8K TV is Coming: What You Need to Know - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post
Yet picture on front page is 1080.


Correct. That's no mistake. That's because upscaling is part of the equation and 1080p isn't going anywhere anytime soon, so how an 8K TV deals with it is definitely still relevant.
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post #32 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:36 PM
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How big would your TV need to be to notice an improvement with 8K content? I like my 4K TV but I don't think that anyone would really argue that the jump from HD to 4K was much less noticeable than the jump from SD to HD. How much more will we be getting out of 8K?

When we get TV broadcasts in 4K* and streaming content offered with high enough bitrates to take advantage of the 4K resolution I'll worry about 8K.

*I honestly think that we'll probably be on a full streaming ecosystem before we see regular 4K broadcasts.
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post #33 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:41 PM
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Also, this post got a really skeptical response from a bunch of nerd-enthusiasts (I use that term endearingly) who obsess over slight improvements in visual quality so how much weaker so would the broad commercial demand be?
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post #34 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:49 PM
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Hell bring on 8K, the great thing it could do, is hopefully push down the prices of 4K and I will be happy to pick up a couple of sets and a new 4K projector at a much better price!
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post #35 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:51 PM
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Canon even has a 120-megapixel DSLR for sale.
The Canon EOS 5DS R DSLR has 50mp, the 120mp Canon DSLR is not for sale as far as I know.

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post #36 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
8k will mostly just benefit tvs 75" and up in my opinion. So I wouldn't expect a difference with smaller tvs.
Bingo, you wouldn't even notice the difference on a set 60" or smaller. So, for the vast majority of people 8K is waste of money. This whole pixel race reminds me of the old pixel race in digital cameras, when in reality what is needed isn't more mega-pixels but better picture quality for the pixels we have now.
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post #37 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Explain by what mechanism 8K TVs use more power than same-size, same-brightness 4K?

Europeans can't fit large TVs in their homes anyhow, they'll be fine with 4K.

I bet you big bucks that if worse comes to worse, the EPA will exempt huge power-hungry TVs because someone who happens to be in power loves TVs a lot.
Here's a example: because of the increased density of self emission points a OLED panels and the low brightness associate with smaller emitters. From a OLED-Info.com article

DSCC: LGD will start mass producing top-emission OLED TV panels in 2019
LGD's current OLED TV panels use a bottom-emission architecture, but according to DSCC LGD is aiming to shift their production process to a top-emission design starting in 2019. LG currently has a pilot capacity of about 3,000 monthly top-emission substrates, and plans to start mass production (with over 10,000 monthly substrates) in 2019. DSCC says that top-emission will be required for 65" 8K panels as a bottom-emission design will not be bright enough with such a high density. The shift to top-emission will increase the aperture ratio (=brightness) by around 10%.

I seen this with several articles talking about 8K display technology, not a lot that is readily available, just bits here and there.

So perhaps this increase sales of solar panels, as it sure won't help with natural gas bills in the winter!
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post #38 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
Here's a example: because of the increased density of self emission points a OLED panels and the low brightness associate with smaller emitters. From a OLED-Info.com article

DSCC: LGD will start mass producing top-emission OLED TV panels in 2019
LGD's current OLED TV panels use a bottom-emission architecture, but according to DSCC LGD is aiming to shift their production process to a top-emission design starting in 2019. LG currently has a pilot capacity of about 3,000 monthly top-emission substrates, and plans to start mass production (with over 10,000 monthly substrates) in 2019. DSCC says that top-emission will be required for 65" 8K panels as a bottom-emission design will not be bright enough with such a high density. The shift to top-emission will increase the aperture ratio (=brightness) by around 10%.

I seen this with several articles talking about 8K display technology, not a lot that is readily available, just bits here and there.

So perhaps this increase sales of solar panels, as it sure won't help with natural gas bills in the winter!
So long story short is they engineer their way around the issue. No surprise there.

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post #39 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:58 PM
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Didn't Ralph Kramden on The Honeymooners cover this?:

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post #40 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
I used to think 8k was stupid. But if that means improved Processing to handle it(like Samsung's impressive AI demo), then I'm all for it. My biggest worry was lower resolution content looking atrocious. (in the case of 8k, even 1080p would be considered lower resolution content).
Definitely a concern for me. I'm 100% unimpressed with upscaling of anything lower than 1080p into a 4K display. I think it looks like CRAP.....

