Vizio P-series(2016 model) for use as a PC monitor and for gaming - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 436 Old 09-15-2016, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Hiredgoon View Post
I am currently gaming at 65ms on this tv playing DOOM etc online. Its not noticeable at 65ms. If you were to get 90ms and above, then its terrible.
If you want to experiment, try a pinball game like Pinball FX2 on XB1/PC, called Zen Pinball 2 on PS4. With the 65ms lag you are used to, hold the triggers to trap the ball with the flippers, pick a spot on the table and try to hit that target with the ball. Do this a couple times. Then switch your setup to HDMI 5 game mode (1080p under 20ms lag) and do the same.

It should be very noticeable. If you don't feel the difference, more power to you.
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post #122 of 436 Old 09-15-2016, 09:38 AM
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According to the latest rtings numbers, 1080p @ 60Hz Outside Game Mode (ie HDMI-1 gaming) is 112.4 ms?

This is how I've been playing online and haven't noticed any performance issues compared to a plasma it replaced.

I have dual outputs going to my P65, I just never use HDMI-5. I think I might start
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post #123 of 436 Old 09-15-2016, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by beerninja View Post
Actually you're gaming at about 19ms right now if you're playing Doom with port5. Doom is not an HDR game.
I know its not an HDR game. Rtings tested a 4k HDR source with the same settings and arrived at 63ms.

I use HDMI 1 (never hdmi5) sometime game at SDR content GLL Off ALED On = 113.0ms and its noticeable at that point.

20ms to 63ms is not really noticeable.

If you really want 20ms HDR gaming, buy the KS8500 or pray that Vizio releases a software update to HDMI 5. (possible, as its a hybrid 1.4/2.0 HDMI port)
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post #124 of 436 Old 09-15-2016, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Hiredgoon View Post
I know its not an HDR game. Rtings tested a 4k HDR source with the same settings and arrived at 63ms.

I sometime game at SDR content GLL Off ALED On = 113.0ms and its noticeable at that point.

20ms to 63ms is not really noticeable.
@Hiredgoon - what is your gaming source (console or PC), and what games are you playing?

The displaylag testing site has four categories of display lag - Excellent, Great, Okay, and Bad. Excellent is under 20ms, and Bad is 63ms and above.

Source: http://www.displaylag.com/testing-method/
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post #125 of 436 Old 09-15-2016, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
@Hiredgoon - what is your gaming source (console or PC), and what games are you playing?

The displaylag testing site has four categories of display lag - Excellent, Great, Okay, and Bad. Excellent is under 20ms, and Bad is 63ms and above.

Source: http://www.displaylag.com/testing-method/
Using Xbox One S, HDMI 1. The difference is 113 ms or 38 ms with toggling GLL. I usually never turn on GLL mode as i forget, but jumping from 20 ms to 113 ms is noticeable, but not unplayable.
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post #126 of 436 Old 09-15-2016, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Hiredgoon View Post
Using Xbox One S, HDMI 1. The difference is 113 ms or 38 ms with toggling GLL. I usually never turn on GLL mode as i forget, but jumping from 20 ms to 113 ms is noticeable, but not unplayable.

That's because your jumping from 38 ms to 113 ms ish. Noticeable yes, unplayable no.

Anyway, I said enough about it. I'll have an HDR game within a month and ill update with real tested results
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post #127 of 436 Old 09-16-2016, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
If you want to experiment, try a pinball game like Pinball FX2 on XB1/PC, called Zen Pinball 2 on PS4. With the 65ms lag you are used to, hold the triggers to trap the ball with the flippers, pick a spot on the table and try to hit that target with the ball. Do this a couple times. Then switch your setup to HDMI 5 game mode (1080p under 20ms lag) and do the same.

It should be very noticeable. If you don't feel the difference, more power to you.
I noticed it with SFV. Coming from a plasma where I dunno what the lag was, then to HDMI5 with GLL on, it was like the punch started at the exact moment I pressed the button. I have since moved my PS4 to HDMI4 with GLL and find its fine and only a light difference.

