Samsung 65" Q9F 2018 QLED Hands-On & Review - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 07:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
Curios to know how improved is the fake HDR+ feature on this set for SDR and HDR content... on my KS9800, its phenomenal for SDR but lacks the punch for HDR viewing.
What do you mean lacks the punch for hdr viewi

I've been experimenting with it on the 2018 q9 and it seems to brighten up the image a bit. I figured it was their way of making dynamic metadata for static hdr content?

Hdr+ setting is usually for sdr stuff ...u shouldn't have to add her+ enhancer on native hdr stuff ..native hdr u should leave alone as picture is already stunning so why add artificial enhancement to hdr
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post #302 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 08:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
Curios to know how improved is the fake HDR+ feature on this set for SDR and HDR content... on my KS9800, its phenomenal for SDR but lacks the punch for HDR viewing.
What do you mean lacks the punch for hdr viewi

I've been experimenting with it on the 2018 q9 and it seems to brighten up the image a bit. I figured it was their way of making dynamic metadata for static hdr content?

Hdr+ setting is usually for sdr stuff ...u shouldn't have to add her+ enhancer on native hdr stuff ..native hdr u should leave alone as picture is already stunning so why add artificial enhancement to hdr
Because adding dynamic tone mapping like active hdr on LG oleds works wonders for hdr 10 content with static metadata.

It tone maps when the content exceeds display brightness and doesn't tone map when the content falls within the displays capability.

This is much better than just tone mapping all the time which is the conventional method as that makes an image darker than it should be in many circumstances.

Which is what I believe hdr+ does in the 2018 models but I am not sure. It's hard to see since the menu takes up almost the entire screen.
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post #303 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 08:28 AM
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This is an odd place for sure.
I like my TVs like I like my women. Large, Dumb and Silent, with deep black levels.
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post #304 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 08:33 AM
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[QUOTE=imagic;55920894]While I'm not able to get all the way to 120 hertz in 1440p using a single GTX 1080, the benchmark for GTA 5 is staying above 60 Hz and I am not seeing any screen tearing.


I have found that 1440P (2K) is too low for a 65" 4K if sitting close (6feet) which I do. I found a solution by creating a custom resolution in Nividia controls of 3072x1728.
I wonder, if you create that custom resoution will the Q9F display over 60fps?

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post #305 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 08:33 AM
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Any observations regarding banding and DSE on this set ,especially with reference to the Sony ZD9?
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post #306 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=mlmcasual;55922782]
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
While I'm not able to get all the way to 120 hertz in 1440p using a single GTX 1080, the benchmark for GTA 5 is staying above 60 Hz and I am not seeing any screen tearing.


I have found that 1440P (2K) is too low for a 65" 4K if sitting close (6feet) which I do. I found a solution by creating a custom resolution in Nividia controls of 3072x1728.
I wonder, if you create that custom resoution will the Q9F display over 60fps?
1080 and 1440 are the only two resolutions where the GTX 1080 is offering 120p, and the only two listed in the manual (which has a long, thorough list) that support it. The quality of your upscaler is going to impact how well 1440p renders on a 2160p native panel, fwiw. I'm fine with running at 60p with 2160 resolution if I'm sightseeing in a game and then going 1440p for competitive races (for example).
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post #307 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 08:51 AM
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[quote=mlmcasual;55922782]
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
While I'm not able to get all the way to 120 hertz in 1440p using a single GTX 1080, the benchmark for GTA 5 is staying above 60 Hz and I am not seeing any screen tearing.


I have found that 1440P (2K) is too low for a 65" 4K if sitting close (6feet) which I do. I found a solution by creating a custom resolution in Nividia controls of 3072x1728.
I wonder, if you create that custom resoution will the Q9F display over 60fps?
That is a good question.

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post #308 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 09:01 AM
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Any thoughts on gaming HDR imagic? Read one of our users say that Assassins Creed Origina HDR looked ‘dim’ on the set?

