2017 Sony XBR 900E owners thread (No Price Talk) - Page 474 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14191 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 05:57 AM
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DirecTV and HDMI Ports 2/3

Just bought the 65" version -- love it. Don't like the limitations of Android, but my new Roku box seems to do the trick there. My question: if I get upgraded DirecTV equipment to support 4K HDR, will I need to use ports 2 or 3 for that? Right now I have the Roku and Xbox plugged into HDMI ports 2/3, and DirecTV in port 1. I don't know if DirecTV will support 60 fps 4K/HDR and I'd rather not get a new receiver to switch.

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post #14192 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
Just to be clear the 940D is the bigger and better model over the 930D same as the 940E and 930E, they are totally different technologies. Now the 65Z9D and the 75Z9D are real close to being the same overall, except one is bigger.
Why, as a Sony dealer, don't you post the details that make information really relevant?

You state that the 940D is the "better" model compared to the 930D and similar with the 940E/930D. There is exactly ONE functional difference between the 930 and 940 sets in each series (every other difference has to do with things like dimensions and weight) - the 930 is Edge Lit LED with Local Dimming and the 940 is Direct Lit LED with Local Dimming. While, admittedly, this is an important difference that will have a fair amount of impact on overall picture quality, the fact that the Direct Lit is on a larger panel than the Edge Lit also means that you aren't getting the full impact of the difference as compared to what the delta would be if the panels were the same size. Said another way - increasing panel size will take a little bit away from overall PQ but you get that back (and possibly a little more) with the use of Direct Lit backlighting instead of Edge Lit backlighting.

Are the 940 models "better" than the 930 models? Yes, on paper. In the real world, however, the difference may not be as distinctive because some of that PQ difference will depend on use and overall impact from the room and lighting within the room during use.

Here's some additional data on the 930/940 D and E series as well as the 900E... The "D" sets use the "4K Processor X1" and "4K X-Reality Pro" engine, the "E" series sets use the "4K HDR Processor X1 Extreme" and "4K X-Reality PRO Dual Database Processing" engine, and the 900E sets use the "4K HDR Processor X1" and "4K X-Reality PRO" engine. The 900E sets are also ALL Direct Lit backlighting with Local Dimming. In terms of just the panel, the 900E has the best capabilities through the entire family of sets. But, the "D" and "E" sets outperform because of the processing engines that they have for direct rendering of 4K/HDR content as well as upscaling.

Anyone can read the spec sheets and understand that two sets have differences. Many can learn what the differences mean in terms of the technology and the potential for differences in PQ. We all benefit when -details- are offered because it gives folks more information to work with and the ability to make better decisions.

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Touche! You forgot - "OLED is better."
And you forgot "OLED isn't any better" so we have both sides of the argument. lol
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post #14193 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie View Post
Just bought the 65" version -- love it. Don't like the limitations of Android, but my new Roku box seems to do the trick there. My question: if I get upgraded DirecTV equipment to support 4K HDR, will I need to use ports 2 or 3 for that? Right now I have the Roku and Xbox plugged into HDMI ports 2/3, and DirecTV in port 1. I don't know if DirecTV will support 60 fps 4K/HDR and I'd rather not get a new receiver to switch.
What limitations are you referring to?
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post #14194 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by KSpan View Post
What limitations are you referring to?
It may be a limitation unique to Sony's deployment of Android, but Plex doesn't output 5.1 DTS using their app on the TV (I believe this is being worked but has been an issue for a year). Also the video player usually conks out for me once per movie. Roku solved both of those things for me.

Now I'm just trying to find how people are using DirecTV with the set -- what equipment and HDMI ports they are using.

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post #14195 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 06:46 AM
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So I'm still trying to get my TV back to a usable state after there was a several-hour power failure here. I finally got Samba to stop, but now ... Various ones of my apps are saying I'm not connected to the internet. Amazon Prime Video, PBS, and Google Play Store all complain in various ways that I'm not connected to the internet. Meanwhile, Netflix cheerfully allows me to play content as usual.

