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post #1 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Smile An Objective look at HDR.

So far no one has done a truly objective look at what HDR content truly means. Therefore, I did some tests last night to demonstrate what “HDR” truly means with respect to the new UHD HDR Blu ray format.

The first thing I want to demonstrate is that the actual HDR content contains additional data or image detail that is not in the standard 1080p Blu ray. This data can be displayed by ANY TV whether it has the HDMI 2.0a capabilities that allow it to read the HDR header information or not.

The images below show the maximum amount of shadow detail you can extract from a scene in the movie the Martian(Approximately 59:45 into the movie). With the 1080p Blu ray you can see that half of Mars is literally clipped into Black. If you adjust the settings here the black background will bloom above zero black but it will not show any more useful detail of the portion that is in the shadow.

1080p Blu ray



UHD HDR Blu ray



With the UHD HDR Blu ray you can see how adjusting the settings can extract that extra detail that does not exist on the 1080p Blu ray. All of these images come from a Vizio M80 TV which is not an HDR TV because it lacks the ability to read the HDR headers and it lacks the Wide Color Gamut capabilities. However, it is clear that it can in fact show all of the extra shadow details that the UHD HDR Blu ray contains.

Now this is not to say that non HDR TVs are the equivalent of true HDR TVs. They are not. However, most people here have not been stating the differences correctly.

With Non HDR TVs they can take advantage of the extra shadow and highlight detail that is contained on the disc up to the capabilities of their backlight. However, non HDR TVs require extensive manual settings adjustments in order to display the content properly. With TVs that have HDMI 2.0a capabilities the TV will read the HDR header information and make these adjustments automatically behind the scenes. The average person would never invest the time into manually adjusting the settings like I have done to produce these results with a non HDR TV. That is a gigantic plus for any TV that has HDMI 2.0 capabilities when using HDR content.

In addition my Vizio M-series TVs lack the wide color gamut capabilities that SOME HDR TVs have. There is literally no settings adjustment I can make to show the colors that a Wide Color Gamut(WCG) HDR TV can display. That is another very significant difference.

The issue is that some TVs that are called HDR TVs because they have the HDMI 2.0a capabilities to read the HDR header information lack the Wide Color Gamut capabilities. That really limits the HDR benefits of those so called “HDR Lite” TVs. Some examples of these TVs that lack Wide Color Gamut capabilities are the 2015 Samsung JU series(JU7500,JU7100,JU6700…etc) and the 2015 Sony X830c and X810c TVs

With an HDR Lite TV you get the automatic settings adjustments over a non HDR TV but that is just about it. Their color spectrum is slightly broader than something like the non HDR Vizio M-series but not significantly broader.

Then finally we have Premium HDR TVs that have HDMI 2.0 capabilities with VERY broad Color Spectrums and also very bright backlights with darker black capabilities. Their bright back lights with great local dimming capabilities allow them to display a broader dynamic range than lesser TVs but that doesn’t mean they show any more shadow or highlight detail than even non HDR TVs.

Dynamic range is simply the range from the darkest black to the brightest white that the TV can display. It is a misconception that the content controls this dynamic range. The HDR Blu ray doesn’t magically make your TV display a darker black. The content contains data that represents “Zero Black”. If your TV is properly mapping its “Zero Black” value to match the content the TV will show its minimum Black level whether the content is HDR or not.

What the brighter back light does is allow your TV to display a bigger difference between its true black and true white. That difference is often perceived as “Better Contrast” and is often very desirable.

At the moment virtually all of the UHD Blu rays are produced from a 1080p source so unfortunately none of the extra resolution and detail of UHD Blu rays can be realized for an entire movie yet. That will change over the next few weeks when true “4K sourced” UHD Blu rays are released. Hopefully, over time more and more discs will be sourced from true 4K sources so all 4K TVs can take advantage of that extra resolution.

I think the most important question you should ask yourself when trying to decide what TV to get for HDR content is “Do you want to pay extra for Wide Gamut Color capabilities or not”. The difference in color capabilities between these TVs is very significant and unlike resolution differences it can be perceived no matter how far you sit from the TV. It can even improve the perceived effect of off axis color loss which is a big benefit for some people.