Quick thoughts, if any, between the C8 for HDR gaming?
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post #309 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 11:24 AM
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[quote=imagic;55922826]
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Originally Posted by mlmcasual View Post

1080 and 1440 are the only two resolutions where the GTX 1080 is offering 120p, and the only two listed in the manual (which has a long, thorough list) that support it. The quality of your upscaler is going to impact how well 1440p renders on a 2160p native panel, fwiw. I'm fine with running at 60p with 2160 resolution if I'm sightseeing in a game and then going 1440p for competitive races (for example).
You getting Farcry 5 tonight? Would be a great game to test it out on.

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post #310 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 05:05 PM
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[quote=mlmcasual;55923772]
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

You getting Farcry 5 tonight? Would be a great game to test it out on.
I AM BUT NO Q9 Seriously though game is well optimized on pc.. over 100 fps with gtx 1080ti @ 1440p. Vega 64 does 92Fps @ 1440p. This would be a great test for Freesync. 4k Vega 64 does 52fps max settings so lower shadows and should be locked 60fps @ 4k..
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post #311 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 06:51 PM
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Is Dnice still checking out the Q9 or did he ditch it for the oled? Lol since he has a Z9D also, would like to hear comparisons of a star field torture test between the Q9, Z, and oled and see which led gets closest to the oled. It's the ultimate torture test that no led can fully match but just see who's closer.
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post #312 of 875 Old 03-26-2018, 07:09 PM
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Is Dnice still checking out the Q9 or did he ditch it for the oled? Lol since he has a Z9D also, would like to hear comparisons of a star field torture test between the Q9, Z, and oled and see which led gets closest to the oled. It's the ultimate torture test that no led can fully match but just see who's closer.
I asked the same thing and I was told to be patient as he got other TVs as well
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post #313 of 875 Old 03-27-2018, 07:57 AM
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@imagic do you have an Xbox One X or S? The X/S are getting FreeSync in the next update, which is already out in alpha, I'm wondering if you can test VRR on this set. I'm assuming it's FreeSync2 with LFC (low framerate compensation) for the consoles, which is 2xframerate, so 30 fps becomes 60Hz.

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post #314 of 875 Old 03-27-2018, 08:03 AM
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didnt Samsung say that VRR in the 2018 QLEDs is only promised in a future fw update ? and right now it isnt implemented
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post #315 of 875 Old 03-27-2018, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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@imagic do you have an Xbox One X or S? The X/S are getting FreeSync in the next update, which is already out in alpha, I'm wondering if you can test VRR on this set. I'm assuming it's FreeSync2 with LFC (low framerate compensation) for the consoles, which is 2xframerate, so 30 fps becomes 60Hz.
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didnt Samsung say that VRR in the 2018 QLEDs is only promised in a future fw update ? and right now it isnt implemented
When that Xbox/Q9 VRR featur is up and running, I'll definitely test. I've asked for more information, but right now I don't have it.

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post #316 of 875 Old 03-27-2018, 08:44 AM
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didnt Samsung say that VRR in the 2018 QLEDs is only promised in a future fw update ? and right now it isnt implemented
As we have all learned from these promises from the past sometimes these promises never happen.
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post #317 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 01:44 AM
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IMO it's minimum on the Z9D however. And it probably doesn't even deserve to be called light bleed since it's not like (a portion of) the bars actually light up in a major way. Whenever there is a very bright part on screen near the bars, in that particular area they sometimes may look just a tiny bit elevated instead of true black. But it doesn't happen all the time plus you'd really have to look for it too and keep focusing on that particular area. In other words, you would have to be overly critical. IMO it really is negligibe. Especially on the 75Z9D which seems to be doing an even better job at LD than the 65" (I own both).
I have a Z9D, and light spillage into the black bars is not an issue with SDR, but it could use improvement with HDR. I expect Samsung to be better in this area, along with much better screen filter and better colors. Also better remote and slicker user experience. The only question is, can the motion keep up with the smoothness of Sony, or are their hiccups and stutters? Also, has Samsung fixed the posterization/false contouring/color banding issues, and is it on par with Sony now?

