2018 Samsung Q9FN ''Owners thread'' ''No price talk'' - Page 79 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2341 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by LunaP View Post
You can enable it but its not supported, so you could end up damaging your panel if it attempts. I can also change it from UHD to 8k to as an option. There are tons of menu's in there, I only posted a few, however there's also info tabs that show what ur panel supports, so I leave those things off for that reason.


Sucks that I can't disable the dimming, despite what setting I use, running a full calibration ( 14 hours ) so it should be finishing up momentarily.
Right because Samsung is going to have an option for you to turn on that damages your panel

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post #2342 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 01:26 PM
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AVForums review has just gone up, and it got a 10/10

https://www.avforums.com/review/sams...n-review.14868
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post #2343 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 01:50 PM
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So how does rtings say out of the box calibration is bad and these guys say the opposite

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post #2344 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian_Barros View Post
Right because Samsung is going to have an option for you to turn on that damages your panel

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It's in their developer service menu, the average consumer will not and should not have access to it. You wouldn't be able to just turn these settings on without knowing how to get into the menu because it's locked behind a code sequence. Also, I believe they use the same service menu for a wide range of products and each Model does not get it own custom menu with settings specific to it.
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post #2345 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 02:20 PM
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What is the Denon compatibility issue

Is there an issue with the Denon AVR and the Q9FN? I have a Denon 4200W that I am hoping will work with the Q9 which I am awaiting.

If there is an issue, what is it and does it ably to all Denon's?

Thank you !
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post #2346 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Yeah hdr+ is like it's own mode. I just throw all the same settings from movie mode in there and then drop the color a bit to 20. And leave backlight and contrast at Max.

It's necessqry to keep them at Max since it's processing as hdr even if it's sdr content. Sdr looks more dim and natural in hdr+ mode at Max than say movie mode at Max since it's simulating that baseline 100 nit and boosting the highlights from there.


That’s some good info! I actually ignored that mode. I’ll try it once I get off work. I also agree with max contrast and backlight. You will se the diff like a scene with post lights. Those lights will be very bright without making the other parts bright. Thanks!


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post #2347 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 03:01 PM
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Hdr+ mode enables dynamic tone mapping of hdr 10 content. It's a great feature.
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Will adapt the current picture settings you have when you activated it? Like for example I have mine on movie mode with my personal settings, will it change any of that if I activated the hdr+ mode?


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HDR+ is simulated dynamic tonemapping, it’s important to note that if picture accuracy is important to you then you want to leave that option off. Some people like the extra pop that HDR+ gives, and that’s fine if you like it but there’s no way to actually add dynamic metadata to a signal that isn’t there. Right now the only true dynamic metadata is Dolby Vision or HDR10+

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post #2348 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Hdr+ mode enables dynamic tone mapping of hdr 10 content. It's a great feature.
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Originally Posted by Charles Garcia View Post
Will adapt the current picture settings you have when you activated it? Like for example I have mine on movie mode with my personal settings, will it change any of that if I activated the hdr+ mode?


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HDR+ is simulated dynamic tonemapping, it’s important to note that if picture accuracy is important to you then you want to leave that option off. Some people like the extra pop that HDR+ gives, and that’s fine if you like it but there’s no way to actually add dynamic metadata to a signal that isn’t there. Right now the only true dynamic metadata is Dolby Vision or HDR10+
It's not simulated dynamic tone mapping - it literally is dynamic tone mapping. However that is indeed different than dynamic metadata.

Dynamic tonemapping is when the tv takes the static metadata and applies tone mapping based on what is displayed on screen in a particular frame, applying tone mapping when it falls beyond the displays capabilities, and not applying when the frame falls within the displays capabilities.

Until recently almost all tvs wither ignored the static metadata and clipped the highlights beyond the tvs spec or they just applied a static tonemapping curve throughout the entire film based on the max brightness of the mastering display.

Dynamic metadata actually provides metadata and specific instructions for tonemapping on a frame by frame basis that can provide much better imagery on a TV when the content falls beyond it's spec, and in Dolby visions case can be tweaked by creators to provide an overall image that is close to the mastering display. No guesswork involved - dynamic tone mapping just gives a best guess.
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post #2349 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 03:28 PM
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So how does rtings say out of the box calibration is bad and these guys say the opposite

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Panel lottery would be my guess.

My calibration finished I'm not even at 100% srgb and argb is in the low 80's as opposed to the high 90's my q7 is which bewilders me, even my JS8500 had higher specs than this. I'm probably gonna shift it out today or tomorrow and see what luck brings. Bestbuy's already offering to bring one out to my house to swap here ( which is pretty damn nice of them ) verifying theres no hidden fee though.

