Samsung Launches 2018 QLED and 4K TVs - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
I do not think the Q8 will compare to OLED. Lets say for a moment that the Q9 is as good as OLED, maybe 5 or 10% better, which I doubt would be the case but you never know right? Lets look at the pricing on the street now, the answer becomes very clear very fast. Also there are many who would not even consider buying a set unless it was Dolby Vision.
Thank you for your insight and I definitely agree. As of now im about 95% set on an OLED, maybe even higher. Im coming from a Pio Kuro plasma and I think an OLED is a good evolution of that type of set. It having Dolby Vision is huge too yes. Im excited to read reviews and info on the Q8s and Q9s, just in case they are Z9D contenders but I doubt it. Just wanna make sure no stone is left unturned.

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post #242 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 11:00 AM
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Disappointed by the "one box". Wish there were a single hdmi port on the back of the tv.
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post #243 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
And frankly, nothing I've seen from any display ever has looked as real as the 10,000-nit prototype Sony showed at CES, which was designed to "fully" render what HDR10 is technically capable of delivering.

.
I would like to see one of those for sure

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post #244 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew67 View Post
Disappointed by the "one box". Wish there were a single hdmi port on the back of the tv.
Well Samsung sort of addressed that with the Q8 where there are the more traditional ports on the back panel, that is if the Q9 is not a must.

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post #245 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 11:10 AM
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Well Samsung sort of addressed that with the Q8 where there are the more traditional ports on the back panel, that is if the Q9 is not a must.
Will have to wait and see. I think the Q8 will need to compete with the high end LG LCD which uses similar quantum dot technology but at a lower price point.
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post #246 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew67 View Post
Disappointed by the "one box". Wish there were a single hdmi port on the back of the tv.
According to Samsung the Q6 & Q8 will not have the "One Connect" box, while the Q7 & Q9 will.

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post #247 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew67 View Post
Disappointed by the "one box". Wish there were a single hdmi port on the back of the tv.
I don't really care for it either.

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post #248 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 11:46 AM
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In looking at the above videos on the "one connect box" I noticed that it has 3 USB ports on the side of the unit. One is marked HDD as well. What is the usage of these ports? Can one assume: photos/Firmware updates and such? What about the one that says HDD?
Thanks, Gerry
It says 5v 1A versus 0.5A for the other two. Perhaps it's enough to power a 3.5" HDD
(still only usb 2.0 though on all three) Edit: just noticed this is in Munich, Germany so it could also be the port where you can record with onto a harddisk. (Edit 2: hxos apparently was in New York so the boxes were the same as in Munich in which it was not specifically for recording)

Viewing angles from the earlier videos. These don't have the Ultra Black Elite filter ... (with the euro Q8 only being a glorified Q7 and all. I do like the euro Q9 stand a lot better though).
That psychadelic super saturated content is something you are never going watch on your tv normally so it really doesn't say anything to normal performance. Probably looked just as good last year with content like this ...
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post #249 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 12:10 PM
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Sorry. I guess I could have asked this in another thread. But does Samsung currently or will they in the future stream VUDU in HDR? I only ask because this 2 year upgrade feature is appealing as the Q9 could be place holder until the micro-led's come out.

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post #250 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 01:30 PM
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Negative review of the 2018 Q95

I found a review of the 2018 Q9,65" from top-rated-tv.com/Samsung. It's disappointing. I hope it's proven to be highly inaccurate

Last edited by alkemac; 03-09-2018 at 01:43 PM. Reason: it's the 65" model, not the 75
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post #251 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by alkemac View Post
I found a review of the 2018 Q9,75" from top-rated-tv.com/Samsung. It's disappointing. I hope it's proven to be highly inaccurate
It's a fake clickbait review of course ... 'Edge-lit' ...
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post #252 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gillietalls View Post
Sorry. I guess I could have asked this in another thread. But does Samsung currently or will they in the future stream VUDU in HDR? I only ask because this 2 year upgrade feature is appealing as the Q9 could be place holder until the micro-led's come out.
The app devs for Vudu or any proprietary app like Netflix and Amazon etc.would be responsible to implement that for any given HDR smart TV platform and TV model line or device that supports HDR 10 or DV.

