Sony Announces Z9D FALD-LCD UHDTVs - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1717Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #151 of 1951 Old 07-21-2016, 09:27 PM
Member
 
Wolfy701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Me, for bright room performance (VE Shootout), more noticeable HDR (explained in the AV Forums podcast), motion handling (24p performance in the RTings website), lack of crushing blacks due to hyper compressed content on 5mbs streams (well known issue).
I would go with OLED because 65" is max size for my living room and it's not super bright. Also there's the cachet of OLED that a comparable LCD/LED just does not have. It's like buying a Lexus or a souped-up fully-loaded Toyota for the same money, that's just not the same, no matter how good it is.
SuicideJockey likes this.

Source: Thinkpad running iTunes/Oppo driver upsampled to 24/192
DAC/SACD: Oppo 105D
Amp: Pathos Aurium (home), LG V30 running Onkyo HF Player (portable)
Headphone: AKG K812, AKG N5005 IEM's, Bowers & Wilkins PX7 Wireless
Wolfy701 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #152 of 1951 Old 07-21-2016, 09:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,611
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1009 Post(s)
Liked: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post
They do look like an improvement, just not as big as I was hoping. And now Sony is pulling the same inflated MSRP they all pull so they can discount $1000-2000 off on day one, to make it seem like a sale when it is actually the real MSRP. At a street of $4500 for the 65" they had a chance, but any higher and you might as well go OLED. There are already a few reports from people at the demo of slight off axis blooming and banding on grey screens. The 75" has a chance at $6500 because OLED is a ways off from competing at that size, but you will have Hisense, Vizio and others using regular FALD that will get close enough to both OLED and BMD for half the price. In the end, all this is just a temporary solution until QLED is viable or OLED finally sorts out it yield problem.
Agreed for the most part. I just don't see how QLED can make it so soon, it's really still in early development and has 1 tiny prototype, plus there are issues with Blue QD's that haven't been resolved. I don't see QLED making it before 2025-ish. It will come out one day and likely surpass all, but in the immediate future I think OLED is the best shot emissive tech has. We need more manufacturers to get involved in, and they are but all are buying LG panels at the moment. No one else besides LG from Korea or Japan is apparently going to get involved so I think the next one to get into OLED TV panels will come from China.
Vader1 is offline  
post #153 of 1951 Old 07-21-2016, 10:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,611
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1009 Post(s)
Liked: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Me, for bright room performance (VE Shootout), more noticeable HDR (explained in the AV Forums podcast), motion handling (24p performance in the RTings website), lack of crushing blacks due to hyper compressed content on 5mbs streams (well known issue).
Motion? You do realize motion is not at all something LCD is inherently or essentially better at? It's taken 15 years for motion on LCD to get to this point and only Sony really pulls off the truly great motion for LCD, and only on their most expensive sets. LG's OLED's have never been anywhere near as bad as LCD's were for years and many low to mid range LCD's still are today.

In fact if you compare an LCD to an OLED with equal refresh rates and no BFI for either the OLED would have inherently better motion because it has the fastest pixel response of any display technology ever. On top of that compare an x940c with it's higher refresh rate and better motion processing to an LG OLED and some people are actually still more sensitive to motion irregularities caused by the slow pixel response of LCD than they are to the lower refresh rate of the OLED although it will usually be a minority and I myself am not one of those people, but they do exist. Motion is probably the most subjective aspect of pq though and different people have different sensitivities to different things. For the majority, including myself, the Sony does have better motion than the current LG OLED's but at some point OLED will get bump to 240hz and than we shall see what happens.

Now the best would be an OLED made by Sony with their motion processing. That would kill just about every tv ever made.
Vader1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #154 of 1951 Old 07-21-2016, 10:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1786 Post(s)
Liked: 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Hisense was going to go DolbyVision according to this pic from CES 2016, but decided to wait another year for more content. I think in the long run DV will "win" deep pockets and all. Plus, most consumers just want it to work. No tweaking, nothing.
Until they actually release a product with Dolby Vision, the point stands. Maybe they'll do it in 2017, maybe they'll decide it's not worth it or wait another year.

