Samsung Launches 2018 QLED and 4K TVs - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Seriously! The only people that go inside my home are three or four very close friends and the cleaning lady ...
OK, and @JWhip . He's the witness for the forum. He just said he'll do it. Brave man.
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post #272 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 04:26 PM
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Samsung is not even talking about the carbon nano-tubes (google Vantablack to read about carbon nanotubes) that are doing the light absorbing here (I know, I asked the engineers when I was in Korea some months ago previewing this stuff), I thought it's one of the most key features which is why I brought it up in my video but Scott Cohen kinda punted on that and went with more generic comments about the AR filter.
That is pretty impressive ,We have to thank the other tech for pushing Samsung to this level of performance.From the videos the blacks look inky like Oled in a bright environment. When we will start to see this display at the stores? I want to see how it looks in person.

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post #273 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 04:43 PM
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In the oled section they are even dismissive how the higher peak brightness of a z9d can help hdr content compared to an oled. i suggest you to take this post over there and see how they jump upon you
No one should doubt that the Z9D and even your 930E have tangible benefits over an OLED with their higher nit levels. But there are also tangible benefits that OLED displays offer with HDR such as precise control of luminance levels. You have first hand experience with haloing and blooming with HDR content from watching your 930E.
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post #274 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 05:06 PM
 
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Because that's how the math works. That's what HDR10 can handle. Therefore, that's the spec. Not all HDR10 is mastered to 1000 nits, it's a choice.

"by that logic, oleds are crap TV's for hdr, they cant even do 1000 nits yet."

There's no logic at work aside from the math and the fact that HDR10 accommodates up to 10,000 nits. Period.

Granted currently HDR10 maxes out at 4000 nits, just like DV.

Oh and that the Sony 10,000 nit display makes all OLEDs (and LCDs) I've seen look like... what's that word you used??? [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]
I'm not from the 'bright enough for me' group that you find in the oled subsection, I know my sony x930e provides a tangible benefit in that it doesn't have to resort to compressing bright highlight detail /tone mapping on the level of oleds.

but the 10000 requirement to see hdr as it was intended to is simply impractical for many years to come. not just 10000 nits, you need a display that covers the full spectrump of th rec 2020/bt 2020 colorspace to see all the shades hdr intended you to. and with dv we should also be watching on displays that are native 12 bit.

that's all very far off and difficult to have in a consumer tv. both due to technical challenges and cost

With lcd's , the issue of going 10000 nits is that the higher you go with peak brightness, the harder blooming becomes to control. you can still see blooming in hdr content on a sony z9d (~1800 nits), for a 10000 nit display, you'd need something special to control the blooming and light spilling into the adjacent pixels. (what sony showed at ces was just a prototype)

with oleds, the issue is the technology doesn't allow for very bright displays, it is still under 1000, and when they move to top emission, they'll get better with peak brightness but not anywhere close to something like 10000.

that's the technical aspect, the cost is the other one, could they make a 10000 nit display at consumer prices any time soon? I don't think so.
Fyi even oleds bloom believe it or not. Its just a side effect of extremely high contrast.

Nobody really knew it until recently because we didn't have self emissive displays capable of such high levels of precisely brightness.

There realistically is the potential that the Samsung q9 may bloom less than an oled due to how it handles light reflection within the panel and light leakage. Granted I haven't seen it, but the concept *is* legit and it is impressive that Samsung is trying to tackle issues that even self emissive can benefit from.
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post #275 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Fyi even oleds bloom believe it or not. Its just a side effect of extremely high contrast.

Nobody really knew it until recently because we didn't have self emissive displays capable of such high levels of precisely brightness.

There realistically is the potential that the Samsung q9 may bloom less than an oled due to how it handles light reflection within the panel and light leakage. Granted I haven't seen it, but the concept *is* legit and it is impressive that Samsung is trying to tackle issues that even self emissive can benefit from.
I think that effect is sourced from our eyes, a high quality camera should show the adjacent pixels are not blooming.

