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post #121 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 01:41 AM
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Does anybody know the native resolution of celluloid film?
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post #122 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 01:47 AM
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if UHD movies aren't really shot in 4k, why bother?

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post #123 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu View Post
Does anybody know the native resolution of celluloid film?
Depends strongly on film, particularly its sensitivity, camera quality, filming conditions.

Also, depends which resolution we're looking for:
1) Scanning resolution that loses no detail in the film
2) Smallest resolvable black and white feature size
3) Required pixel count for equal sharpness

The first is high, about 5K-6K, but of little value to the end user.
The second is the most meaningful definition. Great film with great lenses, on a reasonably distant scene in bright daylight, will resolve about 3.5K. Same quality hardware in a dark scene, maybe 1.5K. Good film, just over 2K in daylight and less than 1K in the night.

On the third metric, a perfect 2K digital image, drawn, rendered or downsampled from a very high-res, will generally be sharper than 35mm film. But it will also be sharper than a 3K digital sensor; it takes fewer display pixels to render an image than sensor pixels to capture it.
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post #124 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoboBrazil View Post
I doubt the jump from 4k to 8k would even be noticeable for most people. My girlfriend can't even tell the difference between 1080p and 4k :P
If you have a TV that can get sufficiently bright enough and your girlfriend cant see the difference in an HDR blu ray disc and a standard Blu ray disc you need to RUN to the eye doctor for an exam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Funny, because if you buy a "8k" TV now all your most certainly getting is an overpriced "4k" (3840x2160) TV. So, pay a premium for an already obsolete TV for what?

Lets see how this went last time around... Lets find some owners who bought the very first generation of "4k" TVs and ask them how they like watching WCG, HDR from UHD Blu-ray or streaming on their "4k" TVs. Oh wait, my bad, they can't... Their TVs don't have WCG, HDR, HDCP 2.2, or even a single HDMI 2.0 input. They just bought expensive 1080p sets that displays 1080p content with 3840x2160 pixels.
And that is where we are in the A/V market today
Something new every year...
Planned obsolescence

The good news is that the prices of the outgoing products that were introduced in the last 12 months fall like a stone...
Most often I can buy products...at the end of the life cycle...for 50% off what they were selling for just months prior

This is a very expensive hobby if you are an early adopter...and the products really have extremely limited resale after any technology evolution

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post #125 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
which is interesting because the number of true 4k content that is not catrom upscaled is so slim...
there are more than enough uhd BD downscale and upscale comparison.

so feel free to catch one of these to show me the day night difference. which should be so so easy for you.
Been there done that - way ahead of you.
I get all kinds of native 4K content with an HTPC. HTPCs allow a myriad of ways to test MadVR, UHD-BD rips, 4K stills, test images, text, web browsers, photos, gaming etc in very quick A/B comparisons.
Was doing this years ago. Shoot, just running the desktop, Media Center or Kodi’s interface at 1080p vs 2160p is night and day. You’d have to be legally blind not to see this.
You can resolve pixels very easily on 75+ screens. The rule is, if you can see a single pixel, you have lost detail at said display size/viewing distance.

I say bring on the big 85+ 8K screens. Make them mainstream. Bring the cost down fast to mainstream prices, so the 100”+ screens are reachable for those of us that want them.

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post #126 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 05:10 AM
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8K TV is Coming: What You Need to Know

need HDMI 2.1 .... major change!! New cables, long runs a PIA.



https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/

For all those building Home Theaters and putting HDMI cables in your walls/ceilings. Make sure you have a method of replacing them, ie, put them in Conduit.

There is the upcoming HDMI 2.1 spec, and it will require a NEW cable. Q4 2018 certified cable availability is best guess.

Q: What is an Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable?

A: The Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable is the first cable defined by the HDMI Forum. Ultra High Speed HDMI Cables comply with stringent specifications designed to ensure support for high resolution video modes such as 4Kp50/60/100/120 and 8Kp50/60 as well as new features such as eARC and VRR. Ultra High Speed HDMI Cables exceed the requirements of the latest international EMI standards to significantly reduce the probability of interference with wireless services such as Wi-Fi.

Q: Is this cable required for delivering HDMI 2.1 Specification features?

