
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Don't know if this helps, but here is a closer closeup of the 75w850c.
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post #156 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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My pleasure! I thought the 75" panel might be S-IPS from the sub-pixel shape, but others seem to think it is S-PVA? My XBR8 has S-PVA panel, but a much older generation and looks different.

The 65" panel appears to have a corner/edge domain fill, so it looks a lot different up close than the 75". Going to try to get the 65" tested soon. I didn't notice anything bad about the 65" when I initially checked it out, just that it has a panel that reminds me of the HX9, though obviously not the exact same panel.

The Leo Bodnar tester measures pixel response + processing lag, so it's numbers are generally on the conservative side. As others have noted, it doesn't put plasma displays in the best of light. Who's buying new plasma TVs these days anyways?





It's interesting how even though LCDs are S&H, they scan the screen sort of like a CRT! The LB tester is also useful for confirming panel refresh rate ( (BB - TB) * 1000 = Hz)! One of Samsung's 2014 large models (I don't recall) actually refreshed bottom up! D:
p

Ok I have no clue what corner/ edge domain fill means (crazy how in depth these topics can get but awesome nonetheless) for panels, how would that apply to picture image? Thanks again this is interesting information to me ( love to learn)! Let's see those numbers and a closeup of the 65 inch from someone who can get those types of pics and compare for fun.
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post #157 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Something strange I just was watching cable with my son and went into color settings because everything was really bright and it changed as soon as I right clicked on the color it changed immediately to be the correct color space ( close to d6500) which is cinema pro ( almost looked like vivid colors but the setting was cinema pro). I'm wondering if after firmware updates you might have to do the trick are used to have to do on my Samsung DLP which was to switch a picture mode ( or in this instance go into the color setting and right click) to get the correct settings to reapply to the set... Seems like a firmware glitch for those with this model.

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post #158 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 02:48 PM
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Don't know if this helps, but here is a closer closeup of the 75w850c.
This is a Samsung S-PVA panel. The only better panel would be a PSA panel, and its only slightly better in black level.

EDIT: There are no 75" IPS panels. Its a Samsung PVA panel.

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post #159 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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This is a Samsung S-PVA panel. The only better panel would be a PSA panel, and its only slightly better in black level.

EDIT: There are no 75" IPS panels. Its a Samsung PSA panel.
So is it PSA or S-PVA your edit is different than your original post. Just read that PSA panels have slightly slower response times, I assume the cheaper 65 inch I have would utilize the S-PVA panel to save costs for sure then, correct? So "possibly" it would have a little better reading...or not.

Also can you kindly answer the corner edge domain fill question I had earlier? I am lost with that one

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post #160 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 04:01 PM
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So is it PSA or S-PVA your edit is different than your original post. Just read that PSA panels have slightly slower response times, I assume the cheaper 65 inch I have would utilize the S-PVA panel to save costs for sure then, correct? So "possibly" it would have a little better reading...or not.

Also can you kindly answer the corner edge domain fill question I had earlier? I am lost with that one
Sorry meant PVA.
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post #161 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry meant PVA.
Thanks for clarification. How are people taking pictures of individual pixels? I can't do it with my iPhone can I?
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post #162 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 06:01 PM
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Thanks for clarification. How are people taking pictures of individual pixels? I can't do it with my iPhone can I?