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post #276 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 05:26 PM
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^^^^But the bloom looks different because is from outside and I thought that it was just our vision. The question is how much light from the backlight can this filter hide till it start to become visible.

The material is super strong but we don't know the % of the material that is on this filter.


Now this TV in a bright environment beats the pants off the Z9D and I would say that it should beat the Z9D in a dark environment.

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post #277 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Fyi even oleds bloom believe it or not. Its just a side effect of extremely high contrast.

Nobody really knew it until recently because we didn't have self emissive displays capable of such high levels of precisely brightness.

There realistically is the potential that the Samsung q9 may bloom less than an oled due to how it handles light reflection within the panel and light leakage. Granted I haven't seen it, but the concept *is* legit and it is impressive that Samsung is trying to tackle issues that even self emissive can benefit from.
I think that effect is sourced from our eyes, a high quality camera should show the adjacent pixels are not blooming.
Part of it is from our eyes, yes. But there's also light reflecting from.within the panel on OLED as well.
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post #278 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 05:37 PM
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The higher brightness of that TV is no good if it can't really pull off OLED-like blacks. Z9D was great for its time but not there's a new generation of LCDs, and not just from Samsung. Everyone knows that LCDs have struggled with deep shadows and blacks, but there is also been undeniable progress in terms of FALD implementation.

To that end, if we are going to discuss a consumer product, the Samsung Q9S with its 10,000 zones and 2000 nits and full DCI/P3 gamut is the one to discuss. Of course everybody's distracted by the fact it's 8K but the real strength of that TV is it does not have to fudge anything whatsoever when showing HDR10 content mastered to 1000 nits.

I'm in a enviable position, I think, because I'm typing this on a 65" LG G7 OLED and will have a 2018 Q9F arrive next week and a LG C8 the week after. It'll be nice to be able to compare this stuff in person, side-by-side, in my own home. Wish I was getting a Q9S too, of course, but I somehow doubt it.
I would have preferred that they sent you a 88" Q9. All these tiny sets don't do anyone any good
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post #279 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I would have preferred that they sent you a 88" Q9. All these tiny sets don't do anyone any good
Maybe we can start a petition. That's certainly what I would prefer as well!

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post #280 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 05:53 PM
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Listed but None in stock yesterday
I can’t find any Samsung 2018 tv listed at all on Amazon
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post #281 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 05:59 PM
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I can’t find any Samsung 2018 tv listed at all on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-QN65Q...6PF87W3W20VGSH
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post #282 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 06:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by venus933 View Post
No one should doubt that the Z9D and even your 930E have tangible benefits over an OLED with their higher nit levels. But there are also tangible benefits that OLED displays offer with HDR such as precise control of luminance levels. You have first hand experience with haloing and blooming with HDR content from watching your 930E.
i have only spotted ocassional blooming on the black bars with letterboxed hdr content, but I mitigate the perception of it using bias lighting, I watch in a dark room environment with bias light on , a lightstrip attached to the back of the tv set to 6500k. I don't see any other of these 'faults' oled fans get vocal about. I cant say about view angles , I always have to sit in the center. the 930e can make the black bars very black with its local dimming activated (minus occasional bloom). it's not those 'grey bars' that oled fans would tell you that lcd's have. so glad I saw the TV's in person and made my decision, I was initially interested in an oled, now I don't want it (at least until a pure rgb oled minus all the flaws of lg's woled tech comes up..but if and when that happens, we might be close to consumer micro led's).

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post #283 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 06:07 PM
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I think that effect is sourced from our eyes, a high quality camera should show the adjacent pixels are not blooming.
This is 100% correct!
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Curious what the 82 pricing will be?
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post #285 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 06:09 PM
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If Samsung is still too cheap to use a non-pwm dimming technology then these displays are going to be a huge failure. I can't stand the motion artifacts that arise from low pwm frequencies, and the headaches that follow. Luckily rtings posts this information in their write-ups, so I will be waiting to see their review of these new Samsung LCD's.

