2018 Sony XBR 900F owners thread (No Price Talk) - Page 139 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4141 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mzupeman View Post
But isn’t xtended dynamic range sort of ‘hdr-ing’ sdr content? Not amazingly so granted, but I sort of thought that was part of its function with sdr stuff.
I see where you are coming from with that....but in regards to SDR, Xtended Dynamic range has more to do with artificially enhancing contrast/blacks in dark scenes and overall brightness in bright scenes (and yes some colour saturation)....but it does not actually turn SDR content into HDR content as you won't get the same colour saturation, detail and specular highlights (because the FALD system will not act the same) which all make HDR mastered content typically "pop" compared to SDR sourced content.

That said, your point is well taken as the intent of the Xtended dynamic range function is to give all signals a more rich and vibrant image. It certainly can be an element of the upscaling process but at the end of the day it is still SDR mastered content (which can be sourced from SD, HD and UHD resolutions), that just has a nice candy coating and not actually converting (or even attempting to convert) SDR to HDR. Really, "upscaling" is a more of a function regarding resolution and not Standard or High dynamic range.

I think your labeling it "HDR-ing" SDR is a fair interpretation of Xtended Dynamic Range Pro.
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post #4142 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Coercion Shaman View Post
Not true according to every professorial reviewer out there. The TV up-converts or upgrades. Here is an excerpt from Forbes:

Even more cleverly, the way the SDR to HDR conversion processing (present with all but the True Cinema picture preset) gently opens up an SDR picture’s brightness and color range is almost always a joy to behold.

There’s hardly ever so much as a hint of the unbalanced colors, forced-looking peak whites and waxy skin tones associated with other SDR-to-HDR converters.

So effective is the 65X900F at converting ‘legacy’ sources to the 4K HDR capabilities of its screen, in fact, that you can merrily switch between all sorts of different source formats without ever feeling like you’re not getting some sort of 4K HDR experience.

And one from techradar:

The same is true for the X900F’s system for converting standard dynamic range (SDR) images to HDR. Similar ‘upgrading’ is now offered by most other TV brands, but there’s a naturalism and subtlety to Sony’s HDR upgrade (which introduces both enriched colors and an expanded brightness range) that makes the resulting images uniquely consistent and convincing.

Sony is so confident about its HDR upgrade system, in fact, that it’s applied by default to the majority of the TV’s picture presets. That said, if you DO turn the HDR upscaling off (by selecting the True Cinema mode), SDR pictures still look beautiful. Colors remain exceptionally rich but also subtle; light still looks beautifully handled; and dark scenes continue to be rich in black level and shadow detail.

In fact, dark scenes in some ways look better than they do in Sony’s HDR upgrade mode, since there’s no hint of the slight ‘blooming’ of light around stand-out bright objects that occasionally materialises with the HDR ‘upgrading’ processing active.

For us, the benefits of the HDR upscaling mean it’s pretty much always worth sticking with. But rest assured that if you want to watch SDR images as they were originally designed to be seen, the 65X900F/65XF9005 does a terrific job of that too.

And from the Sony website:

With Object-based HDR remaster, the color in individual objects on screen is analyzed and the contrast adjusted, unlike most TVs where contrast is only adjusted along one black-to-white contrast curve. Because objects are remastered individually, this TV can reproduce greater depth, textures, and more realistic pictures.
I'm not denying any of that....but it really is a misapplication of the term(s). HDR content is mastered in that range and done so for a reason. Just because some reviewers like to use the terms "upscales" and "converts" when referring to a tv's ability to display SDR mastered content in "HDR like" fashion A) does not mean the content has been converted into HDR and B) doesn't mean they are appropriately describing what is happening. SDR content does not have at it's core the necessary information in it's signal to display in actual HDR. The process Sony uses is great....but it does not actually convert SDR signals to HDR. If you take a movie mastered in HDR and play it on the tv it will look one way and if you take that same movie mastered in SDR and display it on the tv it will look different. Sure there are some examples of fairly close approximations but at the end of the day there is a difference between SDR displayed with faux HDR elements and HDR mastered content displayed in an HDR format. That is also why the Sony system won't label anything being displayed as HDR unless it is receiving an HDR signal from the source....because if it did it would be a deception and fraudulent.

Again, I am not knocking Sony or the capability of this TV or other tv's in their range. I am simply pointing out a distinction between upscaling (which is what the term the OP I responded to used) which is ultimately a conversation about resolution and how Sony uses their processor/processes to interpret and display lower res sourced content on a 4k display vs HDR/SDR display capabilities.

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post #4143 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 11:05 AM
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Thinking of getting one of these very soon XBR65X900F
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post #4144 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Coercion Shaman View Post
Even more cleverly, the way the SDR to HDR conversion processing (present with all but the True Cinema picture preset) gently opens up an SDR picture’s brightness and color range is almost always a joy to behold.
[/I]
I think this is simply a misunderstanding.