HDR10 is just as 'plug and play' as DV - you don't have to tweak anything for it to work properly.
TuteTibiImperes is offline  
post #155 of 1951 Old 07-21-2016, 10:21 PM
 
sytech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,567
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2104 Post(s)
Liked: 1521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader1 View Post
Agreed for the most part. I just don't see how QLED can make it so soon, it's really still in early development and has 1 tiny prototype, plus there are issues with Blue QD's that haven't been resolved. I don't see QLED making it before 2025-ish. It will come out one day and likely surpass all, but in the immediate future I think OLED is the best shot emissive tech has. We need more manufacturers to get involved in, and they are but all are buying LG panels at the moment. No one else besides LG from Korea or Japan is apparently going to get involved so I think the next one to get into OLED TV panels will come from China.
Because of this breakthrough at ORNL and the fact the QLEDs are relatively simple structures. No backlight, no filters, no need for white pixels like OLED. Should not have the manufacturing yield problems of OLED. They can use existing LCD production facilities with minor modifications. I am sure there will be a few surprises along the way, but IMO this is the tech that looks the most promising.


http://ceramics.org/ceramic-tech-tod...e-quantum-dots
King Richard likes this.
sytech is offline  
post #156 of 1951 Old 07-21-2016, 10:32 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ray0414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 17,082
Mentioned: 266 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12877 Post(s)
Liked: 12246
Robert Zohn answers common questions about Z9D with what hes been told from Sony


Robert posted this just a few hours over at bluray.com

"1.......Q) # of local dimming zones and total amount of LEDs?

.........A) Talking about number of zones doesn’t make sense with this TV—there are
.........no zones because every LED is controlled individually. Sony will not disclose how many individual LEDs are being
.........used, but there are a lot of them, likely in the thousands.

.........Also worth noting, The Backlight Master Drive system is not just about the high
.........density of LEDs. However, it is also important that these LED’s are precisely controlled.
.........This is powered by Sony's new 4K HDR Processor X1 Extreme. I've been told this new
.........processor has the firepower to handle the demands of Sony's new Backlight Master
.........Drive system to precisely control each individual LED.

2.......Q) VA or IPS panel?

.........A) The Z9D employees a VA panel similar to the X930D/X940D

3.......Q) Peak luminance in HDR mode?

.........A) Sony will not disclose the Peak or MLL, however, they have shared with me that the
.........peak luminance is much higher than any other HDR TV on the market. I'll be
.........measuring MLL and Peak lumens and report back here my findings.

4.......Q) % of P3?

.........A) Sony does not disclose the % of P3 on consumer TVs.
.........In fact, consumer TVs just list the color space at one
.........brightness point which does not accurate describe a HDR
.........TV’s color volume. Again, I'll be measuring the % or P3 at
.........all luminance levels to test for color fidelity at all luminance
.........levels and to accurately measure the average % of P3 at
.........all levels of brightness."

82Q90R*75Q9FN(RIP)*55C8OLED*Galaxy Note10+*Ub820 fed into Oppo 203*XB1X*4k DenonX4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
ray0414 is offline  
post #157 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 01:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cleveland,Ohio
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2990 Post(s)
Liked: 2837
ray0414 from a seller point he will talk beautiful about all displays,but Robert is been a fan of emissive display for many years. No is not the reason why emissive has won in the shootouts.The Sharp Elite won in 2011.I have no doubt that the Z9D is a great display but I have doubts that they fixed the bloom/halos ,specially when displaying HDR.



Some people think that Qled is very far from be a product but that prototype Qled display was made years ago. IMO Qled will definitely be a game changer.


Can't wait to see digitalfernsehende testing the Z9D.I really hope that they prove me wrong.


I went thru 6 displays after selling my VT60's.I was looking for the same dark environment performance ,I didn't want the Oled do to the vignetting but now it has been fixed so I ended pulling the trigger on the Oled.I went down in size from a 75" vizio P series to the 65" oled and bought a 50" Vizio P series.


