Official Vizio 2016/2017 P Series Owners ONLY Thread UHD/HDR/DV No Price Talk Please - Page 653 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19561 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:27 AM
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Red face

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Originally Posted by turts85 View Post
Clear action introduces flicker and is suggested that it should be off for gaming. GLL is on. Its not the 120hz vs 60hz that's an issue, its the fact the tv has motion blur with games or a duplication/ghosting effect. I should have expected this issue since it was an issue with last years 2015 M series, had great input lag but gaming suffered from a ghosting effect and long blur trails. I don't notice long blur trails on the P50 but it appears that some sort of blur is going on. The main reason I chose the P50 was because I am not a PC gamer so 120hz wasn't necessary for gaming, I wanted 120hz for my 24p Blu Rays since it would handle it better, which the P50 does pretty darn well with them anyway.

I recommended the x810c to that guy because it comes with a 120hz panel and IMO is better for gaming. He doesn't sound like he needs all the frills and thrills of HDR and DV, just wants a set that can perform very well with movies and games. The X810c has great upscaling and displays 4k content very crisp and nice. I prefer a TV that can perform well all around, I thought the P50 was the clear winner, but its gaming performance is killing it for me.

Anyway, back to Vizio

I own the P50.
Ok this is long overdue. This just needs to be said. So many people are getting this wrong and it is mostly because reviewers are mislabeling what is actually happening.

First off the picture below shows what “Motion Blur” looks like. This is where the backlight is held on continuously and the inherent latency in all LCD based TVs causes the outlines of objects to “Blur” with motion.

Almost all Sony TVs exhibit this “Sample and Hold” type of backlight. With the X810c image below you can see that there is a maximum amount of “blurring” possible. The outlines of the words are blurred across the screen but there is virtually no ghosting.



RTINGS.com incorrectly refers to this as “Minimum Motion Blur” when what they actually mean is this is “Minimum Ghosting”.

The OLED TVs also use the “Sample and Hold” type of backlight but they have virtually instantaneous pixel response so they have very minimal “Motion Blurring”. However, it is still there as the picture below shows.



A lot of people have become accustomed to the Blurring that Sample and Hold produces and almost all reviewers promote it as a good thing. For regular TV it really isn’t a bad thing because the longer camera shutter durations that are used produce a blurring effect anyway. That means that those TVs can get very bright and you don’t notice the motion blur because it is inherently there in the footage anyway.

However, with games and computer generated content this Motion Blurring is VERY detrimental. As you can see from the picture above it will blur scrolling text that is produced by a computer. The computer generated content is produced with discreet frames that were not filmed. Therefore, that content has very well defined object outlines unless they add additional blurring to mimic the film look.

For computer games “Motion Blur” is the worst thing possible. It will cause scrolling words to become unreadable and it will cause motion of objects to become blurred across the screen.
That is why OLED TVs really aren’t the best choice for Games. They use Sample and Hold and they generally don’t have anything like the “pulse-width modulation”(PWM) features that some LCD based TVs use. The beauty of PWM is that it can flicker the backlight to prevent the motion blur that Sample and Hold produces.

Now that isn’t to say that PWM is the end all be all. It isn’t. It has some severe drawbacks. For instance PWM flickers the backlight and that literally can produce a “flickering” effect on the TV. Sometimes this Flickering is so apparent that it can actually be nauseating. If that is the case then it obviously would be useless to that user.

It doesn’t end there either. PWM doesn’t hold the backlight on continuously so the light output of the display is reduced. This is why the Sample and Hold Sony TVs can get so bright. However, Samsung and Vizio will both switch to Sample and Hold if their backlights are maxed out so they can get very bright as well. See the pictures below for examples of how their backlights react at different levels.

Samsung KS9500 backlight response


2016 Vizio P-series backlight response


Like I said before Sample and Hold is fine for regular TV or movie content. However, it is a falsehood that PWM can improve sports. It won’t because of the inherent Motion Blur that the cameras produce.

Therefore, for regular TV and movies it actually doesn’t matter whether it is PWM or Sample Hold. Instead what matters there is if your pixel response time is absurdly long. So far there really haven’t been many TVs that have pixel response values that long. However, there is one 2016 display that really stands out as HORRIBLE for motion Blur. That is the 2016 Vizio E-series.

