Official Vizio 2016/2017 P Series Owners ONLY Thread UHD/HDR/DV No Price Talk Please - Page 1667 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #49981 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I really wish RTINGS.com would go back and test the Vizio P-series for contrast ratio with Local dimming turned on. They have tested it for virtually all of the other recent TVs but not the P-series. Since the P-series has excellent local dimming it could benefit the most from being tested with local dimming turned on.
I get 68,000 COntrast Ratio with dimming on.
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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #49982 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Turning Xtreme Black Engine Pro(Local Dimming) off effects more than just the contrast ratio. It effects the colors. It effects uniformity. This display was designed to be used with Local dimming turned on it almost all cases. Use it that way. It will be better.
This is why I calibrate with it on my P65, but not all displays with local dimming are that way. I calibrated a few other TV's that have a local dimming and turning it off and back on didn't effect the calibration. Until the "by eye" calibrators throw a meter on their display, they remain oblivious and will never know how much of a difference it really is.

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post #49983 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Yes definitely a great example of high quality footage. I got Directv 4k/UHD this weekend. It isn't HDR but quite honestly it was really good UHD SDR. Some of the concert footage on there was very good. I just wish we could get 1080p @ 60 FPS feeds from Directv for all sports. It would be sooooo much better than the over compressed 720p that we get for some of the sports right now(FOX, ESPN, ABC... ETC).
That resolution is from the source. I have OTA and the Major Networks are all 720p and 1080i. I've been reading some things about 4k OTA coming in the next couple years.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #49984 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:16 AM
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Can someone do a quick test for me, season one first episode of Goliath on amazon, watch the opening scene within the first 3 or 4 minutes where the camera pans over a suburb in LA, on my set, the judder (is that whats its called?) anyway the judder is absolutely terrible, it slows donw to like 5 frames per second. Could someone test and report what you see please.

My set up, amazon tv 4k running through yamaha rxa850 to P65-c1.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
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post #49985 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
This is why I calibrate with it on my P65, but not all displays with local dimming are that way. I calibrated a few other TV's that have a local dimming and turning it off and back on didn't effect the calibration. Until the "by eye" calibrators throw a meter on their display, they remain oblivious and will never know how much of a difference it really is.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
It's EXTREME on an FALD display. Major blue push from 0-30% grayscale with it off.
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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+

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post #49986 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XlKlonelx View Post
Has anyone had issues with getting a replacement directly from Vizio? They're sending me a refurbished P65-C1b, "b" for refurb, and I hope I don't inherit someone else's problems. Only thing I can do is search the SN and see if it pops up, unless refurbs get new SNs.

I will say I had a great experience with customer service. I wonder if I can do a quick test before I accept it.
According to the email instructions I received from them (I am waiting for my replacement to arrive) they SPECIFICALLY STATED to check it over for damage and test it before sending away the delivery guys.
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post #49987 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
That resolution is from the source. I have OTA and the Major Networks are all 720p and 1080i. I've been reading some things about 4k OTA coming in the next couple years.
Yes absolutely. The source is the major part of the issue. However, if the source just changed to 1080p @ 60 FPS I would be satisfied. It doesn't have to be 4K/UHD to actually look good. 1080p can look great if it is compressed properly.
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post #49988 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nohcho View Post
Can someone do a quick test for me, season one first episode of Goliath on amazon, watch the opening scene within the first 3 or 4 minutes where the camera pans over a suburb in LA, on my set, the judder (is that whats its called?) anyway the judder is absolutely terrible, it slows donw to like 5 frames per second. Could someone test and report what you see please.

My set up, amazon tv 4k running through yamaha rxa850 to P65-c1.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
I saw that on DirectvNow watching VOD of Game of Thrones. Turn on GLL to disable all motion properties.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #49989 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
It's extreme on an FALD display. Major blue push from 0-30% grayscale with it off.
This point cannot be stressed enough. The Blue Push is even noticeable with the naked eye.
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post #49990 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I saw that on DirectvNow watching VOD of Game of Thrones. Turn on GLL to disable all motion properties.
I wish we could turn on GLL based on the source frame rate. For example 24 FPS content the cadence is critical. However, for 60 FPS it is not as important in my opinion. I like to use motion interpolation with 60 FPS content but never with 24 FPS content.
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post #49991 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sbuchanan813 View Post
Hey everyone. Just looking for some guidance I am trying to get a replacement p75 I have the slightest yet most annoying split screen thing happening. The right side is just a tiny shade darker than the left. Only noticeable at certain times so it's very hard to get a picture they are requesting. Is there any pointers for this? It's so annoying .