PS.Sorry for the long boring story and the bad orthography ,English isn't my first language.
pcp7 likes this.
losservatore is offline  
post #158 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 04:36 AM
Member
 
scei159's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 158
scei159 is offline  
post #159 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 04:37 AM
mnc
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mnc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dallas, GA
Posts: 2,970
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 925 Post(s)
Liked: 659
Sony still hasn't announced a UHD player?
mnc is offline  
post #160 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 04:37 AM
Member
 
scei159's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Sony still hasn't announced a UHD player?
Maybe PS4K or Neo.
tjcinnamon and King Richard like this.
scei159 is offline  
post #161 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 05:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cleveland,Ohio
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2990 Post(s)
Liked: 2837
Quote:
Originally Posted by scei159 View Post



Thank you for the digitalfernsehende video ,this was problaby uploaded today because I didn't saw it earlier.


I can't wait to see their review.

Last edited by losservatore; 07-22-2016 at 05:16 AM.
losservatore is offline  
post #162 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 05:25 AM
Senior Member
 
OneStepAhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 484
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 402 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy701 View Post
Looks like a lot of untested new technology to produce picture quality that is *nearly* as good as OLED HDR at least in terms of black level but not quite 100%. Given the similar price point, I would rather pay for the real McCoy. The LG E6 65" can now be had for $5,000. The only Sony products I would buy today are their awesome cameras.

Great write-up, Scott, as always.

Wolfy
Still limited to 65" , mediocre motion handling, and low brightness levels. I own OLEDs and a FALD and both have their pros and cons. I already own a 2016 OLED, but I'll still buy a ZD9 for the size and likely far superior HDR performance. If the later doesn't come true, then I may pass.

The same could be said in reverse, that OLED is trying to be "nearly" as good as LCD in brightness. Both blacks and brightness are important elements to contrast.
tjcinnamon and King Richard like this.
OneStepAhead is offline  
post #163 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 05:29 AM
Senior Member
 
OneStepAhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 484
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 402 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmack500 View Post
Aaaaggghh $10,000 for a 75"... I wonder how long before it comes down to about $7500 - $8000... tough pill to swallow.

I also wonder what version of HDMI it will have, and if it'll have Dolby Vision?
Probably by release.. VE already has it up for 9, and my guess is Cleveland Plasma will undercut them by a grand.. There is your 8k.

No Dolby Vision and I'm sure it will be 2.0a, what else could it be?
OneStepAhead is offline  
post #164 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 05:34 AM
Senior Member
 
OneStepAhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 484
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 402 Post(s)
Liked: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattopotamus View Post
such a good point. At these prices, why would anyone not just get OLED?
Not sure how we can make this comparison until the shootout. The answer is, you wouldn't get the OLED because the ZD9 is better, and I'm sure it will be in several categories, not to mention size. Remember only the 65 OLED is cheaper, the 75" Sony vs 77 OLED... Sony much cheaper.

Also, there isnt currently a flat 2016 OLED that doesn't have a soundbar and does 3D, which a small but vocal group is calling for.
King Richard likes this.
OneStepAhead is offline  
post #165 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 05:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Deja Vu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: great white north
Posts: 5,542
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1010 Post(s)
Liked: 1062
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Manufacturers try to make their sets look as good as possible out of the box. I think OOB is the best way to compare since most will not have their sets calibrated.

My main gripe is they chose the 850 for comparison instead of the 940.
Yes, why was that? Two reasons I can think of -- 1) they didn't want to embarrass the 940D in which they had just invested quite a bit of hype or 2) they didn't want to embarrass the ZD9 by comparing it with a T.V. that costs less and could hold its own.

I suspect one of the above is true and which ever one is true it is problematic for Sony.

Here's a video taken at the London event with some comments:


Last edited by Deja Vu; 07-22-2016 at 06:18 AM.
Deja Vu is offline  
post #166 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 06:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 5,498
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1899 Post(s)
Liked: 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Netflix has put out press releases saying they support both formats. I can view Marco Polo in HDR10 on my 940C. You have to be on the '4 Screen Plan' as well to receive HDR content, if you're account isn't set up that way, log in and upgrade.

Netflix has been very slow in releasing any HDR content. They have Marco Polo and a couple of awful Adam Sandler movies. Amazon has been much better about it - several full series plus a handful of movies and documentaries, and it's all available in HDR10.