EDIT: For anyone not aware of this issue, visit this website and scroll down to the "PWM" section to get a short explanation and a picture of the issue: https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/lcd-motion-artifacts/ This affected the 2017 Samsung televisions, and it will most likely affect the 2018 sets as well.
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post #286 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 06:15 PM
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Man was hoping that new Qleds would be brought into the show... I need to see this display as the reports are hyping me up lol.
I agree with Imagic if set does 1000 nits DV is kinda mute point. I hope the HDR+ can be run like LG(Dynamic contrast low for HDR10 activates Dynamic metadata) .... DV tries to resolve up to 4000 nits IMO if HDR10+ does this it will be very close to DV HDR.. Deep OLED blacks, 2000 nits ,100% color volume, and little to no blooming .... OLed Competitor Opinions? Q9S IMO will be though!!! However it will cost the bank!
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post #287 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
If Samsung is still too cheap to use a non-pwm dimming technology then these displays are going to be a huge failure. I can't stand the motion artifacts that arise from low pwm frequencies, and the headaches that follow. Luckily rtings posts this information in their write-ups, so I will be waiting to see their review of these new Samsung LCD's.

EDIT: For anyone not aware of this issue, visit this website and scroll down to the "PWM" section to get a short explanation and a picture of the issue: https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/lcd-motion-artifacts/ This affected the 2017 Samsung televisions, and it will most likely affect the 2018 sets as well.
They would have to be pwm dimming technology thats how the DC rail volts are regulated in a digital TV but there could be on/off or variable algorithms done well or not.

TV's haven't had linear DC power for decades.

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post #288 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 06:22 PM
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They would have to be pwm dimming technology thats how the DC rail volts are regulated in a digital TV but there could be on/off or variable.
They don't HAVE to use PWM dimming. The issue is that is costs a lot more to engineer a non-PWM dimming backlight that uses LED's because if you just use voltage to dim the LED (non-PWM), it changes other qualities of the light, such as color temperature. If you look at Sony televisions, they use PWM at much higher frequencies (720hz+). This nearly eliminates the issue for most people, but not entirely.
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For reference, the 2017 Q9F used PWM-dimming at 120hz. That is not only extremely noticeable (and bothersome) to a large majority of the population, but completely unacceptable for a television that was priced so high.
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They don't HAVE to use PWM dimming. The issue is that is costs a lot more to engineer a non-PWM dimming backlight that uses LED's because if you just use voltage to dim the LED (non-PWM), it changes other qualities of the light, such as color temperature. If you look at Sony televisions, they use PWM at much higher frequencies (720hz+). This nearly eliminates the issue for most people, but not entirely.
Again TV's haven't had constant voltage linear DC power for decades


https://www.controldesign.com/articl...y-vs-switched/

To your point a 750 Hz PWM to the LED should be smoother to our vision than a 120 Hz PWM to folks sensitive to flicker

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^^^^But the bloom looks different because is from outside and I thought that it was just our vision. The question is how much light from the backlight can this filter hide till it start to become visible.

The material is super strong but we don't know the % of the material that is on this filter.


Now this TV in a bright environment beats the pants off the Z9D and I would say that it should beat the Z9D in a dark environment.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. if we were talking about the q9s, then perhaps but the q9f despite employing some new techniques for backlight control would still have fewer LD zones than the 600+ that the z9d has (rumors are pointing to 480 zones on the q9f). with color volume and viewing angles the q9f should beat the z9d but contrast and motion, we should wait for comparison reviews. Samsung's motion performance has not been good, they'll need very good motion on this tv to compete with the sony X1 xtreme's motion which is one of the best in the industry right now.
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post #292 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 06:35 PM
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..... to compete with the sony X1 xtreme's motion which is one of the best in the industry right now.
Not one of the best, the best, but the X1 Ultimate blows it away, except the X1 Ultimate is not available for the general public as far as I know.
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post #293 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 06:40 PM
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Again TV's haven't had constant voltage linear DC power for decades

https://www.controldesign.com/articl...y-vs-switched/
You are confusing two completely separate things.

