2018 Samsung Q9FN ''Owners thread'' ''No price talk'' - Page 370 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11071 of 11208 Old 04-21-2020, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Magnifican View Post
You still havent gotten the latest version over in the US? Its been here in EU for awhile but I still havent updated yet cause I found so little feedback on the forums.

If you do have it and updated, what is your opinion about PQ/color? You decided not to do a new calibration?
I'm in the US, no luck getting it so far.

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post #11072 of 11208 Old 04-21-2020, 05:11 PM
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I've installed Korean firmware updates though. I didn't think the region restricted it
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post #11073 of 11208 Old 04-21-2020, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by esosa17237 View Post
I've installed Korean firmware updates though. I didn't think the region restricted it
The Korean firmwares are exactly the same as the US. They're the only other ones that will work with US models. And they are still at 1292. It's labeled as 1291 in the web site, go figure, but if you download it's actually 1292.

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post #11074 of 11208 Old 04-21-2020, 05:47 PM
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I see. Did not know this before. That explains why it's not being read
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post #11075 of 11208 Old 04-22-2020, 05:32 AM
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So given not many people have the latest update I'll just pitch in and let everyone know I'm still having a great time, there's been no downgrade to image quality in terms of local dimming, colour or clarity from my end. I switch up between Motion Settings because artifacts piss me off but this is the first time I've used it again (in Game Mode) since about 2-3 updates ago and it appears much improved, however I used to use Auto Motion Plus that is found not in Game Mode but outside of it in the normal source presets, my understanding it that these work differently and Game Mode is less aggressive at the same settings, which may be why less artifacts are present. (I'll take it!)

TV is being used with Nintendo Switch and PC, but like 90% PC use..
I use the TV on the Game Console source mode and Game Mode turned on for minimal input lag, local dimming is pretty excellent still considering the low input lag and ability to calibrate with good options in Game Mode. I have Windows set to YcbCr 4:4:4 Limited 8Bit 3840x2160 via Nvidia Control Panel, and I have Game Motion Plus turned on with Judder at 3 and Blur at 10, minimal artifacts barely pop up ever with my use of Windows UI, Games and Movies/TV/YouTube, and both ycbcr 4:4:4 and Game Motion Plus really help cut down on ghosting/smeary motion. Weirdly using the PC on RGB behaves differently to ycbcr 4:4:4 atleast in ghosting. Samsung's HDMI UHD Color says supports "50p/60p 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 signals" so RGB probably gets converted or something perhaps. I feel like 4:4:4 also is clearer and affects input lag a miniscule amount in a positive manner but this could be completely placebo.

Calibrated using HCFR and a i1 Display Pro, I always start from scratch each time I do a re-calibration so can't compare, however the results stack up nicely, I fall under a Delta E 2000 of 2 for nearly everything except magenta which seems to be (and always has been in my case) the most troublesome at just above 2.0.

Doing a color checker pattern test shows essentially every check falling under Delta E 2000 of 2.0 except for light skin tones which got around a 3 or 4 for memory, only outlier, those skin tones suffer the most due to that magenta which is hard to dial in I believe.

Grayscale and Gamma tracks excellently for SRGB mode 2.2
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post #11076 of 11208 Old 04-22-2020, 08:36 AM
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I've found Magenta and Blue the hardest to dial in.

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post #11077 of 11208 Old 04-22-2020, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Losifanatic View Post
I have had the q9fn now for 3 weeks. The more I watch this TV the more I notice the short comings of my ks8000. The q9fn is a much nicer looking TV.
No question about that, Q9FN is a far better set.
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post #11078 of 11208 Old 04-22-2020, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CluckerByte View Post
Weirdly using the PC on RGB behaves differently to ycbcr 4:4:4 atleast in ghosting. Samsung's HDMI UHD Color says supports "50p/60p 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 signals" so RGB probably gets converted or something perhaps. I feel like 4:4:4 also is clearer and affects input lag a miniscule amount in a positive manner but this could be completely placebo.
This sounds abit strange to me. I use RGB and have no issues, it is essentially the same as 4:4:4, both are 8bit, 4k 60hz. But back when I just got the TV and was trying to decide between RGB or ycbcr 4:4:4, I looked around the web for info on which is best and I often read that RGB have lower input lag and better in some ways, yet I never understood why exactly and as I said the picture and text looks exactly the same, some claim something about convertion or whatever slowing it down in 4:4:4, so like the opposite of what you said. Again this is from various sources and im not sure what is correct.
Anyways, you mentioning ghosting here is the first time i've ever read that RGB have these issues. How did you notice this and did you verify it by some test? I cannot seem to spot this difference between the two. (I only start seeing degrading text clarity when I drop to 4:2:2 on PC)
I also use Console Mode input as I like the more options available, and the PC Mode input has much worse PQ overall, a few ms lag increased is worth it, and i've also read that according to Rtings the PC mode does not display 4:4:4 colors correctly in some resolutions.

Last edited by Magnifican; 04-22-2020 at 12:16 PM.
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post #11079 of 11208 Old 04-22-2020, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Magnifican View Post
This sounds abit strange to me. I use RGB and have no issues, it is essentially the same as 4:4:4, both are 8bit, 4k 60hz. But back when I just got the TV and was trying to decide between RGB or ycbcr 4:4:4, I looked around the web for info on which is best and I often read that RGB have lower input lag and better in some ways, yet I never understood why exactly and as I said the picture and text looks exactly the same, some claim something about convertion or whatever slowing it down in 4:4:4, so like the opposite of what you said. Again this is from various sources and im not sure what is correct.
Anyways, you mentioning ghosting here is the first time i've ever read that RGB have these issues. How did you notice this and did you verify it by some test? I cannot seem to spot this difference between the two. (I only start seeing degrading text clarity when I drop to 4:2:2 on PC)
I also use Console Mode input as I like the more options available, and the PC Mode input has much worse PQ overall, a few ms lag increased is worth it, and i've also read that according to Rtings the PC mode does not display 4:4:4 colors correctly in some resolutions.
I have used RGB and YcbCr without issue too, I never said RGB gives me issues, I was just stating that with 4:4:4 if anything I at least appear to gain better image motion, I use UFO Ghosting test on Google to judge, this one here - https://www.testufo.com/ghosting

Maybe try compare both options on the site and see what results you get.
I also know that before I got a calibration device, I used to use a Gamma adjustment page for reference, and switching RGB to Limited instead of Full gave me a closer grey blend for each box. Technically it shouldn't make a difference, but if the TV has a native way it was built to operate (Likely limited, ycbcr in most cases) and you have it render in RGB Full, the conversion being performed may introduce oddities such as perhaps the ghosting difference I am noticing and a difference in gamma ramp.