Supposedly Netflix has an HDR master of Daredevil Season 2 (or at least part of it) that they were showing off back around the time of CES, and they've said they'll be doing Daredevil 2, Jessica Jones, and the other upcoming Marvel series (plus other stuff) in HDR, but who knows what their timetable is. They don't seem to be in any big rush.

I'm also eagerly awaiting Netflix to start doing physical UHD Blu-Ray discs by mail. Once they do that'll tip me over into buying something to play them.
I watched Marco Polo season 2 on my 940c and I'm almost certain it was showing HDR.
KidHorn is offline  
post #167 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 06:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 5,498
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1899 Post(s)
Liked: 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
Well, I can't speak to the other technical points others have mentioned as negatives for OLEDs, but for me personally, I just don't find these blacks to be natural. I rarely encounter anything like this in day to day life; there is something about OLED that I find quite artificial - GRANTED - I've only ever seen demos in stores that seem to emphasize blacks - not watched just normal TV or a bluray, etc., so I could easily change my mind if I saw other than DEMO content.
Glad I'm not the only one to notice this. I've said since day 1 the blacks on OLED look great, but they don't look natural. I've also pointed out that OLEDs are great at showing pitch black, even when they're not supposed to. They're not good at showing high level detail in dark scenes because they intentionally crush blacks. LCDs will show shadow details where the OLED will just show pitch black.

I think OLEDs look better than LCDs overall and would have purchased one if they had one in 70"+ for under $10,000, but they're not perfect.
King Richard and pcp7 like this.
KidHorn is offline  
post #168 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 06:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
KidHorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Derwood, Maryland
Posts: 5,498
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1899 Post(s)
Liked: 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
At the price point of the 930D I'm wiling to live with the blooming ,now if I pay $7k for a 65" then I expect to not see blooming/halos.

Who doesn't want a manufacture to finally fix blooming and halos specially at that price point?
Blooming in a non issue on my 940c. The only time I see it is in credits and even then, it's barely noticeable. I would assume with the ZD9, it's even less of an issue.
bruceames and King Richard like this.
KidHorn is offline  
post #169 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 07:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Jonas2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: South Bay Area
Posts: 6,166
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3027 Post(s)
Liked: 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Sony still hasn't announced a UHD player?
A Sony salesrep at a local event I attended last night stated that Sony is passing on a UHD player, at least for this year. This contradicted a statement by a different Sony rep. at a different event two months back that indicated Sony would be releasing one this year. Only the Sony Kahunas know.....
Jonas2 is offline  
post #170 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 08:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tjcinnamon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,293
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2025 Post(s)
Liked: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader1 View Post
Motion? You do realize motion is not at all something LCD is inherently or essentially better at? It's taken 15 years for motion on LCD to get to this point and only Sony really pulls off the truly great motion for LCD, and only on their most expensive sets. LG's OLED's have never been anywhere near as bad as LCD's were for years and many low to mid range LCD's still are today.

In fact if you compare an LCD to an OLED with equal refresh rates and no BFI for either the OLED would have inherently better motion because it has the fastest pixel response of any display technology ever. On top of that compare an x940c with it's higher refresh rate and better motion processing to an LG OLED and some people are actually still more sensitive to motion irregularities caused by the slow pixel response of LCD than they are to the lower refresh rate of the OLED although it will usually be a minority and I myself am not one of those people, but they do exist. Motion is probably the most subjective aspect of pq though and different people have different sensitivities to different things. For the majority, including myself, the Sony does have better motion than the current LG OLED's but at some point OLED will get bump to 240hz and than we shall see what happens.

Now the best would be an OLED made by Sony with their motion processing. That would kill just about every tv ever made.
Sure, but they do have BFI and Sony does have the processing so it does have better motion.

I agree that if Sony made an OLED (a touch brighter) that it would be better than the Z9D and I'd buy it. If there is some fatal flaw with this set, I very well could be getting an LG OLED. In the rumor thread I started (first post), I explained how I'd made up my mind on OLED but needed to wait to buy to finish my basement. How I found out about the Z9D was through a Sony rep while looking at an OLED.

The OLED is a great set, but this is a set for me that needs to last about 6 to 7 years so it needs to handle HDR as best as possible.
dnoonie likes this.
tjcinnamon is online now  
post #171 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 08:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tjcinnamon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,293
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2025 Post(s)
Liked: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Robert Zohn answers common questions about Z9D with what hes been told from Sony


Robert posted this just a few hours over at bluray.com

"1.......Q) # of local dimming zones and total amount of LEDs?