A: The cable is the best way to ensure that high-bandwidth dependent features are delivered including the enhanced video and audio performance, and accounting for the new EMI characteristics

Q: Will [email protected] or [email protected] require a new cable?

A: Yes, in order to ensure performance and compatibility the Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable is required.

How many times have we all seen this image recycled?
720 vs 1080
1080 vs 3840
Now
3840 vs 7680
Kool aid baby

Last edited by mtbdudex; 01-31-2018 at 05:15 AM.
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post #127 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
if UHD movies aren't really shot in 4k, why bother?
HDR...if you have a capable TV with enough brightness capability


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post #128 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
need HDMI 2.1 .... major change!! New cables, long runs a PIA.



https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/

For all those building Home Theaters and putting HDMI cables in your walls/ceilings. Make sure you have a method of replacing them, ie, put them in Conduit.

There is the upcoming HDMI 2.1 spec, and it will require a NEW cable. Q4 2018 certified cable availability is best guess.

Q: What is an Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable?

A: The Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable is the first cable defined by the HDMI Forum. Ultra High Speed HDMI Cables comply with stringent specifications designed to ensure support for high resolution video modes such as 4Kp50/60/100/120 and 8Kp50/60 as well as new features such as eARC and VRR. Ultra High Speed HDMI Cables exceed the requirements of the latest international EMI standards to significantly reduce the probability of interference with wireless services such as Wi-Fi.

Q: Is this cable required for delivering HDMI 2.1 Specification features?

A: The cable is the best way to ensure that high-bandwidth dependent features are delivered including the enhanced video and audio performance, and accounting for the new EMI characteristics

Q: Will [email protected] or [email protected] require a new cable?

A: Yes, in order to ensure performance and compatibility the Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable is required.

How many times have we all seen this image recycled?
720 vs 1080
1080 vs 3840
Now
3840 vs 7680
Kool aid baby
That picture is deceiving

How far away would a person have to be or how big does that image need to be for the human eye to be able to notice the differences as portrayed in that picture?

I am betting with a 65" screen at say 6-8 feet away the human eye could see no difference

Warren
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post #129 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 05:40 AM
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Good marketing knows no bounds, er, viewing distances.
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post #130 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 05:44 AM
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I’d be very skeptical of the first HDMI 2.1 cables. I think the industry learned its lessons on the HDMI 2.0a (4K/60/4:4:4/18Gbps) cable fiasco, but few will have the capability/means to keep the cable makers honest when the 48Gbps cables first arrive.
Gamers will be the first, just as we were back in 2014, but I’d only be buying from reputable manus until the new cables get “sorted.”

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post #131 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
Been there done that - way ahead of you.
I get all kinds of native 4K content with an HTPC. HTPCs allow a myriad of ways to test MadVR, UHD-BD rips, 4K stills, test images, text, web browsers, photos, gaming etc in very quick A/B comparisons.
Was doing this years ago. Shoot, just running the desktop, Media Center or Kodi’s interface at 1080p vs 2160p is night and day. You’d have to be legally blind not to see this.
You can resolve pixels very easily on 75+ screens. The rule is, if you can see a single pixel, you have lost detail at said display size/viewing distance.

I say bring on the big 85+ 8K screens. Make them mainstream. Bring the cost down fast to mainstream prices, so the 100”+ screens are reachable for those of us that want them.
i'm not here to say that UHD BD is worthless or if there is no difference... but to make one thing very clear i'm talking about the current UHD BD which are usually not worth the resolution.

but to make this a little bit more funny.
a computer is the best way to test it.
so why don't you go to windows scaling and set it to 100 % instead of the default 200-300 % of windows 10.
good luck reading this forum this way i'm not saying is impossible but you need to get really close and the text used here isn't the fines details possible with UHD.

and yes computer games clearly benefit from the resolution.

and screen size doesn't matter only the relative distance to the screen.

but here you go with the day night difference:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post54983374

and again i'm not saying it is nothing only that's it is not much...
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post #132 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Maybe you need buy a better TV
Sony TV with a decent picture, not the TV. Maybe I've just got higher standards or unrealistic expectations. But every showroom these days looks like crap too unless they are showing 1080p or 4K. Lower resolutions like cable broadcasts, garbage, anywhere I go.