Just a guess, I don't have an actual answer, all that I know is I have been playing with this TV for over a year now and my results always come in the same, I end up settling on YcbCr Limited and for now I've settled for Game Motion on 10 for Blur and 3 for Judder given the minimal artifacting and improved clarity / smoothness of both 60fps and 24fps content without disrupting the feel of 24fps content, at least to my eyes.

See how you go, I'm interested in hearing your results, I'm quite sensitive to video and audio changes, and I tend to test others to make sure I'm not under placebo, I hate placebo and it's important to me I'm not tricking myself, being unbias is a huge priority to me in all aspects of life.

PC Mode has many issues, it locks the colour gamut to DCI-P3 and so everything is forced to be oversaturated, there is bad smearing/ghosting on the UFO Test I mentioned, and HDR is completely ****ed as well local dimming for a small input lag decrease, I spent a lot of time arguing this with samsung and the guys who sold me the tv, not worth using IMO, Game Mode / Game Console combined is pretty ideal. You get colour calibrated / accurate SRGB in default mode for PC and in HDR the full DCI-P3 / REC.2020 and with high peak brightness and great local dimming with low input lag. Best combination I've found for the TV.

EDIT: To add to this, I also for now have been testing (although it's apparently unsupported) G-Sync Compatibility on the TV, let me explain. Usually when you enable V-Sync in Nvidia Control Panel the screen will go blank and come back as it switches to V-Sync enabled Windows-wide, however when I enable G-Sync after enabling Freesync Ultimate on my TV, the screen goes blank and comes back as per expected and it is then enabled, then when I enable V-Sync in the 3D Settings it doesn't go blank and just applies right away, this is expected behaviour as per how G-Sync works as V-Sync toggle works differently with G-Sync enabled.

G-Sync Compatibility works with any monitor that is freesync enabled / compatible, it's just that your results may not be ideal. So I currently have G-Sync working and haven't experienced any tearing in games yet, I am keeping an eye on it but this is how things are set up for me currently, and may be influencing the ghosting / image motion on top of what I mentioned above (I have definitely noticed differences between RGB and YcbCr previous to trying G-Sync which has been only for a week so far)

I also while using YcbCr have gone into Nvidia's Control Panel and manually set the video options to use Nvidia's settings which set everything to untouched and pure, and set the video range to limited.

This stuff may be fine on default but I have forced it system wide just to be sure, thought I'd include everything i've customised to paint a full picture!
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Last edited by CluckerByte; 04-22-2020 at 06:32 PM.
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post #11080 of 11208 Old 04-22-2020, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post
I've found Magenta and Blue the hardest to dial in.
I would agree with this, blue is probably the second hardest for me too.
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post #11081 of 11208 Old 04-23-2020, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CluckerByte View Post
[...]
Thanks for this detailed post!
I tried looking again and again for any differences but I just cant spot anything, I have the same amount of ghosting on UFO test (I always use this site as well).
About the RGB to Limited or Full does not make much difference on ghosting either for me, I does change the contrast and picture looks greyish, but the full or limited 0-255 or 16-235 stuff there is no problems cause this can be rectified on the TV "External Device Manager" and "HDMI Black Level", which is available in when windows is set to RGB but disabled/greyed out if I switch to YcbCr, but its the correct picture anyway so it doesnt matter. So yeah, its really hard to either confirm or deny what you're saying here, but it is interesting and I certainly would be interested in getting the least amount of ghosting.
I never use motion plus so I cant comment on that, when I do use it the ghosting gets much better ofc but at the cost of artifacts etc and I dislike the soap opera effect, in a few games with low fps its good to have this option but in general I leave it off.

Anyway. what costs the least amount of processing and thus the fastest/best mode is the question here, whether there is more/less ghosting. One comment I found on hardforum says:

"I think the overhead claim comes from the RGB->Ycbcr conversion process. Video games (and windows desktop in general) is in RGB, it is the PC format afterall. If you set your GPU to send Ycbcr it has to convert it. Movies are already in Ycbcr so no conversions are needed. The conversion is near lossless process, the measured differences are not visible by eye. Some colors lose few points of DeltaE, and some actually become better."

Another say: "I've played with RGB vs ycbcr a lot and my 1080p projector gives slightly better dark definition with RGB so thats what I use for gaming and films.
But tbh the difference is so small its a nitpick."

Another say: YCbCr is always 16-235 or 16-240. The reason is all digital display panels are RGB, so the luminance and chroma values have to be converted. In reality, luminance is a percentage value from 0 to 1, while chroma is a deviation value from -0.5 to +0.5. The chroma components in RGB are integers including 0 to 255 (or higher, depending on bpp). The equation responsible for conversion into the RGB color space requires scaling and rounding, otherwise the brightest and darkest values can be clipped or crushed when the final image is displayed.
Bottom line is, for PC usage, always use RGB Full."

Another say: "Always send RGB to your TV if you can. This avoids unnecessay conversions or possibly wrong conversions between color spaces. 0-255 too if your TV doesn't introduce errors like banding or similar with it. Also check if your TV has a 4:4:4 mode setting and use that."

(I could post links to these convos but not sure if allowed, its on the hardforum,com) As you can see, Most comments seem to be about colors 0-255 or 16-235 stuff, but as I said for me both of these are identical if set to correct black level on the TV. So despite all these recommendations I cannot find a clear answer to ghosting, lag, response time etc. I just suspect there isnt any difference since nothing is mentioned anywhere I searched for an hour now.


PS, Another slightly unrelated thing I noticed and wondered about for some time is when reading around the web I see that people always say you need to use 4:2:2 and 10bit set to be enabled HDR 4k 60hz in games (because HDMI 2.0 cannot do 4:4:4 10bit 4k due to bandwith), but regardless if I use this option or use 4:4:4 8 bit or RGB 8bit at 4k 60hz, the HDR in games looks exactly the same. I saw someone speak about 8bit+dithering coming into effect but no idea how that works and why then would people say you need to go to 4:4:2 for "True HDR" - which looks much worse for desktop text etc - when gaming HDR looks identical in 4:4:4/RGB 8bit set in NCP. So when I enable HDR in windows and then inside games, there is no point in lowering Ycbcr to 4:2:2.