.........A) Talking about number of zones doesn’t make sense with this TV—there are
.........no zones because every LED is controlled individually. Sony will not disclose how many individual LEDs are being
.........used, but there are a lot of them, likely in the thousands.

.........Also worth noting, The Backlight Master Drive system is not just about the high
.........density of LEDs. However, it is also important that these LED’s are precisely controlled.
.........This is powered by Sony's new 4K HDR Processor X1 Extreme. I've been told this new
.........processor has the firepower to handle the demands of Sony's new Backlight Master
.........Drive system to precisely control each individual LED.

2.......Q) VA or IPS panel?

.........A) The Z9D employees a VA panel similar to the X930D/X940D

3.......Q) Peak luminance in HDR mode?

.........A) Sony will not disclose the Peak or MLL, however, they have shared with me that the
.........peak luminance is much higher than any other HDR TV on the market. I'll be
.........measuring MLL and Peak lumens and report back here my findings.

4.......Q) % of P3?

.........A) Sony does not disclose the % of P3 on consumer TVs.
.........In fact, consumer TVs just list the color space at one
.........brightness point which does not accurate describe a HDR
.........TV’s color volume. Again, I'll be measuring the % or P3 at
.........all luminance levels to test for color fidelity at all luminance
.........levels and to accurately measure the average % of P3 at
.........all levels of brightness."
could we get this Stickied near the top of the thread?
tjcinnamon is online now  
post #172 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 08:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tjcinnamon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,293
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2025 Post(s)
Liked: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Some people think that Qled is very far from be a product but that prototype Qled display was made years ago. IMO Qled will definitely be a game changer.
Forgive my ignorance, what makes QLED so different than individually controlled LEDs? Is it because it's a pixel by pixel control, with purer color, higher brightness, with LCDish (after established pricing)?
tjcinnamon is online now  
post #173 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 08:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Chronoptimist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
In fact, the OLED had a somewhat different color cast then the LCDs on all content, leaning toward teal/green compared with the other two.
That's what happens when you have a WRGB display and your white subpixel isn't D65.
It always surprised me that so many people - even reviewers/professional calibrators - weren't bothered by this.
LG's OLEDs have this ugly teal/green cast when displaying certain images that I don't like at all.

OLEDs are exciting stuff and they have a lot of potential, but I think it's a mistake to discount LCD yet.
They're still superior to OLED in several ways - just not black level, viewing angle, or response times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post
This guy that went to the demo is claiming minor off axis blooming and banding on a solid grey screen. He is not the only one either. One of the more professional reviews makes mention of off axis blooming. Again, very very minor blooming that may not be an issue to most.
You're not going to have a local dimming LCD without that problem.

When you view an LCD off-axis, the contrast ratio drops.
When you view LED zones off-axis, their brightness is relatively static.

So when you view an LCD using LED zones off-axis, the zone structure becomes much more apparent the further you get off-axis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
It's been said many times on AVS, but it bears repeating: You can't tell anything useful from a photo of the image on a TV, especially an HDR image, so there's no point drawing any conclusions whatsoever from them. For example, there are many different reasons why an image on a TV might look like it's blooming in a photo that have nothing to do with the TV itself, and viewing the same image on that TV in person, you might not see much blooming at all. I didn't specifically look for off-axis blooming in the Z9D at yesterday's press conference, but I did not notice much if any blooming in the images I saw.
I wouldn't say that you can't tell anything useful from photographs. A camera can be a useful tool in comparing/evaluating displays if you know what you're doing.
However you're correct that no-one should be judging the quality of a display based on images like these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oledtech View Post
Knowing Sony, FALD will 99.9% not work in gamemode. When it works, input lag will be sky-high.
And it looks to be another VA panel, so not revolutionary for LCD.
Is that something which has changed in recent models? My old HX900 still uses FALD in game mode, however it is not the "full" FALD.
In game mode it no longer switches zones off entirely, and zones lag a frame or so behind the LCD panel rather than delaying the LCD image to keep them in sync.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
Thing I don't get with all these innovations to FALD, is why on earth did no one patent simply using two LCDs, one in front of the other, before now?