Vizio should be ashamed of the 2016 E-series motion performance as the image below demonstrates. This is enough pixel latency to effect even regular TV content and cause excessive motion blurring even above and beyond what is in the regular camera based content.



I wouldn’t accept a 2016 Vizio E-series if you offered it to me for free. Pixel latency like it has is unacceptable in all cases. Even turning on its Clear Action feature which enables aggressive PWM won’t help much. That is one TV I would avoid altogether as the reviewers correctly identified.

Also another issue that PWM can produce is the appearance of a double image or Ghosting. Instead of blurring the outlines of objects it will produce a well-defined image that is duplicated 1 or more times. This ghosting is often incorrectly referred to as “Motion Blur”.

Vizio P-series "Ghosting" without Clear Action enabled



The Ghosting is a big issue as well. However, it can be reduced significantly with aggressive PWM. That is why you should enable “Clear Action” with games even if you also have Game Latency Enabled as well. This will greatly reduce the ghosting effect and also give you exceptional input lag response time.

The motion interpolation controls can also be utilized to reduce if not eliminate Ghosting. However, those controls cannot be enabled with GLL so Clear Action is the better choice there.

With clear action enabled the Screen will dim and some flicker will be noticeable especially with all white backgrounds like web browsers. However, during video games the flickering should not be very noticeable at all.

I hope this helps clear up some of the misconceptions about “Ghosting” and “Motion Blur”.
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post #19562 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Ok this is long overdue. This just needs to be said. So many people are getting this wrong and it is mostly because reviewers are mislabeling what is actually happening.

Spoiler!


I hope this helps clear up some of the misconceptions about “Ghosting” and “Motion Blur”.
Thanks! I'm going to add a link to this post to Page 1, Post 1.
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post #19563 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:32 AM
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Have you ever used speednet to check it at different times a day, and weekends?
Yes... I check often.
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You've been lucky. It doesn't work out like that for many. Attainable speed also depends upon what the site (server) and its provider can support. It also depends upon how many other Internet users are active near you -- ISPs always oversell, and then hope that no more than a certain %age of the users will use their service at the same time.
Not sure I'm lucky. I've had 3 different cable providers in 2 different states. Metrocast, Comcast and now Time Warner Cable ( Charter). I can tell you I'm not that lucky.


Of course the servers the data is coming from play a role but that goes with out saying. We are talking about streaming services like Netflix, Vudu and Hulu. I expect them to have all the bandwidth needed.

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post #19564 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:36 AM
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Here's a strange question. I hooked up my iMac to the HDMI 2 port on the TV and get no signal. The iMac detects the TV but I don't get a picture on it. Won't matter if my iMac settings are with Mirror Displays on and off. Heck, it even identifies the TV as the P75. Anyone else having issues like this?
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post #19565 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Bootnylee View Post
It's the xbox1

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
I would bank on this. In many instances, and analysis by Digital Foundry the XBone delivers weaker performance and sub 30 frame rates. It really struggles pushing 1080 game content. So much so, that a lot of games are 900p upscaled on the XBone to 1080 in the framebuffer. Of the two consoles this generation PS4 is the more powerful. The XBone's performance issues may be coming through. Have you tried borrowing someone's PS4 and checking to see of you are seeing the same issues?

I have a PS4 and I'm not seeing this issue on the P55-c1. I'll give a closer look when I get home.
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post #19566 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by buntcake72 View Post
Here's a strange question. I hooked up my iMac to the HDMI 2 port on the TV and get no signal. The iMac detects the TV but I don't get a picture on it. Won't matter if my iMac settings are with Mirror Displays on and off. Heck, it even identifies the TV as the P75. Anyone else having issues like this?
No. Does it work on other HDMI ports?

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post #19567 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te View Post
The Vudu UHD issue has been mentioned I would guess about 10 times in the last few pages. It is a known issue with the android app when Vudu released an app update about a week or two ago. If you have an IOS device I believe those are unaffected.