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4K Ultra HD + HDR Playback Last update: 3/6/18
Google Chromecast Ultra
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More information at:
App or Firmware update may be required. Due to variances in manufacturing not all devices within models may not compatible.
www.vudu.com/UHD

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post #253 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mithras1 View Post
It says 5v 1A versus 0.5A for the other two. Perhaps it's enough to power a 3.5" HDD
(still only usb 2.0 though on all three) Edit: just noticed this is in Munich, Germany so it could also be the port where you can record with onto a harddisk. (Edit 2: hxos apparently was in New York so the boxes were the same as in Munich in which it was not specifically for recording)

...
Right my 2016 Samsung One connect has the same but I use externally powered USB media drives . I use a Windows 10 PC to write files ,photos and media to the drives.

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post #254 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:13 PM
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I'm curious as to how the q9 will upgrade standard 480 DVD content. The sonys are noted for their excellent processing. Can the samsungs match the sonys in DVD PQ?
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post #255 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:25 PM
 
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Something people should factor into the equation is this: Dynamic metadata is technically just a crutch, if a TV can show HDR10 properly (without the need for tonemapping) and with full DCI/P3 color to begin with, then Dolby Vision and HDR10+ essentially "melt away" as adapting the content to a TV's limitations becomes unnecessary. It's actually quite reasonable to say that this should be the goal. With content mastered to 1000 nits, it's possible TVs that can fully deliver on that promise will show up soon. With 4000 nit mastering it may be a while but not too long.

And frankly, nothing I've seen from any display ever has looked as real as the 10,000-nit prototype Sony showed at CES, which was designed to "fully" render what HDR10 is technically capable of delivering.

We've got a long way to go before we get to a point where SDR arrived a few years back, when achieving full BT.709 coverage became commonplace. Until then some sort of compensation is needed. The question is if it needs to be dynamic metadata that's in the content, or if an algorithm is enough to get the job done with regular HDR10 content and TVs that need to tonemap.
Why do you need a 10,000 nit display to fully render what hdr10 is capable of delivering? hdr10 is spec'd at 10 bit , 1000 nits. we already have 10 bit lcd displays that go over 1000 nits, what we are missing is displays with full dci-p3 and rec 2020 coverage. but that is not tied to a display needing 10000 nits peak luminance.

if we're talking dolby vision, it is spec'd at 12 bit, 4000 nits currently, with a maximum of 10000 nits for the future, but so far dolby is using its reference pulsar monitor graded at 4000 nits. displays are some ways off from meeting DV specs, we don't have any 12 bit displays or 4000 nits capable displays atm. but dolby vision's dynamic metadata tailoring the EOTF to the display's capabilities makes up somewhat for that.
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post #256 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Why do you need a 10,000 nit display to fully render what hdr10 is capable of delivering? hdr10 is spec'd at 10 bit , 1000 nits. we already have 10 bit lcd displays that go over 1000 nits, what we are missing is displays with full dci-p3 and rec 2020 coverage. but that is not tied to a display needing 10000 nits peak luminance.

if we're talking dolby vision, it is spec'd at 12 bit, 4000 nits currently, with a theoretical maximum of 10000 nits for the future, but so far dolby is using its reference pulsar monitor graded at 4000 nits. displays are some ways off from meeting DV specs, we don't have any 12 bit displays or 4000 nits capable displays atm. but dolby vision's dynamic metadata tailoring the EOTF to the display's capabilities makes up somewhat for that.
No it's not. Peak luminance for HDR10 is 10,000 nits by virtue of its use of the SMPTE ST 2084 (PQ) transfer function i.e. the PQ Curve.