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Yes, don't try to "catch" a picture. Do a video with your phone or whatever then when you "catch" it play back the video and photograph the problem. That is what I had to do with my "window screen" issue and it was the only way I could catch it in action.
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post #49992 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
This point cannot be stressed enough. The Blue Push is even noticeable with the naked eye.
Exactly.... I'll go back and make Extreme all caps and bolded. lol
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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #49993 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MisterEd View Post
According to the email instructions I received from them (I am waiting for my replacement to arrive) they SPECIFICALLY STATED to check it over for damage and test it before sending away the delivery guys.
Remember to test every source you will use. Different sources have different reactions.
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post #49994 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:28 AM
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I vote for a special "sub-forum" for all you folks beta testing new firmware or at the very least type BETA on the first line of your messages. Gets kind of confusing sometimes which firmware is being discussed.
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post #49995 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:29 AM
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Question

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Originally Posted by nohcho View Post
Can someone do a quick test for me, season one first episode of Goliath on amazon, watch the opening scene within the first 3 or 4 minutes where the camera pans over a suburb in LA, on my set, the judder (is that whats its called?) anyway the judder is absolutely terrible, it slows donw to like 5 frames per second. Could someone test and report what you see please.

My set up, amazon tv 4k running through yamaha rxa850 to P65-c1.

Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
Did Matt ever say exactly what GLL turns off?
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post #49996 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MisterEd View Post
I vote for a special "sub-forum" for all you folks beta testing new firmware or at the very least type BETA on the first line of your messages. Gets kind of confusing sometimes which firmware is being discussed.
The motion issues have been there for some time. Last Public release shares the same micro studder issues. Otherwise the rest today was just general speak.

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #49997 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I get 68,000 COntrast Ratio with dimming on.
Do you test that the same way RTINGS.com does?
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post #49998 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I really wish RTINGS.com would go back and test the Vizio P-series for contrast ratio with Local dimming turned on. They have tested it for virtually all of the other recent TVs but not the P-series. Since the P-series has excellent local dimming it could benefit the most from being tested with local dimming turned on.
They are actually currently testing the 2017 P Series. They will have a FALD On measurement for that one. I recommended that they start doing that and they said it was pointless at first but it's nice to see them doing that now. They started doing it after they got rid of their 2016 P Series.

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post #49999 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:35 AM
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post #50000 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:35 AM
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Red face

I figured I would try for the 50,000 post with something that has bugged me for a very long time. That is upscaling and the misrepresentation of its benefits. RTINGS.com has claimed that every single Vizio TV has substandard upscaling for both 480p and 720p.

The rating for this one single category(upscaling) effects pretty much all of the other scores for the TVs rated on RTINGs.com. This is because most of the top level categories he rates the TVs based on have 480p and 720p upscaling as a significant component. This in effect compounds the weighting of upscaling because it is used in multiple categories.

For instance his “TV shows” category gives 720p and 480p a 12% and 8% weighting respectively. My DIRECTV device doesn’t even offer 480p as an option for output. It is literally not even capable of outputting 480p. This isn’t an old device either. It is the new 4K mini client.

It makes no sense to rate a display for TV shows or sports based on how well it does with 480p. Virtually nothing is broadcast in 480p anymore.

On top of that I performed an experiment to see how my P75 would react to outputting the TV shows I watch in a non-native format. I wanted to see if I took a true 4K show from DIRECTV and output it at 720p instead to my P75 would you be able to tell the difference?

DIRECTV now has 4K/UHD channels. There are only 3 of them but they are true UHD without HDR headers. First, I setup the DIRECTV genie mini devices to output at UHD resolution.

This is what that looks like. You can see in the top of the screen that my P75 is seeing 2160p native from the Genie mini.



Next, I eliminated 1080i, 1080p, and 4K from the output choices leaving only 720p as an output option. Here is what that looks like in 720p. Note that the TV is now showing it is receiving a downscaled 720p signal from the original 4k/UHD sourced material.



The interesting thing is that you honestly can’t see a difference in the resolution at all. They are identical. The reason for this is that even the highest end professional cameras really struggle to resolve much past 1400 lines of detail in the video they capture. Then on top of that compression can further degrade the true resolvable resolution down to as low as 800 lines of true resolution.

Now the curious thing is actually the colors. It is striking how different the colors look between 720p and 4k/UHD even though this is not WCG HDR content. This is still in the REC.709 domain even for the 4K sourced material.

So all of this talk about don’t buy a Vizio TV for regular TV content is just another “alternative fact”. There literally is no difference detail wise at all. You may imagine that there is but it is easily proven that there isn’t a difference for regular TV content.