Sent from nowhere
Yes, I'm aware that it's been mentioned in the past few pages. I contributed towards that, and I am aware of the history. i am also aware of the SmartCast workaround, but that workaround is not helping in this case because I cannot access the extended cut of the movie I just purchased. Vizio SmartCast only catalogs the theatrical cut, not the extended cut.

I find this situation very disconcerting.

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post #19568 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:48 AM
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No. Does it work on other HDMI ports?
Didn't work on Port 5 either. HDMI 1 is for my reciever. Even put it in the reciever (VSX-90) to see if that might help and no picture but the iMac detects the reciever! So odd.
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post #19569 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Didn't work on Port 5 either. HDMI 1 is for my reciever. Even put it in the reciever (VSX-90) to see if that might help and no picture but the iMac detects the reciever! So odd.
Plug it into your Pioneer and look at the iControl app. The info screen should show you the video specs of the incoming signal on that HDMI input on the AVR. Might be a clue. You could set the Pioneer to "scale" the output and maybe the TV would like it better. Not sure.

Also, did you try turning on HDMI subsampling? Shouldn't really be the trigger but worth a shot.

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post #19570 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Ok this is long overdue. This just needs to be said. So many people are getting this wrong and it is mostly because reviewers are mislabeling what is actually happening.

First off the picture below shows what “Motion Blur” looks like. This is where the backlight is held on continuously and the inherent latency in all LCD based TVs causes the outlines of objects to “Blur” with motion.

Almost all Sony TVs exhibit this “Sample and Hold” type of backlight. With the X810c image below you can see that there is a maximum amount of “blurring” possible. The outlines of the words are blurred across the screen but there is virtually no ghosting.



RTINGS.com incorrectly refers to this as “Minimum Motion Blur” when what they actually mean is this is “Minimum Ghosting”.
Thanks for the excellent clarification on that! Seems to me that rtings gets a LOT of things incorrect in their reviews from what i have been hearing?
I was using them as a basic guide line to choosing a TV but i am having definite second thoughts about listening to them at all!
They also said Vizio's dont not upscale that well to the point of maybe considering a different brand IF you watch SD or 720p content like my comcast cable
BUT other who win the vizio sets say different and that vizio is no worse than other at upscaling SD or 720 content?
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post #19571 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by shoman94 View Post
Yes... I check often.


Not sure I'm lucky. I've had 3 different cable providers in 2 different states. Metrocast, Comcast and now Time Warner Cable ( Charter). I can tell you I'm not that lucky.


Of course the servers the data is coming from play a role but that goes with out saying. We are talking about streaming services like Netflix, Vudu and Hulu. I expect them to have all the bandwidth needed.


You're lucky....take a look at the numerous posts on people not getting advertised speeds or getting certain traffic throttled. Many will have fluctuating speeds throughout the day and night depending on what they are trying to do. Heck I know I get different results for speeds tests and can be +\- 1-5MB (sometimes more) (and yes MB is what I meant).

Most providers are good enough to say "up to X speed". This often can depend on mode saturation, traffic between one and the destination and also the shaping of said traffic by ones provider. Let's not even bring those that live in rural areas and have DSL.

The only "guaranteed" speeds I know of are business accounts. Those often are separated from consumer traffic.


Sent from nowhere
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post #19572 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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You're lucky....take a look at the numerous posts on people not getting advertised speeds or getting certain traffic throttled. Many will have fluctuating speeds throughout the day and night depending on what they are trying to do. Heck I know I get different results for speeds tests and can be +\- 1-5MB (sometimes more) (and yes MB is what I meant).

Most providers are good enough to say "up to X speed". This often can depend on mode saturation, traffic between one and the destination and also the shaping of said traffic by ones provider. Let's not even bring those that live in rural areas and have DSL.

The only "guaranteed" speeds I know of are business accounts. Those often are separated from consumer traffic.


Sent from nowhere
Seems like the only way for many to beat this is to "overbuy" bandwidth. If you want sustained 25, buy 50. Sad but true for many.
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post #19573 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
Plug it into your Pioneer and look at the iControl app. The info screen should show you the video specs of the incoming signal on that HDMI input on the AVR. Might be a clue. You could set the Pioneer to "scale" the output and maybe the TV would like it better. Not sure.