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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
And even if there is no 8K content, as was written, the TVs will do a good job of upscaling. Everything will look better on a 8K TV.
Not in my experience - I'd imagine 1080p content will still look just as good, or better on a 1080p display than an 8K display. And lower resolutions? Atrocious! UNLESS there is some magic new processing can pull off??

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Originally Posted by BoboBrazil View Post
I doubt the jump from 4k to 8k would even be noticeable for most people. My girlfriend can't even tell the difference between 1080p and 4k :P
I can.....

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Originally Posted by JWhip View Post
Just another reason to hold onto my money and skip 4K altogether.
Life is too short to suffer through lesser resolutions......

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Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post
Yet picture on front page is 1080.


Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Correct. That's no mistake. That's because upscaling is part of the equation and 1080p isn't going anywhere anytime soon, so how an 8K TV deals with it is definitely still relevant.
I'm really skeptical of that. It sure says 1920 x 1080, but as already mentioned, demos are often tweaked and not representative of reality. Maybe there is some sort of superior processing going on here....?? I'd like to think so!

Anyway, I'm looking forward to it! Probably won't be able to afford it I'm assuming, but looking forward nonetheless.

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post #41 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
I'm really skeptical of that. It sure says 1920 x 1080, but as already mentioned, demos are often tweaked and not representative of reality. Maybe there is some sort of superior processing going on here....?? I'd like to think so!

Anyway, I'm looking forward to it! Probably won't be able to afford it I'm assuming, but looking forward nonetheless.
That's the whole point... going from 1080p to 8K lets you tap into the beefy processing associated with delivering 8K video. I recognize the "look" of the upscaling and sharpening algorithms from years of digital photography and upscaling/sharpening images for print. Upscaling and look better than it already does. In fact a wide array of image processing functions can be improved upon when there's a larger canvas (i.e. more pixels) and better processing to go with it.

4K upscaled quite nicely, fwiw. I mean, really who cares... I guess some people will gripe about there being an abundance of pixels to work with but the demo 8K TVs all look phenomenal and I just don't see anything about the existence of these early models that's "bad" per se. Now, going beyond 8K, I dunno. but 8K provides a nice cushion where you never have to worry about seeing individual pixels again. I like that.
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post #42 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
So long story short is they engineer their way around the issue. No surprise there.
There was a IBC article that has since disappeared as is the tendency of online content. This concerns the first marketplace for 8k displays.



Quote:
While Japan has its commitment to start 8K transmissions next year, and South Korea and China will inevitably dominate the retail sector, it is also fair to assume that China will dominate sales of 8K units over the next few years (see chart above).

Paul Gray, Principal Analyst/Consumer Devices at IHS Technology, says that 65-inch sales will be the ‘norm’ as the size represents an optimal production size for large-scale output at sensible prices. But he also cautions that current 8K models are so heavy that they exceed the load-bearing specifications for many walls and floors.

Gray’s sales forecasts for 8K are also modest. He suggests that by 2021 the total global demand for 8K will be less than 3.5 million units, and only a few hundred-thousand units in Japan, where – at least – content will be widely available.

More important in the short to medium term, says Gray, is High Dynamic Range (HDR) displays in either OLED or LCD, and in a Dolby Vision or HDR10 ‘Ultra-HDR Premium’ versions.

The core question for producers, broadcasters and the TV industry is what happens once 4K becomes ubiquitous, or near universal as far as ‘western’ nations and those high-consuming China, Japan and some Asian markets are concerned?

Gray’s IHS forecasts are that by 2021 some 140 million 4K sets will be sold, up from about 85 million displays to be bought in 2018.

The answer is simple: nobody expects the LGs, Sonys or Samsungs to pack up their display businesses. 8K will follow as night follows day, suggest plenty of observers. As with 4K, broadcasters will buy into 8K technology if only to use the ‘Zoom’ function for sports and special events.
Of interest was the weight of the current 8K TV's is a big negative, can't really wall mount them, and China being the main future user of 8K TV's derived this article

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post #43 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
There was a IBC article that has since disappeared as is the tendency of online content. This concerns the first marketplace for 8k displays.



Of interest was the weight of the current 8K TV's is a big negative, can't really wall mount them, and China being the main future user of 8K TV's derived this article
AFAIK the Q9S is not some wall-breaking hulk that causes a neighborhood-wide brownout every time you turn it on. But we'll see, I'm looking forward to a hands-on with one at some point.