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post #133 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
That picture is deceiving

How far away would a person have to be or how big does that image need to be for the human eye to be able to notice the differences as portrayed in that picture?

I am betting with a 65" screen at say 6-8 feet away the human eye could see no difference

Warren
You have to be much closer than that. Try for yourself by placing your face a few inches away from a 4k screen. Do the same with a 1080p TV too if you have one. Slowly pull back until you realize that to actually see pixels (of which there are over eight million on a 4k screen) you have to be so close that you can only fit a tiny percentage of the image into your field of view.

And to be clear, if you're not seeing stair-stepped jagged blocks for supposedly straight, well defined lines, then you're not seeing the pixels yet, so get in even closer.
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post #134 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyhuhn View Post
i'm not here to say that UHD BD is worthless or if there is no difference... but to make one thing very clear i'm talking about the current UHD BD which are usually not worth the resolution.

but to make this a little bit more funny.
a computer is the best way to test it.
so why don't you go to windows scaling and set it to 100 % instead of the default 200-300 % of windows 10.
good luck reading this forum this way i'm not saying is impossible but you need to get really close and the text used here isn't the fines details possible with UHD.

and yes computer games clearly benefit from the resolution.

and screen size doesn't matter only the relative distance to the screen.

but here you go with the day night difference:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post54983374

and again i'm not saying it is nothing only that's it is not much...
Again, way, way ahead of you on this one.
I’ve been running W10 on multiple 4K displays/PCs since 2014.
2 nearfield @ 100% scaling, 75 @ 150% scaling. Razor sharp and crisp text on every one.
1080p was a joke both nearfield and farfield viewing. This is why screen size still matters vs just viewing distance.
UHD BDs are absolutely the real deal if they’re correctly mastered native 4K, or the upscale has been done properly.
Go compare Dunkirk BD vs UHD BD on a big, bright panel and tell me UHD BD/HDR isn’t worth it.
And yes, panel size does matter - it’s not all numbers and graphs.
Go look and spend some time with some proper setups, or buy one of your own.

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post #135 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
Again, way, way ahead of you on this one.
I’ve been running W10 on multiple 4K displays/PCs since 2014.
2 nearfield @ 100% scaling, 75 @ 150% scaling. Razor sharp and crisp text on every one.
1080p was a joke both nearfield and farfield viewing. This is why screen size still matters vs just viewing distance.
UHD BDs are absolutely the real deal if they’re correctly mastered native 4K, or the upscale has been done properly.
Go compare Dunkirk BD vs UHD BD on a big, bright panel and tell me UHD BD/HDR isn’t worth it.
And yes, panel size does matter - it’s not all numbers and graphs.
Go look and spend some time with some proper setups, or buy one of your own.
so the terrible windows 10 scaling is now crisp sharp?
and the only point is if you can read it easily...

but you are way ahead of me without knowing anything i'm using.
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post #136 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 07:08 AM
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8K TV is Coming: What You Need to Know

Quote:
Originally Posted by super56k View Post
You have to be much closer than that. Try for yourself by placing your face a few inches away from a 4k screen. Do the same with a 1080p TV too if you have one. Slowly pull back until you realize that to actually see pixels (of which there are over eight million on a 4k screen) you have to be so close that you can only fit a tiny percentage of the image into your field of view.



And to be clear, if you're not seeing stair-stepped jagged blocks for supposedly straight, well defined lines, then you're not seeing the pixels yet, so get in even closer.


Actually for projectors this should be obvious to each and every person who does their setup and focus, etc.

When you do that, a grid typically is shown with lines in a pattern 2 pixels wide , and you need to be close enough to the screen to see the pixels then focus to get them crisp.

That’s the minimum viewing distance real world .

Old pict from 2008, 1080p and my 130” diag curved scope screen during its build, as I tested it with anamorphic lens.


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Last edited by mtbdudex; 01-31-2018 at 07:11 AM.
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post #137 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWhip View Post
Just another reason to hold onto my money and skip 4K altogether.
Just another reason to maybe get out of the home theater hobby altogether.