1. In Cinema Pro picture mode, under Advanced Settings>Brightness, Xtended dynamic range is off by default (unlike some other picture modes).

2. This preserves the intended look of films that were mastered in SDR.

3. This does not mean that Xtended dynamic range may not be manually adjusted if that is what you truly prefer.

Cinema Pro mode does not prevent you from using that feature: it is just turned off by default because this picture mode has defaults which preserve the director's intent.

So, you can either use a picture mode which does apply some level of Xtended dynamic range, or add Xtended dynamic range to the Cinema Pro mode. Nothing special is going on. Does this clear up the confusion?
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post #4145 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by hky4life View Post
I'm not denying any of that....but it really is a misapplication of the term(s). HDR content is mastered in that range and done so for a reason. Just because some reviewers like to use the terms "upscales" and "converts" when referring to a tv's ability to display SDR mastered content in "HDR like" fashion A) does not mean the content has been converted into HDR and B) doesn't mean they are appropriately describing what is happening. SDR content does not have at it's core the necessary information in it's signal to display in actual HDR. The process Sony uses is great....but it does not actually convert SDR signals to HDR. If you take a movie mastered in HDR and play it on the tv it will look one way and if you take that same movie mastered in SDR and display it on the tv it will look different. Sure there are some examples of fairly close approximations but at the end of the day there is a difference between SDR displayed with faux HDR elements and HDR mastered content displayed in an HDR format. That is also why the Sony system won't label anything being displayed as HDR unless it is receiving an HDR signal from the source....because if it did it would be a deception and fraudulent.

Again, I am not knocking Sony or the capability of this TV or other tv's in their range. I am simply pointing out a distinction between upscaling (which is what the OP was talking about) which is ultimately a conversation about resolution and how Sony uses their processor/processes to interpret and display lower res sourced content on a 4k display vs HDR/SDR display capabilities.

I will let it go at that then. I don't argue that it is now true HDR. I agree with you that it isn't. In the context of the post that started this, however, the 'faux HDR' conversion from SDR (or if someone incorrectly utilizes the term "up-conversion" or "upscaling') is still present in all modes except True Cinema as it is inherent to the TV's algorithms to modify the material as per the standard settings. It is not displayed exactly as it is received. It has been modified.


My point was to not dismiss his intent, but maybe I didn't understand the statement as written.
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Last edited by Coercion Shaman; 11-16-2018 at 06:13 AM. Reason: Clarity
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post #4146 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 11:28 AM
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I will let it go at that then. I don't argue that it is now true HDR. I agree with you that it isn't. In the context of the post that started this, however, the 'faux HDR' or up-conversion or upscaling is still present in all modes except True Cinema as it is inherent to the TV's algorithms to modify the material. It is not displayed exactly as it is received.


My point was to not dismiss his intent, but maybe I didn't understand the statement as written.
I appreciate the conversation as it does end up highlighting some of the features/capabilities of the tv and also in the end does contribute (hopefully) to some clarity on terms for myself and others. I fully acknowledge that I may have misinterpreted the OP's post myself. When I see the word upscaling, I tend to take it at face value as being a function of displaying lower res source content at a higher resolution on a higher res display. To me, strictly referring to Sony, I think the most appropriate term to describe the "Xtended Dynamic Range" functionality would be "enhancement" as it's function is not to convert an SDR source, but rather enhance SDR sources with HDR like qualities.
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post #4147 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 11:45 AM
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I appreciate the conversation as it does end up highlighting some of the features/capabilities of the tv and also in the end does contribute (hopefully) to some clarity on terms for myself and others. I fully acknowledge that I may have misinterpreted the OP's post myself. When I see the word upscaling, I tend to take it at face value as being a function of displaying lower res source content at a higher resolution on a higher res display. To me, strictly referring to Sony, I think the most appropriate term to describe the "Xtended Dynamic Range" functionality would be "enhancement" as it's function is not to convert an SDR source, but rather enhance SDR sources with HDR like qualities.

I agree with the correct terminology being 'enhancement'. As consumers, though, we have to be careful of how things are broadly referenced to the base as a whole be it by the industry or the reviewers that so many look to. Having said that, I also wholly agree on the conversation aspect. We need to question and clarify with one another. If we aren't careful, we inadvertently dismiss someone's questions or concerns otherwise. And that, hky4life, is exactly why were in an enthusiast forum together talking through these things.


I appreciate that we haven't all gotten upset or offended. Quite refreshing.
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post #4148 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 12:24 PM
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Hi KoRn, would you mind sharing your Dolby vision setting.
On my TV, Dolby vision on netflix through app on TV looks dull, graying and dark, even the scean is at daylight . Regular HD is really good. I tried playing with setting but it looks horrible. Other HD contents looks really good.