Also please note that “Quantum Dot” technology is not an absolute requirement for Wide Color Gamut capabilities. Some TVs can get a wider color range without that technology. It is traditionally much better if it does have it but it doesn’t necessarily mean that if it doesn’t have “Quantum Dot” technology that it is not a WCG TV.

I hope this write-up helps you in making your TV purchase.
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post #2 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 07:09 AM
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Interesting comparison. While I see more gradients in the dark portion of Mars in the UHD version, the left side of the image showing space does not show a very good black level, like brightness is set too high. I think the black level and color look better on the Blu-Ray to be honest. UHD looks washed out, like gamma is not correct.

I think the issue is there is no way to calibrate HDR at the moment so you have no idea what the image should look like. So you can adjust settings to make it look how you want but that may or may not match the intent.
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post #3 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 08:23 AM
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Very nice and simple comparison. Thanks. I do agree with primetimeguy's assessment of the brightness. I think the contrast issue, at least as far as my limited understanding of HDR goes at this point in time, will continue to be a small fly in the ointment until the technology matures a bit more.
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post #4 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Interesting comparison. While I see more gradients in the dark portion of Mars in the UHD version, the left side of the image showing space does not show a very good black level, like brightness is set too high. I think the black level and color look better on the Blu-Ray to be honest. UHD looks washed out, like gamma is not correct.

I think the issue is there is no way to calibrate HDR at the moment so you have no idea what the image should look like. So you can adjust settings to make it look how you want but that may or may not match the intent.
I contend that you shouldn’t try to make HDR material look like any particular spec or someone else’s TV. The material contains FAR more information than any display today can actually show. The idea is that you should be trying to maximize the output to the full extent of your display’s capabilities instead of trying to meet an arbitrary set of specifications.

If you like all of the dark shadows to be pure Black and you don’t want to see the additional detail then you can configure the TV to do that with the HDR material. Just look at the UHD HDR Blu ray sample picture below. This is with the settings set to mimic the shadow detail clipping that you would see with 1080p Blu ray.



The main point is that you can’t get the extra detail if you want it with 1080p Blu ray. That extra data doesn’t exist on the 1080p Blu ray disc. You have the choice to display it or not with the UHD HDR Blu ray. Having the choice is always a good thing.

I do want to mention something though. Since my TV does not read the HDR header information I have full control over all of the settings. I can easily configure the TV to clip the shadow or show the shadow detail with a quick setting adjustment.

For HDMI 2.0a TVs that read the HDR header data they sometimes disable certain settings in the TV. That might mean that if you want to show the extra detail and your TV is not currently configured to do that you “possibly” might not be able to make the necessary adjustments to show that detail.

If anyone could post a picture of their HDR TV displaying this scene from the UHD HDR Blu ray I would appreciate it. I know it won’t be a 1:1 comparison since the camera and parameters are different. However, it would be nice to see that the HDR TVs are also displaying the extra shadow detail along with maintaining a good black level.
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post #5 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Interesting comparison. While I see more gradients in the dark portion of Mars in the UHD version, the left side of the image showing space does not show a very good black level, like brightness is set too high. I think the black level and color look better on the Blu-Ray to be honest. UHD looks washed out, like gamma is not correct.

I think the issue is there is no way to calibrate HDR at the moment so you have no idea what the image should look like. So you can adjust settings to make it look how you want but that may or may not match the intent.
The important thing to remember is that just because you think the left side should be pure black doesn’t mean it is encoded as pure black on the disc. I do amateur astronomy and people always ask why I don’t make my sky background pure Black in the pictures I produce.

I always tell them that if I make it pure black then I will lose the very fine details that exist in space. I could easily clip out the very fine nebulousity in my pictures and get that Inky black look people desire. However, that would diminish the data in the photo in my opinion.

If you watch this scene in the movie you will see that the left side of the screen actually has some sort of reflection(Perhaps from the lens) or additional light present. The disc literally has the left side encoded with values above “True Black”. Therefore, if your TV is showing true black in that area then you are actually clipping part of the signal out. Traditionally that is something that is frowned upon with a properly configured display.