I'm still stuck at 1080p and even get dvds to store on my server, because honestly who needs a ~25GB file of a comedy? One good thing about 8K IMO is that it will hopefully drive down the $ of better equipped 4K sets. And, I'd really only be into 4K for the console gaming experience. And, I think 8K would be great for a pc monitor.

Instead of higher resolutions, what I WOULD LOVE TO SEE is technology that would improve ghosting, light bleeding, dark corners (looking at you Vizio), off-axis picture degradation, and other general abnormalities plaguing tvs currently.
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post #138 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
If you have a TV that can get sufficiently bright enough and your girlfriend cant see the difference in an HDR blu ray disc and a standard Blu ray disc you need to RUN to the eye doctor for an exam



And that is where we are in the A/V market today
Something new every year...
Planned obsolescence

The good news is that the prices of the outgoing products that were introduced in the last 12 months fall like a stone...
Most often I can buy products...at the end of the life cycle...for 50% off what they were selling for just months prior

This is a very expensive hobby if you are an early adopter...and the products really have extremely limited resale after any technology evolution

Warren
Agree 100%!

I'm still using my 1080p ST50 because:
1. It looks great with the content I'm viewing(OTA broadcasts,Netflix,Amazon Prime,BluRays,etc.)
2.I'm having a difficult time deciding on something to replace it with.I'll probably get an 4K OLED when the price comes down enough.

Bring on 8K.
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post #139 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 07:49 AM
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8K TV is Coming: What You Need to Know

Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
......
And that is where we are in the A/V market today

Something new every year...

Planned obsolescence

Agreed, I post this now and then ...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #140 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidML3 View Post
The only thing I do know is
1. There is barely any content for 4k.
2. Tv broadcasts are still stuck in 720p
3. PC Games can barely run 4k at 60FPS. GPU's just aren't powerful enough.
4. There is barely any 4k playback devices
5. Did I mention there is barely any 4k content?

8k just isn't feasible and justifiable. It won't be until another decade until this takes hold.

4k tv have been out since around 2012 maybe and it took 6 years for it to go mainstream still with limited content. Maybe another 3 years until its on broadcasts and cable.
I have all the 4K content I ever wanted from my two 4K Roku boxes connected to my 4K TVs that also have 4K UHD blu-ray players along with 4K movies on Netflix and Amazon Prime. It's now 2018 and most large screen TVs made are 4K UHD and most smartphones like my LG V20 shoot 4K video. My Panasonic GH5 , GH4, Sony RX10 III, a6300, FDR-X3000 and Yuneec drone all shoot 4K video. Does Florida ban 4K content and devices ?
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post #141 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 08:00 AM
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I am currently basking in the 8K hate of this thread. Bring it on, I says. I've only been an AV enthusiast for ~23 years (pretty early in my journey, I reckon), but in that time I have heard naysayers at every stage of evolution. Be it 4-head VCRs, LD vs DVD, DTS vs DD, interlaced vs progressive scan DVD players, EDTV vs HDTV, 720p vs 1080p, 1080p vs 4K, 4K vs 8K, arc minutes, seating distances, mountains of technical documents, presentations, consumer surveys, and pointless ongoing debate. Despite all of this, technology marches on. Higher resolution, better sensors, better scanning, more powerful rendering, more bandwidth, more color depth, more color volume, better dynamic range, more frames per second... none of these things are static. I love it.
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post #142 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 08:01 AM
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i do worry about some of the comments on here i'm sure a lot of you are anti-technology 8k is coming and there's nothing you can do to stop it .i remember a lot of the same people saying why do we need 4k and yet here we are with our 4k tv watching and enjoying 4k content .
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post #143 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
That picture is deceiving

How far away would a person have to be or how big does that image need to be for the human eye to be able to notice the differences as portrayed in that picture?

I am betting with a 65" screen at say 6-8 feet away the human eye could see no difference

Warren

EXACTLY I sit at 15 ft and my 80 in 1080 with a Darbee set is more than perfect I cant see spending 8 grand on a set or more in 4k that would be bigger just so i would notice the difference
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post #144 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 08:54 AM
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If you give me good movie content, that is not compressed streamed crap, then sure why not. Otherwise no thanks.

