Official Vizio 2016/2017 P Series Owners ONLY Thread UHD/HDR/DV No Price Talk Please - Page 1995 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #59821 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Atharun18999 View Post
From what I see of the new 2018 P series, it is basically the 2016/17 model with a new aesthetic which is still not bad at all. If you look at the rtings.com (not perfect but a very good source for info) the Vizio P has been a pound for pound and value/cost champ since the 2016 year model. In fact the specs have kind of become the standard for most models. It scores on par with most Samsungs and non OLED LGs at a Significantly smaller cost with the largest difference typically being Smart OS platform and form factor.

It looks like the 2018 reduces the FALD zones slightly down to 120 for the 65 inch but that is not the biggest thing as the implementation can have just as large an impact as total zones. If anything, and as an owner of the 2016/17 P-65, I think that Vizio needs a better processor in their units as to me that had a huge impact on performance. A lot of people like to blame the slowness of the smartcast (on tv no the tablet) on the smartcast system itself but I feel like the slowness between selecting menu items and what not comes down to the processor. Same with the upscaling engine. If Vizio has improved on those then the Base P for 2018 is still a great unit on par with the big names and the PQ is seemingly that on steroids. Either way, I am still confident that those of us with the 2016/17 model still have great TVs none the less and I imagine they will continue to be supported with firmware updates to improve things as the 2018 is more of a form factor change rather than a new unit (at least on the Base P series)
Can we stop all the 2018 talk and move it to the 2018 thread? For someone with a new P65-E1 I'm looking for guidance and don't feel like sifting thru 2018 P model discussion...
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post #59822 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 07:32 AM
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The news of the 2018 Vizio P and PQ are exciting, but off topic for this thread. I'd recommend taking that conversation to either of these two threads:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...vizio-tvs.html

Or Mark's thread covering today's press event: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...smart-tvs.html
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post #59823 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 07:45 AM
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Can we stop all the 2018 talk and move it to the 2018 thread? For someone with a new P65-E1 I'm looking for guidance and don't feel like sifting thru 2018 P model discussion...
My comments on the 2018 were also in reference to my experience as an owner of the 2017 and thus relevant IMO as I am voicing my opinion on the processing of the 2017... Aslo, again due to the 2018, CNET is reporting those of us who own the 2016/17 model will continue to get the firmware updates (including Youtube TV) as they will be the same across all 3 year models.

https://www.cnet.com/news/vizio-2018...ming-for-less/

"Another weakness last year was Vizio's SmartCast suite of smart TV extras, but Vizio again claims some improvements. You still have to use your phone to Cast most apps to the TV, but on-screen options at least include a new universal search. The TVs also work with both Alexa and Google Assistant, the latter allowing users to stream content to the TV with voice controls. Vizio says an app for YouTube TV is coming soon, along with another, unnamed new streaming service aimed at cord cutters. We'll provide more details when we have them.

Vizio says owners of 2016 and 2017 SmartCast TVs will get the 2018 software soon via a free upgrade, a nice perk that's uncommon in the TV industry (with the notable exception of Roku TVs, which also enjoy constant updates)."

I am very curious about how much QA testing they have done with the latest firmware.
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post #59824 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Atharun18999 View Post
My comments on the 2018 were also in reference to my experience as an owner of the 2017 and thus relevant IMO as I am voicing my opinion on the processing of the 2017... Aslo, again due to the 2018, CNET is reporting those of us who own the 2016/17 model will continue to get the firmware updates (including Youtube TV) as they will be the same across all 3 year models.

https://www.cnet.com/news/vizio-2018...ming-for-less/

"Another weakness last year was Vizio's SmartCast suite of smart TV extras, but Vizio again claims some improvements. You still have to use your phone to Cast most apps to the TV, but on-screen options at least include a new universal search. The TVs also work with both Alexa and Google Assistant, the latter allowing users to stream content to the TV with voice controls. Vizio says an app for YouTube TV is coming soon, along with another, unnamed new streaming service aimed at cord cutters. We'll provide more details when we have them.

Vizio says owners of 2016 and 2017 SmartCast TVs will get the 2018 software soon via a free upgrade, a nice perk that's uncommon in the TV industry (with the notable exception of Roku TVs, which also enjoy constant updates)."