EDIT: Instead of taking the time to write information that is readily available on the internet, here is proof that non-pwm dimming is possible: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/w800c Again, I am referring to the method used to dim the LED backlight of the television.

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A detailed, objective review of the q9 may be found at thebaltimorepost.com/gled-tv-samsungs
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Not one of the best, the best, but the X1 Ultimate blows it away, except the X1 Ultimate is not available for the general public as far as I know.
it will be later in the year, the z9f would be the first tv to launch with the x1 ultimate processor which was demoed at ces this year.
I said one of the best because I don't leave out Panasonic from the fray. I don't think you get Panasonic TV's any longer in America but they are available elsewhere, on 24hz movie content, Panasonic's motion interpolation works better, removes judder but retains the natural movie feel.

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You are confusing two completely separate things.

EDIT: Instead of taking the time to write information that is readily available on the internet, here is proof that non-pwm dimming is possible: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/w800c
they list 300Hz as a good value

let us argue that a 750 Hz PWM DC rail to the LED should be smoother to our vision than a 120 Hz PWM DC rail to folks sensitive to flicker

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let us argue that a 750 Hz PWM DC rail to the LED should be smoother to our vision than a 120 Hz PWM DC rail to folks sensitive to flicker
Or no PWM dimming at all, which is entirely possible, and used today in many displays that use LED backlights.
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One thing that's notable is that starting in 2018, Samsung has no 1080p TVs (or 720p) TVs in its lineup. 4K is the baseline.
Am I right in assuming they will still be selling small TVs, just no updates to them this year (and possibly future years)? I'm sure they don't make a lot of money in that range but I'd be surprised if they abandoned the small TV shelves at retailers entirely. I don't think they had an under 40" K-series TV either, but they sold J and H models, and released some small M-series models last year.

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post #299 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 07:03 PM
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Or no PWM dimming at all, which is entirely possible, and used today in many displays that use LED backlights.
sure if we are talking about he same thing thats a constant voltage PWM DC rail but you could use an expensive and inefficient regulated linear power supply with a transformer but thats inefficient.

BTW i didn't mean to conflate FALD into this beyond on/off zones

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Shots of LG and Samsung review units side by side are not gonna happen, I don't wish to disappoint but it's not practical, politically tenable, nor do I desire to referee the resulting discussions.

I don't even plan to do deeply technical reviews anymore. People are ridiculous getting hung up on this or that and then attacking. It's absurd. I'm referring folks to rtings.com and reviewed.com, sites where they can compare measurements to many other TVs anyhow, which is something I cannot provide given that I do not review a ton of TVs.

I'm gonna focus on unboxing, setup, and hands-on first impressions, mostly.

As for inviting people over... I hate to say it but unless I take a vacation and spend it doing that, there's no time to have a demo-GTG. That's before getting into things like I live in a city, what my wife would say, what my pets would think, etc. - for various reasons it's not gonna work.

Well, maybe @JWhip will stop by... he's always welcome and in fact he asked.

I mean, sounds fun but a scheduled GTG is not gonna happen. Perhaps if I move to a larger place someday that would be viable... as it stands it is not.

And that's 2018, folks.
Fair enough. not easy inviting strangers over, but the idea of Jwip is a good 1! So Kudos!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
Seriously! The only people that go inside my home are three or four very close friends and the cleaning lady ...


The idea actually came from something that Mark did last year. He had an open invitation to calibrate anyones Q7 for free as part of an experiment that lived near him in the Philly area. Maybe it was just Marks swift move to get into some peoples homes and mooch their dinners and play with their pets So in a way, inviting people to see this setup was sort of a reverse experiment but having a house full can definitely make it an issue. Unfortunately there were no takers to Marks offer because the Q7 at the time did not have many owners due to some pretty bad reports of the edge lighting making the picture not worth the money.

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