Hope the blooming in HDR is less than the Z9D as well, which could use improvement. Blooming is not an issue in SDR on the Z9D.
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post #318 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 01:54 AM
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Z9D def lights up black bars. I found it to be slightly better than the 940e, but nowhere near as good as I expected from something with so many zones. And still not as good as the Vizio P.
It's true that with HDR on my Z9D the black bars are not always uniformly black if there is some bright content near the letterbox bars. Actually, if the content is really bright, I can even see some slight spillage or haloing on my OLEDs, due to the limitations of the human visual system. But the LCD's add some haloing or spillage of their own on top of this.

However, if one is paying attention to the content in-between the black bars, and not fixating on the bars themselves, the bars are in the peripheral vision, and not overly distracting, even though Sony could certainly make some improvements here. So it really depends on whether one is testing the uniformity of black bars by staring at them or fixating on them, or if one is enjoying the content of a movie and not paying close attention to the bars. Also, subtitles within black bars in HDR can be searingly bright and subject to some blooming. OLED is best in this regard. But my OLED's blow out highlights in certain HDR scenes and do not have nearly the pop on bright sunny content, and also sometimes color volume suffers from the big fat panda white subpixel.

Still looking for that display that can approximate OLED-like blacks in HDR with minimal blooming, at the same time offering Z9D pop on bright HDR scenes.

Hopefully Samsung has a winner and gets closer to the mark than any other LCD.
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post #319 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
A little dse isn't bad. On my Z9D on similar rotations or pans I can see huge vertical columns that are maybe an inch wide throughout that cover the entire screen like it's the fald grid structure. Interestingly, it's only on like off whites or yellow colors, no horizontal columns but just the vertical ones. It's really really bad and I saw it on 3 different z9s. The q9 isn't like that is it?
My Z9D has some minor DSE as well. All the Sony LCD's I have had have varying amounts of DSE. My father's Samsung LCD from a few years back has DSE too.

My Z9D doesn't have these vertical stripe banding issues like you are describing, but mine was one of the earlier (late) 2016 builds off the line, and perhaps with the earlier ones they were more careful to make sure they did not get poor reviews from the get go. Sounds like the three Z9D's you experienced were substandard, as most people do not seem to have such issues.
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post #320 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 02:40 AM
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So it seems we are looking at double the contrast ratio of the ZD9. This is the most surprising aspect of this set and i think the one that deserves the most investigation.
Don't pay attention to numbers. They don't mean squat. The Z9D has better blacks than the last generation plasmas, yet according to the numbers, just cited, it supposedly has only half the CR measurement, or even much less. What a meter measures (and how it is measured) sometimes has no relation to what contrast your eyes perceive. Do you stare at black and white checkerboards or do you actually watch content on your display? It's all about how many zones, plus the algorithms, and how good of a job they do.

The Samsung may be darker than the Z9D, but could also be dimmer (as some people have reported). Vizios were noted for doing this. Being real dark, dimming down the pic somewhat to control the blooming and keep the blacks darker.

Numbers don't mean squat. You have to set the Q9 side by side with the Z9D, and let your eyes decide which has better blacks, on real content, not a checkerboard. Checkerboard ANSI measurements were more useful for comparing plasmas, but are not as effective or useful for judging LED-LCD's with complex/sophisticated local dimming algorithms.

There is no substitute for a side by side comparison made with the eyes. Meters do not work the same way the human visual system works.

Why do you think that you can toss out 7/8ths of the data from a CD waveform and still have near lossless audio quality with an audio coding format? Likewise for compressing a photo with jpeg.

Local dimming algorithms exploit the known limitations of the human visual system, and are designed to assess the threshold for how much blooming or light bleed is acceptable without producing visibly annoying artifacts.