I have the thing wired to ethernet, so wifi is turned off; is it possible that all my apps except Netflix are unable to comprehend a user not using wifi ? So I try turning on wifi, and it says it's unable to connect, complaining in a variety of ways: meanwhile, I'm using that very same wifi network to post this now. I'm at wit's end, short of doing a factory reset and (again) erasing all the customization I've done thus far.

This thing has a beautiful picture, but I'm not sure it's worth the mental health consequences. I mean, I've been trying to recover from the fact that there was a power failure for the last couple of hours. It's insane. I'm a PhD engineer; I'm been working with computers for almost 40 years (though from a hardware angle). I fix my own car. I do my own plumbing, electrical work, and carpentry. I design my own circuits for various hobby projects. I program Arduinos and write my own Android apps to control them. I say all this not to boast, but simply to point out that I'm not the most naive user, and yet here I am. It's f*cking ridiculous.

Does anyone know what Cructhfield's return policy is ?
Before you return it you might want to try resetting the TV to factory if you haven't done so already. I see you did a soft reset but you might need to try starting from scratch?
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post #14196 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by logan456 View Post
75 inch. A shame to because despite the vertical band the tv does have a really nice picture for a mid range priced TV.
There was a period on this thread where several people reported a line down the middle of just the 75" panels and a lot of speculation about the cause. I believe all those TVs were returned and replaced.

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Before you return it you might want to try resetting the TV to factory if you haven't done so already. I see you did a soft reset but you might need to try starting from scratch?
I think he's aware, but doesn't want to throw out all of his customization. I haven't done a reset since I first got mine, but it's a major problem when you have to do that -- and it's literally the first thing Sony suggests when confronted with almost any problem. All the more perplexing that there no way to perform a system backup so settings can be easily restored after such a factory reset. On a TV that allows this much customization, and indeed almost requires it, it's unthinkable that they can't be backed up, especially on a TV that seems to require periodic resets.

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post #14197 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie View Post
Just bought the 65" version -- love it. Don't like the limitations of Android, but my new Roku box seems to do the trick there. My question: if I get upgraded DirecTV equipment to support 4K HDR, will I need to use ports 2 or 3 for that? Right now I have the Roku and Xbox plugged into HDMI ports 2/3, and DirecTV in port 1. I don't know if DirecTV will support 60 fps 4K/HDR and I'd rather not get a new receiver to switch.



I don't have the 900e, but I do have the 930e that has the same configuration as far as the ports are concerned. Directv's 4K does support 4K 60fps/HDR on their live events 4k channel so you want the Directv box on one of those ports. You might be able to get away with moving the Roku box to either ports 1 or 4 as those ports will support 4k HDR up to 30hz. Not sure what 4K 60fps content you would be missing out on from the Roku other than Youtube videos.
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post #14198 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tmdorsey View Post
I don't have the 900e, but I do have the 930e that has the same configuration as far as the ports are concerned. Directv's 4K does support 4K 60fps/HDR on their live events 4k channel so you want the Directv box on one of those ports. You might be able to get away with moving the Roku box to either ports 1 or 4 as those ports will support 4k HDR up to 30hz. Not sure what 4K 60fps content you would be missing out on from the Roku other than Youtube videos.
Could I connect the TV to the coax (since it is a DirecTV ready set) and avoid needing to use HDMI at all?
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post #14199 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 08:07 AM
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Could I connect the TV to the coax (since it is a DirecTV ready set) and avoid needing to use HDMI at all?
It's DirecTV ready by way of RDU. You can either connect a DirecTV box via HDMI or you can leverage the RDU functionality of a DirecTV box. Neither has anything to do with Coax.
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post #14200 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post
There was a period on this thread where several people reported a line down the middle of just the 75" panels and a lot of speculation about the cause. I believe all those TVs were returned and replaced.



