8K TV is Coming: What You Need to Know - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:05 PM
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Before tackling 8K, can they work out an affordable display technology that doesn't have issues with basic image quality and viewing experience? Something that offers a combination of wide viewing angle, strong contrast and black levels, and all-around good screen uniformity and purity? OLED seemed like the thing, but the current problems with uniformity in the grayscale is pretty disappointing.
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post #62 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
haha, no doubt. if an enthusiast stretched their budget and bought early, then sure, they are out of luck. But like you said, most of the people buying those tv's probably have them installed in the shoe closet of their guest room at their summer home. it'd be like the average person filling up their car the day before gas went down 5cents/gal.
Smart enthusiasts on a budget will do well to buy top-tier TVs that have reached the end of their product cycle i.e. are on clearance. IMO. Being 1 year behind can save you big bucks, especially if you upgrade often and take resale value into account.

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post #63 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:12 PM
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We are still using a 10 year old rear projection 1080p TV, because my wife says there is nothing wrong with it now that we replaced lamp. I would love a 4K TV in our living room, but we sit 16' back from the current TV. To truly enjoy it I need to sit closer correct? We need moveable track mounted furniture that will adjust to type of TV we are watching. I have yet to witness a full 4K movie in a home theater. I don't think a lot of people will be buying 8K unless they have a lot of money to spend. It's not practical to me. Check i just upgraded from a 720 projector to a 1080 this last summer and it is fine for right now.

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post #64 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ladeback View Post
We are still using a 10 year old rear projection 1080p TV, because my wife says there is nothing wrong with it now that we replaced lamp. I would love a 4K TV in our living room, but we sit 16' back from the current TV. To truly enjoy it I need to sit closer correct? We need moveable track mounted furniture that will adjust to type of TV we are watching. I have yet to witness a full 4K movie in a home theater. I don't think a lot of people will be buying 8K unless they have a lot of money to spend. It's not practical to me. Check i just upgraded from a 720 projector to a 1080 this last summer and it is fine for right now.
Pragmatically speaking, true (no upsampled) 4K is already overkill for typical living room viewing habits, even with an 85" TV.

What's happening is that 1080p TVs are being phased out. 4K is going to enjoy a nice ride for some years to come, it's not going away. I get why some folks are cynical about 8K branding, but it surely serves as shorthand for "better TV" so that's how it's going to be marketed.

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post #65 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
You think the rich people who bought those first-generation 4K and OLED TVs for big bucks (like the plasma early adopters before them) are out of luck? Or are they perfectly happy to have all the TVs in their mansions and yacht replaced every 2 years? I've seen Rolex plumbing and Versace dinnerware. TVs like that, are jewelry for those who can afford them.
I think you missed my point. Just 2 to 3 years ago, people were buying 4K LCD tv's not knowing that their tv's would not be able to handle HDR. These people were not the super rich who could dispose of their tv's every year, but instead buy them expecting to keep them more than 5 years. A $2000 to $3000 LCD 4K tv, is not a tv of the super rich but perhaps upper middle class. They are the ones who invested early and do not buy every 1 to 2 years, so my point is still valid for them. They are out of luck with HDR, because they bought early. But yes, when 4K first came out, it was the tv of the rich. I probably should have said, I would not buy an 8K tv until the 3rd or 4th generation, when we will know more what future devices will be compatible.
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post #66 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidML3 View Post
The only thing I do know is
1. There is barely any content for 4k.
2. Tv broadcasts are still stuck in 720p
3. PC Games can barely run 4k at 60FPS. GPU's just aren't powerful enough.
4. There is barely any 4k playback devices
5. Did I mention there is barely any 4k content?

8k just isn't feasible and justifiable. It won't be until another decade until this takes hold.

4k tv have been out since around 2012 maybe and it took 6 years for it to go mainstream still with limited content. Maybe another 3 years until its on broadcasts and cable.
I play all my pc games at 4k. My 1080ti handles it perfectly. One thing about 4k is its so small you can turn off antialiasing which sharpens the whole image up even further as well as gives a big performance boost.