Currently a lot of content is mastered to 1000 nits, but in no way is HDR10 spec'd to 1000 nits. 10,000 nits is what it takes to fully encompass the HDR10 spec.

Similarly, Dolby Vision can accommodate content upt to 10,000 nits. As for the "why" of it... because that's what it REALLY takes to properly replicate an outdoor scene the way your eyes would see it through a window.
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post #257 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
No it's not. Peak luminance for HDR10 is 10,000 nits. Currently a lot of content is mastered to 1000 nits, but in no way is HDR10 spec'd to 1000 nits. 10,000 nits is what it takes to fully encompass the HDR10 spec.
all hdr10 blu rays so far are being mastered upto 1000 nits. why does it take 10000 nits to fully encompass the spec? by that logic, oleds are crap TV's for hdr, they cant even do 1000 nits yet and never see them reaching 10000.
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post #258 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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all hdr10 blu rays so far are being mastered upto 1000 nits. why does it take 10000 nits to fully encompass the spec? by that logic, oleds are crap TV's for hdr, they cant even do 1000 nits yet and never see them reaching 10000.
10,000 nits is what HDR10 can handle in theory due to the PQ curve. Therefore, that's the "full" spec as opposed to how the spec is currently implemented. Not all HDR10 is mastered to 1000 nits, it's a choice.

There's no logic at work aside from the math and the fact that the PQ curve used in HDR10 accommodates above 1000 nits.

Granted currently HDR10 mastering currently maxes out at 4000 nits, just like DV, since there's no such thing as a 10,000 nit mastering display. There are a number of 4000-nit HDR10 titles. Don't forget, Dolby Vision is using the HDR10 base layer on UHD Blu-ray.

As for that Sony 10,000 nit display... it definitely makes all OLEDs (and LCDs) I've ever seen look like... what's that word you used??? It's definitely something that needs to be seen with your own eyes before deciding if you should be dismissive of the concept of replicating real-world contrast and luminance levels.
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post #259 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:47 PM
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Looks like Samsung has relegated the 40" segment to budget guest room quality status...the features have not changed since the "downgraded" 2016 KU models, but the price keeps dropping more and more, indicating they do not care at all for the size. The new outrigger feet also make mounting a "small" 40" TV problematic in some cases. Thanks Samsung...

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Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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post #260 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like Samsung has relegated the 40" segment to budget guest room quality status...the features have not changed since the "downgraded" 2016 KU models, but the price keeps dropping more and more, indicating they do not care at all for the size. The new outrigger feet also make mounting a "small" 40" TV problematic in some cases. Thanks Samsung...

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One thing that's notable is that starting in 2018, Samsung has no 1080p TVs (or 720p) TVs in its lineup. 4K is the baseline.
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post #261 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:52 PM
 
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Because that's how the math works. That's what HDR10 can handle. Therefore, that's the spec. Not all HDR10 is mastered to 1000 nits, it's a choice.

"by that logic, oleds are crap TV's for hdr, they cant even do 1000 nits yet."

There's no logic at work aside from the math and the fact that HDR10 accommodates up to 10,000 nits. Period.

Granted currently HDR10 maxes out at 4000 nits, just like DV.

Oh and that the Sony 10,000 nit display makes all OLEDs (and LCDs) I've seen look like... what's that word you used???
I'm not from the 'bright enough for me' group that you find in the oled subsection, I know my sony x930e provides a tangible benefit in that it doesn't have to resort to compressing bright highlight detail /tone mapping on the level of oleds.

but the 10000 requirement to see hdr as it was intended to is simply impractical for many years to come. not just 10000 nits, you need a display that covers the full spectrump of th rec 2020/bt 2020 colorspace to see all the shades hdr intended you to. and with dv we should also be watching on displays that are native 12 bit.

that's all very far off and difficult to have in a consumer tv. both due to technical challenges and cost