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post #44 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Be forewarned, the following picture may be a trigger for some videophiles... yes, even SD upscaling to 8K was shown:



Spoiler!
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post #45 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:23 PM
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Come on already!!! 4K content isn?t even ready yet!!! We are decades away from having 8K content on CBS, NBC, etc. This article is just propaganda for the TV hardware industry. Anyone who says that 4K content for home consumption is abundant is just kidding themselves. To say ?8K is coming? is like saying that ?processor speed for computers will increase? in the future. There is NO broadcast 4K TV, VERY LITTLE streaming content, HARDLY ANY 4K Blu-Rays, etc. etc. I am talking about real-world availability of a lot of 4K content, not just a few movies and Netflix and amazon originals. It just doesn?t exist yet! The ONLY reasonable reason to buy 4K television sets in January 2018 is because they are so damn cheap!!!
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post #47 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Be forewarned, the following picture may be a trigger for some videophiles... yes, even SD upscaling to 8K was shown:
Because upscaling SD to "8k" makes it look better than using the same scaling algorithm and processing to scale it to "4k"? Oh wait, no... The extra pixels add nothing to the image at any sane seating distance relative to the size of the display because any useful information that could be extracted from the SD signal happened way before it got to "8k".
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post #48 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:36 PM
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jogiba: Cool content but not 8K of course!

Let the content catch up to the technology....

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post #49 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post
How do you define a "pure 4K viewing experience"?

What do you mean when you state, as fact, that there's no such thing as "too many pixels"?
"Pure 4K viewing experience" = movies mastered in actual 4K, instead of 4K titles mastered in 2K.

No such thing as "too many pixels" is a notion. It's similar to "a watch can't be too accurate." Now, pragmatically speaking of course you can have too many pixels, but the idea is if technology allows for greater pixel densities, as long as all else is equal (brightness/contrast/color/motion) there's not going to be a downside to it—better to have too many pixels than too few.

Of course there's an argument to be made about capabilities of display technology as currently implemented, but the point remains that high pixel density is a good thing and if you can "overkill" it I don't see what harm is done.

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post #50 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:38 PM
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Firstly do we not love all technology which brings realistic real-life pictures and video in our living rooms, in a way that we can not distinguish between reality and virtual reality. Until we achieve that the race will go on and this is then only a stepping stone now matter if it is 4k, 8k or 128k..

A couple of things

Today to achieve 4k streaming content through iTunes and Netflix I need around a 25Mbit/s connection for 4k compared to 5Mbit/s and content per hour for HD. This results in approx 20GB per hour for 4k in comparison to 5GB per hour for HD so approx multiplication by 4.

For 8K does that mean for I need at an absolute minimum 100Mbit/s connection just to watch 8K content and does that mean it is around 80GB per hour content to stream down.

Just in Australia the highest plan for Internet is 100Mbit/s and per Australian Consumer Group the best Internet provider only delivers a max of 72Mbit/s of the 100Mbit/s. So no 8K at the moment

Certainly I would not be able to watch 8K with current streaming technology or is there already a streaming standard where I can watch this content at the same streaming speed than 4K content.

Internet services at the moment I feel would not be able to cope and 5G networks are still a little bit out. I suspect we are still another 4-5 years out until 8K gets more mainstream.

Hence happy to have purchased my 4K Panasonic OLED which is quite amazing.

Any thoughts on streaming technology, standards would be great to understand how to achieve 8K content streaming beyond just pure monitor technology.
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post #51 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:40 PM
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I sure would not buy a 8K tv now, not knowing how 8K will evolve especially with future 8K devices, and whether or not they would even work in the future on a 2018 8K tv. Just like all those who bought non HDR 4K tv's in the past. They are pretty much out of luck.

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post #52 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fyodor View Post
How big would your TV need to be to notice an improvement with 8K content? I like my 4K TV but I don't think that anyone would really argue that the jump from HD to 4K was much less noticeable than the jump from SD to HD. How much more will we be getting out of 8K?

When we get TV broadcasts in 4K* and streaming content offered with high enough bitrates to take advantage of the 4K resolution I'll worry about 8K.

*I honestly think that we'll probably be on a full streaming ecosystem before we see regular 4K broadcasts.
Ideally, enormous. Pragmatically speaking, 8K's best application is VR, where your entire field of view is consumed by the image.

Gamers are more likely to appreciate 8K on a flat-panel, once GPUs get to the point where they can handle 8K at reasonable framerates. The 65" BFGDs from Nvidia are a step in that direction, and right now I'm about 3 feet from a 65" LG G7, typing this. I'm close enough to see pixels and the pixel grid right now.

As I noted in the article, 8K requires a bit of rethinking regarding how you'd use a display to begin with, if one is to get the most out of it.

