RUMOR: New Sony announcement in mid to late July - Page 37 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1081 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by video_analysis View Post
I think you're speaking a bit presumptuously because ever since I got a taste of the kind of contrast superiority of emissive, I wanted something even bigger than the 111FD and better than the ZT60, which was not without its faults.
Hence why I didn't say all people...

Having "downgraded" to a VT60, I can see why a lot of late generation plasma owners would still be waiting on the fence for display types to either further mature or advance or brand new ones to come forth...as long as they don't need to go bigger than 65" for their needs at the moment.

OLED isn't perfect.
LCD/LED isn't perfect.
Projection isn't perfect.

Pointing out the faults of any of those types isn't hoping that they fail or bashing them...it's being subjective and realistic.

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post #1082 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:11 PM
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post #1083 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The ZD9 has to have an order of magnitude (likely two) more LEDs than the Vizio R to do what the prototype did at CES (if the ZD9 has similar granularity in the backlight).
To me it sounds like backlit LED with more than thousand zones LEDs individually being controlled with dimming algorithms..Where am i wrong
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post #1084 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Instead of caring about numbers, at this point the on hand observations mean most.

They didn't list zone count because it doesn't use the zone method like previous led tvs, each led is controlled individually acting as its own zone. Sounds to me like this tv has 1000 leds, all controlled. The js9500, is confirmed to have 600 leds broken into 150 poorly controlled zones. Jumping up to 1000 leds is in self a big jump. It should have some crazy good shadow detail.
Where did this 1000 LED number come from?

I still contend it has way more than 1000 LEDs. The sort of resolution the backlight only images they were showing at CES (in the prototype) aren't done with 1000 LEDs. So, either these don't have nearly the sort of granularity like the CES demos did, or they're simply being very coy and are vastly understating the number of LEDs.

While I realize it's just an illustration with a disclaimer that it's simulated, the illustration on the ZD9 product page for the backlight shows about 4000 LEDs, and it's not an illustration of the entire backlight.

I'll be curious to see what is reported when someone does a tear down and counts the LEDs. The larger sets very likely have more LEDs too. If they don't have more LEDs the TV would have to be thicker, but they're all about the same thickness. The 100" is a little thicker, but I'd expect that's due to the additional material needed to support the sheer size of it.

Last edited by Stereodude; 07-20-2016 at 03:27 PM.
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post #1085 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
To me it sounds like backlit LED with more than thousand zones LEDs individually being controlled with dimming algorithms..Where am i wrong
I think TuteTibiImperes may be correct that this is a combination of their Crystal LED/CLEDIS technology and a LCD.
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
I wonder if this wasn't a direct result of Sony's Crystal LED/CLEDIS program. If you think about it, the backlight is now basically a monochrome low-resolution LED array, so a super-basic CLEDIS display. They can probably feed it the same signal going to the main display, and it just reproduces it in a Luma-only fashion (since there are no colored LEDs) and that would be the perfect backlight intensity map for whatever's on the real screen at any given moment.
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post #1086 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MrJames View Post
Maybe production models will be curved like some X930D models were.
tsk! tsk!

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post #1087 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post
I will guarantee you will be able to get the 65" for $4500 within the next 6 months.
What is your prediction for 75 on Black Friday?

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post #1088 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Hence why I didn't say all people...

Having "downgraded" to a VT60, I can see why a lot of late generation plasma owners would still be waiting on the fence for display types to either further mature or advance or brand new ones to come forth...as long as they don't need to go bigger than 65" for their needs at the moment.

OLED isn't perfect.
LCD/LED isn't perfect.
Projection isn't perfect.

Pointing out the faults of any of those types isn't hoping that they fail or bashing them...it's being subjective and realistic.
Catching up on this thread over the last 100 posts, the overemphasis was definitely on the former's faults, but then again I have to consider the location of the thread (and the topic).
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post #1089 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by davehale View Post
What is your prediction for 75 on Black Friday?


Black Friday wont do anything on the price of this display. black friday displays are funai ,Westinghouse ,polaroid,blaupunkt.

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post #1090 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The ZD9 has to have an order of magnitude (likely two) more LEDs than the Vizio R to do what the prototype did at CES (if the ZD9 has similar granularity in the backlight).
What did you see at CES that couldn't be done on the Vizio R or similar model with large zone count? Looks like about what I would expect from a 1000 zone (88x50) count display based on this image.
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post #1091 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Where did this 1000 LED number come from?

I still contend it has way more than 1000 LEDs. The sort of resolution the backlight only images they were showing at CES (in the prototype) aren't done with 1000 LEDs. So, either these don't have nearly the sort of granularity like the CES demos did, or they're simply being very coy and are vastly understating the number of LEDs.

While I realize it's just an illustration with a disclaimer that it's simulated, the illustration on the ZD9 product page for the backlight shows about 4000 LEDs, and it's not an illustration of the entire backlight.