Just as with mp3 the codec throws out soft sounds that are near in frequency to much louder sounds, because the softer sound is masked and cannot be distinguished, so it is with local dimming algorithms for displays. If there is something somewhat large and bright on the screen right next to something black, the human visual system cannot perceive that much contrast.

However on a very dim low-APL scene, the human visual system is much more sensitive to a wider range of contrast.

I used to have a 500M Kuro (the blackest of them all) and in the below deck scenes a couple of minutes into the beginning of the film Master and Commander, the black bars on the Kuro would go totally gray and meld/disappear into the screen. There was a uniform gray haze or fog over the screen.

I used to have Samsung's flagship B8500 in 2009, which came with 240 zones on the 55 incher (less on the 46), and on certain (admittedly a small minority) scenes that were better suited to the strengths of local dimming, the B8500 looked several shades darker than the Kuro.

A Kuro 500M did not look black on a 0% signal. It glowed a dark gray. So as long as there was nothing bright on the screen, the Kuro did not look all that black. However most scenes have sufficient mixed content of brights and blacks so that the Kuro looked very black.

Even middle of the road LCD's can look just as black as top LCD's on certain scenes that have a sufficient amount of dark and bright content mixed on screen, and with SDR, the Z9D more often than not looks just as black as OLED on most scenes, made up of this mixed dark/bright content.

The bottom line is, even if the Z9D is said to measure 8:000 to 1 and a Kuro is said to measure twice this or even more, that does not mean the Kuro has twice as good blacks as the Z9D.

I can assure you, the Z9D (on-axis of course) presents overall a 'better' rendition of blacks than stock 9G Kuros (I never voltage lowered mine), no matter what the measurements say. Of course I am talking SDR to SDR comparison, since plasmas could not do HDR. The Z9D always looks nearly OLED-ish black in SDR, and that could not be said for Kuros.

On low-APL scenes, like those very dim scenes in Harry Potter films and such, the Kuros glow gray, and the Z9D does not. Go into the Sony 940 and Z9D threads and you will see that most everyone who has owned a (stock) Kuro and then gets a 940E or a Z9D, they all say they like the blacks on the LED-LCD better. That includes me.

So I really don't care what some checkerboard measures on an LED-LCD compared to a plasma or even an other LCD. It's an obsolete methodology that was good for comparing plasmas to other plasmas, but does not work as well when it comes to measuring FALD's.
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post #321 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I would say it's possibly due to better absorption of leaking light, which allows the black squares to be darker. But also could be partly due to a higher native contrast to the panel although it's no way to find out due to the undefeatable FALD.
Or it could simply be that the way the panel is designed, the dimming zones happen to line up better to the given checkerboard used on one display versus the other, and also perhaps there is variation in the way the measurements were done, and the meter was not aimed in the exact same spot, and most importantly, a meter measures totally different than the way the human visual system perceives contrast.

Who really cares if one measured double the contrast of the other? I bet the black squares do NOT look twice as dark on one display versus the other. I bet they are indistinguishable.

I challenge anyone to set up a Z9D next to the Q9 and measure both at the same time with the same meter under the same conditions, and then tell us with a straight face that the Q9 black squares looked twice as dark as the Z9D. Hah! I don't think so.

FACT: Checkerboard measurements don't mean squat for FALDs. You have to watch a wide variety of actual content side by side to tell which is doing blacks better, without overly dimming the image, or causing excessive blooming, or suffering from brightness fluctuations, etc. You can go more aggressive with the dimming, giving darker blacks, but at the cost of more blooming.

There is simply no substitute for taking the time to perform extensive side by side comparisons running identical content.

Lazy review sites like Rtings think that everything can be reduced to mechanical measurements and numbers. That is why their reviews are limited in their value.
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post #322 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
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I concur.