I don't use Clear Action on my gaming inputs. I did turn it on for my Roku input (HDMI2) because I was seeing some judder with PS Vue (Disney JR. stuff) and when I turned it on it smoothed it out and makes it look real nice. I tried to figure out what Clear Action actually was. The one thing I found was that it inserted a black frame in the interpolation, which causes it to be a bit darker and also I think could be perceived as strobeing (the leds off during the black frame then on again). From where I sit I haven't seen anything strobeing and its been on for a while.

To get back to gaming, I guess I just kind of adapt to the lag. I know that some need it to be as close as possible, but for what I play it seems its not as big of a deal. I have a LG HDR TV int he bedroom (although I don't think its "true" HDR) and I will compare FH3 between it and the Vizio to see if it feels or looks different.
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post #128 of 436 Old 09-16-2016, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Character_Zero View Post
I don't use Clear Action on my gaming inputs.
I've experimented with Clear Action on the P50-c1 (60Hz panel). With scenes that have a lot of white, the backlight strobing is apparent and annoying to me, but it's not as noticeable in most usual game scenes. It does dim the display a bit, but upping the backlight level can help that out.

It's mainly to prevent blurring of fast action. If you have a PC connected to your Vizio, head here and watch the 60fps flying saucer as you toggle Clear Action on and off:
http://www.testufo.com/#test=framera...d=none&pps=960

I tried to see if I could get used to Clear Action while playing games, but stopped using it when I noticed while moving and turning (panning) slowly -- some details would double. Turning Clear Action off fixed this issue. The blurring in fast action doesn't bother me - maybe I'm used to it?
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post #129 of 436 Old 09-16-2016, 09:52 AM
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I think all agree that above 100ms it does become problematic depending on the game.
I also think that most agree that from 20 to 60ms, yes it is noticeable in fast reflex based games BUT it is FAR from unplayable. Some people really need to rethink what that word means!

Thing is, some are flipping out over 40ms of extra lag and for almost any game I have played, the issues of network hiccups, inconsistant frame rate, quality of your mouse/controller all add up to way more error/misses that input lag under 100ms ever could!

I mean at 60 frames per second, 60ms of lag is roughly 3 frames. I don't know about you guys, but my frame rate EASILY fluctuates here and there way more than 3 frames per second!

And if you truly are that high level of a player, you play competitevely (not pro, just for "fun") then maybe it is truly an issue for YOU personally, then damn it this TV IS NOT FOR YOU, move on!

But let's keep in mind that until we have 3 seperate sources that can provide repeatable tests for gaming lag with proper HDR, then all of this is silly speculation!
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post #130 of 436 Old 09-16-2016, 12:26 PM
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Can anyone confirm if the xbox one s hdmi cable that comes in the box is a High speed 2.0 cable? I cant get hdr to work on my p65.
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post #131 of 436 Old 09-16-2016, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nadrojcote View Post
Can anyone confirm if the xbox one s hdmi cable that comes in the box is a High speed 2.0 cable? I cant get hdr to work on my p65.
Yes it does. But you have to be using HDMI 1-4. And you have to turn on HDMI sub-sampling for the port you are using.
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post #132 of 436 Old 09-16-2016, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by nadrojcote View Post
Can anyone confirm if the xbox one s hdmi cable that comes in the box is a High speed 2.0 cable? I cant get hdr to work on my p65.
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Yes it does. But you have to be using HDMI 1-4. And you have to turn on HDMI sub-sampling for the port you are using.
... and, at the moment, HDR only works for movie discs via the Xbox One Slim.

The Netflix app is borked on XB1-S and will not work properly with HDR on. And, as of this post, no HDR games are available.
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post #133 of 436 Old 09-18-2016, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry I haven't been around much guys. I know I should be checking in and getting more info to add to the stickys. I've been really upset about this TV. So much so that it's kept me away from the forums. Light started coming in around the time of my last post, and it's a considerable amount. It goes away with ALED enabled of course, but I'm using game mode typically so it's a problem. I do of course put ALED on when watching movies. I also started having this weird thing with my PC where videos have a bright white line on the right edge of the screen. It's thin, but it adds light bloom to the right side. It seemed to start happening out of nowhere, but luckily it doesn't come up in any games(except for their menus) and it doesn't show in KODI or on VLC player. It will come up with videos in full screen on sites like youtube. It also shows in PLEX which REALLY sucks, so I guess it happens typically with videos in a browser.