That said, I doubt that the benefit from 4k to 8k can be seen on even a 75" tv at 10 feet away. On my projector 135" at 12 feet away it was hard to see the difference between 1080p and 4k. This will be the main issue with it in my opinion.
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post #67 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:18 PM
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The writer muses about the coming IMAX experience in one's home. Excuse me for snoring. I saw Dunkirk in a huge IMAX theater in Manhattan and this corpse couldn't reach the excitement of a 1940s newsreel. Something that should be of real concern is the demise of 3D TVs. I got back to Bwana Devil (1952) in my neighb. First impression: man, this is really dim. But we all know how far 3D has come, even on blu-ray. It's as if the big players announced they wouldn't print any poetry books any longer, and we're supposed to take this because they're allowed to do it. Hasn't TV technology become a utility, and if so, shouldn't it be regulated?
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post #68 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post
I think you missed my point. Just 2 to 3 years ago, people were buying 4K LCD tv's not knowing that their tv's would not be able to handle HDR. These people were not the super rich who could dispose of their tv's every year, but instead buy them expecting to keep them more than 5 years. A $2000 to $3000 LCD 4K tv, is not a tv of the super rich but perhaps upper middle class. They are the ones who invested early and do not buy every 1 to 2 years, so my point is still valid for them. They are out of luck with HDR, because they bought early.
That's because HDR was not a thing. What can you say? Any time you buy any tech there's always going to be the risk that some new feature will result in regret. Especially when someone had to work to pay a premium and has emotional investment.

But how could one go back in time and say "wait for HDR" when there was no notion HDR was going to be a thing? That's the ole "hindsight is 20/20" trope. Not sure what the cure for that is.

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post #69 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
That's because HDR was not a thing. What can you say? Any time you buy any tech there's always going to be the risk that some new feature will result in regret. Especially when someone had to work to pay a premium and has emotional investment.

But how could one go back in time and say "wait for HDR" when there was no notion HDR was going to be a thing? That's the ole "hindsight is 20/20" trope. Not sure what the cure for that is.
A wise decision is to wait until the technology evolves. I'm not even sure 4K tv has evolved far enough for the normal consumer to purchase. Most of us with 4K tv's will be out of luck with ATSC 3.0, unless we buy an external tuner. Many of us will be out of luck with HDR10+ too as our tv's likely won't be able to handle that.
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post #70 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:24 PM
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Keep it coming, I love it.
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post #71 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:27 PM
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Because upscaling SD to "8k" makes it look better than using the same scaling algorithm and processing to scale it to "4k"? Oh wait, no... The extra pixels add nothing to the image at any sane seating distance relative to the size of the display because any useful information that could be extracted from the SD signal happened way before it got to "8k".
You don't understand how this new class of deep learning algorithms work. They do not extract information from the source signal. They synthesize and add new information to the signal. The scaling algorithms are trained on high resolution video to "learn" what the characteristics of textures and details are at full resolution and how those correspondences can be predicted from low resolution. When you apply this sort of algorithm to a low resolution source it actually creates new information based on those predictions. If you look at Samsung's technology reports, where they break the process apart into its components, they call this "detail creation". It's not just AI magic or smoke and mirrors. Whether you like the result is a whole different question.
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post #72 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodger Lodger View Post
The writer muses about the coming IMAX experience in one's home. Excuse me for snoring. I saw Dunkirk in a huge IMAX theater in Manhattan and this corpse couldn't reach the excitement of a 1940s newsreel. Something that should be of real concern is the demise of 3D TVs. I got back to Bwana Devil (1952) in my neighb. First impression: man, this is really dim. But we all know how far 3D has come, even on blu-ray. It's as if the big players announced they wouldn't print any poetry books any longer, and we're supposed to take this because they're allowed to do it. Hasn't TV technology become a utility, and if so, shouldn't it be regulated?
The only part of the IMAX experience I was considering to be important, at least in the context of the article, is how the screen fills your peripheral vision.

And just curious, isn't your dislike of Dunkirk due to some aspects(s) of the movie itself, as opposed to the qualities inherent to an IMAX presentation?

By the way, 3D looks GREAT when the screen fills your peripheral vision. Like with 3D IMAX presentations.

An 8K TV with a passive 3D filter would be a thing of beauty. I keep pointing out to TV companies that there's a pent up demand for a good 3D-capable TV, the first to offer one will likely clean up with everyone who is itching to upgrade and have 3D in the mix.