Honestly, it is so wrong that this fallacy has been allowed to propagate for so long. DIRECTV looks just as good on the Vizio TVs I have had as it did on the Samsung JS850 I once had. I don’t understand why Vizio hasn’t addressed this with RTINGs.com yet.

Honestly, this P75 is truly a fantastic display. It doesn’t offer the absolute best picture quality(OLED wins there) but for the price the picture quality, features, and processing is SOOOO much better than it should be.

Everyone knows I had issues with several P75 TVs failing for a variety of reasons. However, in the end Vizio made it right. They got me a P75 that I am completely satisfied with(Knock on Wood). The P75 I have now just flat out works.

I have posted for a while because quite honestly I have no complaints about my P75 at the moment. None at all. I just simply enjoy watching it.

I hope in the future the Vizio will get more credit for the product they produce. It is outstanding but it is rare that someone outside of this thread describes it that way.
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post #50001 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Do you test that the same way RTINGS.com does?
CalMAN tells me the ratio. I did not test using the ANSI checkerboard pattern. I will next time I put the meter on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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post #50002 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Do you test that the same way RTINGS.com does?
I got around the same results but that was with 18% APL. I will have to check the differences also with an ANSI Checkerboard. I would hope it is way better considering they keep the blacks darker and sacrifice light output. Deeper blacks affect the contrast ratio more than brighter whites.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
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post #50003 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I win 3









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My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
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post #50004 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by beardontwalk123 View Post
I got around the same results but that was with 18% APL. I will have to check the differences also with an ANSI Checkerboard. I would hope it is way better considering they keep the blacks darker and sacrifice light output. Deeper blacks affect the contrast ratio more than brighter whites.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Well, the lighting in the room effects it as well. So the checkerboard will probably be lower. When it was still daylight out my Contrast Ration was lowered to 36,000 or so. Black level went from 0.0015 to 0.002.
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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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post #50005 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:44 AM
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Yes I did a short post because the long post I wanted for that slot would take too long for me to post it through my current internet connection. I admit it.
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post #50006 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I figured I would try for the 50,000 post with something that has bugged me for a very long time. That is upscaling and the misrepresentation of its benefits. RTINGS.com has claimed that every single Vizio TV has substandard upscaling for both 480p and 720p.

The rating for this one single category(upscaling) effects pretty much all of the other scores for the TVs rated on RTINGs.com. This is because most of the top level categories he rates the TVs based on have 480p and 720p upscaling as a significant component. This in effect compounds the weighting of upscaling because it is used in multiple categories.

For instance his “TV shows” category gives 720p and 480p a 12% and 8% weighting respectively. My DIRECTV device doesn’t even offer 480p as an option for output. It is literally not even capable of outputting 480p. This isn’t an old device either. It is the new 4K mini client.

It makes no sense to rate a display for TV shows or sports based on how well it does with 480p. Virtually nothing is broadcast in 480p anymore.

On top of that I performed an experiment to see how my P75 would react to outputting the TV shows I watch in a non-native format. I wanted to see if I took a true 4K show from DIRECTV and output it at 720p instead to my P75 would you be able to tell the difference?

DIRECTV now has 4K/UHD channels. There are only 3 of them but they are true UHD without HDR headers. First, I setup the DIRECTV genie mini devices to output at UHD resolution.


This is what that looks like. You can see in the top of the screen that my P75 is seeing 2160p native from the Genie mini.



Next, I eliminated 1080i, 1080p, and 4K from the output choices leaving only 720p as an output option. Here is what that looks like in 720p. Note that the TV is now showing it is receiving a downscaled 720p signal from the original 4k/UHD sourced material.



The interesting thing is that you honestly can’t see a difference in the resolution at all. They are identical. The reason for this is that even the highest end professional cameras really struggle to resolve much past 1400 lines of detail in the video they capture. Then on top of that compression can further degrade the true resolvable resolution down to as low as 800 lines of true resolution.

Now the curious thing is actually the colors. It is striking how different the colors look between 720p and 4k/UHD even though this is not WCG HDR content. This is still in the REC.709 domain even for the 4K sourced material.

So all of this talk about don’t buy a Vizio TV for regular TV content is just another “alternative fact”. There literally is no difference detail wise at all. You may imagine that there is but it is easily proven that there isn’t a difference for regular TV content.

Honestly, it is so wrong that this fallacy has been allowed to propagate for so long. DIRECTV looks just as good on the Vizio TVs I have had as it did on the Samsung JS850 I once had. I don’t understand why Vizio hasn’t addressed this with RTINGs.com yet.