Apple only patented that idea TWO WEEKS ago. (to HDR-ify their iphones and possibly upcoming VR helmets). I thought of it too after people on AVS mentioned dual DLPs placed in serial to reach the square of the contrast ratio of each DMD (so, 4M:1 instead of 2000:1).
Sharp had a prototype display using this concept back in 2005. I can't understand how Apple managed to patent this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2005/10/03/sharp_mega_contrast/1
While Sharp's claim of 1,000,000:1 is indeed impressive, the display has a peak luminance of just 500 cd/m².
In order to hit the magic million-to-one contrast ratio, their engineers have simply reduced the minimum luminance to 0.0005 cd/m²

No local dimming or other trickery. Engadget gallery from 2007
Unfortunately I don't believe it ever went into production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
For projectors the use of lasers seems like it could be the better way to go - if you have a three laser (red, green, and blue) projector that can shine the light only on the mirrors that should be lit, while skipping the beams over the mirrors than should be black, wouldn't that create true blacks combined with very bright brights and great color spectrum from the extra-pure primaries?
Scanning laser displays have a lot of problems. I would honestly be surprised if they ever become viable as a high-end mainstream technology. (yes, I know there are low-res scanning laser pico projectors)
You're more likely to see lasers used to replace traditional light sources rather than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader1 View Post
Motion? You do realize motion is not at all something LCD is inherently or essentially better at? It's taken 15 years for motion on LCD to get to this point and only Sony really pulls off the truly great motion for LCD, and only on their most expensive sets. LG's OLED's have never been anywhere near as bad as LCD's were for years and many low to mid range LCD's still are today.

In fact if you compare an LCD to an OLED with equal refresh rates and no BFI for either the OLED would have inherently better motion because it has the fastest pixel response of any display technology ever.
Image persistence is the primary cause of motion blur on displays.
When you take image persistence out of the equation, yes, pixel response time wins.
However when you factor in image persistence, pixel response time hardly matters at all.
When comparing like-for-like, the OLED's response times do result in less image ghosting/streaking.
However reducing image persistence has a far bigger impact on motion blur.
Yes, there are after-images caused by the LCD's high response times, which would ideally not be there, but motion blur is significantly lower overall.
So while better response times are always appreciated, they (mostly) don't matter if it comes with increased image persistence.

Of course there are many types of content where you cannot reduce image persistence.
You can't use backlight scanning with films because they're 24 FPS and no-one is going to produce a display that strobes at 24Hz.
You can combine strobing with interpolation, but videophiles won't accept that. So for films, you need to have a full-persistence display.
Chronoptimist is offline  
post #174 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 08:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,611
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1009 Post(s)
Liked: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Sure, but they do have BFI and Sony does have the processing so it does have better motion.

I agree that if Sony made an OLED (a touch brighter) that it would be better than the Z9D and I'd buy it. If there is some fatal flaw with this set, I very well could be getting an LG OLED. In the rumor thread I started (first post), I explained how I'd made up my mind on OLED but needed to wait to buy to finish my basement. How I found out about the Z9D was through a Sony rep while looking at an OLED.

The OLED is a great set, but this is a set for me that needs to last about 6 to 7 years so it needs to handle HDR as best as possible.
Fair enough. I've said many times myself that the x940c was the first LCD I ever thought about buying (I've never seen the legendary Sharp Elite so cannot speak for it) and its impressive how Sony has improved LCD in recent years, and turned themselves around compared to where they were a few years ago. I haven't seen the x940d but I will want to check this thing out when it gets here. I am still more interested in OLED, I would like to see LG bump up the refresh rate to 240hz next year it's about time
Vader1 is offline  
post #175 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 08:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,611
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1009 Post(s)
Liked: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post
That's what happens when you have a WRGB display and your white subpixel isn't D65.
It always surprised me that so many people - even reviewers/professional calibrators - weren't bothered by this.
LG's OLEDs have this ugly teal/green cast when displaying certain images that I don't like at all.

OLEDs are exciting stuff and they have a lot of potential, but I think it's a mistake to discount LCD yet.
They're still superior to OLED in several ways - just not black level, viewing angle, or response times.