I think he's aware, but doesn't want to throw out all of his customization. I haven't done a reset since I first got mine, but it's a major problem when you have to do that -- and it's literally the first thing Sony suggests when confronted with almost any problem. All the more perplexing that there no way to perform a system backup so settings can be easily restored after such a factory reset. On a TV that allows this much customization, and indeed almost requires it, it's unthinkable that they can't be backed up, especially on a TV that seems to require periodic resets.
Thanks for the heads up. I am still within the return policy of bestbuy so I am in the process of trying to get them to come out and deliver me another TV.
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post #14201 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie View Post
Could I connect the TV to the coax (since it is a DirecTV ready set) and avoid needing to use HDMI at all?
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Originally Posted by meburdick View Post
It's DirecTV ready by way of RDU. You can either connect a DirecTV box via HDMI or you can leverage the RDU functionality of a DirecTV box. Neither has anything to do with Coax.

What meburdick says is correct. You could use RVU as an alternative to HDMI. I would only recommend RVU as a short term solution as by going RVU you are relying on Sony for updates to the RVU functionality.
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post #14202 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 08:51 AM
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What meburdick says is correct. You could use RVU as an alternative to HDMI. I would only recommend RVU as a short term solution as by going RVU you are relying on Sony for updates to the RVU functionality.
Thanks for correcting my wrong term. I was looking at RDU and knew it didn't look right.

You currently can't connect a Genie (DVR) to a 4K TV and get 4K content... You have to use a specific "remote box" or the RVU option.
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post #14203 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 09:01 AM
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anybody having trouble logging into Google account with 2-step verification?

I have tried several times to log-in. Each time it says, ~"your administrator requires additional verification...", shows 2-step verification dialog, a message pops up on my phone, I click Yes, TV goes back to ~"your administrator requires additional verification...", shows 2-step verification dialog, a message pops up on my phone, I click Yes, TV says FAILED then shows dialog where one is supposed to choose another option (text, phone call, authenticator, etc), but none of the choices is highlighted and it is not possible to select any of the choices using the remote.

I know it worked way back when but now it is impossible to log into the my Google account with 2-step verification enabled.

any suggestions?

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post #14204 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Derek87 View Post
so, i'm perplexed because unless the latest firmware did something wonky, i believe something has changed with my setup that i am unaware of.

here's the situation: i have an Apple TV 4k connected by HDMI (18 gobs monoprice 6 ft cable) to the 900e, then an optical cable going from the 900e to my Emotiva processor which doesn't support 4k nor 4k pass through.

the question i have is this for the rest of you Apple TV 4k folks is this:

what do yo use you set you Audio Surround sound to be? Best Available or Dolby Digital 5.1?

i could have sworn i had it set to Best Available, and it then allowed me to get 5.1 sound from both iTunes Movies and Amazon Prime movies. yet, that is no longer the case. (i reset my Apple TV to factory settings to try to figure out some other issues i have been having)

if i set it to "Best Available," my Emotiva only receives a 2 channel 48k PCM signal. and of i force the Apple TV to output DD5.1, i get 5.1 audio.

is this everyone else's experience? have i missed some setting on the 900e which would allow uncompressed 5.1 LPCM data to be sent back to my Emotiva processor?

thanks in advance for any help/insights/experiences. i've spent several hours tonight swapping cables, playing with different settings, and maybe i'm trying to do the impossible and i never had this working with "best available" previously.
I think you may be right. I updated to newest firmware last night and noticed this morning while watching a DVR recording of the new AMC show "The Terror" that my Sony DN1040 receiver (that typically codes Dolby Digital from my cable box) was only sending out a PCM signal. I didn't have time to investigate further as I had to get to work to see if anything else was affected but will look into it further tonight.

I'll check into the forum to see if anyone else is having the same problem...

EDIT: To clarify I have my set-top box going into Port 4 of the television and then using ARC from Port 3 into the AVR - again - never had any issue until the update. I'll look into the settings of the TV and AVR tonight.