I am very curious about how much QA testing they have done with the latest firmware.
Agreed! Super excited to see that a new firmware update will be coming out to those of us who own 2016 or 2017 models (even M-series). Hopefully, the new firmware update includes hdr certification for Amazon for 2016 tvs and a sling tv shortcut. If so, I can get rid of these rokus (assuming it's properly tested before rollout).

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post #59825 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Atharun18999 View Post
My comments on the 2018 were also in reference to my experience as an owner of the 2017 and thus relevant IMO as I am voicing my opinion on the processing of the 2017... Aslo, again due to the 2018, CNET is reporting those of us who own the 2016/17 model will continue to get the firmware updates (including Youtube TV) as they will be the same across all 3 year models.

https://www.cnet.com/news/vizio-2018...ming-for-less/

"Another weakness last year was Vizio's SmartCast suite of smart TV extras, but Vizio again claims some improvements. You still have to use your phone to Cast most apps to the TV, but on-screen options at least include a new universal search. The TVs also work with both Alexa and Google Assistant, the latter allowing users to stream content to the TV with voice controls. Vizio says an app for YouTube TV is coming soon, along with another, unnamed new streaming service aimed at cord cutters. We'll provide more details when we have them.

Vizio says owners of 2016 and 2017 SmartCast TVs will get the 2018 software soon via a free upgrade, a nice perk that's uncommon in the TV industry (with the notable exception of Roku TVs, which also enjoy constant updates)."

I am very curious about how much QA testing they have done with the latest firmware.
So we're getting DirectvNow.

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post #59826 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by David Biagas View Post
Agreed! Super excited to see that a new firmware update will be coming out to those of us who own 2016 or 2017 models (even M-series). Hopefully, the new firmware update includes hdr certification for Amazon for 2016 tvs and a sling tv shortcut. If so, I can get rid of these rokus (assuming it's properly tested before rollout).
Check Amazon.

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post #59827 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 08:05 AM
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So we're getting DirectvNow.

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If it's really aimed at cord cutters, it should be sling OR several of the most popular streaming services. But we all know it's going to come down to $$. I wonder who the highest bidder will be.

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post #59828 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 08:09 AM
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Yah it's the new reference series. I expect pricing to be out of reach for most consumers.
They already announced via press release that the MSRP for the 65" PQ is $2199.
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post #59829 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 08:22 AM
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Where are you seeing 1300?
It's $1300 for the 65" P, $2199 for the 65" PQ, which is also the selling price for the Sony 65" 900F, a set inline with the P. Let's remember that Rtings.com has the Sony F series as the mid-tier recommendation at the moment, so view today's announcement in that context.

As I shared, if Vizio can deliver a picture inline with the respective specs with the PQ, as we already have a pretty good idea what the updated 2018 P will deliver, they are well-positioned to compete in the mid-tier space with a dual P strategy.
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post #59830 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 08:27 AM
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I have a PS4 Pro also. Sorry I missed the issue you were having. What is the fix fixing? Thanks!
The latest firmware broke 4K HDR for many of us using a receiver. The fix stopped working for me last night though. Need to try it again.
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post #59831 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 08:29 AM
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What the heck happened to the youtube tv app?
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No one knows the price of the quantum p yet. It's like.the new reference with less zones. Why have they not upgraded VP9 to VP9-2 so we can watch YouTube HDR?
Google is already transitioning away from VP9 to AV1, the new format that has Apple and Netflix onboard, so I'm pretty sure YouTube HDR will be available via an update before the end of 2018. Not sure how it will work for present sets which do not have a VP9 HW decoder, since AV1 builds on some, but not all, of VP9: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV1
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post #59832 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 09:31 AM
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I wonder why they don't have a 55 inch and 75 inch model of the P Quantum? Maybe they don't think it's going to sell like how the reference model flopped?