Honestly, this P75 is truly a fantastic display. It doesn’t offer the absolute best picture quality(OLED wins there) but for the price the picture quality, features, and processing is SOOOO much better than it should be.

Everyone knows I had issues with several P75 TVs failing for a variety of reasons. However, in the end Vizio made it right. They got me a P75 that I am completely satisfied with(Knock on Wood). The P75 I have now just flat out works.

I have posted for a while because quite honestly I have no complaints about my P75 at the moment. None at all. I just simply enjoy watching it.

I hope in the future the Vizio will get more credit for the product they produce. It is outstanding but it is rare that someone outside of this thread describes it that way.
I agree, and i think the better color you see is because the resolution is better. It's clearer so the colors show more..... I also think they improved the upscaling some with the latest beta.

EDIT: Looks like from the images you posted that its best for you to leave your output at 720p...lol
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+

Last edited by shoman94; 07-24-2017 at 09:53 AM.
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post #50007 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 09:51 AM
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That picture looks amazing!
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post #50008 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 10:08 AM
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
I agree, and i think the better color you see is because the resolution is better. It's clearer so the colors show more..... I also think they improved the upscaling some with the latest beta.
The colors could simply be from how the Directv device downscales from 4K to 720p. All of the compression might be in the colors as opposed to in the actual resolution.

For example if a block of 16 pixels has 16 separate colors rendered then you could easily represent those 16 colors as 1 color. That would save a lot of space and it may not be noticeable if those colors are close in absolute value. However, it may not effect the perception of detail much especially if those colors are imperceptibly close.

I did go back after I created that first post and try it with a scene that had a really close up shot of the subject. That scene did start to show noticeable blurring of detail. However, from a normal sitting distance even that loss of detail was imperceptible.







I think the only time there can be an issue in scaling is with 480p. That resolution is not fully qualified. For example the true 16:9 480p resolution should be 853.3333x480. We all know that a fraction of a pixel is not possible. However, should we then choose 854 or 853 or some other resolution to represent 480p?

On top of that DVDs use 720x480 to represent 480p. That can definitely introduce scaling issues.

Now some people will argue that each TV is being fed the same resolution in RTINGS.com’s tests so it shouldn’t matter which resolution they choose to represent 480p. Except for it does appear to make a difference depending on which TV you use.

Some TVs may be designed to scale 720x480(480p) properly because let’s face it DVDs are really the only source left for true 480p. However, if the tests by RTINGS.com are done with 854x480 then that would explain why they are seeing sub par results with the Vizio displays and what they are calling 480p.

I really think RTINGs.com is doing their test wrong for upscaling. I believe they use a high resolution image for it and then scale it down to the resolution they want and output it from a computer. That is not a real world test that anyone would actually ever use.

Instead they should be testing 480p and 480i upscaling with a DVD player that has been proven to output 480p and 480i unaltered. They should choose one high quality 24 FPS Progressive DVD and then one lower quality “concert” or “Sports” DVD sourced from 480i/60 material. Test and report the results for both of those scenarios since those are really the only uses for 480p and 480i now.

Then for 720p they should just use an over the air broadcast paused on a specific frame and also some streaming content paused on a specific frame. Those are the only real world uses for 720p at the moment.

Finally for 1080i there is only one real world test. That test is with a 1080i broadcast channel. However, you can’t pause 1080i like you can with progressive video. Pausing interlaced material will almost always introduce artifacts. Instead with 1080i you need to take the picture of the screen while the video is playing. You will have to try it a few times to make sure you get the same frame for each display.

I think if they did that they would give a much better representation of how upscaling effects certain content.
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post #50009 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 10:59 AM
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I have a split screen issue so infrequent its not worth contacting Vizio about, but I am curious if ANYone else sees it.

I posted several weeks ago that while watching Neon Demon on blu-ray, during a scene with strobe lights, the screen would display severe fraction-of-a-second splits, looking like the backlight processing was having trouble staying synced with such rapid changes of bright white on black backgrounds (discernible line down the center of the image).

Last night watching La La Land on UHD bluray, saw the same thing when Gosling's character is playing on stage in a band, again due to strobing stage lighting in the film.

Other than this, I remember seeing this artifact once about 13-14 months ago can't remember what film, but do remember it was something with a rapid flash (lightning?).

So does anyone else ever see this phenomenon on otherwise well performing P series?
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post #50010 of 64273 Old 07-24-2017, 11:12 AM
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Want to check with this forum on the new Beta FW USB playing option, how to change the audio option on the video file that is playing, i have three audio source in the same video file but the USB internal player picks only the first audio and there is no way in the interface to toggle between audio, appreciate if someone can please advise

Thanks
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