Used conventionally (couch, living room) nobody is going to see the difference between true 4K and true 8K.

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post #53 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
I sure would not buy a 8K tv now, not knowing how 8K will evolve especially with future 8K devices, and whether or not they would even work in the future on a 2018 8K tv. Just like all those who bought non HDR 4K tv's in the past. They are pretty much out of luck.
You think the rich people who bought those first-generation 4K and OLED TVs for big bucks (like the plasma early adopters before them) are out of luck? Or are they perfectly happy to have all the TVs in their mansions and yacht replaced every 2 years? I've seen Rolex plumbing and Versace dinnerware. TVs like that, are jewelry for those who can afford them.

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post #54 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:53 PM
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Cool More Pixels than the human eye can see.

8K today will be like a buy a Ferrari and drive it at 35 miles per Hour.

What a waste.

The Human eye can not appreciate the detail.

More Pixels than the human eye can see.
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8K today will be like a buy a Ferrari and drive it at 35 miles per Hour.

What a waste.

The Human eye can not appreciate the detail*.

More Pixels than the human eye can see.
Some people buy concept cars and don't drive them at all. Because they can afford it.

*Sure it can, but you have to get very close to the screen.

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post #56 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:56 PM
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Apparently no attendees at CES had any interest in seeing this. (At sizes less than 85")

http://www.ultra-d.com/2018/01/10/st...global-market/
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post #57 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Apparently no attendees at CES had any interest in seeing this. (At sizes less than 85")

http://www.ultra-d.com/2018/01/10/st...global-market/
Scott stopped by... https://www.avsforum.com/stream-tv-gl...e-3d-ces-2018/

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post #58 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 02:57 PM
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in my ecosystem, the display resolution and the source resolution have already totally split(well, sorta. i haven't technically moved on from 1080p in any form yet)

but, while 8k displays may be available, and 4k displays are now affordable and common, there is ZERO UHD sources available to me now or in the foreseeable future other than discs. this means no netflix, no cable, not even illegal streaming because the bandwidth coming into my home can't support it.

what this means for ME is that, displays need to be super good at upscaling, and they need to show an advantage without native content. for right now, i consider my 1080p tvs 'perfect' resolution, only the projector still has visible pixels(if i'm being super picky). not to say i would avoid 8k tv's, just that i'm not going to trade in my 1080p displays for 8k ones anymore than i would toss out a 100w per channel avr for a 150w per channel one. at this point, it's truly 'just a number' to me. it will be the other features and improvements that will get me to upgrade, eventually
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AVR: Pioneer VSX-1130K, 7.1/5.1.2 audio
Sources: HTPC, PS3, XBOX360, Wii
Control: Harmony One
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post #59 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
in my ecosystem, the display resolution and the source resolution have already totally split(well, sorta. i haven't technically moved on from 1080p in any form yet)

but, while 8k displays may be available, and 4k displays are now affordable and common, there is ZERO UHD sources available to me now or in the foreseeable future other than discs. this means no netflix, no cable, not even illegal streaming because the bandwidth coming into my home can't support it.

what this means for ME is that, displays need to be super good at upscaling, and they need to show an advantage without native content. for right now, i consider my 1080p tvs 'perfect' resolution, only the projector still has visible pixels(if i'm being super picky). not to say i would avoid 8k tv's, just that i'm not going to trade in my 1080p displays for 8k ones anymore than i would toss out a 100w per channel avr for a 150w per channel one. At this point, it's truly 'just a number' to me. It will be the other features and improvements that will get me to upgrade, eventually.
Actually that's the subtext of my point... 8K going forward "represents" a cutting-edge TV. The abundance of pixels is just part of the package. Other advances in PQ will be folded in with 8K, it's a certainty.
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post #60 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
You think the rich people who bought those first-generation 4K and OLED TVs for big bucks (like the plasma early adopters before them) are out of luck? Or are they perfectly happy to have all the TVs in their mansions and yacht replaced every 2 years? I've seen Rolex plumbing and Versace dinnerware. TVs like that, are jewelry for those who can afford them.
haha, no doubt. if an enthusiast stretched their budget and bought early, then sure, they are out of luck. But like you said, most of the people buying those tv's probably have them installed in the shoe closet of their guest room at their summer home. it'd be like the average person filling up their car the day before gas went down 5cents/gal.

Displays: Samsung PN64F8500/JVC X35
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1130K, 7.1/5.1.2 audio
Sources: HTPC, PS3, XBOX360, Wii
Control: Harmony One
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