Last edited by O'neil026; 04-10-2018 at 09:39 AM.
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post #59833 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 09:56 AM
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I wonder why they don't have a 55 inch and 75 inch model of the P Quantum? Maybe they don't think it's going to sell like how the reference model flopped?
The PQ pricing is about the same as the P series was on introduction in 2016 so it is not as expensive as the old R series. People didn't mind original P series pricing. 65 is still the sweet spot in terms of price and size for most people. I'd think a larger size will follow once Vizio better understands quantum dot manufacturing.
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post #59834 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 10:09 AM
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If it worked, and even then if it was playable with the AWFUL input lag. I wish I never bought this TV.
Sorry you're not happy with it. That said, I always find it odd when people refer to "awful input lag" when it comes to gaming. I think much of this is psychological. We're talking about 3 frames of input lag on the P-series (52ms measured / 16.6ms = 3.13 frames) for 60fps games. That's 1/20th of a second. The highest measured reaction time of humans = 100ms. The average reaction time of humans = 200ms. Tick rate for most online games = 49.8ms (3 frames or 1/20th of a second). Hit detection/prediction in most online shooters ranges from 100-200ms, depending on the game. All of those things interacting means that within about 100ms, you just aren't going to FEEL a difference (or any competitive advantage). People have this notion that they will based on the numbers... and even blame input lag when playing games sometimes, but the math shows that it just isn't as crucial as most tend to think.

Don't get me wrong... The lower, the better. But calling 3 frames "awful" is a bit of an overreaction, IMHO. I game on my P50-C1 regularly with my CoD clan and have no problem.

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post #59835 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 10:33 AM
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Sorry you're not happy with it. That said, I always find it odd when people refer to "awful input lag" when it comes to gaming. I think much of this is psychological. We're talking about 3 frames of input lag on the P-series (52ms measured / 16.6ms = 3.13 frames) for 60fps games. That's 1/20th of a second. The highest measured reaction time of humans = 100ms. The average reaction time of humans = 200ms. Tick rate for most online games = 49.8ms (3 frames or 1/20th of a second). Hit detection/prediction in most online shooters ranges from 100-200ms, depending on the game. All of those things interacting means that within about 100ms, you just aren't going to FEEL a difference (or any competitive advantage). People have this notion that they will based on the numbers... and even blame input lag when playing games sometimes, but the math shows that it just isn't as crucial as most tend to think.

Don't get me wrong... The lower, the better. But calling 3 frames "awful" is a bit of an overreaction, IMHO. I game on my P50-C1 regularly with my CoD clan and have no problem.
See this is where your information is skewed. The importance of a low input lag isn't always just about human reaction time. It is more about timing controller input to the visual information at hand. I can feel and see the difference of 52ms display vs a lower input lag display easily. When I turn left and right on a 3D game like COD, I can see the lag response difference between a 52ms display vs my 1ms monitor. Put me in front of whatever scientific measuring equipment you want. I can feel/see the difference 100% of the time. Just like when these displays have GLL. I can feel the difference when it is off/on 100% of the time.
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post #59836 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 10:39 AM
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My networking continues to be totally screwed up after the latest firmware update, notwithstanding that it was totally solid before. It continues to lose the wireless network connection. A soft reboot generally fixes it for a while, but it always cuts out again. It obviously makes smartcast pretty unusable. Is anyone else having this problem?
mine has been like that since day one if its in quickstart mode, in eco all is well.

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post #59837 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 10:39 AM
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I received a call from a manager at vizio, in response to my BBB complaint about this firmware fiasco. He told me they are still trying to replicate it and asked some fairly specific questions such as model number of my AVR, every device connected to it and in which ports, what all is connected to the TV and all the specific steps ive taken to temporarily correct the hdr issue. He said he will follow up with me after he talks to the engineers.

He also specifically said "it does look like the issues were introduced with the 4.0.23.2 update". So theres that at least.
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post #59838 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 10:42 AM
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When I turn left and right on a 3D game like COD, I can see the lag response difference between a 52ms display vs my 1ms monitor.
In other news, water is wet. Anyone with a brain can tell the difference between those two, since 1ms is effectively no lag. It's not the most fair comparison you're making. What about the difference between an LG OLED and your Vizio? Could you tell the difference between them? I'd wager not, since the differences are much smaller. EDIT - at least the difference would be negligible, at best.

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Put me in front of whatever scientific measuring equipment you want. I can feel/see the difference 100% of the time. Just like when these displays have GLL. I can feel the difference when it is off/on 100% of the time.
I would hope so! Turning on GLL can, in some cases, cut the input lag by half or more.

The thing @Jeremy Anderson was trying to say, I believe, is that @needleseye 's post is hyperbolic to a fault.
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post #59839 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 10:48 AM
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The thing @Jeremy Anderson was trying to say, I believe, is that @needleseye 's post is hyperbolic to a fault.
Then he should have left the human response time out of it as that information wasn't relative to what everyone refers to with display input lag. That is my point. If you are going to make an argument, then try to use relevant information.
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post #59840 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 11:01 AM
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No one knows the price of the quantum p yet. It's like.the new reference with less zones. Why have they not upgraded VP9 to VP9-2 so we can watch YouTube HDR?
maybe the 2018 p are using the same boards as the 2016/17.... which might mean unified firmware and we get another year of main support!