The TV manufactures know that people want Inky blacks everywhere they can get them so they could in theory pre-program the HDR TVs to clip a certain portion of the content in order to create the illusion that more of the content is true black than it really is. This gives you less shadow information but it would probably be desirable to most people.

I am just glad my TV allows me to configure the image however I want to see it. I do wish my TV had the wide color gamut though. The additional color spectrum really does make the movie watching experience much better.
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firstly, i don't think it's fair to have an objective look at HDR using a 4K tv that lacks HDR and WCG.


Secondly, these comparisons are indeed really interesting provided it really doesn't have HDR of WCG support. - The images are clearly much different.


But without the HDR or WCG support, the 4K TV should only have one advantage over a 1080p, and that's resolution. Meaning we shouldn't see such a massive difference.
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post #7 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
firstly, i don't think it's fair to have an objective look at HDR using a 4K tv that lacks HDR and WCG.


Secondly, these comparisons are indeed really interesting provided it really doesn't have HDR of WCG support. - The images are clearly much different.


But without the HDR or WCG support, the 4K TV should only have one advantage over a 1080p, and that's resolution. Meaning we shouldn't see such a massive difference.
That is because you have a preconceived notion that a non HDR TV will show the exact same thing for a 1080p Blu ray as it does with a 1080p sourced UHD HDR Blu ray which I have proven is not the case.

I ask you to look at this with an open mind. Put aside everything you have heard about HDR before and examine what is actually happening instead of what someone else has surmised will happen without any evidence to back that up. That would be the true definition of objectivity.

Yes this comparison by no means gives the full story because I simply cannot show the color differences without a Wide Color Gamut TV. In addition I can’t demonstrate whether an HDR TV shows the extra detail or not by default. However, this thread does give clear data showing the differences between the capabilities of non HDR material and HDR material. It also demonstrates how non HDR display can utilize that HDR data.

Hopefully, other people with HDR TVs will make similar posts comparing their TVs. That will help everyone to see exactly what the truth is with HDR content and all types of displays and not just non HDR displays.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post
Interesting comparison. While I see more gradients in the dark portion of Mars in the UHD version, the left side of the image showing space does not show a very good black level, like brightness is set too high. I think the black level and color look better on the Blu-Ray to be honest. UHD looks washed out, like gamma is not correct.

I think the issue is there is no way to calibrate HDR at the moment so you have no idea what the image should look like. So you can adjust settings to make it look how you want but that may or may not match the intent.
To me, that left side of the screen doesn't appear to be washed out, it appears to better show the light being bounced off the surface of the planet.
I don't own this disc, or I would post a screenshot as it appears on my set.
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post #9 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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To me, that left side of the screen doesn't appear to be washed out, it appears to better show the light being bounced off the surface of the planet.
I don't own this disc, or I would post a screenshot as it appears on my set.
I agree with your assessment. I would rather see that data than just see Black nothingness. If the director intended us to see nothing but black there the editor would have been instructed to clip out that data in the editing of the film.
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post #10 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
So far no one has done a truly objective look at what HDR content truly means. Therefore, I did some tests last night to demonstrate what “HDR” truly means with respect to the new UHD HDR Blu ray format.

The first thing I want to demonstrate is that the actual HDR content contains additional data or image detail that is not in the standard 1080p Blu ray. This data can be displayed by ANY TV whether it has the HDMI 2.0a capabilities that allow it to read the HDR header information or not.

The images below show the maximum amount of shadow detail you can extract from a scene in the movie the Martian(Approximately 59:45 into the movie). With the 1080p Blu ray you can see that half of Mars is literally clipped into Black. If you adjust the settings here the black background will bloom above zero black but it will not show any more useful detail of the portion that is in the shadow.

1080p Blu ray



UHD HDR Blu ray



With the UHD HDR Blu ray you can see how adjusting the settings can extract that extra detail that does not exist on the 1080p Blu ray. All of these images come from a Vizio M80 TV which is not an HDR TV because it lacks the ability to read the HDR headers and it lacks the Wide Color Gamut capabilities. However, it is clear that it can in fact show all of the extra shadow details that the UHD HDR Blu ray contains.