Anyone who is experiencing light bleed into the letterbox bars with the Z9D (like in that BvS Youtube video a couple of posts back) should contact Sony about it. It is absolutely not normal.
I completely disagree. With SDR the black bars on the Z9D are great, if not quite as good as OLED, still dark enough (very dark) that they are never a distraction, because one does not stare at the black bars while watching a movie! One affixes their gaze on the content BETWEEN the letterbox bars, and therefore the black bars are simply in the peripheral vision, and if they are not 100% dark, but only 90% dark as OLED it is nevertheless not an issue.

But with HDR? Let's be honest, now. I do like the Z9D and it was the best display of 2016 (much better than my 2016 LG OLED), but if one is to say that there is never any light bleed into letterbox bars, that person should contact an opthamologist and have their eyesight checked. I have set my Z9D side by side next to 2016/2017 LG OLEDs and also next to my A1E Sony OLED. With HDR, when the backlight is cranked up on the Z9D, it does not always have black bars as good as OLED, period! OLEDs do have their advantages! (and disadvantages).

Sure much of the time, the black bars look good on the Z9D even in HDR, but NOT all of the time. Certain scenes with bright content next to the letterbox bars does bring out a non-uniform look across the letterbox bar. It is not black all the way across like OLED, but some parts of the black bar are lighter.

Of course, if the content is searingly bright and very near the edge of the letterbox bar, I can even observe some spillage on my OLEDs, not from panel blooming, but from the limitations of the human visual system. With searingly bright white content on a black background, even some slight or very mild blooming can be seen on OLED. Local dimming algorithms try to exploit this limitation of the human visual system by managing blooming to near imperceptible levels. The blooming may register on a meter, but that doesn't mean you will be able to perceive it.

The only thing that ultimately matters are the blacks that you PERCEIVE, not how the blacks MEASURE.

Does an MP3/AAC audio file with at 128 kb/s measure the same as the 1411 kb/s original wave form from the CD? Of course not. More than 90 percent of the data has been TOSSED OUT (although admittedly some audio signals can be compressed losslessly to around 50%).

Does that mean an mp3 or aac files sounds 90% worse or only 10% as good as the CD original? Of course not.

Numbers don't mean diddly squat. All that matters is the quality of the blacks are perceived by our eyes.

I do not care if the Q9 or any display for that matter measures "twice" the CR of the Z9D. I GUARANTEE YOU that it will not look anywhere near "twice" as good or "twice" as black, because with SDR the Z9D is already OLED-ish in black level, and there is very little room for improvement. I watch space scenes in films like Gravity or Star Wars side by side on my Z9D and my OLEDs and the blacks look essentially the same level of darkness/blackness. The difference is not that the OLED looks significantly darker, but that the local dimming algorithm mutes or compresses the dynamic ranges of the stars, so on the OLED there is a much greater variation in brightness of stars, and on the Z9D, to keep the blacks looking very deep with little to no blooming, they Sony engineers decided to limit the peak brightness of some of the brighter stars and so a starfield looks bit dull, with no real sparkly stars.

Now with HDR, the Z9D does not always look black, but certain challenging scenes can show a bit of gray from time to time. Hopefully the Samsung has improved upon this with more consistently deeper looking blacks with less visible blooming.

With only 480 zones, I doubt that the difference will be strikingly different in HDR. The best one can hope for is a modest but nevertheless, noticeable improvement.

Someone who set a Q9 next to a Z9D already reported that with white credits on a black background, that the Q9 was dimming the whites more than the Z9D. So without a significantly larger number of zones, (in fact 480 is even less than the ~648 of the Z9D), lower panel reflections can only do so much.