1080 content looked best on a 1080 display, 480 looked fine on a tube, 480 is basically unwatchable on the OLED. 1080, well 720, from Comcast looks quite terrible, 1080 from the Oppo is quite good, and 4K looks perfect. If I move to a 8K display, then I make everything but 8K content look worse, and it doesn't matter how much image processing you throw at that content, it still doesn't look as good as when displayed native.
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post #145 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 09:23 AM
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I respectfully think that rather than such a high resolution, that we know requires huge screens to be fully appreciated, several of us would prefer to see more attention devoted to other aspects of image quality that are neglected. Uniformity, near black details, motion resolution, peak light emission for HDR material and so on and so forth.

It's depressing, instead, to see the industry chasing a bigger number simply because that's more easy to market the hell out of it. Because, IMHO, that is the *only* reason they are going that way.

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post #146 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 09:59 AM
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It's also easier to deliver on that number. Increasing the resolution is a straightforward, textbook, straight-out-of-college engineering task.
To go through the other challenges:

Uniformity - quality management challenge. However, the cornerstone of QM is that improving quality reduces cost through reducing recalls. As long as the public accepts screens as is - and it has no choice, because LCD is worse - the ROI of uniformity improvement remains low.
Near black details - software problem, easily solved via calibration. Requires no resources to solve, just an executive decision.
Hardware motion handling - rocket science. Complicated and lacks a known research direction. If anything, CRT's and plasma's low persistence was a fortunate fluke, a side effect of the technology.
Software motion handling - being worked on, with massive resources, and the results are showing. A decade ago, even the best motion smoothing was an ugly thing that looked unnatural and lost as much resolution in slow scenes as it gained in fast scenes.
Peak light emission - more rocket science.
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post #147 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 10:00 AM
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Sigh...

We have sub-par 1080p now...

UHD (mistakenly called 4k) that is streamed basically equals blu-ray 1080p quality, sometimes not even that. As it's all severely bit-starved.

And now we have people talking about 8k as though it's going to happen soon?

LOL, the paltry UHD we have now is pretty lack luster. Not to mention the lack of movies/sources/cameras/feeds/mastering for 8k. It'll be many years before this comes mainstream.


How about can we get ATSC 3.0? Lets do an article on that bring up awareness. We need that to get UHD to be mainstream 1st...

Granted I think up-scaling on 8k once the video processing get faster/better will be great since you can't see the pixels. But really for today HDR is where it's at...
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post #148 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
...other aspects of image quality that are neglected. Uniformity, near black details, motion resolution, peak light emission for HDR material and so on and so forth.
Hear, hear. Decreasing display persistence is needed. Either by BFI/strobing techniques (flicker) or extra-frames techniques (flickerless).

Currently, even [email protected] (4ms persistence) versus [email protected] (1ms persistence) is shown to have a much bigger and more noticeable difference than 4K versus 8K at the moment.

For those currently unaware, Blur Busters Law: The Amazing Journey To Future 1000 Hz Displays and its referenced true-480Hz display tests. There is a vicious cycle effect where increasing resolution demands lower persistence, to reduce the clarity difference between static images and moving images.

Bring 8K on. But focus on improving motion resolution first!

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Last edited by Mark Rejhon; 01-31-2018 at 10:22 AM.
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post #149 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 11:14 AM
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Exclamation Stop it already!

No point in increasing the resolution above 4k for the standard home television.

Why don't they evolve the technology by producing holographic televisions to finally escape the 2D tv world. Lays flat producing a 8k 3d image above its surface. What's taking so long!
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post #150 of 287 Old 01-31-2018, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitbull0669 View Post
EXACTLY I sit at 15 ft and my 80 in 1080 with a Darbee set is more than perfect I cant see spending 8 grand on a set or more in 4k that would be bigger just so i would notice the difference
I sit over 16' away from a 10 year old rear projection 1080p TV and would love a 70"-75" 4K Tv just for the bigger screen not necessary for 4K, but for a bigger screen. I joked with my wife and said I could forget about building a theater in our basement and move up our 120" screen and Epson 2040 and she said HELL NO! I just wish I could talk her into a new bigger TV, because as I get older the picture seems to get smaller and harder to see from over 16' away. In my make shift theater I sit 11' away from the 120" screen.
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