I had a USB microscope lying around. I thought I could finally put some use to that thing.
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I had a USB microscope lying around. I thought I could finally put some use to that thing.
Just figured I was an idiot with how to accomplish taking a photo, that's good to know. I am curious still on the 65 and 75 inch panel differences and what image/ lag differences there will be if any. Also if the 75 is better I may pick one of those up as well, I know I can knock another $100 to $150 off the current pricing if I negotiate it right so a 75 inch for 2350 out the door is pretty sweet; I know more about that model in regard to lag and pixel substructure than my set already
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post #164 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 07:15 PM
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Also Crasi1411, for the reasons I listed above, that is why you may think your plasma is much more responsive. Plasma's are unique in that they do not used sample-and-hold like LCD's. Instead, they refresh the entire screen at the same time. So if a plasma read 27ms (such as the Panasonic U50, which is the fastest known plasma to date as far as the LB input lag tester is concerned), then it will read 27ms on all three bars. For this reason most gamers swear that plasma feels "more responsive" than lcd's.
Yeah but first hand experiences don't lie, I've talked to a lot of gamers (some even pro) and they prefer a Plasma TV to an LCD as they swear by it and it's responsiveness. So obviously because of this method Plasma TV's are more responsive, right?
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post #165 of 1202 Old 05-21-2015, 09:30 PM
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I'm coming from a PN64D8000 Samsung plasma and only own plasma TVs (all Samsung). Looking to upgrade to 75" but am worried that I won't be happy with the PQ. Those of you who went from plasma to this TV are you regretting it? Missing anything that your plasma offered? I've owned my TV for about 5 years and still looks great but it just looks small mounted on my 19' wall. I think the additional foot of screen will bring back that WOW factor.

Reason for upgrading I have a fairly large living room and I sit about 12-15' away from it. Also have been considering Samsung 7150 model.

Rarely watch movies in the dark. Living room also has 2 skylights, sliding glass door and 2 large windows. Mainly concerned about how well movies look and no juttery picture while watching sports (College Football mainly). Honestly only have seen 2 LCD/LED (40-Sony & 52-Samsung) TVs both older and neither were anything spectacular.

* I don't live close to any cities where there is electronic stores, only in store option is Wal-Mart I bought my previous TVs all on Amazon based off of reviews and help from AVS. Best Buy is over an hour away, Fry's is about 2+ hours away, Best Buy with Magnolia 2-3 hours away (longer if traffic is bad). Originally wanted to spend 2k but the last time we were at BB we checked out options in that range and they all looked ehh, just not very impressive. So we upped the budget. Don't know how much higher I need to go to be satisfied.

Thank you for any help, sorry for the long story....
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post #166 of 1202 Old 05-22-2015, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm coming from a PN64D8000 Samsung plasma and only own plasma TVs (all Samsung). Looking to upgrade to 75" but am worried that I won't be happy with the PQ. Those of you who went from plasma to this TV are you regretting it? Missing anything that your plasma offered? I've owned my TV for about 5 years and still looks great but it just looks small mounted on my 19' wall. I think the additional foot of screen will bring back that WOW factor.

Reason for upgrading I have a fairly large living room and I sit about 12-15' away from it. Also have been considering Samsung 7150 model.

Rarely watch movies in the dark. Living room also has 2 skylights, sliding glass door and 2 large windows. Mainly concerned about how well movies look and no juttery picture while watching sports (College Football mainly). Honestly only have seen 2 LCD/LED (40-Sony & 52-Samsung) TVs both older and neither were anything spectacular.

* I don't live close to any cities where there is electronic stores, only in store option is Wal-Mart I bought my previous TVs all on Amazon based off of reviews and help from AVS. Best Buy is over an hour away, Fry's is about 2+ hours away, Best Buy with Magnolia 2-3 hours away (longer if traffic is bad). Originally wanted to spend 2k but the last time we were at BB we checked out options in that range and they all looked ehh, just not very impressive. So we upped the budget. Don't know how much higher I need to go to be satisfied.

