Official Vizio 2016/2017 P Series Owners ONLY Thread UHD/HDR/DV No Price Talk Please - Page 1482 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #44431 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Yea the way Netflix's codec works, it can lower the resolution and still be HDR.
When watching Man in the High Castle (Amazon Prime) on my SHIELD, the picture blinks and the status display shows HDR immediately even though the bitrate is still ramping up and looks like DVD (480p) rez. Eventually it lights up "1080p HDR" and then "UHD" (can't recall if the HDR stays) as it hits full power.

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post #44432 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:03 AM
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I'm loving the new update and remote. So much more convenient. I still enjoy using the android app to edit settings without getting in the way of the picture. I still would like to be able to edit the inputs menu. I only ever use 2 HDMI ports and I switch back and forth combined with using the cast feature. Also is there any update to being able to do 1440p 60hz on HDMI 5. I want to use this port for my HTPC but I never keep it there because it won't allow 1440p 60hz. I can do 4k 60hz, but all other resolutions are limited to 30hz except for 1080p and 720p. It kinda sucks. I'm using a gtx 1080 HDMI 2.0 for output by the way. I can do 1440p 60hz on every single HDMI input except 5, with UHD subsampling enabled and disabled. This may have been talked about on this forum before, but for the people who say just search the forum, know it's a nightmare with the almost 1500 full pages, I've tried.
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post #44433 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:03 AM
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As a fan and owner of a Vizio P65 I see it like this -

The P65 is what I have always imagined in my head for a TV (except I'd like a nicer form factor, this P65 is thick as hell). I have never been a fan of most TV's on screen Smart System such as Samsungs, Hisense's, etc... Ditching the OTA Tuner was smart as most people do get TV service either through a cable provider or some sort of IP related app through an OTT box such as a Roku or a video Game Console. That's just reality.

The biggest issue with a built in Smart OS's is the lack of support eventually. That's why the Smartcast Tablet was so great. The problem was the issues surrounding it right out of the box such as connectivity drops, hung apps, menu after menu to get to a setting. Those Q.O.L. issues frustrate customers who want "simple". Even as someone who works in the tech field I admit I found the tablet frustrating as hell some times. Great concept, but needs refinement basically.

WHAT I think Vizio should do and would give them a major advantage...is make a deal to get a Roku interface as the Smart OS on their Units. The Vizio P with a Roku Smart OS would be a killer. Again you're back to on screen apps but you get one of the most well like streaming services and you don't have to worry about supporting you're own smart OS flavor. Keeping the cast feature means those of us who cast can do so and those who prefer a more family friendly on screen smart menu would have one of the easiest.

Either way I love my P65, quirks and all and it is one of the best values out there
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post #44434 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mondan86 View Post
@Matt McRae ..

Can you add this serial number
The serial number is LTMATLAS0950031 - i am not sure why that number did not come over on the last post. i am not able to post a direct message.

Thx!
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post #44435 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:06 AM
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Ah, let me clarify something. I actually turned OFF HDR on the Samsung KS8500 for the XB1, because it looked like the images shown. Something with the XBox One S having issues with 4k Blu-Ray HDR on the Samsung back then. I wonder if that issue persists, hence why the images look this awful. I haven't checked in months, and only turn on HDR when I game on the XB1S as THAT isn't messed up.

Samsung's Amazon app's HDR and XB1S gaming looked just perfect.
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post #44436 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by GCM707 View Post
So with this in mind.. to do you own calibration you want to choose one of the "calibrated" modes, then begin making your changes? To keep HDR on I mean. If you did your settings from "standard" HDR would not work?
Yes for Calibrating it is best to use Calibrated and/or Calibrated Dark. You can't just Keep HDR on. You need content to engage it. HDR/WCG engages in Standard but the backlight isn't taken control of like Cal and Cal Dark. I haven't tested it further than that.

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post #44437 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Yea the way Netflix's codec works, it can lower the resolution and still be HDR.
Same thing you think for Amazon Prime Video content? I thought that woulda been 4K.
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post #44438 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:08 AM
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt McRae View Post
Incorrect... All TVs were running in Movie, Calibrated, Cinema... mode... And ALL had HDR enabled and running.
So are you saying that those pictures are representative of what the MU7000 and Q7 are capable of in HDR mode? I have seen both of those displays in a properly configured HDR mode and they look absolutely NOTHING like that.

Please confirm that you set all of the settings below to these values specifically for the Q7.