Now this is not to say that non HDR TVs are the equivalent of true HDR TVs. They are not. However, most people here have not been stating the differences correctly.

With Non HDR TVs they can take advantage of the extra shadow and highlight detail that is contained on the disc up to the capabilities of their backlight. However, non HDR TVs require extensive manual settings adjustments in order to display the content properly. With TVs that have HDMI 2.0a capabilities the TV will read the HDR header information and make these adjustments automatically behind the scenes. The average person would never invest the time into manually adjusting the settings like I have done to produce these results with a non HDR TV. That is a gigantic plus for any TV that has HDMI 2.0 capabilities when using HDR content.

In addition my Vizio M-series TVs lack the wide color gamut capabilities that SOME HDR TVs have. There is literally no settings adjustment I can make to show the colors that a Wide Color Gamut(WCG) HDR TV can display. That is another very significant difference.

The issue is that some TVs that are called HDR TVs because they have the HDMI 2.0a capabilities to read the HDR header information lack the Wide Color Gamut capabilities. That really limits the HDR benefits of those so called “HDR Lite” TVs. Some examples of these TVs that lack Wide Color Gamut capabilities are the 2015 Samsung JU series(JU7500,JU7100,JU6700…etc) and the 2015 Sony X830c and X810c TVs

With an HDR Lite TV you get the automatic settings adjustments over a non HDR TV but that is just about it. Their color spectrum is slightly broader than something like the non HDR Vizio M-series but not significantly broader.

Then finally we have Premium HDR TVs that have HDMI 2.0 capabilities with VERY broad Color Spectrums and also very bright backlights with darker black capabilities. Their bright back lights with great local dimming capabilities allow them to display a broader dynamic range than lesser TVs but that doesn’t mean they show any more shadow or highlight detail than even non HDR TVs.

Dynamic range is simply the range from the darkest black to the brightest white that the TV can display. It is a misconception that the content controls this dynamic range. The HDR Blu ray doesn’t magically make your TV display a darker black. The content contains data that represents “Zero Black”. If your TV is properly mapping its “Zero Black” value to match the content the TV will show its minimum Black level whether the content is HDR or not.

What the brighter back light does is allow your TV to display a bigger difference between its true black and true white. That difference is often perceived as “Better Contrast” and is often very desirable.

At the moment virtually all of the UHD Blu rays are produced from a 1080p source so unfortunately none of the extra resolution and detail of UHD Blu rays can be realized for an entire movie yet. That will change over the next few weeks when true “4K sourced” UHD Blu rays are released. Hopefully, over time more and more discs will be sourced from true 4K sources so all 4K TVs can take advantage of that extra resolution.

I think the most important question you should ask yourself when trying to decide what TV to get for HDR content is “Do you want to pay extra for Wide Gamut Color capabilities or not”. The difference in color capabilities between these TVs is very significant and unlike resolution differences it can be perceived no matter how far you sit from the TV. It can even improve the perceived effect of off axis color loss which is a big benefit for some people.

Also please note that “Quantum Dot” technology is not an absolute requirement for Wide Color Gamut capabilities. Some TVs can get a wider color range without that technology. It is traditionally much better if it does have it but it doesn’t necessarily mean that if it doesn’t have “Quantum Dot” technology that it is not a WCG TV.

I hope this write-up helps you in making your TV purchase.
Very informative comparison
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post #11 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 10:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
That is because you have a preconceived notion that a non HDR TV will show the exact same thing for a 1080p Blu ray as it does with a 1080p sourced UHD HDR Blu ray which I have proven is not the case.

I ask you to look at this with an open mind. Put aside everything you have heard about HDR before and examine what is actually happening instead of what someone else has surmised will happen without any evidence to back that up. That would be the true definition of objectivity.

Yes this comparison by no means gives the full story because I simply cannot show the color differences without a Wide Color Gamut TV. In addition I can’t demonstrate whether an HDR TV shows the extra detail or not by default. However, this thread does give clear data showing the differences between the capabilities of non HDR material and HDR material. It also demonstrates how non HDR display can utilize that HDR data.