Last edited by stonewahl; 03-28-2018 at 09:26 AM.
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post #14205 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by meburdick View Post
You state that the 940D is the "better" model compared to the 930D and similar with the 940E/930D. There is exactly ONE functional difference between the 930 and 940 sets in each series (every other difference has to do with things like dimensions and weight)
True I guess I could have been more detailed, as we probably all could be, just gave a quick answer instead stating the 940D/940E and the 930D/930E are different. The 940D/940E has more FALD zones per square inch if memory serves me correct and as you noted one is edge lit and the other direct lit which are two very different things that effect the picture quality. I see it time and time again, people wishing there was a 65X940E, not the 65X930E, not that the 930E is a slouch, as it is a great set.
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post #14206 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
True I guess I could have been more detailed, as we probably all could be, just gave a quick answer instead stating the 940D/940E and the 930D/930E are different. The 940D/940E has more FALD zones per square inch if memory serves me correct and as you noted one is edge lit and the other direct lit which are two very different things that effect the picture quality. I see it time and time again, people wishing there was a 65X940E, not the 65X930E, not that the 930E is a slouch, as it is a great set.
Amen!
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post #14207 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 09:49 AM
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I think you may be right. I updated to newest firmware last night and noticed this morning while watching a DVR recording of the new AMC show "The Terror" that my Sony DN1040 receiver (that typically codes Dolby Digital from my cable box) was only sending out a PCM signal. I didn't have time to investigate further as I had to get to work to see if anything else was affected but will look into it further tonight.

I'll check into the forum to see if anyone else is having the same problem...

EDIT: To clarify I have my set-top box going into Port 4 of the television and then using ARC from Port 3 into the AVR - again - never had any issue until the update. I'll look into the settings of the TV and AVR tonight.
thanks, Stonewahl. i'd love to hear more once you have investigated.

again, any Apple TV 4k users out there that can confirm/compare their output/surround settings with mine?

following up on Stonewahl's comments, i can elaborate on my setup:
- HDMI 2: Apple TV 4k -- if set to best available, it only sends 2 channel PCM to my Emotiva Processor via optical cable
- HDMI 3/ARC: output of my Emotiva Processor for my Oppo BDP83: i didn't play this last night, but i assume this works fine as i can decode 7.1 TrueHD/etc just fine
- HDMI 4: Tivo Roamio OTA. i don't know what i have it set to output, but for the TV shows i've tested, i get 5.1 output over the optical out going back to the Emotiva Processor (again, same optical cable)

so, something funky is going on, or i may be misremembering (ATV forum folks are in disagreement about what the ATV should be set to). i'd love to hear someone the experiences of someone who has an ATV 4k and the 900e and something similar to what i am using (could be a soundbar or other receiver/processor). i know my processor is not the issue as it has flawlessly taken in a variety of different digital streams.
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post #14208 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by stonewahl View Post
I think you may be right. I updated to newest firmware last night and noticed this morning while watching a DVR recording of the new AMC show "The Terror" that my Sony DN1040 receiver (that typically codes Dolby Digital from my cable box) was only sending out a PCM signal. I didn't have time to investigate further as I had to get to work to see if anything else was affected but will look into it further tonight.

I'll check into the forum to see if anyone else is having the same problem...

EDIT: To clarify I have my set-top box going into Port 4 of the television and then using ARC from Port 3 into the AVR - again - never had any issue until the update. I'll look into the settings of the TV and AVR tonight.
May I ask what set top box?

I recently ran into a problem that appears common - but the Spectrum 201 DVR refuses to hold its setting of outputting Dolby and requires rapidly toggling between hdmi and dolby outputs in its menus to get it to come back on.
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post #14209 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 09:52 AM
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Oops posted too late. I see it's a Tivo
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post #14210 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 10:02 AM
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Oops posted too late. I see it's a Tivo
i don't think stonewahl has a Tivo (i do)...he is using some unspecified Cable box.
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post #14211 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 10:02 AM
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May I ask what set top box?