Last edited by Magnifican; 04-23-2020 at 11:33 AM.
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post #11082 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Magnifican View Post
Thanks for this detailed post!
I tried looking again and again for any differences but I just cant spot anything, I have the same amount of ghosting on UFO test (I always use this site as well).
About the RGB to Limited or Full does not make much difference on ghosting either for me, I does change the contrast and picture looks greyish, but the full or limited 0-255 or 16-235 stuff there is no problems cause this can be rectified on the TV "External Device Manager" and "HDMI Black Level", which is available in when windows is set to RGB but disabled/greyed out if I switch to YcbCr, but its the correct picture anyway so it doesnt matter. So yeah, its really hard to either confirm or deny what you're saying here, but it is interesting and I certainly would be interested in getting the least amount of ghosting.
I never use motion plus so I cant comment on that, when I do use it the ghosting gets much better ofc but at the cost of artifacts etc and I dislike the soap opera effect, in a few games with low fps its good to have this option but in general I leave it off.

Anyway. what costs the least amount of processing and thus the fastest/best mode is the question here, whether there is more/less ghosting. One comment I found on hardforum says:

"I think the overhead claim comes from the RGB->Ycbcr conversion process. Video games (and windows desktop in general) is in RGB, it is the PC format afterall. If you set your GPU to send Ycbcr it has to convert it. Movies are already in Ycbcr so no conversions are needed. The conversion is near lossless process, the measured differences are not visible by eye. Some colors lose few points of DeltaE, and some actually become better."

Another say: "I've played with RGB vs ycbcr a lot and my 1080p projector gives slightly better dark definition with RGB so thats what I use for gaming and films.
But tbh the difference is so small its a nitpick."

Another say: YCbCr is always 16-235 or 16-240. The reason is all digital display panels are RGB, so the luminance and chroma values have to be converted. In reality, luminance is a percentage value from 0 to 1, while chroma is a deviation value from -0.5 to +0.5. The chroma components in RGB are integers including 0 to 255 (or higher, depending on bpp). The equation responsible for conversion into the RGB color space requires scaling and rounding, otherwise the brightest and darkest values can be clipped or crushed when the final image is displayed.
Bottom line is, for PC usage, always use RGB Full."

Another say: "Always send RGB to your TV if you can. This avoids unnecessay conversions or possibly wrong conversions between color spaces. 0-255 too if your TV doesn't introduce errors like banding or similar with it. Also check if your TV has a 4:4:4 mode setting and use that."

(I could post links to these convos but not sure if allowed, its on the hardforum,com) As you can see, Most comments seem to be about colors 0-255 or 16-235 stuff, but as I said for me both of these are identical if set to correct black level on the TV. So despite all these recommendations I cannot find a clear answer to ghosting, lag, response time etc. I just suspect there isnt any difference since nothing is mentioned anywhere I searched for an hour now.


PS, Another slightly unrelated thing I noticed and wondered about for some time is when reading around the web I see that people always say you need to use 4:2:2 and 10bit set to be enabled HDR 4k 60hz in games (because HDMI 2.0 cannot do 4:4:4 10bit 4k due to bandwith), but regardless if I use this option or use 4:4:4 8 bit or RGB 8bit at 4k 60hz, the HDR in games looks exactly the same. I saw someone speak about 8bit+dithering coming into effect but no idea how that works and why then would people say you need to go to 4:4:2 for "True HDR" - which looks much worse for desktop text etc - when gaming HDR looks identical in 4:4:4/RGB 8bit set in NCP. So when I enable HDR in windows and then inside games, there is no point in lowering Ycbcr to 4:2:2.
So I switched between RGB Full and 4:4:4 Limited again and don't see a ghosting difference much the same as you, I may have played with too many settings at once and confused myself I think, pretty sure it's the Motion Judder and Blur settings that have given me the improvement I believe. Will have to play around more, I should devote more concentrated time to it rather than coming back to it every once in a while to test.

Re: HDR and 4:2:2 stuff, yes you're right you can do HDR in 8bit and Windows uses 8bit+FRC to give you 10bit colours. It's an eye trick that is effective and allows for improved colour range without demanding more bandwidth. Some elitists demand they have a 10 bit panel with native 10 bit output but it's more of a comfort thing to my knowledge really than a tangible difference.

This thread with the chosen solution helps to explain a bit - https://forums.tomshardware.com/thre...t-frc.2937222/

I believe the Q9FN natively expects 4K YcbCr 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 content given that's what bluray devices and the game consoles output with, so running Windows in this mode means the TV doesn't need to convert anything, but then is Windows converting anything or is it a clean output without any issues? I feel like there's not much evidence to say whether RGB from PC to TV conversion is better or worse than YcbCr from PC to TV. I just go off my eyes and calibration results. I know I got my best calibration delta on 4:4:4, but that's not saying much and could've just been my luck and attention to detail that particular calibration run.

Will do more testing, appreciate your time and input around these things, i don't find many people who have the same set up and like to discuss / understand these things.
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post #11083 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 12:20 AM
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Ok, so I tested using this site - http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gradient.php

RGB gives me a smidgen more banding I can see in the greys and whites than using YcbCr 4:4:4

Now, I calibrated using 4:4:4 for greyscale and colour, so I don't know if this would really affect it, as I know once before when I switched to RGB and checked my calibration I was still basically inline with the results from when I was on 4:4:4 for the most part.

If 4:4:4 is showing less banding, I would think this would mean that the TV probably expects a 4:4:4 signal and sending YcbCr from Windows to the TV in a mode such as Game Console where it expects 4K 4:4:4 from a console, is probably correct, and perhaps any conversion or dynamic range scaling and conversion on NVIDIA's / Windows side is more efficient than the TV converting RGB which it isn't expecting and built for, this is why we have the PC Mode on the TV, for RGB PC amongst other things, it would take into account a PC signal over a bluray player / game console I'd believe.

I set my PC to YcbCr 4:4:4, then I change it to RGB Full and let it sit on the countdown for me to click accept before it reverts except i watch the banding pattern closely and pay attention ,then when the countdown in the background reverts I pay attention to the image when it comes back up in YcbCr 4:4:4 and I can see minor banding improvements, it's smoother and less harsh in the areas that pop up easily for me to see in RGB Full.

I've also noticed there may be a difference between RGB Full and Limited, in fact it may be the Limited and Full ranges that are giving me improvements as RGB Limited shows less banding too, and as I mentioned previously I noticed RGB Limited gave me better Gamma results, so perhaps RGB Limited is the beneficial.

EDIT: Okay yep so I took a break as family came around (because SOME PEOPLE don't seem to care about social-distancing right now..) and came back and had another look.