I would however like to compare the default calibrations ( via the service menu w/ someone else here if possible ) since I'm showing gains higher on red while the others are lower on the rest by default.
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post #2350 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 03:35 PM
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If you're talking about the internal demo with all the blacks and color at the same time, I'm sure it will be available to download and put on a usb drive eventually.
Speaking of watching videos from the USB drive, has anyone run into any issues with this? As I was watching a couple HDR demos on mine, a prompt came up saying the USB drive was ejected and now I can't get the OCB to recognize the drive. I even unplugged the TV for a few and still no luck.

Also, should the Samsung logo on the bottom of the screen light up? Not that I want mine to, but I figured it would be on since their previous models did so.
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post #2351 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 03:39 PM
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Panel lottery would be my guess.

My calibration finished I'm not even at 100% srgb and argb is in the low 80's as opposed to the high 90's my q7 is which bewilders me, even my JS8500 had higher specs than this. I'm probably gonna shift it out today or tomorrow and see what luck brings. Bestbuy's already offering to bring one out to my house to swap here ( which is pretty damn nice of them ) verifying theres no hidden fee though.

I would however like to compare the default calibrations ( via the service menu w/ someone else here if possible ) since I'm showing gains higher on red while the others are lower on the rest by default.
Swap it? And what's wrong with yours

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post #2352 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 03:43 PM
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Saw availability for a 75 delivery next week and snuck an order in. Yay will be here on the 10th!
Look forward to your review on the 75" model. As we know, size differences can often bring different experience and issues or quality.

Spoiler!
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post #2353 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 03:53 PM
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Swap it? And what's wrong with yours

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You quoted it lol, color's low, I'm part of the low % that love their colors vivid and rich across the board vs weak in 1-2 colors vs the 3rd. Backlights always 100%, I'm in dynamic cuz it pops and I only use these as a PC monitor ( and occasional netflix (which keeps its own settings ) )

For the amount these cost, I want something that is a definite step up from my q7 not a side grade for like 1 additional feature ( FALD which is great btw ) as I could still hold off till 2019 if needed for the next range, though since its early adopter status I'm feeling it could just be bad luck w/ a bad batch is all. Samsungs pretty good at picking that up at least.

I'll do everything I can to get the best out of it lol

Spoiler!

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post #2354 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 04:27 PM
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You quoted it lol, color's low, I'm part of the low % that love their colors vivid and rich across the board vs weak in 1-2 colors vs the 3rd. Backlights always 100%, I'm in dynamic cuz it pops and I only use these as a PC monitor ( and occasional netflix (which keeps its own settings ) )

For the amount these cost, I want something that is a definite step up from my q7 not a side grade for like 1 additional feature ( FALD which is great btw ) as I could still hold off till 2019 if needed for the next range, though since its early adopter status I'm feeling it could just be bad luck w/ a bad batch is all. Samsungs pretty good at picking that up at least.

I'll do everything I can to get the best out of it lol

Spoiler!
I like my colors vivid too.
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post #2355 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 05:19 PM
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Look forward to your review on the 75" model. As we know, size differences can often bring different experience and issues or quality.
You can look at my totally unscientific first impressions of the 75" on page 65.
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post #2356 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 05:27 PM
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You can look at my totally unscientific first impressions of the 75" on page 65.

Did you get a chance to perform local dimming zone count?


Thanks
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post #2357 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 05:50 PM
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Are there any videos showcasing the Game Motion Plus setting?

I feel like that is by far the most groundbreaking aspect of these 2018 Samsungs. 60hz interpolation with input lag lower than most competitor's standard Game Mode.

I need to see it!
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post #2358 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 05:52 PM
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Did you get a chance to perform local dimming zone count?


Thanks
No did not.
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post #2359 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 07:06 PM
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Is there an issue with the Denon AVR and the Q9FN? I have a Denon 4200W that I am hoping will work with the Q9 which I am awaiting.

If there is an issue, what is it and does it ably to all Denon's?

Thank you !
Yes. From earlier posts from owners, there is an issue between the Denon's and the new Samsungs. It does not pass through the HDR 4k signal for some reason. One person reported that Denon had said it was on their end and that a firmware is coming out this month. But no update since it was brought up a few weeks ago.

I am looking at the Q9 as well, but i have a Denon 6400h and will wait until I hear this is not an issue.
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post #2360 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 07:23 PM
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I put my settings for hdr+ mode above in post 1603 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post56048534). I don't understand why backlight and contrast should be at max -- I don't have them that way.
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They need to be max because of two reasons:

1) with hdr content it needs to be the max brightness to map the highlights correctly, otherwise it shifts the entire luminance curve down as hdr uses pq luminance not gamma - pixels are set at specific levels of brightness not relative like gamma, so you make the dim elements dimmer than they should be if not on max.

2) with sdr content using hdr+, it converts a gamma based sdr signal to PQ and fixed luminance format and then expands the highlights from there. Once again, by not having on max, it shifts the lower end down too not just the high end.