I'll be curious to see what is reported when someone does a tear down and counts the LEDs. The larger sets very likely have more LEDs too. If they don't have more LEDs the TV would have to be thicker, but they're all about the same thickness. The 100" is a little thicker, but I'd expect that's due to the additional material needed to support the sheer size of it.


If I recall correctly, Sony said the prototype at ces was 4000 nits and I believe they said "thousands" of leds. Assuming the zd9 series is a dumb downed version, I would guess 2000 nits and 1000 leds. The rumor going around the world was 1000 zones (40x25) And since sony says every led is controlled, that means the led number equals the zone number.
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post #1092 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
What did you see at CES that couldn't be done on the Vizio R or similar model with large zone count? Looks like about what I would expect from a 1000 zone (88x50) count display based on this image.
88x50=4400, not 1000, but do you think you can create this image with an 88x50 grid?

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post #1093 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Where did this 1000 LED number come from?

I still contend it has way more than 1000 LEDs. The sort of resolution the backlight only images they were showing at CES (in the prototype) aren't done with 1000 LEDs. So, either these don't have nearly the sort of granularity like the CES demos did, or they're simply being very coy and are vastly understating the number of LEDs.

While I realize it's just an illustration with a disclaimer that it's simulated, the illustration on the ZD9 product page for the backlight shows about 4000 LEDs, and it's not an illustration of the entire backlight.

I'll be curious to see what is reported when someone does a tear down and counts the LEDs. The larger sets very likely have more LEDs too. If they don't have more LEDs the TV would have to be thicker, but they're all about the same thickness. The 100" is a little thicker, but I'd expect that's due to the additional material needed to support the sheer size of it.
I think you are right. I did a partial count and if you extrapolate to the whole screen it's got at least 4000 LEDs.
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post #1094 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Black Friday wont do anything on the price of this display. black friday displays are funai ,Westinghouse ,polaroid,blaupunkt.
Didn't mean to be coy. So what do you think the US price could most likely be by Christmas Holiday? Want to pick this up at the appropriate time frame that would include 1 possibly 2 price reductions without waiting too long.

Sony 75Z9D, Denon 4300H, Sony 65Z9D, Denon X4311, OPPO UDP-203, ATV4K, X1X Scorpio
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post #1095 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Beachboy273 View Post
Here are the pricing....
Magnolia says $7999 but when you add it to the cart it prices at $9999
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post #1096 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 04:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Were there any other sets there to compare it to, like an OLED or a 940D?
No, though I'm very familiar with the 940D and the nature of an OLED picture. And as mentioned, I could've been fooled that the Z9 was an OLED or modern-day plasma.

That said, the 100" wasn't present and I'll need to spend a lot of time with it once it's on display. Any potential issues become exacerbated the larger you go (regardless of display tech), so this will be critical.

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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Thanks for the early impressions!

I'm assuming you had to sign NDA, when does the NDA expire? Or did it expire today which is why you waited a couple days to post maybe?
Didn't have to sign anything. But yes, was told Sat it wasn't going to be revealed until sometime this week and I wasn't going to risk anything with my contact by adding fuel to the fire for what had become an increasingly devolving thread filled with loads of misinformation and silliness.

It's been mentioned several times before over the years, but AVS is widely-read by OEMs throughout the industry.
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post #1097 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by davehale View Post
Didn't mean to be coy. So what do you think the US price could most likely be by Christmas Holiday? Want to pick this up at the appropriate time frame that would include 1 possibly 2 price reductions without waiting too long.

Your best option is to buy from cleveland plasma or other non B&M store.


Don't expect huge sales on top of the line products. but you can definitely get a better deal from CP and other non B&M stores.


best B&M sales are when the Model will be discontinued for their New successor.

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Last edited by losservatore; 07-20-2016 at 04:19 PM.
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post #1098 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
If I recall correctly, Sony said the prototype at ces was 4000 nits and I believe they said "thousands" of leds. Assuming the zd9 series is a dumb downed version, I would guess 2000 nits and 1000 leds. The rumor going around the world was 1000 zones (40x25) And since sony says every led is controlled, that means the led number equals the zone number.
This is the sort of resolution you get in an image at 40x25:


This is 88x50:


This is 120x68:



I'd say it's much better than the 40x25, maybe a little better than the 88x50, maybe not quite as good as the 120x68.
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post #1099 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by marklivia View Post
I think you are right. I did a partial count and if you extrapolate to the whole screen it's got at least 4000 LEDs.
There's about 100 LEDs across in that illustration so I did a 100x56 image.