I can definitely see more banding on lagom's gradient banding test on RGB Full, if you change it to RGB Limited it's smoother, and then YcbCr is smoother by a smidge to my eyes, but this may be because I calibrated the greyscale on YcbCr, so it looks like the TV prefers Limited instead of Full, I really should check with the TV at factory settings, perhaps the next time I calibrate I'll reset the settings back to default and check.

For now, I can definitely see a smoother gradient using YcbCr 4:4:4 vs RGB Full
Perhaps this is just down to 4:4:4 being Limited Dynamic Range though vs RGB's Full Dynamic range, given what I mentioned about similiar / improved results with RGB Limited..

Again to me it makes sense though, because setting the PC to Limited and / or YcbCr 4:4:4 while using the TV in Game Console or similiar source presets and Game Mode with the UHD mode toggled on means the TV is set up for use with a game console or bluray player type device, which both output in YcbCr 4:2:2 or sometimes 4:4:4 both in Limited Dynamic Range..

Regardless, at the end of all this, I'm sure the difference in real world content is very minimal and not noticeable under normal viewing conditions, but I am a huge sucker for perfection and getting settings dialed into their absolute best positions, hahaha..

EDIT: Came across this, the internet is divided but this sheds a bit of light, it looks like it really just comes down to the individual TV, someone even said go RGB Full if your TV doesn't introduce banding and such, which it appears ours (or mine) does.
https://hardforum.com/threads/do-i-u...4k-tv.1963448/

Last edited by CluckerByte; 04-24-2020 at 02:58 AM.
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post #11084 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CluckerByte View Post
Ok, so I tested using this site - http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gradient.php

RGB gives me a smidgen more banding I can see in the greys and whites than using YcbCr 4:4:4

Now, I calibrated using 4:4:4 for greyscale and colour, so I don't know if this would really affect it, as I know once before when I switched to RGB and checked my calibration I was still basically inline with the results from when I was on 4:4:4 for the most part.

If 4:4:4 is showing less banding, I would think this would mean that the TV probably expects a 4:4:4 signal and sending YcbCr from Windows to the TV in a mode such as Game Console where it expects 4K 4:4:4 from a console, is probably correct, and perhaps any conversion or dynamic range scaling and conversion on NVIDIA's / Windows side is more efficient than the TV converting RGB which it isn't expecting and built for, this is why we have the PC Mode on the TV, for RGB PC amongst other things, it would take into account a PC signal over a bluray player / game console I'd believe.

I set my PC to YcbCr 4:4:4, then I change it to RGB Full and let it sit on the countdown for me to click accept before it reverts except i watch the banding pattern closely and pay attention ,then when the countdown in the background reverts I pay attention to the image when it comes back up in YcbCr 4:4:4 and I can see minor banding improvements, it's smoother and less harsh in the areas that pop up easily for me to see in RGB Full.

I've also noticed there may be a difference between RGB Full and Limited, in fact it may be the Limited and Full ranges that are giving me improvements as RGB Limited shows less banding too, and as I mentioned previously I noticed RGB Limited gave me better Gamma results, so perhaps RGB Limited is the beneficial.

EDIT: Okay yep so I took a break as family came around (because SOME PEOPLE don't seem to care about social-distancing right now..) and came back and had another look.

I can definitely see more banding on lagom's gradient banding test on RGB Full, if you change it to RGB Limited it's smoother, and then YcbCr is smoother by a smidge to my eyes, but this may be because I calibrated the greyscale on YcbCr, so it looks like the TV prefers Limited instead of Full, I really should check with the TV at factory settings, perhaps the next time I calibrate I'll reset the settings back to default and check.

For now, I can definitely see a smoother gradient using YcbCr 4:4:4 vs RGB Full
Perhaps this is just down to 4:4:4 being Limited Dynamic Range though vs RGB's Full Dynamic range, given what I mentioned about similiar / improved results with RGB Limited..

Again to me it makes sense though, because setting the PC to Limited and / or YcbCr 4:4:4 while using the TV in Game Console or similiar source presets and Game Mode with the UHD mode toggled on means the TV is set up for use with a game console or bluray player type device, which both output in YcbCr 4:2:2 or sometimes 4:4:4 both in Limited Dynamic Range..

Regardless, at the end of all this, I'm sure the difference in real world content is very minimal and not noticeable under normal viewing conditions, but I am a huge sucker for perfection and getting settings dialed into their absolute best positions, hahaha..

EDIT: Came across this, the internet is divided but this sheds a bit of light, it looks like it really just comes down to the individual TV, someone even said go RGB Full if your TV doesn't introduce banding and such, which it appears ours (or mine) does.
https://hardforum.com/threads/do-i-u...4k-tv.1963448/
So for console (non pc) gaming, use rgb and limited?
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post #11085 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 04:49 AM
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So for console (non pc) gaming, use rgb and limited?
My understanding is that Bluray Player, Game Console, Movie and TV Show standards are generally stored / broadcast in YCbCr 4:2:2 Limited, so that's what you should set those devices to, to reduce conversions and try to retain the original content as much as possible.

When it comes to PC, Windows and it's content (User Interface, Games, Browsers, Picture Viewers etc) are built with RGB values as the proper normal way for a long time to operate a computer has been with a computer monitor which takes in and displays an RGB signal.

When it comes to a TV, which is usually built to take in and translate a YCbCr signal, this makes me question whether I should output RGB or YCbCr, as I don't know which signal gets untouched the most.

I believe Limited causes less banding than Full when it comes to Dynamic Range, and I think I won't be able to have the best of both worlds and will have to choose whether I prefer YCbCr for Movies via Plex and maybe YouTube videos if they're generated via YCbCr, or RGB for Games and the rest of Windows use.

I have no idea whether setting NVIDIA Control Panel to YCbCr means you get baseline YCbCr values, or it takes the RGB signal, converts to YCbCr, and then sends to the TV, and then I don't know if the TV converts to RGB, or displays the YCbCr signal bit for bit.

I have a hunch when it comes to Windows PC's, you're probably best off using RGB for less converted colours, and Limited dynamic range for better greyscale ramping / less banding.

I changed to YCbCr 4:2:2 10bit to do some testing, from memory a while ago changing between RGB and YCbCr / Low and Full gave me different results for HDR tone mapping, some combinations mapped better, and I believe it was the YCbCr that worked out to be better, I cannot remember though if 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 made any differences though between eachother.

Ah the questions I would love to have answered! Hehe
The answer is probably that there is no perfect conversion and you'll have to give *something* up and just have to pick whatever ticks the most of your boxes in terms of what's most important to you as a PC enthusiast haha.