Hdr needs to be on max brightness and contrast to function properly.
When we use hdr+ mode to display sdr, we're not displaying hdr, obviously. So what does it matter what an hdr signal needs? It's not an hdr signal.

I don't understand what your "2)" means. What is "fixed luminance format" ? Whatever that is, why do you think it works this way?

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post #2361 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 08:59 PM
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I replaced my 65” with a 75”...so far, the panel seems to be much cleaner in the dse, and general uniformity over the 65”, which I had been considering rolling the dice in the panel lottery, but ended up going bigger to take advantage of the extra cargo in my new hybrid.

Very happy with the new setup, and finally looking to replace xfinity with Hulu live...holy cow that is so much clearer. Really, xfinity, what are you thinking...so bad.

This is my first one and It’s really weird having 75”...took some adjusting getting into uncharted the lost legacy. It came pretty accurate out of the box, using very basic cal tools.
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post #2362 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 09:12 PM
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It's not simulated dynamic tone mapping - it literally is dynamic tone mapping. However that is indeed different than dynamic metadata.

Dynamic tonemapping is when the tv takes the static metadata and applies tone mapping based on what is displayed on screen in a particular frame, applying tone mapping when it falls beyond the displays capabilities, and not applying when the frame falls within the displays capabilities.

Until recently almost all tvs wither ignored the static metadata and clipped the highlights beyond the tvs spec or they just applied a static tonemapping curve throughout the entire film based on the max brightness of the mastering display.

Dynamic metadata actually provides metadata and specific instructions for tonemapping on a frame by frame basis that can provide much better imagery on a TV when the content falls beyond it's spec, and in Dolby visions case can be tweaked by creators to provide an overall image that is close to the mastering display. No guesswork involved - dynamic tone mapping just gives a best guess.
Sorry I was confused as I never heard the tearm dynamic tonemapping before, assumed you meant metadata. My point still stands though for accuracy, HDR+ is still applying algorithms to the picture that the director didn’t intend you to see. If you like it that’s cool, but I prefer my picture to be as accurate as possible.

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post #2363 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 11:13 PM
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I replaced my 65” with a 75”...so far, the panel seems to be much cleaner in the dse, and general uniformity over the 65”, which I had been considering rolling the dice in the panel lottery, but ended up going bigger to take advantage of the extra cargo in my new hybrid.

Very happy with the new setup, and finally looking to replace xfinity with Hulu live...holy cow that is so much clearer. Really, xfinity, what are you thinking...so bad.

This is my first one and It’s really weird having 75”...took some adjusting getting into uncharted the lost legacy. It came pretty accurate out of the box, using very basic cal tools.
Nice, I'm still debating on my side, can't go 75" though cuz to large for my room and I'd def go nuts seeing the scanlines or w/e these lines are called ( as if I can literally see the matte lines or something ( super thin) butit just feels interlaced or something not sure how to describe it if I'm within 4-5 feet, heck even further I just pick up on them idky, like microscopic tiny horizontal lines, no matter how close I get on the 55 q7 I can't seem to see them.

Just worried I might get a panel thats worse instead or just the same.


I wish they sold the 55" model in the US and not just UK.


Another thing I hate that samsung did was remove the 1-100 ( or was it 1-50 ) brightness and change it to -5 -> +5 making it jump exponentially vs a lil bit at a time so u really can't perfectly fine tune thingssadly.

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post #2364 of 11045 Old 05-02-2018, 11:38 PM
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Steve Withers AV Forums has posted a superb review
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post #2365 of 11045 Old 05-03-2018, 02:31 AM
 
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It's not simulated dynamic tone mapping - it literally is dynamic tone mapping. However that is indeed different than dynamic metadata.

Dynamic tonemapping is when the tv takes the static metadata and applies tone mapping based on what is displayed on screen in a particular frame, applying tone mapping when it falls beyond the displays capabilities, and not applying when the frame falls within the displays capabilities.

Until recently almost all tvs wither ignored the static metadata and clipped the highlights beyond the tvs spec or they just applied a static tonemapping curve throughout the entire film based on the max brightness of the mastering display.

Dynamic metadata actually provides metadata and specific instructions for tonemapping on a frame by frame basis that can provide much better imagery on a TV when the content falls beyond it's spec, and in Dolby visions case can be tweaked by creators to provide an overall image that is close to the mastering display. No guesswork involved - dynamic tone mapping just gives a best guess.
Sorry I was confused as I never heard the tearm dynamic tonemapping before, assumed you meant metadata. My point still stands though for accuracy, HDR+ is still applying algorithms to the picture that the director didn’t intend you to see. If you like it that’s cool, but I prefer my picture to be as accurate as possible.
Hdr+ will end up being more accurate actually, as the tone mapping is only applied sparingly.for scenes that exceed the q9s spec, which is quite rare with such incredible power. Without hdr+, the tone mapping is applied whether the scene needs or not and dark content can end up darker than it should be or highlights get messed up.
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post #2366 of 11045 Old 05-03-2018, 02:40 AM
 
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I put my settings for hdr+ mode above in post 1603 (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...l#post56048534). I don't understand why backlight and contrast should be at max -- I don't have them that way.
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They need to be max because of two reasons:

1) with hdr content it needs to be the max brightness to map the highlights correctly, otherwise it shifts the entire luminance curve down as hdr uses pq luminance not gamma - pixels are set at specific levels of brightness not relative like gamma, so you make the dim elements dimmer than they should be if not on max.