Hopefully, other people with HDR TVs will make similar posts comparing their TVs. That will help everyone to see exactly what the truth is with HDR content and all types of displays and not just non HDR displays.

Well I mean you've posted proof. And CLEARLY there's a massive difference.


It's undeniable.


But theoretically, a 4K TV without WCG and HDR doesn't have the specs to outperform anything blu ray is capable of (aside from resolution of course). They're both 8 bit rec 709. It doesn't make sense logically for them to look any different unless the 4K Blu version is just graded differently. Even still, I wouldn't expect to see differences like this.


Really interesting pics though.
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post #12 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
firstly, i don't think it's fair to have an objective look at HDR using a 4K tv that lacks HDR and WCG.


Secondly, these comparisons are indeed really interesting provided it really doesn't have HDR of WCG support. - The images are clearly much different.


But without the HDR or WCG support, the 4K TV should only have one advantage over a 1080p, and that's resolution. Meaning we shouldn't see such a massive difference.
Bu bu bu but.......... people that play games on PC say that resolution is a BIG thing!! I mean if 4K is really 4 times the resolution of 1080p then it does provide extra details even if it's a non HDR, WGC 4Ktv


I should also add a disclaimer that when comparing 4k and 1080p the size and viewing distance is a factor that can't be ignored too. So in a way your statement of not being able to see a massive difference would be right if one sitting say 10ft away while looking at a 30inch 1080p and 4k side by side.

Replace that tv with a 70 inch while keeping the distance the same at 10ft and you'd see a big difference, even if the 4k tv didn't have all the hdr, wgc whatever

@mpgxsvcd - I see you finally got around to doing the thread comparison. Very interesting! So does that mean you won't be getting a HDR, WGC 4ktv?

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post #13 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 10:22 AM
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I think what you're seeing isn't the true HDR image. It's your TV trying to display what it's given. It may contain extra shadow detail, but doesn't exactly match what a hdr enabled TV would show. You need to compare the same thing on a true hdr enabled TV.

More detail is shown on the bottom image, but it seems to be missing some brightness information. The dark side of Mars is way too bright relative to the bright side.
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Well I mean you've posted proof. And CLEARLY there's a massive difference.


It's undeniable.


But theoretically, a 4K TV without WCG and HDR doesn't have the specs to outperform anything blu ray is capable of (aside from resolution of course). They're both 8 bit rec 709. It doesn't make sense logically for them to look any different unless the 4K Blu version is just graded differently. Even still, I wouldn't expect to see differences like this.


Really interesting pics though.
Nice comparison, but my line of thinking is the same. It seems as if the two discs were just graded differently. The detail had to be there all along when it was "filmed." For whatever reason, they chose to crush it on the bluray.

This HDR thing reminds me a lot of photography, and shooting RAW vs jpeg. When I process my photos, I consider myself the "director" and tweak them as I see fit. I may want to bring out shadows, or make them darker, saturate or desaturate colors, sharpen or unsharpen the photo, etc. The RAW file contains tons of data, and I can do this, unlike a jpeg where a lot of the data is thrown away.

HDR raises a lot of calibration issues. How do we know our TVs are calibrated correctly? How to we know we're seeing what the director intended? I guess maybe this is why true HDR sets lock the user out of the settings. OTOH, I don't think I like being locked out of the settings on my own TV.
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post #15 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I agree with your assessment. I would rather see that data than just see Black nothingness. If the director intended us to see nothing but black there the editor would have been instructed to clip out that data in the editing of the film.
@mpgxsvcd posted this on the P series forum....is this the header information showing up on my vizio? Watching the 4k vs 1080p clip, the 4k is MUCH better on the Lego Movie...I played both back to back and took pictures on my phone, so it doesnt capture just how much better the uhd version was....( i will say that the colors on mad dogs looked the same, so is amazon showing just 8 bit color?)If vizios can only get 8 bit video, why are the highlights so much better, and the colors brighter and less flat? Lego might be the first 4k blu ray Ill buy, if vudu looks this good, the disc should amaze...
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post #16 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 11:33 AM
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The important thing to remember is that just because you think the left side should be pure black doesn’t mean it is encoded as pure black on the disc. I do amateur astronomy and people always ask why I don’t make my sky background pure Black in the pictures I produce.