Again after all this, the differences between just leaving the default settings, and using optimised researched and tested settings likely yields little to no perceivable difference anyway lol..

TL;DR - I would recommend setting your Game Console to YCbCr, and if you have the option to be granular, in particular I would advise YCbCr 4:2:2 which will allow 10bit colour natively instead of dithering, allowing for the most direct untouched image possible from where I stand and how I see things currently.
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post #11086 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 04:57 AM
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Again after all this, the differences between just leaving the default settings, and using optimised researched and tested settings likely yields little to no perceivable difference anyway lol..
Exactly. The Samsung engineers got it right. Anything else is a distortion of that and other viewers better like or it's just too bad for them.
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post #11087 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 05:03 AM
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Exactly. The Samsung engineers got it right. Anything else is a distortion of that and other viewers better like or it's just too bad for them.
When it comes to using a PC with the TV, I do not agree with this, my reasoning is because they built the PC Mode for PC, however us PC users tend to prefer the Game Console mode instead with Game Mode switched on which expects a Game Console instead, which doesn't output as RGB and therefore likely expects a different signal.

When I switch to PC Mode, the gradient is extremely smooth on my PC, you lose some smoothness when switching out of PC Mode and like I said I notice a improvement on Limited vs Full, I am just trying to work out what is ideal for a PC to output to the TV when you're using a Mode on the TV not built for a PC.

I tell a lie though in my previous post, I had a feeling some content uses 4:2:0 and I was right, see below:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/chroma-subsampling

TV Shows and Movies do utilise 4:2:0, so unless they built some type of switcher than took exclusive control of the TV and changed settings for each viewing type, or you manually did it yourself as per each type of content, you're going to have conversion somewhere along the line for content no matter what, so for now, I am going to see how RGB Limited and YCbCr with it's respective 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 tonemap with HDR and choose the best one (HDR is uncalibrated atm) as I don't think YCbCr and RGB affect SDR as much as it does HDR tonemapping, but I can see Full and Limited affect SDR banding.

EDIT: Also that article I listed touches on something I mentioned a while ago, which is that all of these TV's from Sony, Samsung, TCL etc have their UHD Colour modes which exist to unlock the ability to use the TV in it's full glory, being 3840x2160 @ 60Hz @ 10bit for HDR, and you can only acheive this via Chroma 4:2:2 maximum, which tells me this is what the TV expects to receive as a signal, so this is what I would set my devices to that are not a PC.

As I mentioned above, for a PC I think I would test Full vs Limited and see which (if any) are better for banding, and then choose YCbCr vs RGB based on HDR tonemapping results (the colour clipping test on YouTube via Microsoft Edge) and if you don't have a HDR TV or don't use HDR I would just default to RGB with as I said the Full / Limited setting being what gives you the best banding results.

Or if your name is Gary, and you like to enjoy life and not be stuck in a cave splitting hairs for no reason, just leave NVIDIA Control Panel left to default and enjoy your kickass TV, lmfao.

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post #11088 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 05:18 AM
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When it comes to using a PC with the TV, I do not agree with this
...skipping the reasoning but you may be correct. PC to TV so last century I don't pay attention.
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...skipping the reasoning but you may be correct. PC to TV so last century I don't pay attention.
Awe and I thought I was going to get some quality conversation, but you just wanted to come back in and preach for Sammy's engineers, haha oh well.

For anyone interested, here's a cool write up - https://pcmonitors.info/articles/cor...-and-amd-gpus/

Pay attention to the "Third solution: using the YCbCr444 colour signal" segment, where setting a PC Monitor to YCbCr and measuring the result differences (that were reproducible reliably) ended up showing that compared to RGB, YCbCr ended up giving a more accurate colour temperature and Delta E figure, which is hilarious but goes to show it's worth investigating these things and not just trusting others.

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post #11090 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 05:59 AM
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Okay another update, early testing but I noticed something odd (in a positive way)

So I have been using Game Motion Plus recently to reduce the panel's blur, and slightly improve low framerate content judder without making it soap opera style, and I noticed, specific to the De-Blur function, that having this turned on introduced a lot of artifacts for reticles in the centre of the screen when panning and looking around fast (call of duty, doom eternal, minecraft lol)

I also noticed (I'm not sure if it's from De-Blur or De-Judder) but when I would be in Add or Remove Programs, moving my mouse up and down the list of installed programs would spaz them out and give a similiar double up effect as the reticle in games (so probably a De-Blur artifact)

I have noticed it improve more and more as firmware updates go by, still noticeable but less break up of the cross hair.
However, since I switched to YCbCr 4:2:2 10bit earlier, I was watching some gameplay and noticed essentially a lack of artifacts now for the centre crosshair in minecraft, doom eternal and call of duty, as if the stability of the image with Game Motion Plus is improved now, I also tested the Add and Remove programs one I mentioned above and did get it to spaz out after a bit of trying but hands down absolutely harder to reproduce compared to before.

Specifically there's a call of duty clip I used to use to test here
which I've been able to replicate the issue on the same part of the video since I owned the TV, however now while the issue is still there its very minor and not as noticeable, and for other games that I mentioned the issue as basically disappeared from what I can see.

This is quite awesome, and perhaps got something to do with the TV processing an image more inline with the signal it expects to receive from said game console for example, which tends to output at YCbCr 4:2:2

Promising results so far, I think I'm really dialing in on the best settings to use with a PC, hopefully at some stage I can test this with somebody else and see if they have a similiar experience.

EDIT: Nope, looks like I still have the same issue, I tested in-game at native 4K and I get artifacts that videos of the same type of gameplay just don't give, verified via Doom Eternal crosshair still giving bad artifacts. Windows artifacting is better though so unsure. Will continue testing further over more time.

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post #11091 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 03:49 PM
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For now, I can definitely see a smoother gradient using YcbCr 4:4:4 vs RGB Full
Perhaps this is just down to 4:4:4 being Limited Dynamic Range though vs RGB's Full Dynamic range, given what I mentioned about similiar / improved results with RGB Limited..

Again to me it makes sense though, because setting the PC to Limited and / or YcbCr 4:4:4 while using the TV in Game Console or similiar source presets and Game Mode with the UHD mode toggled on means the TV is set up for use with a game console or bluray player type device, which both output in YcbCr 4:2:2 or sometimes 4:4:4 both in Limited Dynamic Range..
Just to be sure, when you do switch between RGB full vs limited, you do correspondingly change the HDMI Black Level in the TV menu right? Otherwise it would change the full or limited to 0-255 or 16-235 range respectively, which makes the picture looks washed out or black crush respectively if set wrong, so it has to match, and naturally when I do match them I do seem to get the exact same results, I do not notice much banding but hey, im just gonna take you word for it and switch to RGB Limited and then set HDMI black level to Low instead (I had RGB > Full and Black Level > Normal before), and possibly enjoy having better banding with no downside in my eyes, so its a win win.