It doesn't look too far off the sort of resolution in the backlight Sony was showing at CES.
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post #1100 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
This is the sort of resolution you get in an image at 40x25:


This is 88x50:


This is 120x68:



I'd say it's much better than the 40x25, maybe a little better than the 88x50, maybe not quite as good as the 120x68.
Excellent sleuthing!
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post #1101 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by davehale View Post
Didn't mean to be coy. So what do you think the US price could most likely be by Christmas Holiday? Want to pick this up at the appropriate time frame that would include 1 possibly 2 price reductions without waiting too long.
Usually the first one is between 6 and 8 weeks. there's also an initial one that basically goes from MSRP to actual. In this case for the 65" $7000 MSRP pre-sale to $6000 in-store (see cleveland plasma's price).

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post #1102 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 04:44 PM
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If you go to the Sony website and it is a true representation of the led's, it's around 5000. This is not precise but I got around 47x120,now I have a headache from the small led count. LG had their Nano led TV, which were around 2200 led's in a 55 inch TV.( model LV9500.s Led's were 9~10 in size).
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post #1103 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 05:09 PM
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So what's the difference between this new Z series and the 75X940D? I need to become a mid grade NBA player to afford this set.
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post #1104 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeTV69 View Post
So what's the difference between this new Z series and the 75X940D? I need to become a mid grade NBA player to afford this set.

X1 EXTREME: 40% more processing power. Improved hdr converter. Improved algorithm capable of handling hdr gradations better, etc.


Motion flow 1440

2000 nits?


Backlight master drive: every led is individually controlled. Rumored to be 1000-2000 leds. Sony claims nearly zero bloom even at maximum brightness.
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post #1105 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 05:43 PM
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Most likely a 10bit panel right? Any chance they could do a 12? Still no mention of Dolby Vision. Come on, Sony pictures is supporting it!
Still I can't wait to see this beast in person!
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post #1106 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 05:48 PM
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Sony Launch ZD9 4K HDR TV with Backlight Master Drive
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post #1107 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Most likely a 10bit panel right? Any chance they could do a 12? Still no mention of Dolby Vision. Come on, Sony pictures is supporting it!
Well, 10bit + FRC = 12 bit. Of course the drivers on the LCD glass don't have same the EOTF as the HDR formats, so I don't really get the consternation about 12-bit panels, especially when you've got a local dimming backlight.
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post #1108 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 06:13 PM
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https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/20/sony-z-series/

Quote:
We were also treated to a side-by-side comparison of a Z-series TV when compared to an LG OLED TV plus a Samsung LCD, both of which are 4K HDR sets. The same video seen on the Samsung set looked pretty washed out -- the blacks were not nearly as deep and dark. The OLED TV, on the other hand, handled blacks as well as the Z-series, but it couldn't handle subtle colors. For example, a shot of a light fixture looked a little blown out on the OLED screen, while the same scene on the Z-series appeared more true-to-life. Similarly, a close-up of cooked rice looked rather monotone on the OLED screen, while the Z-series showed the same scene in much richer detail, so much so that each rice grain seemed to pop from the display.

According to Sony Electronics President Michael Fasulo, Sony sought the opinions and insight of the creative community when developing the set. "We've designed it so that the video you see on screen is exactly as [the filmmakers] want it," he said. However, the TVs aren't quite perfect -- a Q&A session at the press event revealed that the Z-series doesn't support Dolby Vision.

Despite the quality of the Sony Z-series, I'm not sure if that extra bit of color realism is worth the added $3,000 to $4,000 premium. It certainly looks a lot better than comparable LCDs, but the difference between this and a cheaper OLED is not quite enough in my opinion. Still, it's an admirable step forward in TV technology and I'd be interested to see if Sony will come out with smaller-sized 4K HDR sets in the future.
FWIW (I doubt Sony is going to optimize the settings on the Samsung and LG).
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post #1109 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post

Thats a GREAT article and summary of how hdr and nits work. Vincent Teoh is a pro and extremely knowledgeable with the entire hdr/sdr world knowing all the ins and outs.
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post #1110 of 1428 Old 07-20-2016, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
88x50=4400, not 1000, but do you think you can create this image with an 88x50 grid?

You're right, I was just messing with numbers on some scrap paper trying to come up with a good even 16x9 zone ratio. There is no high frequency detail in that image at all. If you blur the heck out of a 88x50 grid you could easily achieve that or better as you've found in your other posts above. Even 44x25 would not be far off when you consider these CES images are very small and taken some distance from the display.

You also have to keep in mind that these images are simulations done for marketing purposes. Who knows what they are really trying to show there. Are they really displaying all black in the front LCD layer and using just the light grid to create this image? Or are they using the LCD layer for additional modulation of the light from the grid to create the final grayscale image? Notice how the background is gray and not black? I would not put too much weight into these images.

Price tells the whole story because there is a limit on what's practical to manufacture and remain profitable. Wild ideas like dual-layer LCD are not. Apple filed a patent on that not too long ago and you can read that to see why it's not realistic at this time. Huge zone counts are not either at these prices.

I'm sure it will still be the best LCD to come out so far since tech always marches forward. Remains to be seen how it compared to OLED.
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