Sorry again.

*update* according to rtings, the input lag difference with ALED is .6ms which is negligible I don't know how I didn't realize this, with so much attention paid to this TV's input lag. Anyone know why someone wouldn't keep ALED on??

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post #134 of 436 Old 09-18-2016, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Friendlys View Post
If you purchase a receiver with dual outputs you could have the best of both worlds. Hdmi 1 for movies and Hdmi 5 for games...
I just purchased my first AVR(a denon) that has dual outputs. 1 for ARC and 1 regular I guess you'd call it. I'm new to AVRs and I don't know anything about ARC. Is this what you're referring to? If so, what are the advantages of using ARC?
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post #135 of 436 Old 09-18-2016, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ramsey415 View Post
The problem is AVR's add input lag. No one really tests them either, so no one really knows what the added lag is, or the extent to which you can minimize it with pass through or turning off video processing options, etc. etc. This is discussed sometimes on this forum, see e.g. here. I would assume that eliminating all processing (if you can do that) would reduce or eliminate added lag but you never know. So if you are using HDMI5 over HDMI1 to gain that extra frame of input lag, you could very well be losing it anyway if there is an AVR in the mix.

If you are truly chasing the lowest lag you can, and want one input to two outputs (e.g. an Xbox going into both HDMI1 and 5), use a splitter.

Personally, the single frame difference on HDMI 1 v 5 wouldn't bother me very much, and I would just feed everything directly to the TV and use an optical out either from the source or the TV...
I just ordered a Leo Bodnar to test the input lag with my DENON s920w on HDMI 5 with GLL enabled, and game mode for the input on the DENON. I can post my results here for you guys if you're interested.
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post #136 of 436 Old 09-18-2016, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
Hey @terablaze - some info for one of the Sticky posts: http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag
Thank you
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post #137 of 436 Old 09-18-2016, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, there's tradeoffs between different displays. Remember that the P-series has pretty awesome FALD. And other TVs, especially some of the Sonys, have worse lag then what's being reported on the Vizios.

~63ms of lag isn't great for quick action and crucial timing in gameplay, but some games don't really need much precision - I'm thinking of games like Mass Effect. Even Forza might be fairly playable with HDR on. Hopefully we will be able to toggle HDR off to get back to sub-40ms at 4K for games that require quick response time. If not, we can always forgo HDR and switch back to 1080p upscaled on input 5, which is super-precise, and to my eyes still looks pretty freaking awesome. Not the best solution, but the choice is there: pretty vs. fast response.

SPECULATION: I have a feeling that the Dolby Vision chip is to blame for the processing involved in converting to HDR10, and I'm doubtful there's anything that could be done with this. Unless either Vizio or Dolby can figure out how to do some sort of "game mode" for the DV chip to go into HDR10 without the extra processing the chip requires, but that seems like wishful thinking.

Fingers crossed for Vizio!!!!
Wait, am I to understand that 4k increases input lag, and those numbers at rtings are for input lag on 1080p only?
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post #138 of 436 Old 09-18-2016, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by terablaze View Post
Wait, am I to understand that 4k increases input lag, and those numbers at rtings are for input lag on 1080p only?
My understanding is the rtings testing uses a 1080p source, so the 4K findings involve upscaling.

For gaming, the three rtings columns that are important are the 1080p @ 60Hz, 4K @ 60Hz, and 4K @ 60Hz + HDR.
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post #139 of 436 Old 09-18-2016, 08:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
My understanding is the rtings testing uses a 1080p source, so the 4K findings involve upscaling.