I will never use YcbCr 4:2:2 (in NCP) as long as I use the TV for PC desktop stuff as the text gets blurry worse readabily, one only has to use this picture provided by Rtings and try 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 and you see clear difference in text clarity. But for movies and games this is not noticable so it wont matter, when I switch over to anything other than PC, for example PS4, there is no issue and its naturally in 4:2:2 I think, there is no NCP there so cant change anyway :P

Its interesting to see your results. I will keep using RGB limited unless I see some clearer proof that YcbCr 4:4:4 is better for PC. In regards to HDR I will keep using 8bit and let the games adjust it themselves, there doesnt seem to be any advantage to go through the hassle of lowering to YcbCr 4:2:2 and 10bit in NCP every time I start up a game - Having to go to the damn Windows settings and enable Windows HD color manually for most games every time is already plenty annoying. I appreciate your efforts in trying to get the best picture possible! When you spend so much money on a TV its understandable we'd want the best settings we can possibly get
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post #11092 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 06:01 PM
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Just to be sure, when you do switch between RGB full vs limited, you do correspondingly change the HDMI Black Level in the TV menu right? Otherwise it would change the full or limited to 0-255 or 16-235 range respectively, which makes the picture looks washed out or black crush respectively if set wrong, so it has to match, and naturally when I do match them I do seem to get the exact same results, I do not notice much banding but hey, im just gonna take you word for it and switch to RGB Limited and then set HDMI black level to Low instead (I had RGB > Full and Black Level > Normal before), and possibly enjoy having better banding with no downside in my eyes, so its a win win.

I will never use YcbCr 4:2:2 (in NCP) as long as I use the TV for PC desktop stuff as the text gets blurry worse readabily, one only has to use this picture provided by Rtings and try 4:4:4 vs 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 and you see clear difference in text clarity. But for movies and games this is not noticable so it wont matter, when I switch over to anything other than PC, for example PS4, there is no issue and its naturally in 4:2:2 I think, there is no NCP there so cant change anyway :P

Its interesting to see your results. I will keep using RGB limited unless I see some clearer proof that YcbCr 4:4:4 is better for PC. In regards to HDR I will keep using 8bit and let the games adjust it themselves, there doesnt seem to be any advantage to go through the hassle of lowering to YcbCr 4:2:2 and 10bit in NCP every time I start up a game - Having to go to the damn Windows settings and enable Windows HD color manually for most games every time is already plenty annoying. I appreciate your efforts in trying to get the best picture possible! When you spend so much money on a TV its understandable we'd want the best settings we can possibly get
Hey boss, yes I set the TV to Auto and it adjusts correctly when NVCP is switched between Full and Limited, so I'm seeing the correct image on both ends. I tried 4:2:2 a while ago and noticed issues with text, I think when I was using the TV in PC Mode though, I'm not seeing much of an effect at all on text which is why I am happy to use it for now. I don't think 4:2:2 10bit had any effect on Game Motion Plus as I originally had Windows graphical effects disabled which changes the animations and stuff, and I enabled the default settings earlier before switching to 4:2:2 which I think changed the way scroll over highlighting works on some stuff and is probably why I don't get as much artifacting on Add or Remove programs.

I have tested further since my last post but after letting everything from yesterday sink in, I believe using Limited Range RGB / YCbCr is the way to go at least on this TV with Game Console & Game Mode selected.

I am using the TV with Freesync Ultimate enabled too and G-Sync compatibility enabled in the NVCP, whether that works or not (still no tearing so far).

I think the only real thing I want to see from here is whether RGB or YCbCr gives better HDR Tonemapping, and which one out of the box gives a closer result to the calibration requirement - SRGB 2.2 6500K

So far YCbCr has come ahead in that department with my calibration tests and HDR pattern tests.
More testing needs to be done for sure though.

EDIT: By the way with my NVCP set to YCbCr 4:2:2 10bit I am able to see your attached image just fine, there is no broken text at the bottom, I've seen and used that test before too. I also checked via this website here - https://www.geeks3d.com/20141203/how...our-4k-uhd-tv/

EDIT: Hmm, even setting NVCP to 4:2:0 8bit is not giving me issues seeing the bottom two lines, something is wrong. If you change your NVCP to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 do those bottom lines become broken up like seen in my link above?

Perhaps G-Sync / Freesync is causing an issue, I've got too many things going on, lol.

Very weird.

EDIT: Okay so I forgot my TV is run through my A/V Receiver which has it's own limitations, so the AV Receiver can do 4:4:4 @ 4K 60, there is no mention of 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 so I think something is happening to the signal since the A/V Receiver probably doesn't support the other 2 and I'm not actually getting 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 so I will go back to just testing 4:4:4 and RGB against each other. Perhaps given my A/V Receiver this is why I notice a benefit using Low dynamic range instead of Full, as the A/V Receiver probably is built to handle Low range given usually you hook up DVD players and game consoles to it, not PC's.

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post #11093 of 11208 Old 04-24-2020, 08:50 PM
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So I've learned new information surrounding fps playback of video content and refresh rate of displays, I thought when for example setting a lower refresh rate, the TV displays that refresh rate natively, for example setting Windows to 1080p60hz would make the display display 1920x1080 pixels 60 times a second, and 1080p120hz would make the display display 1920x1080 pixels 120 times a second.

Apparently, from what I've been able to gather, Whatever the highest native refresh rate for a resolution is, is what the TV ends up essentially upconverting lower signal content to, so for example the Q9FN can do 120hz at 1080p and 1440p, however at 4K due to bandwidth limitations of HDMI 2.0b, you can only refresh at a maximum of 60hz.

Given what I've learned, this means if you playback 24fps movies, even if you set the likes of Plex to set the display to 24hz, which I can confirm via the on-screen TV display from the remote, the TV isn't actually displaying 24 frames of content, but rather for 4k60hz it's using the pulldown method and displaying 1 frame 3 times and each other 2 times which introduces minor judder in some scenes, and for 120hz panels or resolutions each frame 5 times for an equal divide into 120hz.