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post #59841 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 11:05 AM
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maybe the 2018 p are using the same boards as the 2016/17.... which might mean unified firmware and we get another year of main support!
Why are there people here who seem to think that just because a new model is released that your 1-2 year old model will lose support? It's redunculous. My 5 year old Samsung TV received a firmware update 6 months ago. Relax people. Support isn't over until they say it is.
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post #59842 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 11:09 AM
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Why are there people here who s to think that just because a new model is released that your 1 year old model will lose support? It's redunculous. My 5 year old Samsung TV received a firmware update 6 months ago. Relax people. Support isn't over until they say it is.
I know this, thats why I qualified the statement with the word main. There is only some many engineers to go around in a company and it only makes sense that a new/current or launching product will get more attention than an older discontinued one.
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post #59843 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 11:18 AM
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I know this, thats why I qualified the statement with the word main. There is only some many engineers to go around in a company and it only makes sense that a new/current or launching product will get more attention than an older discontinued one.
The 2018 65" F is listed at $1299 (same as 2017) with 100 dimming zones. Less than 2016 and 2017. The bezzle is only on bottom.

Lists a minor difference in processor, etc.

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post #59844 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 11:30 AM
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I know this, thats why I qualified the statement with the word main. There is only some many engineers to go around in a company and it only makes sense that a new/current or launching product will get more attention than an older discontinued one.
Main support? Support is support is support. Vizio has already stated that 2016/2017 displays will get the new 2018 OS.
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post #59845 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 11:38 AM
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I received a call from a manager at vizio, in response to my BBB complaint about this firmware fiasco. He told me they are still trying to replicate it and asked some fairly specific questions such as model number of my AVR, every device connected to it and in which ports, what all is connected to the TV and all the specific steps ive taken to temporarily correct the hdr issue. He said he will follow up with me after he talks to the engineers.

He also specifically said "it does look like the issues were introduced with the 4.0.23.2 update". So theres that at least.
Confirmed Vizio Engineers don't test firmware with ps4 or xbox with an AVR or who knows even at all. How can they not reproduce it what a joke.
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post #59846 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 11:40 AM
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Main support? Support is support is support. Vizio has already stated that 2016/2017 displays will get the new 2018 OS.
Agreed. From what I gather, across all the P series models from 2016 to current, the firmware is baseline so it seems like updates pushed will go to all units using the same OS similar to an OS update across multiple different model PCs. I wouldn't worry about support being dropped until the smartcast platform itself is dropped or technical limitations prevent it period.
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post #59847 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by skschatzman View Post
Then he should have left the human response time out of it as that information wasn't relative to what everyone refers to with display input lag. That is my point. If you are going to make an argument, then try to use relevant information.
Do we have measured input latency readings for the Vizios? Last I remember was when Matt McRae had given us numbers. A lot surely could have changed since then, but I have, admittedly, been out of the loop on this.

My P65-C1 gets a lot of gaming on it and, while I do wish the input latency was smaller, I've never felt like it's hindered my gameplay experience. Like you said, though, it can be immediately felt when a display has high input latency. I don't know if we'll ever see the big TV manufacturers approach gaming latency like nVidia is or if it simply be a niche feature.
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post #59848 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 12:27 PM
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See this is where your information is skewed. The importance of a low input lag isn't always just about human reaction time. It is more about timing controller input to the visual information at hand. I can feel and see the difference of 52ms display vs a lower input lag display easily. When I turn left and right on a 3D game like COD, I can see the lag response difference between a 52ms display vs my 1ms monitor. Put me in front of whatever scientific measuring equipment you want. I can feel/see the difference 100% of the time. Just like when these displays have GLL. I can feel the difference when it is off/on 100% of the time.
First, there are no monitors with 1ms of input lag. There are monitors with 1ms response time, certainly, but the lowest input lag measured from a monitor is still about 9ms (depending on how you measure - you could argue that no monitor has less than 14ms input lag using the Leo Bodnar method of testing). That's relevant only in that for 60fps (which is what the discussion revolves around), that means you are still at 1 frame of input lag with the fastest display available. You believe that you can "see" the difference between 1 frame and 3 frames... but I still posit that it's largely psychological. In a blind test, I'm pretty confident that you would not be able to choose between 1/60th of a second and 1/20th of a second. There is actually enough variance even in button/stick travel that you couldn't. The vast majority can't detect input lag until about 4-5 frames. And if the P-series displays are measuring 52ms using the Leo Bodnar test or its equivalent, that's more like 2 frames in actual practice.