For gaming, the three rtings columns that are important are the 1080p @ 60Hz, 4K @ 60Hz, and 4K @ 60Hz + HDR.
I found that additional input lag info on rtings you must be referring to, and added it to the sticky. Looks like 4k @ 60hz is only .1 ms higher than 1080. So that means that 4k is the source for that number no? Maybe I should post a question on rtings to verify?
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post #140 of 436 Old 09-19-2016, 07:24 AM
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So, I've been reading up on the P Series Vizio and the Samsung 8000 series for weeks and keep going back and forth.

It seems like it might be best at this point to see what comes out next spring and just keep using my 8 year old plasma for now -- does that seem advisable?


I like a lot of things about the P Series, but the gaming lag and just hoping and waiting for an update has me scared...

I'm currently gaming on a PS4 and XB1....I will be upgrading to the Xbox One S or Ps4 Pro (or maybe both) in the coming months.
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post #141 of 436 Old 09-19-2016, 07:52 AM
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I like a lot of things about the P Series, but the gaming lag and just hoping and waiting for an update has me scared...
The P-series gaming lag for current 1080p content is top of the class.

The main question is future HDR gaming - that is the unknown. There's no HDR games as of this post, and only one site that's tested HDR input lag, using 1080p upscaled to 4k injected with HDR metadata. We don't know how this will play out once HDR rolls out in the next couple weeks/months. Hopefully Vizio is following this and has plans and the ability to adjust to any bumps in the road with speedy updates.

If you can wait a couple months, more will be known re: HDR gaming, and which is the best TV for this emerging tech.
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post #142 of 436 Old 09-19-2016, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so the Leo Bodnar came today, and I have excellent news. My input lag results going directly into HDMI 5 were pretty much the same as going through the Denon s920w to HDMI 5: About 21ms - 22ms. The number was fluctuating but according to the manual that can happen. They recommended turning down ambient light, and cranking the brightness which I did, but I got the same result. Why I got this number? I do not know, since Rtings is now getting around 19 with the latest update I believe? If any one of you can shed some light on that, I'd appreciate it. Mind you I had picture mode set to game, with GLL enabled, Clear Action on, and ALED on. ALED on or off seemed to make no difference, which is strange because on Rtings there was a negligible increase. Another thing I found odd, was that testing the other inputs didn't have any fluctuations. Bottom line is, the numbers were pretty much the same with maybe a slight increase of less than 1ms. If there was an increase at all on the Denon, we're talking something like only .4ms! Of course the Denon was set for game mode on the input I was using. I've read something about "pass-through" or "direct pass-through" also making a difference in terms of input lag. In the video settings I found an option called "HDMI pass-through", and it was enabled by default so I left it alone. What you can take away from this is that the Denon s920w, and *probably* most AVRs that have these pass-through options, and probably most importantly, a game mode for eliminating any processing will give you no, or virtually no increase in input lag
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post #143 of 436 Old 09-19-2016, 08:12 PM
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Why I got this number? I do not know, since Rtings is now getting around 19 with the latest update I believe? If any one of you can shed some light on that, I'd appreciate it.
Not sure why your findings are a touch higher than Rtings, but keep in mind that ~16ms is a single frame of video in 60fps. So there's almost no difference between 19ms and 22ms - these are, for the most part, identical. I would suggest try retesting with Clear Action OFF - the backlight strobing might have something to do with the fluctuation.

Thanks for posting @terablaze ! Interesting info.
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post #144 of 436 Old 09-20-2016, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by terablaze View Post
Ok, so the Leo Bodnar came today, and I have excellent news. My input lag results going directly into HDMI 5 were pretty much the same as going through the Denon s920w to HDMI 5: About 21ms - 22ms
Can you also try HDMI 1. I have a s910 running to HDMI 1 and the lag is not noticeable to us.

