Official Vizio 2016/2017 P Series Owners ONLY Thread UHD/HDR/DV No Price Talk Please - Page 1480 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #44371 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jbauer View Post
thomasfxlt -> sorry, not trying to be "smart" here, but I thought that HDR10 support was supposed to be added last year, a month after the P Series was released. I haven't been paying attention. Did that not happen? I've only seen Dolby Vision on my set so far.

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Hdr10 is already implemented. It's not the same as hdr10+.

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post #44372 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jbauer View Post
thomasfxlt -> sorry, not trying to be "smart" here, but I thought that HDR10 support was supposed to be added last year, a month after the P Series was released. I haven't been paying attention. Did that not happen? I've only seen Dolby Vision on my set so far.



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Yes it was added, for HDMI outside sources. That was back at the end of last year.


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post #44373 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:43 AM
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Gotya. Thanks all!

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post #44374 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
work in process. I suspect the correct pricing on the P75 is $3499.


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It's "regular" now, eagle eyed members find the discrepancies on the site (pricing, specs, etc) and eventually they get fixed. We've seen plenty of copy and paste jobs in the past cause issues as well


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post #44375 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
It is quite simple actually.

I am sitting in front of that very scene from the Revenant in HDR and non HDR at the moment. Here is what the UHD HDR Blu ray and the regular Blu ray look like with my 2016 P75. There is no possible way he produced that color spectrum on "Calibrated" without an HDR signal. As Thomas stated a few posts ago the 2016 P-series clips to REC.709 if it is not receiving an HDR signal.

Now I fully admit that this just might be a simple mistake. I bet Matt just doesn't realize that if you put the Samsung in Movie mode it doesn't automatically enable full HDR. My understanding is that you have to also enable the "UHD Color" option as well in order to get full HDR. He probably just assumed that putting it in Movie mode was enough. I don't believe that is the case.
Not that I'm disagreeing with the comparison, but why in the world would Samsung make you "turn on" HDR? Did they make people turn on 1080P back in the early 2000's even if it was already receiving a 1080P signal? seems like a terrible UX.
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post #44376 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by craiger8811 View Post
Not that I'm disagreeing with the comparison, but why in the world would Samsung make you "turn on" HDR? Did they make people turn on 1080P back in the early 2000's even if it was already receiving a 1080P signal? seems like a terrible UX.
That I don't know. You would have to ask Samsung. Also someone please double check me on that. I do not have the Q7 so I am not certain that UHD color is not on by default with that TV. The TV I tried it on before required some manual settings adjustments in order to enable HDR. That may not be the case now.
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post #44377 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
The reason would only lie in HDR10+ requiring HDMI 2.1 vs 2.0a. Without having any technical basis for discussion, the initial assumption would be the combination of bitrates and 4k spec simply needs a bigger pipe than may exist for HDR10+. I think we all hope that HDR10+ is possible on the P series. I'm not holding my breath.


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If DV can fit through HDMI 1.4a there's no reason why HDR10+ can't fit in 2.0a. Seems like it would require very minimal overhead to compute the dynamic metadata of HDR10+. HDR10+ is still less bandwidth intensive as DV - and that is 12 bit.

Nevertheless, no reason it can't be enabled for streaming without HDMI compatibility like Samsung is doing for 2016/2017 models.

If the unit has the horsepower for dolby vision, it certainly can handle HDR10+
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post #44378 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post

Matt's comparison picture

hmmmm. i want to believe, but the non hdr seems to have backlight off too? is that the 4k bluray? same equipment? same tv settings?

I know DV and HDR look amazing on my set now, but i dont know if the non hdr seems accurate. Am i wrong guys?
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post #44379 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
They were feeding both TVs the same HDR signal. The difference is that with the Vizio you just need to put it on the Calibrated mode and it will enable HDR. Your don't even need to enable color sub sampling to get HDR. Color sub sampling just enables 4:4:4 @ 60 FPS.

However, the other TVs may require more steps than just putting them in their "Movie" or calibrated modes. You probably have to also turn on their WCG settings as well. It appears that Vizio neglected to do that step here and they aren't being totally forthright about that.
Subsampling is for engaging wide color gamut.

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post #44380 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Samurai G0SU View Post
hmmmm. i want to believe, but the non hdr seems to have backlight off too? is that the 4k bluray? same equipment? same tv settings?