With lcd's , the issue of going 10000 nits is that the higher you go with peak brightness, the harder blooming becomes to control. you can still see blooming in hdr content on a sony z9d (~1800 nits), for a 10000 nit display, you'd need something special to control the blooming and light spilling into the adjacent pixels. (what sony showed at ces was just a prototype)

with oleds, the issue is the technology doesn't allow for very bright displays, it is still under 1000, and when they move to top emission, they'll get better with peak brightness but not anywhere close to something like 10000.

that's the technical aspect, the cost is the other one, could they make a 10000 nit display at consumer prices any time soon? I don't think so.
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post #262 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not from the 'bright enough for me' group that you find in the oled subsection, I know my sony x930e provides a tangible benefit in that it doesn't have to resort to compressing bright highlight detail /tone mapping on the level of oleds.

but the 10000 requirement to see hdr as it was intended to is simply impractical for many years to come. not just 10000 nits, you need a display that covers the full spectrump of th rec 2020/bt 2020 colorspace to see all the shades hdr intended you to. and with dv we should also be watching on displays that are native 12 bit.

that's all very far off and difficult to have in a consumer tv. both due to technical challenges and cost

With lcd's , the issue of going 10000 nits is that the higher you go with peak brightness, the harder blooming becomes to control. you can still see blooming in hdr content on a sony z9d (~1800 nits), for a 10000 nit display, you'd need something special to control the blooming and light spilling into the adjacent pixels. (what sony showed at ces was just a prototype)

with oleds, the issue is the technology doesn't allow for very bright displays, it is still under 1000, and when they move to top emission, they'll get better with peak brightness but not anywhere close to something like 10000.

that's the technical aspect, the cost is the other one, could they make a 10000 nit display at consumer prices any time soon? I don't think so.
All that aside, the fact remains that the purpose of dynamic metadata is to compensate for a display's inability to fully match what was shown on the mastering display. Whether the content is mastered 1000 nits, 4000 nits, or (someday) 10,000 nits, it's preferable to have a display that can match that mastering display, as opposed to using dynamic metadata to tonemap. At least it's better if you subscribe to the whole theory of appreciating artists intent through exacting reproduction of A/V as it was mastered.

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post #263 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 03:05 PM
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At 11 am today, Samsung will officially unveil its 2018 TV lineup, including its latest QLEDs, in New York City. I am currently on a train headed there despite the impending storm. If all goes well, I will have coverage of this event to share (after I make it home in a rageing noreaster, that is).

Update... Althiugh I am stuck on a train due to the weather, Scott Wilkinson put together a post about the 2018 Samsungs. Click this link to read it: https://www.avsforum.com/2018-samsung...bars-unveiled/

Here's Samsung's Scott Cohen given a rundown of the 2018 QLED lineup's features:

https://youtu.be/6rOVW4vIuZs
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As for that Sony 10,000 nit display... it definitely makes all OLEDs (and LCDs) I've ever seen look like... what's that word you used??? It's definitely something that needs to be seen with your own eyes before deciding if you should be dismissive of the concept of replicating real-world contrast and luminance levels.
In the oled section they are even dismissive how the higher peak brightness of a z9d can help hdr content compared to an oled. i suggest you to take this post over there and see how they jump upon you
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post #265 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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In the oled section they are even dismissive how the higher peak brightness of a z9d can help hdr content compared to an oled. i suggest you to take this post over there and see how they jump upon you
The higher brightness of that TV is no good if it can't really pull off OLED-like blacks. Z9D was great for its time but not there's a new generation of LCDs, and not just from Samsung. Everyone knows that LCDs have struggled with deep shadows and blacks, but there is also been undeniable progress in terms of FALD implementation.

To that end, if we are going to discuss a consumer product, the Samsung Q9S with its 10,000 zones and 2000 nits and full DCI/P3 gamut is the one to discuss. Of course everybody's distracted by the fact it's 8K but the real strength of that TV is it does not have to fudge anything whatsoever when showing HDR10 content mastered to 1000 nits.