I always tell them that if I make it pure black then I will lose the very fine details that exist in space. I could easily clip out the very fine nebulousity in my pictures and get that Inky black look people desire. However, that would diminish the data in the photo in my opinion.

If you watch this scene in the movie you will see that the left side of the screen actually has some sort of reflection(Perhaps from the lens) or additional light present. The disc literally has the left side encoded with values above “True Black”. Therefore, if your TV is showing true black in that area then you are actually clipping part of the signal out. Traditionally that is something that is frowned upon with a properly configured display.

The TV manufactures know that people want Inky blacks everywhere they can get them so they could in theory pre-program the HDR TVs to clip a certain portion of the content in order to create the illusion that more of the content is true black than it really is. This gives you less shadow information but it would probably be desirable to most people.

I am just glad my TV allows me to configure the image however I want to see it. I do wish my TV had the wide color gamut though. The additional color spectrum really does make the movie watching experience much better.
I get what you are trying to say, but true black is true black, your display can't get any darker. In still appears to me that the black level is much higher on the UHD version. I know you said raising brightness on the Blu-Ray shows no more detail. But I need to see it to believe it. Or a comparison with a more comparable black level. A lot has to do with gamma as well.

So I think this is interesting I'm not convinced we are comparing apples to apples and really have a fair comparison.
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post #17 of 134 Old 02-19-2016, 12:43 PM
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I agree with your assessment. I would rather see that data than just see Black nothingness. If the director intended us to see nothing but black there the editor would have been instructed to clip out that data in the editing of the film.
That's not quite true. Just because it is there doesn't mean they saw it. All depends on the calibration of their monitor.
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Well I mean you've posted proof. And CLEARLY there's a massive difference.


It's undeniable.


But theoretically, a 4K TV without WCG and HDR doesn't have the specs to outperform anything blu ray is capable of (aside from resolution of course). They're both 8 bit rec 709. It doesn't make sense logically for them to look any different unless the 4K Blu version is just graded differently. Even still, I wouldn't expect to see differences like this.


Really interesting pics though.


The uhd version of the martian received a new color grade over the standard blu-ray version. Mystery solved.

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@mpgxsvcd posted this on the P series forum....is this the header information showing up on my vizio? Watching the 4k vs 1080p clip, the 4k is MUCH better on the Lego Movie...I played both back to back and took pictures on my phone, so it doesnt capture just how much better the uhd version was....( i will say that the colors on mad dogs looked the same, so is amazon showing just 8 bit color?)If vizios can only get 8 bit video, why are the highlights so much better, and the colors brighter and less flat? Lego might be the first 4k blu ray Ill buy, if vudu looks this good, the disc should amaze...
If you are trying to watch "Streaming" HDR material with a non HDR TV you aren't actually receiving the HDR signal. HDR on streaming services is different. They literally have two seperate encodes of the movie. There is an HDR stream and an SDR stream. If your Tv can't read the HDR headers the streaming site won't send you the HDR stream. In most cases you will not see the HDR logo for those movies either.

UHD HDR Blu ray is different. They physically can't fit two copies of the movie on a single disc. Therefore, Samsung(In this case) designed the player to convert the color spectrum the player outputs to REC.709 for all TVs without HDMI 2.0a compliance.
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Well I mean you've posted proof. And CLEARLY there's a massive difference.


It's undeniable.


But theoretically, a 4K TV without WCG and HDR doesn't have the specs to outperform anything blu ray is capable of (aside from resolution of course). They're both 8 bit rec 709. It doesn't make sense logically for them to look any different unless the 4K Blu version is just graded differently. Even still, I wouldn't expect to see differences like this.