I recently ran into a problem that appears common - but the Spectrum 201 DVR refuses to hold its setting of outputting Dolby and requires rapidly toggling between hdmi and dolby outputs in its menus to get it to come back on.
My set-top box is a Spectrum Arris DCX-3600-M unit. Wonder if that could be the underlying problem?
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post #14212 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 11:12 AM
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Hi guys,

My XBR65X900E is connected to my router with an ethernet cable, and ever since I got the TV it's taken 15-30 seconds for it to connect to the network once it's been turned on. Now, this isn't the end of the world, but since I'm starting to get into smart home automation this delay does pose a small issue.

Has anyone else experienced this? It happens with both of my routers. I'd love to hear any tips that might make the TV connect to the network immediately after being turned on.

Thanks!
Tom
yes, same problem. WiFi off. TV is plugged into same switch that provides gigabit connection to Xbox One.

if Netflix was on when I turned TV 'off' then TV says it cannot find the content or is having trouble with the connection. or if I try to access Netflix too quickly after turning the TV 'on'.

on the other hand, using Kodi to access NAS works as quickly as I can press the buttons on the remote

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post #14213 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 11:18 AM
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yes, same problem. WiFi off. TV is plugged into same switch that provides gigabit connection to Xbox One.

if Netflix was on when I turned TV 'off' then TV says it cannot find the content or is having trouble with the connection. or if I try to access Netflix too quickly after turning the TV 'on'.

on the other hand, using Kodi to access NAS works as quickly as I can press the buttons on the remote
The networking device and connection is not "ready" when you power on the TV and it causes any app that requires the network to timeout / crash / hang / etc. at first start-up. If you power the TV on with the Netflix button, it works correctly. The piece that I don't understand is why it needs to initialize the connection at start-up if the connection is already in place to allow remote devices to power on the TV.

Sony's networking implementation, in general, is bad. If, by chance, you get or assign an IP that conflicts with another device, there is no indication of that. You're totally on your own to track that down and potentially fix it.
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post #14214 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 11:26 AM
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return

best buy is coming next Tuesday to swap out my TV. Hopefully I have better luck with the second set. Kind of frustrating though, first person I spoke with told me I was not a elite member and I could not return the TV because it was passed the 15 day return window. I know for a fact I am a elite member so I called back and spoke with a different person. He told me I was in fact a elite member and wasn't sure why the last person I spoke with told me that I wasn't.
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post #14215 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by meburdick View Post
The networking device and connection is not "ready" when you power on the TV and it causes any app that requires the network to timeout / crash / hang / etc. at first start-up. If you power the TV on with the Netflix button, it works correctly. The piece that I don't understand is why it needs to initialize the connection at start-up if the connection is already in place to allow remote devices to power on the TV.

Sony's networking implementation, in general, is bad. If, by chance, you get or assign an IP that conflicts with another device, there is no indication of that. You're totally on your own to track that down and potentially fix it.
weird. sounds like we are getting opposite results...

if I use the Netflix button, or Netflix was up when the TV was turned 'off', then it does not work correctly for me.
if I turn 'on' the TV and immediately go to Kodi and play something from NAS then it works fine.

also came to conclusion that Sony'y networking on this TV is horrid.

Sony XBR65X900E
Denon AVR-X4400H
B&W 683 front, CC6 S2 center, DM601 S2 surround, DM603 rear, ASW1000 powered sub woofer, 4 X SP-T22A-LR Dolby Atmos
NVIDIA Shield | XBox One S | Plex | HDHomeRun | Nintendo Wii | Xbox 360 | Popcorn A400
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post #14216 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megabitee View Post
weird. sounds like we are getting opposite results...

if I use the Netflix button, or Netflix was up when the TV was turned 'off', then it does not work correctly for me.
if I turn 'on' the TV and immediately go to Kodi and play something from NAS then it works fine.

also came to conclusion that Sony'y networking on this TV is horrid.
Using the Netflix button with the TV off is ok about 3/4 of the time. I still get some failures, but powering on the TV and then trying to run Netflix or Amazon right away results in a fail 100% of the time.
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post #14217 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by logan456 View Post
Thanks for the heads up. I am still within the return policy of bestbuy so I am in the process of trying to get them to come out and deliver me another TV.
I have a 75 and have no banding issues. It's one of the cleanest panels I've ever seen on an LCD tv. Especially this large.
I WANT MORE likes this.