I'm in a enviable position, I think, because I'm typing this on a 65" LG G7 OLED and will have a 2018 Q9F arrive next week and a LG C8 the week after. It'll be nice to be able to compare this stuff in person, side-by-side, in my own home. Wish I was getting a Q9S too, of course, but I somehow doubt it.
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post #266 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
The higher brightness of that TV is no good if it can't really pull off OLED-like blacks. Z9D was great for its time but not there's a new generation of LCDs, and not just from Samsung. Everyone knows that LCDs have struggled with deep shadows and blacks, but there is also been undeniable progress in terms of FALD implementation.

To that end, if we are going to discuss a consumer product, the Samsung Q9S with its 10,000 zones and 2000 nits and full DCI/P3 gamut is the one to discuss. Of course everybody's distracted by the fact it's 8K but the real strength of that TV is it does not have to fudge anything whatsoever when showing HDR10 content mastered to 1000 nits.

I'm in a enviable position, I think, because I'm typing this on a 65" LG G7 OLED and will have a 2018 Q9F arrive next week and a LG C8 the week after. It'll be nice to be able to compare this stuff in person, side-by-side, in my own home. Wish I was getting a Q9S too, of course, but I somehow doubt it.
Hopefully you can take some pictures and Include those in your review. I know pictures dont always tell the full story but people like pictures

And. Might be something cool to find some local avs members in Philly to come check out this mini shootout to confirm for any doubters the validity of the setup too. Sorta like a demonstration. That would be neat.
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post #267 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 03:39 PM
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I must admit that from this videos...They did a great job on creating the illusion of deep blacks ,But how that will translate to dark environment ? We will have to wait and see.

On the AR filter is easily beating the Sony Z9D.

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post #268 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Hopefully you can take some pictures and Include those in your review. I know pictures dont always tell the full story but people like pictures

And. Might be something cool to find some local avs members in Philly to come check out this mini shootout to confirm for any doubters the validity of the setup too. Sorta like a demonstration. That would be neat.
Shots of LG and Samsung review units side by side are not gonna happen, I don't wish to disappoint but it's not practical, politically tenable, nor do I desire to referee the resulting discussions.

I don't even plan to do deeply technical reviews anymore. People are ridiculous getting hung up on this or that and then attacking. It's absurd. I'm referring folks to rtings.com and reviewed.com, sites where they can compare measurements to many other TVs anyhow, which is something I cannot provide given that I do not review a ton of TVs.

I'm gonna focus on unboxing, setup, and hands-on first impressions, mostly.

As for inviting people over... I hate to say it but unless I take a vacation and spend it doing that, there's no time to have a demo-GTG. That's before getting into things like I live in a city, what my wife would say, what my pets would think, etc. - for various reasons it's not gonna work.

Well, maybe @JWhip will stop by... he's always welcome and in fact he asked.

I mean, sounds fun but a scheduled GTG is not gonna happen. Perhaps if I move to a larger place someday that would be viable... as it stands it is not.

And that's 2018, folks.
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post #269 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I must admit that from this videos...They did a great job on creating the illusion of deep blacks ,But how that will translate to dark environment ? We will have to wait and see.

On the AR filter is easily beating the Sony Z9D.
As long as what ships is the same as what's been demoed to me so far, the Q9F is among the best FALDs yet. The Q9S will beat it, but as far as handling blacks well, the 2018 Q9F is a giant leap forward over the 2017 edgelit Q9F model and also a big leap forward from the FALD KS9800.

People are not used to seeing LCDs handle dark rooms and high contrast scenes this well and Samsung is not even talking about the carbon nano-tubes (google Vantablack to read about carbon nanotubes) that are doing the light absorbing here (I know, I asked the engineers when I was in Korea some months ago previewing this stuff), I thought it's one of the most key features which is why I brought it up in my video but Scott Cohen kinda punted on that and went with more generic comments about the AR filter.
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Last edited by imagic; 03-09-2018 at 04:16 PM.
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post #270 of 606 Old 03-09-2018, 03:52 PM
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