Really interesting pics though.
You have based your conclusion off of assumptions("They're both 8 bit rec 709") that may or may not be true. You don't know if it is getting the 10 bit signal or not. You don't know what the Tv does if it receives a 10 bit signal. Those are all things that you should try to test instead of just assuming.
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I contend that you shouldn’t try to make HDR material look like any particular spec or someone else’s TV. The material contains FAR more information than any display today can actually show. The idea is that you should be trying to maximize the output to the full extent of your display’s capabilities instead of trying to meet an arbitrary set of specifications.

If you like all of the dark shadows to be pure Black and you don’t want to see the additional detail then you can configure the TV to do that with the HDR material. Just look at the UHD HDR Blu ray sample picture below. This is with the settings set to mimic the shadow detail clipping that you would see with 1080p Blu ray.

The main point is that you can’t get the extra detail if you want it with 1080p Blu ray. That extra data doesn’t exist on the 1080p Blu ray disc. You have the choice to display it or not with the UHD HDR Blu ray. Having the choice is always a good thing.

I do want to mention something though. Since my TV does not read the HDR header information I have full control over all of the settings. I can easily configure the TV to clip the shadow or show the shadow detail with a quick setting adjustment.

For HDMI 2.0a TVs that read the HDR header data they sometimes disable certain settings in the TV. That might mean that if you want to show the extra detail and your TV is not currently configured to do that you “possibly” might not be able to make the necessary adjustments to show that detail.

If anyone could post a picture of their HDR TV displaying this scene from the UHD HDR Blu ray I would appreciate it. I know it won’t be a 1:1 comparison since the camera and parameters are different. However, it would be nice to see that the HDR TVs are also displaying the extra shadow detail along with maintaining a good black level.
I just started watching the Blu-Ray and the right side of Mars in your screen capture is very crushed compared to what I see on my TV. But that could also be your capture method and my PC monitor. So if that is what the Blu-Ray looks like in real life for you I think you have some settings not right, or calibrated at least.
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That's not quite true. Just because it is there doesn't mean they saw it. All depends on the calibration of their monitor.
I guarantee their monitor shows more than my M-series TV does. If they didn't see it then they aren't doing their job.
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I guarantee their monitor shows more than my M-series TV does. If they didn't see it then they aren't doing their job.
Unless your brightness and gamma are cranked way too high and their's were not.
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Nice comparison, but my line of thinking is the same. It seems as if the two discs were just graded differently. The detail had to be there all along when it was "filmed." For whatever reason, they chose to crush it on the bluray.

This HDR thing reminds me a lot of photography, and shooting RAW vs jpeg. When I process my photos, I consider myself the "director" and tweak them as I see fit. I may want to bring out shadows, or make them darker, saturate or desaturate colors, sharpen or unsharpen the photo, etc. The RAW file contains tons of data, and I can do this, unlike a jpeg where a lot of the data is thrown away.

HDR raises a lot of calibration issues. How do we know our TVs are calibrated correctly? How to we know we're seeing what the director intended? I guess maybe this is why true HDR sets lock the user out of the settings. OTOH, I don't think I like being locked out of the settings on my own TV.
Just for the record. Everyone understands they didn't go into orbit around Mars to get this shot for the movie, right? This is computer generated and yes the data is there even in the source for the 1080p Blu ray or the DVD for that matter. However, those two mediums cannot store the extra data below "Video Black" so it is clipped out in the DVD and 1080p Blu ray versions. The UHD HDR Blu ray can store that information so it is there for you to utilize or not utilize if you so desire.

Yes it is exactly like RAW vs. JPG. The RAW higher bit depth file contains much more information. You can either use it or discard it. The decision is totally up to you.

The colors for HDR content cannot be "calibrated" to a specification like we did for DVDs and 1080p Blu rays and REC.709. The only specifications you could use for UHD HDR Blu ray are DCI-P3 and REC.2020 for colors. Both of those exceed the limits of almost every single consumer TV on the market today. If you calibrated to either of those specs then you would clip the high ends of the spectrum and cause more harm to the image than good.

Instead an HDR TV is calibrated to the limits of the display by the manufacturer. That is why they have to take control of some of the settings. That guarantees that the TV won't be pushed past its limits causing clipping and causing you to make a support call to complain about your brand new TV.