Also, did you try turning on HDMI subsampling? Shouldn't really be the trigger but worth a shot.
I'm not seeing where the info screen is in my iControl app. Only a status screen. Subsampling is on. My HDMI 4.4.4 is on my reciever but only for ports 1-3 on the reciever.
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I just got off the phone with Vudu customer support. We had a very lengthy, in-depth conversation about the UHD casting bug, and he tells me it's now an elevated issue with their tech department. We had to rule out device compatibility issues, and it is now clearly a "coding issue" on their end. I also took the opportunity to request more UHD titles from different studios; and I suggested they add a representative presence to this site, someone to offer products updates, special offers and some form of tech support.

Hopefully this will be resolved quickly.
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post #19575 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by buntcake72 View Post
I'm not seeing where the info screen is in my iControl app. Only a status screen. Subsampling is on. My HDMI 4.4.4 is on my reciever but only for ports 1-3 on the reciever.
Sorry, yes, Status Viewer. It should list your video input specs.... resolution, aspect, color depth, bit depth.

Also, If subsampling has been "on".... did you try it with it "off"?

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Originally Posted by bferr1 View Post
I just got off the phone with Vudu customer support. We had a very lengthy, in-depth conversation about the UHD casting bug, and he tells me it's now an elevated issue with their tech department. We had to rule out device compatibility issues, and it is now clearly a "coding issue" on their end. I also took the opportunity to request more UHD titles from different studios; and I suggested they add a representative presence to this site, someone to offer products updates, special offers and some form of tech support.

Hopefully this will be resolved quickly.
Did the suggestions I posted work for you as a temporary solution?

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post #19577 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bferr1 View Post
I just got off the phone with Vudu customer support. We had a very lengthy, in-depth conversation about the UHD casting bug, and he tells me it's now an elevated issue with their tech department. We had to rule out device compatibility issues, and it is now clearly a "coding issue" on their end. I also took the opportunity to request more UHD titles from different studios; and I suggested they add a representative presence to this site, someone to offer products updates, special offers and some form of tech support.

Hopefully this will be resolved quickly.
Yes, this issue was identified, communicated in writing and replicated by Vizio last Friday. Unfortunately it was entering into the biggest holiday weekend of the year.
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There's finally some really cool DV stuff on Amazon Prime I'd want to see. Really pissing me off we can't watch it. So fing stupid. I have a Fire TV box too, what a waste.
It is this very reason that I haven't bought any UHD content from Amazon except Timescapes and that one is no longer working. It's showing as SD instead of UHD. I've been working with Amazon for weeks to see what the problem is and they don't seem to know...
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post #19579 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 09:17 AM
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Sometimes when all of my roommates are home sucking up bandwidth, I get by on 20mb/s with Netflix just fine.
If you're watching UHD content from Netflix then I think we know who's "sucking up bandwidth".

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post #19580 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 09:25 AM
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Sorry, yes, Status Viewer. It should list your video input specs.... resolution, aspect, color depth, bit depth.

Also, If subsampling has been "on".... did you try it with it "off"?
I'm looking at the Status Viewer and it says:

Monitor 1
4k x 2k / 24Hz
36bit (12bit*3)
---

Hope that helps? Turning the Subsampling on and off didn't do anything.
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post #19581 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking at the Status Viewer and it says:

Monitor 1
4k x 2k / 24Hz
36bit (12bit*3)
---

Hope that helps? Turning the Subsampling on and off didn't do anything.
If it's truly outputting 4k, I would make sure you're using a good cable (less than 15' and certified). If you already tried this, great.

I know there are some 3rd party softwares available of the Mac that allow you to more finitely change the output video resolution. It sounds like an odd GPU sync issue.

You may have to contact Vizio if you can't modify the card settings and try to get it to sync at slightly modified specs.

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post #19582 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 09:48 AM
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Yes, this issue was identified, communicated in writing and replicated by Vizio last Friday. Unfortunately it was entering into the biggest holiday weekend of the year.
I understand. I was pleased to see that the Vizio SmartCast workaround actually worked, so I bought the Batman vs Superman bundle, only to learn that the SmartCast app only indexes the theatrical cut. Very frustrating, and I feel like giving up and going back to books or something!