Quote:
For watching HDR content via an HDMI input it is important to set the 'HDMI UHD Color' on for each HDMI input that will receive the HDR content. This will allow the HDMI port to transmit the bandwidth necessary for HDR. If the 'HDMI UHD Color' is not turned on, some devices might not see the Q7F as being HDR compatible. For HDR content, it is also preferable to set the 'Backlight' to max, set 'Local Dimming' to 'High' and set the 'Color Space Settings' to 'Auto' or 'Native', since HDR does not use the same color space as SDR content.

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post #44439 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkBelig View Post
When watching Man in the High Castle (Amazon Prime) on my SHIELD, the picture blinks and the status display shows HDR immediately even though the bitrate is still ramping up and looks like DVD (480p) rez. Eventually it lights up "1080p HDR" and then "UHD" (can't recall if the HDR stays) as it hits full power.
So for DV and HDR10 Netflix can change resolution and still keep it engaged. Amazon can do the same with HDR10. Vudu Cannot for DV, its UHD/HDR or it drops to 1080p/HDX.

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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post #44440 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
The reason would only lie in HDR10+ requiring HDMI 2.1 vs 2.0a. Without having any technical basis for discussion, the initial assumption would be the combination of bitrates and 4k spec simply needs a bigger pipe than may exist for HDR10+. I think we all hope that HDR10+ is possible on the P series. I'm not holding my breath.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Let me comment on this... VIZIO is not announcing any future support for HLG or HDR10+. Why? First, we like to get a lot farther down the path of analysis and content souring before making such an announcement. We want to make sure we can deliver and that it is actually a step up for our consumers. Second, HLG is mostly used in Europe where we don't sell displays but we are working closely with some content sources here in US that may launch in the future to understand what future demand would look like... Third, for HDR10+ the standard is not yet finalized so it is a bit premature. Remember, HDR10+ is just a marketing name for the Dynamic HDR10 functionality. But there are several different versions being proposed into the spec (most make sense, one is a bit of a outlier). We want that to settle down before we market something that doesn't exist in the market or reality.

Interesting part is HDR10+ does NOT require HDMI 2.1 and our hardware is capable of dynamic meta data mapping because we supported DolbyVision from day 1.

There are no commitments or announcements being made at this time... but I assure you that we are looking at this space and I'll let you know what our plans are when things firm up.
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post #44441 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
So are you saying that those pictures are representative of what the MU7000 and Q7 are capable of in HDR mode? I have seen both of those displays in a properly configured HDR mode and they look absolutely NOTHING like that.

Please confirm that you set all of the settings below to these values.
They could look like that if the XBox1 was used as the 4k Blu Ray player, which yielded a similar blown out image for me, last time I checked. But that was months ago. I'll have to retest Revenant and Expendables 3 in HDR to see if the problem still happens.
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post #44442 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by turkish10 View Post
Same thing you think for Amazon Prime Video content? I thought that woulda been 4K.
You must've missed my reply to him; I said:

When watching Man in the High Castle (Amazon Prime) on my SHIELD, the picture blinks and the status display shows HDR immediately even though the bitrate is still ramping up and looks like DVD (480p) rez. Eventually it lights up "1080p HDR" and then "UHD" (can't recall if the HDR stays) as it hits full power.

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post #44443 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
So are you saying that those pictures are representative of what the MU7000 and Q7 are capable of in HDR mode? I have seen both of those displays in a properly configured HDR mode and they look absolutely NOTHING like that.

Please confirm that you set all of the settings below to these values.
I think it has been explained already. From a factory reset, they put the TVs in there respective movie modes and then engaged Full Color to ensure HDR/WCG is engaged. Nothing else was changed. The same 2 settings on every TV. That's it.
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My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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Originally Posted by Raven Crimson View Post
Ah, let me clarify something. I actually turned OFF HDR on the Samsung KS8500 for the XB1, because it looked like the images shown. Something with the XBox One S having issues with 4k Blu-Ray HDR on the Samsung back then. I wonder if that issue persists, hence why the images look this awful. I haven't checked in months, and only turn on HDR when I game on the XB1S as THAT isn't messed up.

Samsung's Amazon app's HDR and XB1S gaming looked just perfect.
There is absolutely no way that what Matt is showing represents what the Samsung displays are capable of. I completely agree that it is a settings issue and that is something Vizio should highlight because it is easy to display HDR properly on the Vizio displays. However, I will not accept that those represent what the Samsung TVs are capable of when properly configured for HDR content.
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post #44445 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I am not nit picking here. I am not even suggesting that the displays need to be calibrated. I am not even talking about local dimming either. However, what I am saying is "Don't show me an HDR signal on one display and a non-HDR signal on another display and expect me to believe that is a fair comparison". The colors on the Samsung TVs in his pictures are not representative of what those displays actually do when they are receiving an HDR signal. That is deceptive.