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In other news, water is wet. Anyone with a brain can tell the difference between those two, since 1ms is effectively no lag. It's not the most fair comparison you're making. What about the difference between an LG OLED and your Vizio? Could you tell the difference between them? I'd wager not, since the differences are much smaller. EDIT - at least the difference would be negligible, at best.


I would hope so! Turning on GLL can, in some cases, cut the input lag by half or more.

The thing @Jeremy Anderson was trying to say, I believe, is that @needleseye 's post is hyperbolic to a fault.
That's exactly what I was saying. It's an overhyped metric. People lean on it for competitive gaming (though even the best fighting game players don't feel a 3 frame difference), but in practice, it's negligible. For 60Hz console gaming, unquestionably. But people believe it's a thing, so... it's a thing.
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Then he should have left the human response time out of it as that information wasn't relative to what everyone refers to with display input lag. That is my point. If you are going to make an argument, then try to use relevant information.
It's absolutely relevant, as input lag tends to be mentioned in terms of lower input lag benefiting competitive gamers. For gaming purposes, you are reacting to things on-screen. I mention that information because for online gaming, most people don't realize that you could have near-zero input lag and you're still beholden to the network code. But then, most people don't understand things like hit detection and prediction. If you're in the same room as me, on a local network, playing on a monitor with 1 frame of input lag compared to my 3 frames, and we both pull the trigger at the same time (which is nigh impossible in practice), the networking code still has to GUESS which of us "shot first" based on the information available. And that guesswork can fall anywhere between a 100-200ms window, depending on the game's code. And that's on a local network, where your latency would be nil. On the internet, you'd have variance of 40-70ms of latency depending on connection to the host.
Hell, the game itself may have its own internal detection latency even for single player games, wherein certain features are running at a partial update rate of the targeted refresh. A good example of this would be games that target 60fps (16.6ms/frame) but only update their physics/location data every 33ms.

My point remains: 3 frames being characterized as AWFUL for a 60Hz source is a bit of an overreaction. If you don't agree, that's fine... but the point remains. People worry about it way more than it matters in practice.
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post #59849 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 12:39 PM
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Do we have measured input latency readings for the Vizios? Last I remember was when Matt McRae had given us numbers. A lot surely could have changed since then, but I have, admittedly, been out of the loop on this.

My P65-C1 gets a lot of gaming on it and, while I do wish the input latency was smaller, I've never felt like it's hindered my gameplay experience. Like you said, though, it can be immediately felt when a display has high input latency. I don't know if we'll ever see the big TV manufacturers approach gaming latency like nVidia is or if it simply be a niche feature.
Rtings did Leo Bodnar input lag tests on them, which is where that 52ms value in the discussion was drawn from. That's the average based on that particular testing methodology (center screen of a 60Hz scan).

And I agree that ideally, we want the lowest input lag possible... but I could set you up with my fight stick for the fastest input possible using Sanwa Denshi arcade buttons, and your perception of the button press to what you see on-screen will be nigh imperceptible between a display with 1-3 frames of input lag. At 4 or 5, you would start to notice, but even then it would depend on the game and how it handles input. My point was that acting like ~3 frames of input lag was somehow a deal-breaker is a bit much. Maybe it's not ideal compared to another display with lower input lag... but in practice, it's not something that the vast majority could even perceive.

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post #59850 of 64739 Old 04-10-2018, 12:54 PM
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Display Input lag response time does not corilate with human response time. They are complely different aspects and they are measured completely different

Human response time is the measurement of how long it takes for the human subject to react to a response. The display input lag is the delay between when it receives a command and when the display reaction is output.

I play shooters like COD all the time and I am very familiar with latency and it's effects. When we talk about Display input lag, we aren't talking about human response. This is fact.
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Last edited by skschatzman; 04-10-2018 at 01:05 PM.
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