Thank you for any help, sorry for the long story....
Hey Randall,
I have two Samsung plasmas pn58c8000 and pn60e8000. Your question is a great one, and I will do my best to help. Coming from plasma I don't think much can directly compare; if you look at what you are getting for the price on these sets I think it makes good sense. First the screen will handle reflections better than the plasma due to a semi matte finish, secondly this set is very punchy and uniform (great at night but isn't one of your criteria) but will look bad off angle unlike the plasmas that don't lose colors when viewed at angles. Lastly I have seen the backlights on bright scenes and it really doesn't bother me but that is an individual tolerance thing. Overall I very much enjoy the set, it's just a different technology than plasma so don't expect the same type of picture quality. Let me know if I can help more, I will try to be as objective and honest as possible.
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post #167 of 1202 Old 05-22-2015, 09:51 AM
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I measured the 65" model and found the input lag to be 0.7ms slower than the 75" model. In either case this is slightly faster (1ms) than my old XBR8, which I've found to be fine for gaming over the past 6 years. I also took a close up of the 65" panel and it appears sub-pixels are partitioned 1/3 and 2/3 - the bottom third illuminates before illuminating the top two thirds. Any ideas what this panel might be?





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post #168 of 1202 Old 05-22-2015, 10:30 AM
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Hey Randall,
I have two Samsung plasmas pn58c8000 and pn60e8000. Your question is a great one, and I will do my best to help. Coming from plasma I don't think much can directly compare; if you look at what you are getting for the price on these sets I think it makes good sense. First the screen will handle reflections better than the plasma due to a semi matte finish, secondly this set is very punchy and uniform (great at night but isn't one of your criteria) but will look bad off angle unlike the plasmas that don't lose colors when viewed at angles. Lastly I have seen the backlights on bright scenes and it really doesn't bother me but that is an individual tolerance thing. Overall I very much enjoy the set, it's just a different technology than plasma so don't expect the same type of picture quality. Let me know if I can help more, I will try to be as objective and honest as possible.
Well it sounds promising because 99% of the time I'll be directly in front of it. My room is 19x20', with us sitting that far away 12-15' we don't sit off angle. Only time I can see it being a problem is for large gatherings but even then, I'll be in front of the screen

My wife complains that my current TV isn't bright enough.
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post #169 of 1202 Old 05-22-2015, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I had a USB microscope lying around. I thought I could finally put some use to that thing.
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Well it sounds promising because 99% of the time I'll be directly in front of it. My room is 19x20', with us sitting that far away 12-15' we don't sit off angle. Only time I can see it being a problem is for large gatherings but even then, I'll be in front of the screen

My wife complains that my current TV isn't bright enough.
This one is bright that's for sure
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post #170 of 1202 Old 05-22-2015, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks

[QUOTE=rgb32;34417642]I measured the 65" model and found the input lag to be 0.7ms slower than the 75" model. In either case this is slightly faster (1ms) than my old XBR8, which I've


Thank you brother, so basically the same... Interesting; not bad and I love my set but not what we had hoped for, Sony is not looking good for very low lag sets this year!

I would also like to know the panel type as well, it looks good for TV viewing that's for sure and that's going to be about 80% of my time with the set anyway (majority of gaming still on the plasma).
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I measured the 65" model and found the input lag to be 0.7ms slower than the 75" model. In either case this is slightly faster (1ms) than my old XBR8, which I've found to be fine for gaming over the past 6 years. I also took a close up of the 65" panel and it appears sub-pixels are partitioned 1/3 and 2/3 - the bottom third illuminates before illuminating the top two thirds. Any ideas what this panel might be?





Just curious did you ever turn off the light sensor / auto dimming feature on the 65/75 inch set? It is on in game mode by default. This is different than the Eco setting under power management that is off by default. It is under the main screen of picture adjustments ( not sure it will make any difference), I appreciate your time doing those measurements.
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post #172 of 1202 Old 05-22-2015, 04:39 PM
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I measured the 65" model and found the input lag to be 0.7ms slower than the 75" model. In either case this is slightly faster (1ms) than my old XBR8, which I've found to be fine for gaming over the past 6 years. I also took a close up of the 65" panel and it appears sub-pixels are partitioned 1/3 and 2/3 - the bottom third illuminates before illuminating the top two thirds. Any ideas what this panel might be?