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post #73 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:36 PM
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Cool LOL as I said earlier....What a waste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Some people buy concept cars and don't drive them at all. Because they can afford it.

*Sure it can, but you have to get very close to the screen.

LOL as I said earlier....What a waste.
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post #74 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:38 PM
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I hope Mark doesn't own a cat. After all the hard work he puts in to help keep us informed of things to come, all he gets, for the most part, is a bunch of cheap sour pusses who are still saving their money as they coax a few more years out of their Proton or RCA or Zenith B&W 13" cathode ray tubes.

Blah, blah, blah. I'll own one. Yeah, that's right. Enjoy being a dinosaur. I'd rather be progressive and embrace new tech. If everyone was such a nattering nabob of negativity, we'd still be using flip phones. As I'm sure some of these slathering "no 8k tv in my lr" are still using.
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post #75 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL as I said earlier....What a waste.

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post #76 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:38 PM
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Looks nice but I'm still waiting for an affordable true 4K projector. By the time an affordable 8K projector comes around I'll probably be dead. No worries. I'm still happy with my 1080P projector for now. If it comes it comes.

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post #77 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks nice but I'm still waiting for an affordable true 4K projector. By the time an affordable 8K projector comes around I'll probably be dead. No worries. I'm still happy with my 1080P projector for now. If it comes it comes.
I'm sure projectors will "wobble" their way up to 8K somehow.
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post #78 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:44 PM
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I hope my 1080p Plasma will last another 7-8 years so I can upgrade to 8K OLED when it finally dies. I may just bypass 4K altogether.
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post #79 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:47 PM
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8K -- OK for larger screens cool -- bring it on.

Taking the long view, where is the tipping point? The industry has blithely crossed the point of diminishing returns and embraced forced obsolescence of legacy formats. Cool. Have to keep those factories busy making something.

So what is the upper limit of resolution? Infinite from a pure mathematical standpoint but displays are physical and that imposes some limits. As resolution goes up pixel size goes down, so maybe we should look at it from the standpoint of how small can we make a physical pixel? A single atom seems like a logical minimum. A single atom pixel may never be possible but it is even harder to conceive of a subatomic pixel element. So a single atom it is. An average atom's diameter is about 0.1 nm. So a 1 meter image would contain 1 x10 7 elements. To simplify the math consider a 1x1 meter screen -- that would give a total pixel count of 2 x10 7

I'm not sure how many 'K' that would be, but assuming screen resolution doubles every 4-5 years we have eons of escalating resolution ahead of us.

Oh boy.
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post #80 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 03:56 PM
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When I had my Pioneer Kuro 1080p plasma, I watched it 13' away, the 1080p picture was excellent using my Oppo 105 player. Now that I've downsized and had to put all my HT away in storage, I'm relegated to streaming videos from the TV/News networks on my 27" 4K Dell monitor (LCD based) sitting 2-3 feet away on my desk chair.

Streaming video quality (from the big broadcast and cable networks) is variable, but I can tell you that its HiDef-like from where I stand 95% of the time, except during commercials which are low rez in quality... But the picture is razor sharp as it can be during normal programming.

So, does that mean I'm getting true 720p/1080i streams from the networks which are then upscaled by my Nvidia graphics card to 4K? Or am I getting even more compressed streams that just happen to be pleasant to the eye, when upscaled to 4K?

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post #81 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:09 PM
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I'm flummoxed by the negative pushback. I have absolutely no problem with the increased resolution. I say keep going. I have no problem with companies pushing the envelope in advancement of technology. It doesn't mean I have to participate, but I have no problem with it.

Personally I would love a 200" projection screen with a short throw 8K projector that can hit 10K nits and is full HDR+ and Dolby Vision capable. Yes, I'm in la la crack land, but that would be incredible. 8K upsampling/scaling should look great on a big arse screen.
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post #82 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:24 PM
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One thing to keep in mind is new technology or cutting edge products, allow for higher profit margins to the manufacturers.

Once all of the companies make a 1080p TV for 300.00, their profits are slim.

Of course there is RnD with new technology, however my point is the TV manufactures couldn’t care less if there is content or not, they just want people to buy their TVs.