For non HDR TVs you must adjust these settings manually and it is very tedious and you always run the risk of clipping the signal because you are making adjustments in the blind.

I have never contended that buying a non HDR TV is a good choice for HDR content. I have just stated that it can utilize some aspects of the HDR material that do not exist in the standard 1080p Blu ray. My whole point of posting this thread is to get people to stop saying "A non HDR TV shows the exact same thing with UHD HDR Blu ray as it does with 1080p Blu ray except for the resolution difference".

Ironically at the moment The statement above is backwards. Non HDR TVs can take advantage of some of the HDR aspects of UHD Blu ray. However, no TV can take advantage of the resolution benefits yet because the content is all sourced from 1080p at the moment.
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If you are trying to watch "Streaming" HDR material with a non HDR TV you aren't actually receiving the HDR signal. HDR on streaming services is different. They literally have two seperate encodes of the movie. There is an HDR stream and an SDR stream. If your Tv can't read the HDR headers the streaming site won't send you the HDR stream. In most cases you will not see the HDR logo for those movies either.

UHD HDR Blu ray is different. They physically can't fit two copies of the movie on a single disc. Therefore, Samsung(In this case) designed the player to convert the color spectrum the player outputs to REC.709 for all TVs without HDMI 2.0a compliance.
no i get that streaming shouldn't show anything different....just didn't know that the uhd version clearly has a different , better color grade then regular 1080p, so now you get the better resolution and color...had no idea they reworked them for the different releases...
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My PS4 will play blacker than black (less than 16) material. From what I understand, though, this isn't how discs are mastered. Black is 16. So now on UHD discs, black is no longer 16?
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My PS4 will play blacker than black (less than 16) material. From what I understand, though, this isn't how discs are mastered. Black is 16. So now on UHD discs, black is no longer 16?
Technically UHD HDR Blu ray contains WAY blacker than black and WAY whiter than white. It is at least 10 bit which would be at least 1024 stops. REC.709 is at most 256 stops and for video it is typically a lot less than that.

The trick is getting zero black in the content lined up with zero black in the TV. It really would be great if we had a UHD HDR Blu ray disc with the test patterns like the grey ramp on it for the non HDR TVs. That would make manually adjusting the settings so much easier. I wonder if Joe Kane or Spears and Munsil are planning on doing a disc like that?
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Technically UHD HDR Blu ray contains WAY blacker than black and WAY whiter than white. It is at least 10 bit which would be at least 1024 stops. REC.709 is at most 256 stops and for video it is typically a lot less than that.

The trick is getting zero black in the content lined up with zero black in the TV. It really would be great if we had a UHD HDR Blu ray disc with the test patterns like the grey ramp on it for the non HDR TVs. That would make manually adjusting the settings so much easier. I wonder if Joe Kane or Spears and Munsil are planning on doing a disc like that?
http://www.videoessentials.com/dve-uhd.html

Give it a go and let us know how it works out.
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My PS4 will play blacker than black (less than 16) material. From what I understand, though, this isn't how discs are mastered. Black is 16. So now on UHD discs, black is no longer 16?
In 10 bit space black for HDR is level 64, just like it is for 10 bit SDR. You are not supposed to see things below level 64. The output curve for HDR is in luminance levels and calls for 0 nits for level 64.

You may notice that 64 is 4 times 16. That is because black is level 16 in 8 but space.

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What about these Edge-lit UHDP sets? How exactly are they displaying a higher dynamic range? Local dimming edge-lit is almost as much of a gimmick as dynamic contrast, and it's clear that some sort of dynamic contrast numbers are being used if an edge-lit set can be UHDP certified, because we all know that they aren't capable of doing 1000 nits and .05 nits at the same time within the same portion of the television.

It seems to me that the only types of displays that can legitimately do HDR would be a good FALD set and an OLED, and that edge-lit HDR sets are inherently "HDR lite" no matter what kind of certification they receive. The fact that an edge-lit set can receive a UHDP cert, in my mind, calls into question the legitimacy of UHDP. No one here takes dynamic contrast numbers seriously, and yet they're suddenly good enough for a UHDP certification.
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