Any way you can get a closer view of the pixel matrix? That also looks like a PVA panel, the type with dual zones. The lower zone is for darker images and the upper zone only lights up on white or near white images.
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post #173 of 1202 Old 05-22-2015, 04:42 PM
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Also, does the 65" have a glossy coating and the 75" has a semi-gloss coating?
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post #174 of 1202 Old 05-22-2015, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, does the 65" have a glossy coating and the 75" has a semi-gloss coating?
65 has matte finish on my set, I see what you are saying in that photo it looks glossy, weird but my set diffuses quite well and looks matte or "semi-gloss"
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post #175 of 1202 Old 05-22-2015, 11:57 PM
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Anyone have the 75" wall mounted? My wife wants to see some pictures of actual owners, not the stock photos online.

I'm not sure if I missed it or if it's been asked, but is there a "panel lottery" with these TVs? That's whats scaring me off of Samsung right now. Considering my location, I don't want to deal with getting a bad set and having to return it.
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post #176 of 1202 Old 05-23-2015, 05:25 AM
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Anyone have the 75" wall mounted? My wife wants to see some pictures of actual owners, not the stock photos online.

I'm not sure if I missed it or if it's been asked, but is there a "panel lottery" with these TVs? That's whats scaring me off of Samsung right now. Considering my location, I don't want to deal with getting a bad set and having to return it.
They're just talking about different sizes can come from different manufacturers sometime. All of the same size will be the same panel. They say the 75 inch is the Samsung 6300 panel and since they also make a 65 inch, I would bet it's also a Samsung.

I checked the review of the 6300 and noted the best black uniformity because this set does got good black uniformity, but then I thought... what size did they review? Some tests you might take with a grain of salt just because they are reviewing a different size.

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post #177 of 1202 Old 05-23-2015, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Also, does the 65" have a glossy coating and the 75" has a semi-gloss coating?
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They're just talking about different sizes can come from different manufacturers sometime. All of the same size will be the same panel. They say the 75 inch is the Samsung 6300 panel and since they also make a 65 inch, I would bet it's also a Samsung.

I checked the review of the 6300 and noted the best black uniformity because this set does got good black uniformity, but then I thought... what size did they review? Some tests you might take with a grain of salt just because they are reviewing a different size.
Makes sense to me, I mean as far as deep uniform black levels this set is amazing to me; the lag is good enough for me and like I said pretty much undetectable when feeding it a 1080 signal; I do notice slightly ( and I mean slightly) more when 720p games are upscaled but that is the case for any native 1080p set. Still loving it and think it's a great value for those wanting a big screen for a good value and are not ready to make the 4k jump until everything is implemented and available ( like me)!
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post #178 of 1202 Old 05-25-2015, 08:52 AM
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How is the 3d on this set? and it seems that this tv doesn't come with 3d glasses? which active 3d glasses are best?
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post #179 of 1202 Old 05-25-2015, 01:05 PM
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Only place I've seen 3d talked about was rtings.com on the other sets like the x850c and they mentioned crosstalk. My last set had passive 3d and I enjoyed 3d for a while and still prefer to watch children's animation movies that are good for adults too through 3d but that's about it. I'm tempted to try active but I think would insist on rechargable glasses because I would never replace the batteries in something that wasn't used much.

Last edited by quisp65; 05-25-2015 at 03:52 PM.
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post #180 of 1202 Old 05-26-2015, 08:05 PM
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Over in the XBR thread there's a comment about sideloading Kodi on those sets. Has anyone tried that on the w850c sets? I'm confident the proc is the same, but given that I'm seriously leaning towards a w850c at present, it'd be nice to know for sure... Half the reason I'm looking for a new set is that I just got a new HTPC that doesn't play well with my current TV (a Mits ws55315...) and a set that could run Kodi would be both awesome (no need to mess with the HTPC) and terrible (what do I do with this HTPC I don't need anymore?).
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