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post #145 of 436 Old 09-20-2016, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you also try HDMI 1. I have a s910 running to HDMI 1 and the lag is not noticeable to us.
My findings proved that this Denon in game mode adds virtually no input lag, therefore whatever input lag you get on HDMI 1 will be the same with or without going through the Denon. The result will be higher than HDMI 5 of course, because HDMI 1-4 aren't low latency inputs like 5 is. I don't know if I tested HDMI 1 through the Denon in particular but, I did test a few other ports besides 5, and got the same result with the same picture settings I used to test 5. My number was a solid 39. Rtings lists the input lag for HDMI 1 on their site using those same settings as 38, so this sounds right since my readings seem to be slightly off by 1 or 2. I can go into HDMI 1 to test if you want, but I don't know why I'd get any number other than 39. Is there something different about HDMI 1 from 2,3, and 4 that might make a difference in the result?

*updated*: I tested for you anyway, and got the same number with HDMI 1, as I did with inputs 2,3 and 4.
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post #146 of 436 Old 09-20-2016, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DaverJ View Post
Not sure why your findings are a touch higher than Rtings, but keep in mind that ~16ms is a single frame of video in 60fps. So there's almost no difference between 19ms and 22ms - these are, for the most part, identical. I would suggest try retesting with Clear Action OFF - the backlight strobing might have something to do with the fluctuation.

Thanks for posting @terablaze ! Interesting info.
Oh, I did actually test with clear action off. Apparently clear action increases input lag 2-3 ms. I was surprised since Rtings doesn't seem to mention that anywhere. I could actually only see that difference on inputs 1-4, but I guess that's because 5 was fluctuating anyway. The amount of lag clear action adds is negligible to me, so I'll probably be keeping it on for gaming. You know what I find interesting? Some games seem to benefit from it, and some games seem to look worse. Maybe that has something to do with the game's own motion blur settings? I'll have to try that.

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post #147 of 436 Old 09-20-2016, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you also try HDMI 1. I have a s910 running to HDMI 1 and the lag is not noticeable to us.
I tested for you anyway, and got the same number with HDMI 1, as I did with inputs 2,3 and 4.
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post #148 of 436 Old 09-20-2016, 10:48 PM
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Just wanted to throw a post in here to track this thread. Hoping Vizio updates the P-Series to support HDR10 for the PS4/XB1 in the near future, going to be really disappointed if HDR-gaming is a no-go on this set...
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post #149 of 436 Old 09-21-2016, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew_B View Post
According to the latest rtings numbers, 1080p @ 60Hz Outside Game Mode (ie HDMI-1 gaming) is 112.4 ms?

This is how I've been playing online and haven't noticed any performance issues compared to a plasma it replaced.

I have dual outputs going to my P65, I just never use HDMI-5. I think I might start
Can't vouch for 1080P but at 4k it is outrageous and noticeable moving my cursor across the screen.
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post #150 of 436 Old 09-21-2016, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by terablaze View Post
Ok, so the Leo Bodnar came today, and I have excellent news. My input lag results going directly into HDMI 5 were pretty much the same as going through the Denon s920w to HDMI 5: About 21ms - 22ms. The number was fluctuating but according to the manual that can happen. They recommended turning down ambient light, and cranking the brightness which I did, but I got the same result. Why I got this number? I do not know, since Rtings is now getting around 19 with the latest update I believe? If any one of you can shed some light on that, I'd appreciate it. Mind you I had picture mode set to game, with GLL enabled, Clear Action on, and ALED on. ALED on or off seemed to make no difference, which is strange because on Rtings there was a negligible increase. Another thing I found odd, was that testing the other inputs didn't have any fluctuations. Bottom line is, the numbers were pretty much the same with maybe a slight increase of less than 1ms. If there was an increase at all on the Denon, we're talking something like only .4ms! Of course the Denon was set for game mode on the input I was using. I've read something about "pass-through" or "direct pass-through" also making a difference in terms of input lag. In the video settings I found an option called "HDMI pass-through", and it was enabled by default so I left it alone. What you can take away from this is that the Denon s920w, and *probably* most AVRs that have these pass-through options, and probably most importantly, a game mode for eliminating any processing will give you no, or virtually no increase in input lag
Are you using a PC? I'd be intrested in the input lag of using the GPU for scaling vs the display.
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