If you were buying a TV right now for 2k but for 2,500 you could buy an 8k, would you not buy the 8k? (Even if there was no content, many people would spend more to “future proof.”)

I wouldn’t hold back buying a 4K TV today, as it will take time for 8k prices to drop, but it will not be “decades” before 8k is the norm.
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post #83 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidML3 View Post
The only thing I do know is
......
3. PC Games can barely run 4k at 60FPS. GPU's just aren't powerful enough.
....
Well here a short 1min in-game clip showing that my RX570 got no problems handling 4k gaming smoothly. Unfortunately, after uploading, the quality of this clip degraded quite a bit.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AhMbLMEEM26ghkqG7pIWdfRe4TVm

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post #84 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:25 PM
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8K feels like the ppi push for phones and tablets. Companies are pushing this as a way to stave off consumer purchase drop off. Most reviews and people can barely distinguish 1080p from 4K at normal viewing distances for anything but the biggest screens and HDR and OLED is the bigger upgrade in picture quality vs increased resolution.

8K will likely come no matter what, which is fine, along with new HDMI standards, Blueray standards, compression, etc, but I personally won't upgrade a TV just for 8K. I'm going to wait for 256K man. Let's do it.
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post #85 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post
I'm flummoxed by the negative pushback. I have absolutely no problem with the increased resolution. I say keep going. I have no problem with companies pushing the envelope in advancement of technology. It doesn't mean I have to participate, but I have no problem with it.

Personally I would love a 200" projection screen with a short throw 8K projector that can hit 10K nits and is full HDR+ and Dolby Vision capable. Yes, I'm in la la crack land, but that would be incredible. 8K upsampling/scaling should look great on a big arse screen.
Give me 8k on my phone.... I'm sure that will set some people off in the thread.
I'm all for progress. I think people are so deadset on how they use their tech now, they don't realize that things actually can be better. I'm not sure if it's partly justifying what they have now, partly trying to make themselves not want the new stuff, and partly just hating the expensive things that some people buy, but I just love progress.

Bring on 8k. I just wanted it for PC gaming, but it's great to see the upscaling tech. That's quite interesting.

I'll never say no to a better display... Being against progress is becoming more prevalent it seems.
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post #86 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by nesto719 View Post
I’ve been saying this to friends now for a while, 4k is gonna be treated just like 720p TVs were . How quickly the manufactures skipped to 1080p
Seems to be 4K has some advantages over 8K like that 4K is a direct 4x multiple (2x width and height) so upscaling works well.
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post #87 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Be forewarned, the following picture may be a trigger for some videophiles... yes, even SD upscaling to 8K was shown:
SERIOUSLY? If that's how good 720p looks on an 8K TV, and you've seen it first hand, and believe it for what it is - I'd buy it simply for the upscaling capability, don't care about the 8K content! I have yet to be satisfied by any upscale of 720p on a 4K display. This is about a lot more than resolution it appears! SOLD!
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post #88 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
"Pure 4K viewing experience" = movies mastered in actual 4K, instead of 4K titles mastered in 2K.
You are flat out wrong to characterize a UHD release as something less than "pure" when the only master source is a 2K DI. Irresponsible. Sad.


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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

No such thing as "too many pixels" is a notion. It's similar to "a watch can't be too accurate." Now, pragmatically speaking of course you can have too many pixels, but the idea is if technology allows for greater pixel densities, as long as all else is equal (brightness/contrast/color/motion) there's not going to be a downside to it—better to have too many pixels than too few.
Frankly, it's BS and if you don't know it and can't retract it, then shame on AVS. Again, irresponsible.

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post #89 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
SERIOUSLY? If that's how good 720p looks on an 8K TV, and you've seen it first hand, and believe it for what it is - I'd buy it simply for the upscaling capability, don't care about the 8K content! I have yet to be satisfied by any upscale of 720p on a 4K display. This is about a lot more than resolution it appears! SOLD!
480p, actually it's 720 x 480 source footage...

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post #90 of 287 Old 01-30-2018, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
480p, actually it's 720 x 480 source footage...
Oh my, indeed. I just saw that "720" and brain-farted. (Can I say that here...?? ) - WOW. That is seriously impressive from the pic. Now, that's what I call upscaling.

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