I know DV and HDR look amazing on my set now, but i dont know if the non hdr seems accurate. Am i wrong guys?
And this is where the obsessive tangent involving colors and settings has led us... right on schedule

the entire purpose of the comparison is to demonstrate the difference in backlighting tech between the full array vizio and comparable samsung models - which all have edge lighting.

once again, let there be no mistake for those that want to obsess over nonsense - There is no calibration or setting tweak that will make those gray black bars on the samsung actually black. This is the entire point of the comparison - That edge lighting is garbage.
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post #44381 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:58 AM
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1- If i'm not in the beta, will I be able to buy the new remote??

2- Is the freezing issue has been fixed in the new firmware?
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post #44382 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I disagree there. The true default for the Vizio is actually "Standard". Now I know it gives you a message saying turn it to "Calibrated" when you first turn it on. However, the true default mode is "Standard". If you go into Best Buy I would be willing to bet that they are all on "Standard". Therefore, this really isn't using the true default modes either. They are selectively putting the Vizio display in its best light and covertly selecting less than the best for the Samsung models.
They changed the other brand modes also. They said movie mode or calibrated etc. Read for Christ sakes....lol

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post #44383 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Samurai G0SU View Post
hmmmm. i want to believe, but the non hdr seems to have backlight off too? is that the 4k bluray? same equipment? same tv settings?

I know DV and HDR look amazing on my set now, but i dont know if the non hdr seems accurate. Am i wrong guys?
Yes everything was the exact same for the pictures I posted. One was the HDR Blu ray on "Calibrated Dark" with no changes. The other was the regular Blu ray upscaled by the Samsung Blu ray player to 2160p with "Calibrated Dark". Nothing else was changed.

It is entirely possible that the local dimming of the Q7 is turned off or at least turned down by default. I think Matt's comparison has some serious flaws. I could make the Samsung look much better than that and I don't even mean by calibrating it. I simply mean by selecting the setting that enable HDR.

Again here is the RTINGS.com statement about all of the things you have to do to enable HDR with the Samsung Q7. It is actually quite extensive. I gaurantee there are tons of people out there watching SDR on there brand new very expensive Samsung Q7 that think they are watching HDR.


From RTINGS.com review of the Q7

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sam...ings?uxtv=833f

Quote:
For watching HDR content via an HDMI input it is important to set the 'HDMI UHD Color' on for each HDMI input that will receive the HDR content. This will allow the HDMI port to transmit the bandwidth necessary for HDR. If the 'HDMI UHD Color' is not turned on, some devices might not see the Q7F as being HDR compatible. For HDR content, it is also preferable to set the 'Backlight' to max, set 'Local Dimming' to 'High' and set the 'Color Space Settings' to 'Auto' or 'Native', since HDR does not use the same color space as SDR content.
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post #44384 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
They were feeding both TVs the same HDR signal. The difference is that with the Vizio you just need to put it on the Calibrated mode and it will enable HDR. Your don't even need to enable color sub sampling to get HDR. Color sub sampling just enables 4:4:4 @ 60 FPS.

However, the other TVs may require more steps than just putting them in their "Movie" or calibrated modes. You probably have to also turn on their WCG settings as well. It appears that Vizio neglected to do that step here and they aren't being totally forthright about that.
So with this in mind.. to do you own calibration you want to choose one of the "calibrated" modes, then begin making your changes? To keep HDR on I mean. If you did your settings from "standard" HDR would not work?
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post #44385 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
And this is where the obsessive tangent involving colors and settings has led us... right on schedule

the entire purpose of the comparison is to demonstrate the difference in backlighting tech between the full array vizio and comparable samsung models - which all have edge lighting.

once again, let there be no mistake for those that want to obsess over nonsense - There is no calibration or setting tweak that will make those gray black bars on the samsung actually black. This is the entire point of the comparison - That edge lighting is garbage.
Well no setting except for Setting Local Dimming to 'High' which RTINGS.com says is not set there by default. Matt explicitly said that they simply just changed the TVs to their "Calibrated" or "Movie" modes and then left them alone. If he did what he said then those black bars could get a lot darker simply by turning up the Q7's local dimming.
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post #44386 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:04 AM
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2- Is the freezing issue has been fixed in the new firmware?
I haven't had any freezing in my P55 since the latest beta firmware hit.
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post #44387 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I am not nit picking here. I am not even suggesting that the displays need to be calibrated. I am not even talking about local dimming either. However, what I am saying is "Don't show me an HDR signal on one display and a non-HDR signal on another display and expect me to believe that is a fair comparison". The colors on the Samsung TVs in his pictures are not representative of what those displays actually do when they are receiving an HDR signal. That is deceptive.