2) with sdr content using hdr+, it converts a gamma based sdr signal to PQ and fixed luminance format and then expands the highlights from there. Once again, by not having on max, it shifts the lower end down too not just the high end.

Hdr needs to be on max brightness and contrast to function properly.
When we use hdr+ mode to display sdr, we're not displaying hdr, obviously. So what does it matter what an hdr signal needs? It's not an hdr signal.

I don't understand what your "2)" means. What is "fixed luminance format" ? Whatever that is, why do you think it works this way?
It matters what hdr needs because with hdr+ mode and sdr content it is faking the signal as hdr.

Think about when you have an sdr signal, it's graded for 100 nit. When you mess with contrast and backlight you exceed this by quite a bit because of the gamma function, which tweaks the entire luminance curve when you add more backlight power, which results in things getting blown out or dark scenes being brighter than they should be. Gamma is called a relative curve because the brightness of the image is relative based on the amount of total brightness of a display, a 5% gray isnt a precise brightness, it's 5% of the displays total brightness. If you have a 100 nit tv that's 5 nits, on a 1000 nit tv that could be 50 nits. That's why calibrating for sdr is important because it's relative.

Hdr is fixed. When you add more backlight, you're not adding more brightness to the whole range, you're adding more headroom for highlights. Images aren't drawn on a % basis, they're displayed on a fixed nit basis. So to get 5 nits, the metadata says display 5 nits, there's no % involved. So if the tv is 100, 1000 or a million nits, it's going to display a fixed 5 nits if instructed to. Problem is that when you lower the backlight you give less room for the entire range of fixed numbers so it typically shifts them down lower than they should be and 5 nits could becpme 2 nits.

Hdr+ tries to simulate this with sdr content so it maps the image to a fixed 100 nit, then expands highlights through it's software analysis to simulate hdr and by adding more backlight you give more headroom for the extrapolated highlights to breathe.
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post #2367 of 11045 Old 05-03-2018, 05:54 AM
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Hdr+ tries to simulate this with sdr content so it maps the image to a fixed 100 nit, then expands highlights through it's software analysis to simulate hdr and by adding more backlight you give more headroom for the extrapolated highlights to breathe.
Thank you for the clarification. But I still don't see why you think it works this way (unless you're a Samsung engineer). The algorithm for converting sdr to the hdr+ification version can't actually see the screen as the user changes the Backlight and Contrast controls, of course, so I don't see why it should follow any particular rule about how user controlled brightnesses are to be used in simulating hdr.

I don't turn Backlight and Contrast up all the way when using hdr+, because when I do, it blows out white details.

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post #2368 of 11045 Old 05-03-2018, 06:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
Hdr+ tries to simulate this with sdr content so it maps the image to a fixed 100 nit, then expands highlights through it's software analysis to simulate hdr and by adding more backlight you give more headroom for the extrapolated highlights to breathe.
Thank you for the clarification. But I still don't see why you think it works this way (unless you're a Samsung engineer). The algorithm for converting sdr to the hdr+ification version can't actually see the screen as the user changes the Backlight and Contrast controls, of course, so I don't see why it should follow any particular rule about how user controlled brightnesses are to be used in simulating hdr.

I don't turn Backlight and Contrast up all the way when using hdr+, because when I do, it blows out white details.
I dont follow you. The process I explained is quite elementary in nature I'm sorry if I was not clear enough but I'm not sure what you mean by the algorithm can't see the screen.

The algorithm expands highlights beyond 100 nit to what the device is capable of while keeping mids and low end detail in the 100 nit range. By turning the backlight and contrast down you are compressing the entire luminance curve which inadvertently shifts that mid and low end detail below where it should be on the fixed scale. I can't really elaborate much more than that.
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post #2369 of 11045 Old 05-03-2018, 07:35 AM
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Does anyone know if contrast enhancer increases nit output? It looks like it changes the gamma curve, but does it actually increase the tv's light output?

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post #2370 of 11045 Old 05-03-2018, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_Barros View Post
So how does rtings say out of the box calibration is bad and these guys say the opposite
Could be unit variation, more than likely different opinions.........as one guy you get one answer, ask another....
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