The only other major factor is a real good panel with a significantly higher native contrast. That could make a big difference. Let's hope that is the case. Proof is in the pudding. All one has to do is throw up a bunch of challenging HDR scenes on the Q9, (ones that don't look so good on the Z9D), and see how they fare on the Samsung.
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post #323 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 07:14 AM
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Wow. So anyway... back to the Q9FN review?
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post #324 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 07:34 AM
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Wow. So anyway... back to the Q9FN review?
I woke up this morning and saw some new posts hoping to read more about the Q9 and all we got are people writing books defending their Sony Zs.
Maybe we should retitle every thread to something like "x owners thread or y TV review, but my z9d will always be better no matter what anyone says or what any numbers show"
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post #325 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I woke up this morning and saw some new posts hoping to read more about the Q9 and all we got are people writing books defending their Sony Zs.
No worries, I'm shipping the C8 to Scott today and will get back to this TV promptly. The behind-the-scenes take here is that I have a whole AV system coming together around this TV including a NAD T777 in for review and a Monoprice Monolith 15" sub also in for review. I'm performing Dirac Live calibrations today and have a friend coming over so I can film an unboxing of the subwoofer.

The panel is ready for proper calibration, it'll be connected to a very competent 7.2.4 sound system, and is connected to numerous excellent 4K HDR sources. It's all good to go, aside from some logistics that need to be dealt with beforehand.

Anyhow, get ready for more...
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post #326 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 08:03 AM
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No worries, I'm shipping the C8 to Scott today and will get back to this TV promptly. The behind-the-scenes take here is that I have a whole AV system coming together around this TV including a NAD T777 in for review and a Monoprice Monolith 15" sub also in for review. I'm performing Dirac Live calibrations today and have a friend coming over so I can film an unboxing of the subwoofer.

The panel is ready for proper calibration, it'll be connected to a very competent 7.2.4 sound system, and is connected to numerous excellent 4K HDR sources. It's all good to go, aside from some logistics that need to be dealt with beforehand.

Anyhow, get ready for more...
Mark, posted this question in the owners thread but wasn't sure if you are still following there.

Is it confirmed if the Q8/Q9 supports Freesync with the Xbox One X (since the Samsung has VVR or is that not confirmed either)?
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post #327 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 08:08 AM
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Yes, we get it, Z9D is the best tv ever made!!!!! Samsung 480 zones vs ~648 of Z9D --> Z9D wins! Yay!!!!

Grow up or get some meds, whatever works for you!


Now looking forward to hearing feedback ONLY from Samsung Q9FN OWNERS!!
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post #328 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 08:08 AM
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Mark, posted this question in the owners thread but wasn't sure if you are still following there.

Is it confirmed if the Q8/Q9 supports Freesync with the Xbox One X (since the Samsung has VVR or is that not confirmed either)?
VRR is confirmed and Hell Blade will use this feature(game releases april 11) My samsung people have confirmed freesync Mark has to get word from his engineers.. Somebody who has a AMD graphic cards needs to test the feature to see if it works.. I have Vega 64 but no Q9. So if anybody wants to send me one for "testing purposes" feel free

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post #329 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark, posted this question in the owners thread but wasn't sure if you are still following there.

Is it confirmed if the Q8/Q9 supports Freesync with the Xbox One X (since the Samsung has VVR or is that not confirmed either)?
I do not have a proper, official description of what's going on with that function, in the sense of having received a formal reply to my query, no.

I will follow up, especially since I'm equipped to implement whatever Xbox One X plus 2018 QLED features are available.

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post #330 of 875 Old 03-29-2018, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by killbill07 View Post
Yes, we get it, Z9D is the best tv ever made!!!!! Samsung 480 zones vs ~648 of Z9D --> Z9D wins! Yay!!!!

Grow up or get some meds, whatever works for you!


Now looking forward to hearing feedback from ONLY from Samsung Q9FN OWNERS!!
lol this will never change Sony owners don't like to conceded to Samsung. Honestly though the TV is 2 years old why is it so hard to understand that tech improves. Yes ZD9 has more zones but the new coating and algorithm on Samsung by all accounts beats it..
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LG Oled 65C8 |Samsung 65 Q9FNSamsung 55 Q8FN | Sony 65 900F |Samsung 65 NU8000
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