I would be saying the same thing no matter what manufacture did this. It isn't right to deceive.
They had the media setting them up even perfrming factory resets. I'm sure someone knew what they were doing to ensure they were both HDR. Why are you being so negative Nancy. Have faith that the right steps were taken by those who were there. Mark Henninger was there..... He's a Samsung lover. We'll see what he says.

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post #44388 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by GCM707 View Post
So with this in mind.. to do you own calibration you want to choose one of the "calibrated" modes, then begin making your changes? To keep HDR on I mean. If you did your settings from "standard" HDR would not work?
I am going to let Shoman answer this one. He is the best person to ask "calibration" questions to.
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post #44389 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
If DV can fit through HDMI 1.4a there's no reason why HDR10+ can't fit in 2.0a. Seems like it would require very minimal overhead to compute the dynamic metadata of HDR10+. HDR10+ is still less bandwidth intensive as DV - and that is 12 bit.



Nevertheless, no reason it can't be enabled for streaming without HDMI compatibility like Samsung is doing for 2016/2017 models.



If the unit has the horsepower for dolby vision, it certainly can handle HDR10+


If it works, it will work because of the encoding bitrate. Published standard is HDMI 2.1. If somehow the HDR consortium enforces compliance with encoding standards, we'll have to see if Vizio has the pipe internally. Hope so.


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post #44390 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:06 AM
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The one thing that confuses me is for what reason is Full UHD Color, HDMI subsmapling, WCG, whatever you wanna call it on all these sets from different manufacturers defaulted to OFF? Am I wrong to assume that enabling it shouldn't degrade anything and only kick in when the TV receives a signal which utilizes it?

I noticed with the Samsung, Vizio, AND LG displays I dealt with a few months ago. All had to be toggled on.

You would think enabling this by DEFAULT would benefit the non-savvy consumer to get proper HDR in stuff like the PS4 which won't pick up 4K HDR without this being enabled. I can only wonder how often these sets have had consumers wondering why HDR wasn't working.

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post #44391 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
They had the media seeing them up. I'm sure someone knew what they were doing to ensure they were both HDR. Why are you being so negative Nancy. Have faith that the right steps were taken by those who were there. Mark Henninger was there..... He's a Samsung lover. We'll see what he says.

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I am just demonstrating exactly how this mistake "Could have been made". There certainly could be other explanations. However, based on Matt's pictures I still cannot accept that those pictures represent what those Samsung TVs can do in a true HDR mode.
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post #44392 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
It is quite simple actually.

I am sitting in front of that very scene from the Revenant in HDR and non HDR at the moment. Here is what the UHD HDR Blu ray and the regular Blu ray look like with my 2016 P75. There is no possible way he produced that color spectrum on "Calibrated" without an HDR signal. As Thomas stated a few posts ago the 2016 P-series clips to REC.709 if it is not receiving an HDR signal.

Now I fully admit that this just might be a simple mistake. I bet Matt just doesn't realize that if you put the Samsung in Movie mode it doesn't automatically enable full HDR. My understanding is that you have to also enable the "UHD Color" option as well in order to get full HDR. He probably just assumed that putting it in Movie mode was enough. I don't believe that is the case based on my experience with previous Samsung TVs.

I also want to stress that the pictures below demonstrate how important Wide Color Gamut is for HDR. With the 2016 M-series you were basically getting the bottom picture here. Not quite that bad but close. However, the 2017 M-series should actually get much closer to the top picture which would be great. As far as colors go there should be no difference between the 2016 P-series and the 2017 P-series. The real improvement here is in the 2017 M-series. That TV is now very appealing to the people who are stretching their budgets to even get to the P-series money. Now they can have a true HDR TV for M-series money. I have been asking for that the whole time.

From the RTINGS.com Review of the Samsung Q7:



http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sam...ings?uxtv=833f

HDR from P75



Non HDR from P75




Matt's comparison picture

When you view these images on SDR one is struck by how much better the HDR looks in SDR.
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post #44393 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:10 AM
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Yeah i dont get it.... putting software back onto the TV sounds awful. One of the reasons i lvoed this TV when i first saw it is it cleared up space on the TV by getting rid of the laggy/****ty software all Smart TVs use to browse apps. The tablet was so much better for fidning what you wanted quicker and if you had to type anything in, forget about it, the tablet is 10x faster for that.
Now you have the best of both worlds.

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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
They changed the other brand modes also. They said movie mode or calibrated etc. Read for Christ sakes....lol

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Setting the Samsung Q7 to Movie mode is not enough to enable HDR or to enable its true local dimming capabilities. I never said that they didn't put the Samsung in Movie mode. They did. However, they forgot to do the rest of the laundry list below in order to enable HDR with the Samsung TV.