I also spoke to Vizio SmartCast tech support about the BvS indexing issue, and they said there was nothing to be done about it, that their software will pull only one title out of a bundle. I guess I can understand that. But then I mentioned that the two cuts of the film are available separately and that the two cuts really should be indexed separately within Vizio SmartCast, and he said that Vudu would have to resolve that on their end.

And yes, your temporary fix of switching resolutions within the Vudu app after a 30-second wait did work for me when I tried just now. It went from SD to UHD-- what a jump in quality! Thanks for the suggestion, though I really hope Vudu fixes their issues pronto!
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post #19583 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 10:06 AM
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Anyone using the k8500 with hdmi 1 going to the tv and 2 to the avr for sound? I am getting horrible lip sync that i can't get corrected both when streaming and watching uhd discs. I'm using a marantz sr5008


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post #19584 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shortyg83 View Post
Anyone using the k8500 with hdmi 1 going to the tv and 2 to the avr for sound? I am getting horrible lip sync that i can't get corrected both when streaming and watching uhd discs. I'm using a marantz sr5008


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I don't but it's a known issue with the dual HDMI connection method w that player.

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SONY Z9F LCD Master Series Owners Thread
Vizio 2016 P series FAQ, general info and Help
Sony Z9F 75, Vizio P75C1 UHD/HDR/DV, Pioneer Elite SC-95, Samsung UHD Bluray K8500, AppleTV 4K, CC Ultra
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post #19585 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 10:22 AM
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I don't but it's a known issue with the dual HDMI connection method w that player.

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That sucks, I was planning to get a new avr anyway, but i guess this will make me do so sooner. I really miss lossless surround sound.


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post #19586 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 10:28 AM
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It's the xbox1

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This would be good news...What makes you say that??

I need a good 60fps 3rd person game to test...any recommendations? Anyone play 2k16 at all on xbox one? I'm really curious if your getting the same effect I am.
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post #19587 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 10:29 AM
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I went to purchase a P75 today from my local Besbuy Magnolia store.

They are unable to get the tv shipped to any location even Manhatten and Baltimore at this point. Not even place an order to be shipped at a later date.

They are able to ship the P65 within a few days.

The manager offered to sell me the P75 floor model if I don't want to wait.

The Vizio online store says the tv will ship within 60 days of purchase.
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post #19588 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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That sucks, I was planning to get a new avr anyway, but i guess this will make me do so sooner. I really miss lossless surround sound.


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Check out the K8500 thread and see if any specific AVR's are better than others.

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SONY Z9F LCD Master Series Owners Thread
Vizio 2016 P series FAQ, general info and Help
Sony Z9F 75, Vizio P75C1 UHD/HDR/DV, Pioneer Elite SC-95, Samsung UHD Bluray K8500, AppleTV 4K, CC Ultra
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post #19589 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by turts85 View Post
This would be good news...What makes you say that??

I need a good 60fps 3rd person game to test...any recommendations? Anyone play 2k16 at all on xbox one? I'm really curious if your getting the same effect I am.

I believe Metal Gear Solid V is locked 60 FPS, but only renders at 1600x900 and is upscaled on Xbox One.
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post #19590 of 64596 Old 07-06-2016, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Ok this is long overdue.
Vizio P-series "Ghosting" without Clear Action enabled


Thank you for this...the picture you provided of the P series ghosting is exactly what is seen in GTA V...so I guess it is the TV. The Sony x810c looks like regular blur you would get but there is no ghosting. THAT IS WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR!!! Should have returned the P50 when I had the chance. DAMNNIITTTT

Goes to show that lag is great on these sets but the motion blur and ghosting I am experiencing in NBA 2k16 and GTA V is beyond distracting and literally makes my eyes twitch. Guess the P series isn't great for gaming, at least not the P50. With that type of ghosting I would have spent the 100$ more and sacrificed losing HDR, DV, and WCG for better gaming and motion performance, let alone better upscaling and displaying 4k content. Would have gained 5", 120hz panel too. oh well...guess its time to hash it out with CS.
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