You're not going to have a local dimming LCD without that problem.

When you view an LCD off-axis, the contrast ratio drops.
When you view LED zones off-axis, their brightness is relatively static.

So when you view an LCD using LED zones off-axis, the zone structure becomes much more apparent the further you get off-axis.

I wouldn't say that you can't tell anything useful from photographs. A camera can be a useful tool in comparing/evaluating displays if you know what you're doing.
However you're correct that no-one should be judging the quality of a display based on images like these.

Is that something which has changed in recent models? My old HX900 still uses FALD in game mode, however it is not the "full" FALD.
In game mode it no longer switches zones off entirely, and zones lag a frame or so behind the LCD panel rather than delaying the LCD image to keep them in sync.

Sharp had a prototype display using this concept back in 2005. I can't understand how Apple managed to patent this.




No local dimming or other trickery. Engadget gallery from 2007
Unfortunately I don't believe it ever went into production.

Scanning laser displays have a lot of problems. I would honestly be surprised if they ever become viable as a high-end mainstream technology. (yes, I know there are low-res scanning laser pico projectors)
You're more likely to see lasers used to replace traditional light sources rather than anything else.

Image persistence is the primary cause of motion blur on displays.
When you take image persistence out of the equation, yes, pixel response time wins.
However when you factor in image persistence, pixel response time hardly matters at all.
When comparing like-for-like, the OLED's response times do result in less image ghosting/streaking.
However reducing image persistence has a far bigger impact on motion blur.
Yes, there are after-images caused by the LCD's high response times, which would ideally not be there, but motion blur is significantly lower overall.
So while better response times are always appreciated, they (mostly) don't matter if it comes with increased image persistence.

Of course there are many types of content where you cannot reduce image persistence.
You can't use backlight scanning with films because they're 24 FPS and no-one is going to produce a display that strobes at 24Hz.
You can combine strobing with interpolation, but videophiles won't accept that. So for films, you need to have a full-persistence display.
I agree with everything you just said, just wanted to point out that LCD does not have inherently better motion and I find it strange that it's been touted as one of it's benefits against OLED when it isn't and it's juts because it's had more development at this point and higher refresh rate. It shouldn't (hopefully) stay that way forever
pcp7 likes this.
Vader1 is offline  
post #176 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 09:26 AM
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 166
Got some pricing for the Sony Z9D series for Canada.........It's not good. LOL. 12000 for the 75 and 8500 for the 65. That is retail pricing but you could probably get them for 10 to 15% discount.

I guess Sony has decided that it doesn't really want to sell TV's after all. I can get the 940D for about half the price of the Z9D, so I'm not really sure that the Z9D would be that much better to warrant it's price. At least you guys who got the 940D, don't need to feel so bad now

I really don't see how they expect people to buy the Z9D over an OLED when the OLED can be had much cheaper in the 65" lineup. I was shocked how low the B6 and C6 65" series are going for from places like Cleveland Plasma.

I also recently had to check out the 940D in person and was really shocked by how bad the motion was. It has obvious color smearing, and researching it I found that it has an abysmal 44ms response time when transitioning from black to white or vice versa. Knowing that the Z9D has the same panel as the 940D has eliminated it from my consideration. Sure, the VA panel's Sony uses have great native contrast, but they are also the slowest in response time. OLED response time is about 0ms.

Also, a big reason that the OLED shows more judder is because of it's 0ms response time. I've been testing my OLED against my JS9500 and basically what is happening is that the JS9500, (which has better pixel refresh and almost no trailing when compared to the Sony) is smearing during the panning, essentially masking judder with smearing (slow pixel response). judder stands out more on the OLED because it has 0 smearing and the judder is much more pronounced. It's also a reason why Plasma also had more judder then LCD, and it also was naturally low persistence as well which made judder even worse then OLED.

Playing around with the motion settings with the OLED has yielded much better results for motion then any LCD I've seen or owned. Motion looks great when you use a setting of dejudder at 2 and deblur at 10 and you don't get any SOA. If you set dejudder to 3, it's even smoother but you get slight SOA.

with all motion settings off however, the OLED does judder a lot, but just changing a few settings and you get no SOA, much reduced judder, and around 600 to 800 lines of moving resolution and 0ms response time for smear free picture.