I would be saying the same thing no matter what manufacture did this. It isn't right to deceive.
Isn't it more of a demonstration of how low contrast levels and or blacks can wash out a image when observed in a light controlled environment.

So, a FALD display with 32, 64, or 126-128 zones would perform better in a setting absent of any light. In this case the images Matt has posted are accurate. Also consider what happens to HDR10 content and what it does with the backlight, it pushes light output to max. So, this suggest the images are accurate to what they are attempting to convey.

The setting shows that overall image contrast, is basically destroyed. Ask yourself if have witnessed the Q7 in a similar environment.

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post #44446 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt McRae View Post
Let me comment on this... VIZIO is not announcing any future support for HLG or HDR10+. Why? First, we like to get a lot farther down the path of analysis and content souring before making such an announcement. We want to make sure we can deliver and that it is actually a step up for our consumers. Second, HLG is mostly used in Europe where we don't sell displays but we are working closely with some content sources here in US that may launch in the future to understand what future demand would look like... Third, for HDR10+ the standard is not yet finalized so it is a bit premature. Remember, HDR10+ is just a marketing name for the Dynamic HDR10 functionality. But there are several different versions being proposed into the spec (most make sense, one is a bit of a outlier). We want that to settle down before we market something that doesn't exist in the market or reality.



Interesting part is HDR10+ does NOT require HDMI 2.1 and our hardware is capable of dynamic meta data mapping because we supported DolbyVision from day 1.



There are no commitments or announcements being made at this time... but I assure you that we are looking at this space and I'll let you know what our plans are when things firm up.


That clarifies some things I had read regarding the "standard" for HDR10+. Thanks for the thoughtful response.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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post #44447 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by DirkBelig View Post
When watching Man in the High Castle (Amazon Prime) on my SHIELD, the picture blinks and the status display shows HDR immediately even though the bitrate is still ramping up and looks like DVD (480p) rez. Eventually it lights up "1080p HDR" and then "UHD" (can't recall if the HDR stays) as it hits full power.
hmm... im gonna have to monitor this a little bit more. I'll try some more when i get home tonight.
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post #44448 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Raven Crimson View Post
We don't do much high quality viewing on the Sammy. Cable, some standard Blu-Ray. We have a couple of HDR movies, including the Revenant, but it's been months since we've touched that aspect of the set. Our bedroom TVs get much more use, which is my P65 in my room, and the VT60 in my mother's room. WEe even have some older Sharp 3D set in the back patio that gets more use than the Samsung. We just don't turn the KS8500 TV on much. It's more of a visitor's set, and even then they don't lounge in the living room much.

And yes, you have to go to Expert Settings and toggled HDMI UHD Color for each input.

So, you say on the Vizio P to set Backlight to 100 for HDR10? At least for gaming, it looks blown out that way to me. I leave it at 50...
No I don't always set the backlight to 100 for HDR gaming. Honestly, I have not found the ideal settings for HDR games yet. I prefer the ultra low input latency of HDMI 5 and the motion handling of 1080p @ 120 FPS. That is where I use backlight = 100 always. However, I also use clear action turned on as well. I turn GLL on also but I don't think that actually does anything with 1080p @ 120 FPS.
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post #44449 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt McRae View Post
Let me comment on this... VIZIO is not announcing any future support for HLG or HDR10+. Why? First, we like to get a lot farther down the path of analysis and content souring before making such an announcement. We want to make sure we can deliver and that it is actually a step up for our consumers. Second, HLG is mostly used in Europe where we don't sell displays but we are working closely with some content sources here in US that may launch in the future to understand what future demand would look like... Third, for HDR10+ the standard is not yet finalized so it is a bit premature. Remember, HDR10+ is just a marketing name for the Dynamic HDR10 functionality. But there are several different versions being proposed into the spec (most make sense, one is a bit of a outlier). We want that to settle down before we market something that doesn't exist in the market or reality.

Interesting part is HDR10+ does NOT require HDMI 2.1 and our hardware is capable of dynamic meta data mapping because we supported DolbyVision from day 1.

There are no commitments or announcements being made at this time... but I assure you that we are looking at this space and I'll let you know what our plans are when things firm up.
It is early for sure and we don't want another HDR10 promise for sure. Amazon is a HUGE source for content for many of the US. I think ignoring Amazon and not using them as a content partner is a mistake. The HDR10 they have is not very good so going HDR10+ is much needed for them to compete with DV. I really hope you include a built in Amazon app though and I am surprised you guys have not decide to use the Android TV base for your on display smartcast.