In saying this and learning this new information, this would indicate that using a native 120hz panel and resolution combination would give you perfect frame handling for all common fps content (Movies / TV shows at 24fps, other video at 30fps, and games at 60fps / 120fps) since all of those numbers divide perfectly into 120hz.

This is just another annoyance on my mind about not being able to have it all hehe, going to have to wait for more HDMI 2.1 TV's that will allow for native 4K 120Hz, we are really quite close these days to being able to have a TV that will give us perfect frame divisibility, low input lag, low blur, high colour gamut, and high refresh rate.

Thought this might be interesting for anybody that didn't know, and thought when playing movies through their PC at 24hz that the TV was perfectly playing 24fps a second only. In fact apparently we never even in cinemas watch 24fps natively, it is instead played on a projector that natively runs the image really at 48 or 72hz and just doubles or triples each frame for perfect reproduction, less judder is noticeable in the cinemas though apparently due to projector lense flashing and how we see the final image compared to the way a TV reproduces the same image at 24 frames or frame intervals divided into our refresh rate.

#EnthusiastLife ..
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post #11094 of 11208 Old 04-25-2020, 04:59 AM
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So I've learned new information surrounding fps playback of video content and refresh rate of displays, I thought when for example setting a lower refresh rate, the TV displays that refresh rate natively, for example setting Windows to 1080p60hz would make the display display 1920x1080 pixels 60 times a second, and 1080p120hz would make the display display 1920x1080 pixels 120 times a second.

Apparently, from what I've been able to gather, Whatever the highest native refresh rate for a resolution is, is what the TV ends up essentially upconverting lower signal content to, so for example the Q9FN can do 120hz at 1080p and 1440p, however at 4K due to bandwidth limitations of HDMI 2.0b, you can only refresh at a maximum of 60hz.

Given what I've learned, this means if you playback 24fps movies, even if you set the likes of Plex to set the display to 24hz, which I can confirm via the on-screen TV display from the remote, the TV isn't actually displaying 24 frames of content, but rather for 4k60hz it's using the pulldown method and displaying 1 frame 3 times and each other 2 times which introduces minor judder in some scenes, and for 120hz panels or resolutions each frame 5 times for an equal divide into 120hz.

In saying this and learning this new information, this would indicate that using a native 120hz panel and resolution combination would give you perfect frame handling for all common fps content (Movies / TV shows at 24fps, other video at 30fps, and games at 60fps / 120fps) since all of those numbers divide perfectly into 120hz.

This is just another annoyance on my mind about not being able to have it all hehe, going to have to wait for more HDMI 2.1 TV's that will allow for native 4K 120Hz, we are really quite close these days to being able to have a TV that will give us perfect frame divisibility, low input lag, low blur, high colour gamut, and high refresh rate.

Thought this might be interesting for anybody that didn't know, and thought when playing movies through their PC at 24hz that the TV was perfectly playing 24fps a second only. In fact apparently we never even in cinemas watch 24fps natively, it is instead played on a projector that natively runs the image really at 48 or 72hz and just doubles or triples each frame for perfect reproduction, less judder is noticeable in the cinemas though apparently due to projector lense flashing and how we see the final image compared to the way a TV reproduces the same image at 24 frames or frame intervals divided into our refresh rate.

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It's not the TV "upconverting" the frame rate, the TVs display the frame rate that is broadcast from the source. Most TV and streaming sites broadcast in 30Hz or 60Hz, but their are devices like Apple TV and Fire Sticks that have settings to Match Frame Rate. If I set Match Frame Rate on my Apple TV and press the info button on a movie in Vudu it will show 1080/24p or 2160/24p.

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It's not the TV "upconverting" the frame rate, the TVs display the frame rate that is broadcast from the source. Most TV and streaming sites broadcast in 30Hz or 60Hz, but their are devices like Apple TV and Fire Sticks that have settings to Match Frame Rate. If I set Match Frame Rate on my Apple TV and press the info button on a movie in Vudu it will show 1080/24p or 2160/24p.
Understood, I am seeing conflicting information as some say that what the TV reports via it's OSD, is simply the signal it is receiving from the source, not the refresh rate it is putting out. Others say that it takes that signal (for example 1080p24) and simply reproduces it at the native refresh rate of the panel, whether that's cleanly divisible at 120Hz or 3:2 pulldown via 60Hz.

Rtings recommends turning on Auto Motion Plus for this TV and leaving the sliders at 0 to remove judder from 24p content (this applies to BluRay players, Consoles, PC's, Streaming Devices). They recommend similiar settings on other TV's for the same de-judder result.
This is what they have to say about their testing methods / 24p judder..

https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p

Judder Free 24p on 24Hz Signal
"This evaluation verifies whether a TV has judder on 24p videos sent via a 24Hz signal. This will tell you whether a DVD or Blu-ray player or a TV’s native streaming services, will have judder when playing movies. If you’re a big movie buff and use one of those mediums to watch movies, this test is somewhat important (more important if you’re bothered by 24p judder)."

Judder Free 24p on 60p Signal
"This test is to determine whether a TV has judder on 24p videos sent via a 60p signal. This will tell you whether movies played over a 60p signal (streaming devices, game consoles, etc) will have judder. If you hate judder and watch movies over one of those devices, you should get a TV that passes this test.

This test uses the same test process used in the judder-free 24p test, but with the 24p video sent over a 60hz progressive (60p) signal. To pass, a TV must be able to recognize that a 24 fps video is playing over a 60p signal, and adjust its refresh rate so that the video is played at 24 frames per second.

Once again, if the color of the squares in the resulting photo is not even, the TV has judder."

What are your thoughts on this? Do you stand by the belief that what the TV reports via it's OSD is the current TV's refresh rate? Do you have any way to quantify this and disprove the alternative take that I provided above? I don't understand why a TV would have judder and require the Auto Motion Plus settings on and both at 0 to remove judder on a 24Hz signal, where each frame should be perfectly delivered..

I can confirm running my TV at 2160p60 and turning on Game Motion Plus (since I'm using Game Mode) but leaving both sliders at 0, does indeed remove judder from 24p content. I just figured things like BluRay players send a 24Hz signal since that's all that's playing on the device (rather than a PC with a 60Hz or higher operating system as default) and when the TV gets that 24Hz signal from a BluRay player for example it reproduces that 24Hz at 60Hz or whatever the TV's native refresh rate is.

Interested to hear your thoughts after reading the above, I can also sort of interpret Rtings statement on 24p via 24Hz as meaning the TV does run at 24Hz, but don't understand why the motion settings are required to remove judder from that, and why it wouldnt just work if that was the case, instead my initial understanding of 24p being fed into 60/120hz would answer why we need the de-judder motion setting switched on, that's all I've got..