I still for the life of me can't understand how people do not see smearing on the Sony? It can produce smearing that leaves a trail that is almost half the screen in length? Put any dark color over a white background and there it is.
pcp7 likes this.
conan481 is offline  
post #177 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 09:36 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
Industry Insider
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 25,699
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7282 Post(s)
Liked: 7317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Unless LG and/or Dolby pay Netflix more to not support HDR10 than Netflix could get in extra revenue by supporting it, I can't see why they would want to abandon HDR10 support.

Unless of course they had a shootout and have concluded DV is better...
In either case Sony and Samsung do not do DV and that is big, they sell a lot of TV's. To just not ignore those owners would be stupid. You will probably see most supporting both forms of HDR. A few movies may come out only using one or the other, we will see......
Cleveland Plasma is online now  
post #178 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 09:57 AM
Senior Member
 
destroyer2usa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked: 141
I have just read a secret rumour on a French Forum from a well respected and informed contributor that Sony is in secret talks with Dolby about DV and if things pan out a announcement is expected to be made at IFA beginning of september.


If that rumour is true perhaps afterwards all of a sudden a DV sticker gets slapped on the Z9D?
tjcinnamon likes this.

Last edited by destroyer2usa; 07-22-2016 at 10:08 AM.
destroyer2usa is offline  
post #179 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 10:14 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Stereodude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 15,377
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4358 Post(s)
Liked: 3102
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan481 View Post
... and researching it I found that it has an abysmal 44ms response time when transitioning from black to white or vice versa.
You have a link for that? There's no modern LCD technology that has that bad of response times. They're all better than 25ms Ton+Toff. GtG isn't the strong point of VA, but that's not what you mentioned.
Stereodude is offline  
post #180 of 1951 Old 07-22-2016, 10:16 AM
Member
 
peplogic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan481 View Post
Got some pricing for the Sony Z9D series for Canada.........It's not good. LOL. 12000 for the 75 and 8500 for the 65. That is retail pricing but you could probably get them for 10 to 15% discount.

I guess Sony has decided that it doesn't really want to sell TV's after all. I can get the 940D for about half the price of the Z9D, so I'm not really sure that the Z9D would be that much better to warrant it's price. At least you guys who got the 940D, don't need to feel so bad now

I really don't see how they expect people to buy the Z9D over an OLED when the OLED can be had much cheaper in the 65" lineup. I was shocked how low the B6 and C6 65" series are going for from places like Cleveland Plasma.

I also recently had to check out the 940D in person and was really shocked by how bad the motion was. It has obvious color smearing, and researching it I found that it has an abysmal 44ms response time when transitioning from black to white or vice versa. Knowing that the Z9D has the same panel as the 940D has eliminated it from my consideration. Sure, the VA panel's Sony uses have great native contrast, but they are also the slowest in response time. OLED response time is about 0ms.

Also, a big reason that the OLED shows more judder is because of it's 0ms response time. I've been testing my OLED against my JS9500 and basically what is happening is that the JS9500, (which has better pixel refresh and almost no trailing when compared to the Sony) is smearing during the panning, essentially masking judder with smearing (slow pixel response). judder stands out more on the OLED because it has 0 smearing and the judder is much more pronounced. It's also a reason why Plasma also had more judder then LCD, and it also was naturally low persistence as well which made judder even worse then OLED.

Playing around with the motion settings with the OLED has yielded much better results for motion then any LCD I've seen or owned. Motion looks great when you use a setting of dejudder at 2 and deblur at 10 and you don't get any SOA. If you set dejudder to 3, it's even smoother but you get slight SOA.

with all motion settings off however, the OLED does judder a lot, but just changing a few settings and you get no SOA, much reduced judder, and around 600 to 800 lines of moving resolution and 0ms response time for smear free picture.

I still for the life of me can't understand how people do not see smearing on the Sony? It can produce smearing that leaves a trail that is almost half the screen in length? Put any dark color over a white background and there it is.
O ms is physically impossible

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
peplogic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

Tags
backlight master drive , hdr , Sony , wcg , z9d

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off