Sony 75xZ9D connected to Panasonic UB820 and Nakamichi Shockwafe 7.1 Pro Atmos
Sony 55x900e
Sony 55xA1E
Sony 75x940e (Returned :-( bad motion blur)
Sony 75x900e, Sony 75x940d, Sony 55x930d, 55x810c, Sony 55x850c (All retired)
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post #14218 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 12:21 PM
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Hi,

I was wondering what is the best, Home Cinema DIY TV calibration software?


Chrome Pure Standard? Calman Home or Light Space HTL?

They are all pretty close, in regards to price.


What is the most accurate and user friendly of the bunch?


I'll be using a X-Rite EODIS3 i1Display Pro which I believe works with all 3.

I also have the Disney WOW Blueray and the Spears and Munsil first edition disc.

Will I need anything else?


Thanks for the feedback.

Craig
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post #14219 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Derek87 View Post
thanks, Stonewahl. i'd love to hear more once you have investigated.



again, any Apple TV 4k users out there that can confirm/compare their output/surround settings with mine?



following up on Stonewahl's comments, i can elaborate on my setup:

- HDMI 2: Apple TV 4k -- if set to best available, it only sends 2 channel PCM to my Emotiva Processor via optical cable

- HDMI 3/ARC: output of my Emotiva Processor for my Oppo BDP83: i didn't play this last night, but i assume this works fine as i can decode 7.1 TrueHD/etc just fine

- HDMI 4: Tivo Roamio OTA. i don't know what i have it set to output, but for the TV shows i've tested, i get 5.1 output over the optical out going back to the Emotiva Processor (again, same optical cable)



so, something funky is going on, or i may be misremembering (ATV forum folks are in disagreement about what the ATV should be set to). i'd love to hear someone the experiences of someone who has an ATV 4k and the 900e and something similar to what i am using (could be a soundbar or other receiver/processor). i know my processor is not the issue as it has flawlessly taken in a variety of different digital streams.


The 900e (and I believe most TV’s) will only pass through 2.1 PCM over optical or HDMI. If this is your setup, you will want to force Dolby 5.1 from the Apple TV. See link below and scroll way down to the PCM section.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inpu...io-passthrough


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #14220 of 19200 Old 03-28-2018, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac128 View Post
Quote:
Before you return it you might want to try resetting the TV to factory if you haven't done so already. I see you did a soft reset but you might need to try starting from scratch?
I think he's aware, but doesn't want to throw out all of his customization. I haven't done a reset since I first got mine, but it's a major problem when you have to do that -- and it's literally the first thing Sony suggests when confronted with almost any problem. All the more perplexing that there no way to perform a system backup so settings can be easily restored after such a factory reset. On a TV that allows this much customization, and indeed almost requires it, it's unthinkable that they can't be backed up, especially on a TV that seems to require periodic resets.
Yes, and yes (I am aware, and it's ridiculous there's no way to back up my settings).

Well, doing another soft reset (by holding the power button down) seems to have fixed my problems with some apps not thinking I had an internet connection. Odd, since I think it was the inadvertent soft reset, caused by the power failure, that caused all this trouble. But maybe the TV came back up before my internet did, and that got it hung.

I've toyed with the notion of buying an Apple TV 4K, so maybe that's the thing to do. This TV has the same problem as almost every other streaming device I've used (besides my old Apple TV), that not all the apps behave the same way (reversing, fast fwd'ing, etc), whereas Apple hopefully still requires all the apps to have the same "look and feel". Plus, I gather the ATV just does 4K better than the TV (assuming Spectrum ever gives me the bandwidth to stream 4K, ). I'm trying to declutter my A/V area, but just having the TV, MacMini (for music server), BlueRay player, and ATV4, might be reasonable.

Then the main frustration left with the TV might be this Samba BS, but maybe I've killed it for good now, or maybe I need to bite the bullet and try Goard's de-clutter script.
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