Can you comment on small window highlights? I asked earlier about having a setting that will enable and disable the portion of the local dimming algorithm that Dims the content to control blooming. While I love the dark room viewing, I think that setting would help daytime viewing tremendously.

Thanks.
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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
Isn't it more of a demonstration of how low contrast levels and or blacks can wash out a image when observed in a light controlled environment.

So, a FALD display with 32, 64, or 126-128 zones would perform better in a setting absent of any light. In this case the images Matt has posted are accurate. Also consider what happens to HDR10 content and what it does with the backlight, it pushes light output to max. So, this suggest the images are accurate to what they are attempting to convey.

The setting shows that overall image contrast, is basically destroyed. Ask yourself if have witnessed the Q7 in a similar environment.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

That type of image will still be very bright and vibrant.

But this is all for nothing, the TV in question is an MU7000, not Q7. Huge difference.
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Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
That clarifies some things I had read regarding the "standard" for HDR10+. Thanks for the thoughtful response.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Samsung reps are telling people that 2016 and 2017 Samsung will be updated to hdr10+ for streaming, but won't be hardware capable til 2018. So at the very least, hdr10+ is still capable via streaming by update.
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post #44452 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:28 AM
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Samsung reps are telling people that 2016 and 2017 Samsung will be updated to hdr10+ for streaming, but won't be hardware capable til 2018. So at the very least, hdr10+ is still capable via streaming by update.
I think The Vizio might be able to via HDMI because it can do DV. That's what I get out of Matt's comments.

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SmartCast Mobile and SmartCast TV

Now that things are public... I thought I would take some time between press meetings and give you some more background on the UX announcement.

First, you will continue to see major improvements and additions to the SmartCast app for iOS and Android. We are now calling that app SmartCast Mobile. Lots of new features, a new remote control layout, a way to navigate onscreen menus, and more content are all coming over the next couple of months. For many, including myself, this will still be the primary way to interact with our SmartCast displays because of the ease of use, ability to navigate while watching content on screen, touch navigation, and ability to use the iOS/Android native apps for services when I choose.

Second, we announce SmartCast TV which is the new UX on the TV screen. However, it would be wrong to think we are porting a bunch of native apps to the screen and doing an about-face on Cast. SmartCast TV is just SmartCast Mobile built for the 10ft experience. Meaning the UX is actually driven from the cloud and the same backend servers as SmartCast mobile. There is no native app running... which means we can add features, improve design, add content, etc without having to do an app or firmware update. Also, the apps "running" in the TV are actually cloud based HTML5 interfaces that also can be updated without downloads or firmware updates.

Whats more... when you kick off a Crackle stream for example from the 10ft UX on the TV... it actually sends a Cast stream request to itself. Meaning the playback is Cast underneath which means it remains controllable from SmartCast Mobile apps, native apps, and even Google Home (even though you selected that stream from the TV UX). This is a completely unified Cast infrastructure and architecture with a new front end running on the TV that you can navigate via IR (or the SmartCast Mobile app).

I won't go into the major advantages this provides not only for app/service providers but the ecosystem in general. Suffice it to say this is a really different approach to enabling multi-screen navigation across services and "apps". So this is not a return to traditional ported apps to proprietary TV OS platforms... it is the extension of SmartCast (and all of the benefits associated with it) to the 10ft user experience.

The press isn't picking up on all of this... and it may take a while since we won't send them firmware to test until it is final form. The above may confuse some here as well. But basically we have the best of both worlds running in a unified user experience that can be updated and refined over time without custom code or major firmware deployments. It also allows us to synchronize the UX across Mobile and TV - you have seen us do this with sidebar settings already.
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post #44454 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:35 AM
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I think The Vizio might be able to via HDMI because it can do DV. That's what I get out of Matt's comments.
It's still possible, but at the very least it's capable over streaming. Samsung though is being cautious about hardware promises, for reasons Matt has already stated.
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post #44455 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Official Vizio 2016/2017 P Series Owners Thread UHD/HDR/DV No Price Talk Please

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It is early for sure and we don't want another HDR10 promise for sure. Amazon is a HUGE source for content for many of the US. I think ignoring Amazon and not using them as a content partner is a mistake. The HDR10 they have is not very good so going HDR10+ is much needed for them to compete with DV. I really hope you include a built in Amazon app though and I am surprised you guys have not decide to use the Android TV base for your on display smartcast.



Can you comment on small window highlights? I asked earlier about having a setting that will enable and disable the portion of the local dimming algorithm that Dims the content to control blooming. While I love the dark room viewing, I think that setting would help daytime viewing tremendously.



Thanks.