EDIT: Further down the article in a part labelled "THE CAUSE OF JUDDER ON 24P VIDEO" it seems to indicate I am right in my understanding of how this all works.

"TVs commonly have one of two refresh rates: 60Hz and 120Hz. 30Hz and 60Hz videos divide into those refresh rates evenly, which makes it easy for the TV panel to get the video to meet the panel refresh rate. For example, a 30Hz TV show would have each frame displayed four times on a 120Hz panel.

Likewise, most 120Hz panels can display 24Hz video without issue, because 24 goes into 120 five times. But some 60Hz TVs have difficulty. Because 24 does not divide into 60 evenly, doubling the frame rate still leaves 12 frames missing from meeting the TV’s refresh rate. To get to 60 fps, 60Hz TVs use a feature called ‘telecine,’ or 3:2 pulldown. This makes the video’s frames alternate displaying two and three times – hence 3:2 – which makes up the missing frames. The image below illustrates this."

They never really mention or confirm that a 24 can run at 24Hz, rather they always go into how a 24Hz signal is taken and fit into the TV's native refresh rate, so I believe I am right in saying that 24fps content or 24Hz signals, including 30fps content as well, simply has it's frame rate multiplied to fit perfectly into the refresh rate or via pulldown, and Auto Motion Plus / Game Motion Plus is required to alleviate this issue if you're running 2160p60 and not 1080p120 / 1440p120

I'd still like to hear your thoughts in case you feel I'm misinterpreting something in the article, or perhaps you come out with the same outcome as me..

Last edited by CluckerByte; 04-25-2020 at 05:49 AM.
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post #11096 of 11208 Old 04-25-2020, 05:47 AM
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Understood, I am seeing conflicting information as some say that what the TV reports via it's OSD, is simply the signal it is receiving from the source, not the refresh rate it is putting out. Others say that it takes that signal (for example 1080p24) and simply reproduces it at the native refresh rate of the panel, whether that's cleanly divisible at 120Hz or 3:2 pulldown via 60Hz.



Rtings recommends turning on Auto Motion Plus for this TV and leaving the sliders at 0 to remove judder from 24p content (this applies to BluRay players, Consoles, PC's, Streaming Devices). They recommend similiar settings on other TV's for the same de-judder result.

This is what they have to say about their testing methods / 24p judder..



https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p



Judder Free 24p on 24Hz Signal

"This evaluation verifies whether a TV has judder on 24p videos sent via a 24Hz signal. This will tell you whether a DVD or Blu-ray player or a TV’s native streaming services, will have judder when playing movies. If you’re a big movie buff and use one of those mediums to watch movies, this test is somewhat important (more important if you’re bothered by 24p judder)."



Judder Free 24p on 60p Signal

"This test is to determine whether a TV has judder on 24p videos sent via a 60p signal. This will tell you whether movies played over a 60p signal (streaming devices, game consoles, etc) will have judder. If you hate judder and watch movies over one of those devices, you should get a TV that passes this test.



This test uses the same test process used in the judder-free 24p test, but with the 24p video sent over a 60hz progressive (60p) signal. To pass, a TV must be able to recognize that a 24 fps video is playing over a 60p signal, and adjust its refresh rate so that the video is played at 24 frames per second.



Once again, if the color of the squares in the resulting photo is not even, the TV has judder."



What are your thoughts on this? Do you stand by the belief that what the TV reports via it's OSD is the current TV's refresh rate? Do you have any way to quantify this and disprove the alternative take that I provided above? I don't understand why a TV would have judder and require the Auto Motion Plus settings on and both at 0 to remove judder on a 24Hz signal, where each frame should be perfectly delivered..



I can confirm running my TV at 2160p60 and turning on Game Motion Plus (since I'm using Game Mode) but leaving both sliders at 0, does indeed remove judder from 24p content. I just figured things like BluRay players send a 24Hz signal since that's all that's playing on the device (rather than a PC with a 60Hz or higher operating system as default) and when the TV gets that 24Hz signal from a BluRay player for example it reproduces that 24Hz at 60Hz or whatever the TV's native refresh rate is.



Interested to hear your thoughts after reading the above, I can also sort of interpret Rtings statement on 24p via 24Hz as meaning the TV does run at 24Hz, but don't understand why the motion settings are required to remove judder from that, and why it wouldnt just work if that was the case, instead my initial understanding of 24p being fed into 60/120hz would answer why we need the de-judder motion setting switched on, that's all I've got..
I leave Auto motion plus set to 0/0 to remove judder always.

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post #11097 of 11208 Old 04-25-2020, 05:50 AM
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I leave Auto motion plus set to 0/0 to remove judder always.

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Seems you are right in doing so, I have updated the post you quoted.
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post #11098 of 11208 Old 04-25-2020, 05:52 AM
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Seems you are right in doing so, I have updated the post you quoted.
For almost everything the picture looks great and motion is great. Every once in awhile it looks like frames are skipped

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post #11099 of 11208 Old 04-25-2020, 05:56 AM
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For almost everything the picture looks great and motion is great. Every once in awhile it looks like frames are skipped

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Do you use a PC or something more inline with a player / streaming device / console of sorts?

I notice with Game Motion Plus enabled in my case on my PC (basically the same thing but for when Game Mode is enabled) that when I play lower framerate content like on YouTube in Google Chrome, things slow down to the refresh rate of the video, so like my mouse curser goes from 60fps smooth to 24fps/30fps laggy. This helps confirm that the TV is indeed doing something and makes sense to remove judder.

I have only noticed skipped frames at the start of a video playing when it's changing from Windows 60fps to the video after I full screen it, so can't complain.
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post #11100 of 11208 Old 04-25-2020, 06:28 AM
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Do you use a PC or something more inline with a player / streaming device / console of sorts?



I notice with Game Motion Plus enabled in my case on my PC (basically the same thing but for when Game Mode is enabled) that when I play lower framerate content like on YouTube in Google Chrome, things slow down to the refresh rate of the video, so like my mouse curser goes from 60fps smooth to 24fps/30fps laggy. This helps confirm that the TV is indeed doing something and makes sense to remove judder.



I have only noticed skipped frames at the start of a video playing when it's changing from Windows 60fps to the video after I full screen it, so can't complain.
I'm only using the built in apps, OTA antenna or my shield tv..... You tube usually looks like crap because the source usually sucks. If you watch something like a Blu Ray you can really see the amazing quality of picture and motion this tv really produces.

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