Quote:
"For watching HDR content via an HDMI input it is important to set the 'HDMI UHD Color' on for each HDMI input that will receive the HDR content. This will allow the HDMI port to transmit the bandwidth necessary for HDR. If the 'HDMI UHD Color' is not turned on, some devices might not see the Q7F as being HDR compatible. For HDR content, it is also preferable to set the 'Backlight' to max, set 'Local Dimming' to 'High' and set the 'Color Space Settings' to 'Auto' or 'Native', since HDR does not use the same color space as SDR content."
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Well no setting except for Setting Local Dimming to 'High' which RTINGS.com says is not set there by default. Matt explicitly said that they simply just changed the TVs to their "Calibrated" or "Movie" modes and then left them alone. If he did what he said then those black bars could get a lot darker simply by turning up the Q7's local dimming.
local dimming doesn't change a panel's native contrast ratio.

if it's edge lit from the top and bottom, those black bars are gonna turn gray no matter what the settings are. this is just pure physics.
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post #44396 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Now you have the best of both worlds.

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Right!. Just because it's there, you don't have to use it. Vizio removed the biggest objection to the display at retail.


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post #44397 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I bet Matt just doesn't realize that if you put the Samsung in Movie mode it doesn't automatically enable full HDR. My understanding is that you have to also enable the "UHD Color" option as well in order to get full HDR. He probably just assumed that putting it in Movie mode was enough.
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Originally Posted by craiger8811 View Post
Not that I'm disagreeing with the comparison, but why in the world would Samsung make you "turn on" HDR? Did they make people turn on 1080P back in the early 2000's even if it was already receiving a 1080P signal? seems like a terrible UX.

My takeaway from the comparison was a little different, and just my opinion.

Yes, the Vizio on the left looked MUCH better. But Matt specifically said that it was out the of the box factory reset, then one mode change on each and then the comparison. One thing that demonstrates is how easy it is to get the Vizio performing the way it should (Calibrated/Calibrated Dark) vs another vendor (Cinema/Movie then other changes to get everything enabled and working).

Sure the Samsung could be made to look MUCH better I'm sure, but is the average person going to know to go do all of these extra things?
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post #44398 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
If it works, it will work because of the encoding bitrate. Published standard is HDMI 2.1. If somehow the HDR consortium enforces compliance with encoding standards, we'll have to see if Vizio has the pipe internally. Hope so.


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hdr10+ won't dramatically increase bitrates. It's just dynamic headers as opposed to a static one for the whole film. I'd guess hdr10+ would increase file size by the order of megabytes not gigabytes over vanilla HDR10. Total bitrate might go up 1mbps, the headers are relatively simplistic from a data storage perspective.

But still, if HDMI 1.4 is enough for dolby vision and current UHD blu ray bit rates - it'll be more than enough for HDR10+. The real difference wouldn't be in bandwidth or size but processing capabilities for the dynamic headers. Still though, Dolby Vision is much more intensive than HDR10+ will be, so if the TV can handle DV, it will be able to handle processing demands of HDR 10+.
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post #44399 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stikle View Post
My takeaway from the comparison was a little different, and just my opinion.



Yes, the Vizio on the left looked MUCH better. But Matt specifically said that it was out the of the box factory reset, then one mode change on each and then the comparison. One thing that demonstrates is how easy it is to get the Vizio performing the way it should (Calibrated/Calibrated Dark) vs another vendor (Cinema/Movie then other changes to get everything enabled and working).



Sure the Samsung could be made to look MUCH better I'm sure, but is the average person going to know to go do all of these extra things?


I think you're making a valid point here. it's consistent with the logic of putting the apps back on the display and providing physical remote control. It gets the average user operating the display quickly and easily.

Perhaps Vizio's only point really is.... look how great we look right out of the box compared to the competition.


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SONY Z9F LCD Master Series Owners Thread
Vizio 2016 P series FAQ, general info and Help
Sony Z9F 75, Vizio P75C1 UHD/HDR/DV, Pioneer Elite SC-95, Samsung UHD Bluray K8500, AppleTV 4K, CC Ultra
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post #44400 of 63937 Old 04-25-2017, 09:15 AM
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As someone who owns a 65KS8500 and P65, I can assure you, black levels of the KS8500 are fantastic, not as good as the Vizio, but very good, and not like that of that image. It is edge lit just like the Sammy set used in that comparison.
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