I'm sure you've seen the chart @Matt McRae , where they compare window size/NITS between various brands. Vizio has taken the rap for being the "worst" display for HDR because of the NITS produced in small windows. I know in a theatrical setting the performance of this display in DV is outstanding so I certainly don't agree with that but it is situational. The point many have made over time is that a shift in the contrast range would be beneficial for higher ambient viewing but would necessitate higher small window NITS than you currently produce. Is anything being tested to produce higher brightness with this P series which could be beneficial for brighter rooms?

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Vizio 2016 P series FAQ, general info and Help
Sony Z9F 75, Vizio P75C1 UHD/HDR/DV, Pioneer Elite SC-95, Samsung UHD Bluray K8500, AppleTV 4K, CC Ultra

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post #44456 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt McRae View Post

Second, we announce SmartCast TV which is the new UX on the TV screen. However, it would be wrong to think we are porting a bunch of native apps to the screen and doing an about-face on Cast. SmartCast TV is just SmartCast Mobile built for the 10ft experience. Meaning the UX is actually driven from the cloud and the same backend servers as SmartCast mobile. There is no native app running... which means we can add features, improve design, add content, etc without having to do an app or firmware update. Also, the apps "running" in the TV are actually cloud based HTML5 interfaces that also can be updated without downloads or firmware updates.


The press isn't picking up on all of this... and it may take a while since we won't send them firmware to test until it is final form. The above may confuse some here as well. But basically we have the best of both worlds running in a unified user experience that can be updated and refined over time without custom code or major firmware deployments. It also allows us to synchronize the UX across Mobile and TV - you have seen us do this with sidebar settings already.
So the apps will update from where? Is it connected somehow to Googleplay? Will those app updates be controlled by the Smartcast app?...meaning we can go in thru the app and check for updates etc?

Otherwise I get exactly what you are saying. It also sounds like there is no chance for integrated Amazon Video since you are still essentially CASTING everything?
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post #44457 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt McRae View Post
Now that things are public... I thought I would take some time between press meetings and give you some more background on the UX announcement.

Second, we announce SmartCast TV which is the new UX on the TV screen. However, it would be wrong to think we are porting a bunch of native apps to the screen and doing an about-face on Cast. SmartCast TV is just SmartCast Mobile built for the 10ft experience. Meaning the UX is actually driven from the cloud and the same backend servers as SmartCast mobile. There is no native app running... which means we can add features, improve design, add content, etc without having to do an app or firmware update. Also, the apps "running" in the TV are actually cloud based HTML5 interfaces that also can be updated without downloads or firmware updates.
This is such a great way to get around keeping TV apps updated on physical hardware! I'd love to help test when those firmwares are released to beta testers. In the meantime, I'd love to test current beta firmwares. Can I be added to the list of beta testers? If so, here's my SN - 03LTMATLBT50088.

Thanks!
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post #44458 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:47 AM
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So the apps will update from where? Is it connected somehow to Googleplay? Will those app updates be controlled by the Smartcast app?...meaning we can go in thru the app and check for updates etc?

Otherwise I get exactly what you are saying. It also sounds like there is no chance for integrated Amazon Video since you are still essentially CASTING everything?
When Hulu wants to update their app they make a change on their server. Immediately all SmartCast displays will be updated since an "app launch" is basically just loading it from their server. They can update their app as often as they wish and you will always have the latest without having to download code to your display.

There will be a couple of exceptions to this that we can talk more about when they are announced :-)
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post #44459 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt McRae View Post
When Hulu wants to update their app they make a change on their server. Immediately all SmartCast displays will be updated since an "app launch" is basically just loading it from their server. They can update their app as often as they wish and you will always have the latest without having to download code to your display.

There will be a couple of exceptions to this that we can talk more about when they are announced :-)
So you'll be connected directly to them in lieu of going thru an app store. Essentially you will have you own small app store just for Smartcast displays that will be working behind the scenes.

I'm now intrigued about the exceptions and look forward to that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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post #44460 of 63591 Old 04-25-2017, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt McRae View Post
When Hulu wants to update their app they make a change on their server. Immediately all SmartCast displays will be updated since an "app launch" is basically just loading it from their server. They can update their app as often as they wish and you will always have the latest without having to download code to your display.

There will be a couple of exceptions to this that we can talk more about when they are announced :-)
So Vizio is the owner of the "book of apps" that link back to each content provider. Do we get to choose which apps we see, or do we have to look at the entire book? I mean, is it going to be customizable?

I don't suppose you want to give us a sneak peek at what to expect? We promise not to share it outside this tiny community! :-)

- Jon
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