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The new tv stand is up and I can definitely recommend it for this 85” beast. Sony HT-ST5000 sound bar sits perfectly on it as well. I can sleep at night now not having to worry about glass breaking.
Looks great, now enjoy that beast? What did you watch first?
I don’t even remember tbh. Been watching so much content on it especially movies with Dolby Vision and Atmos. Last night we watched Aplha in Dolby Vision and it looked incredible. Dolby Vision is a must have once you expierence it. I am hooked now!
I leave it on default settings and it looks incredible. I don’t know how true this is. But, apparently manufactures work closely with Dolby optimizing tv defaults for Dolby Vision. As for Netflix. I use Apple TV 4K. So, I can’t comment on the built in tv apps since I don’t use them.
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post #4149 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 12:50 PM
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about to lose it with my Apple TV 4.

i have followed all of the suggestions of this forum but cannot seem to get the ATV to output 4k resolution or HDR. i have connected to HDMI port 2 and selected "enhanced hdmi" for bandwith. initially i used a monoprice certified premium hi speed cable and then took this forum's suggestion to try another cable (which i did, i went with the Belkin hi speed cable that apple recommends) and still nothing. on the TV picture settings i have HDR enabled to "auto" bc the HDR10 selection looks all distorted. I cant seem to get ATV to pass 4k HDR. the in tv apps (netflix) work fine for showing HDR. i've gone into the ATV settings and tried to select 'other resolutions" but not seeing anything close to HDR or 4k resolution. any other tips?
Sorry if this seems a silly question, but are you sure you have an Apple TV 4K, and not just the 4th generation Apple TV? They are not the same thing. The Apple TV 4K is labeled as such on the box, and if you go to the settings and find the about page, should show as model A1842. If your Apple TV shows as model A1625 (or your siri remote does not have the white circle around the menu button), that is just the 2015 4th gen Apple TV, which outputs at a max of 1080p. It sound like if the Apple TV is not even giving you the options to check if your display is compatible with 4K resolutions, then it is not the 4K capable model.

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post #4150 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 01:22 PM
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How does the local dimming on the 900f with the full array differ from local dimming on the 930e? I saw a review for the 930e that showed bloom on the top and bottom black bars in movies because the tv needed a bright image on that part of the screen. I linked the video and time below for reference. Would the 900f react the same way in this circumstance? Is bloom, in general, better or worse versus the 930e?


The scene I'm talking about is 3:52 for reference.
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post #4151 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 02:41 PM
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Sorry if this seems a silly question, but are you sure you have an Apple TV 4K, and not just the 4th generation Apple TV? They are not the same thing. The Apple TV 4K is labeled as such on the box, and if you go to the settings and find the about page, should show as model A1842. If your Apple TV shows as model A1625 (or your siri remote does not have the white circle around the menu button), that is just the 2015 4th gen Apple TV, which outputs at a max of 1080p. It sound like if the Apple TV is not even giving you the options to check if your display is compatible with 4K resolutions, then it is not the 4K capable model.
Hi. thanks, i wish that was the problem but it's not. i might just resort to using my in-tv apps.
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post #4152 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 03:04 PM
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How does the local dimming on the 900f with the full array differ from local dimming on the 930e? I saw a review for the 930e that showed bloom on the top and bottom black bars in movies because the tv needed a bright image on that part of the screen. I linked the video and time below for reference. Would the 900f react the same way in this circumstance? Is bloom, in general, better or worse versus the 930e?


The scene I'm talking about is 3:52 for reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBD9ivZPvPc&t=412s
I hope you read the caption during that scene that says exposure was changed to exaggerate the effect and more easily see the blooming. It doesn't actually look anywhere near that bad on the 930e or 900f which are similar in that regard. Both are a bit better than the 900e.
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post #4153 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LightsOut23 View Post
How does the local dimming on the 900f with the full array differ from local dimming on the 930e? I saw a review for the 930e that showed bloom on the top and bottom black bars in movies because the tv needed a bright image on that part of the screen. I linked the video and time below for reference. Would the 900f react the same way in this circumstance? Is bloom, in general, better or worse versus the 930e?


The scene I'm talking about is 3:52 for reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBD9ivZPvPc&t=412s
The 930e is edge lite, with the LED's on the top and bottom of the set, vs being on the sides (like past sony's) because of the led placement on the 930e you get more blooming in the black letterbox bars in certain sceens.

The 900F has it's LED rows placed directly behind the screen. 48 dimable zones

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post #4154 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 03:12 PM
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I will let it go at that then. I don't argue that it is now true HDR. I agree with you that it isn't. In the context of the post that started this, however, the 'faux HDR' or up-conversion or upscaling is still present in all modes except True Cinema as it is inherent to the TV's algorithms to modify the material as per the standard settings. It is not displayed exactly as it is received. It has been modified.


My point was to not dismiss his intent, but maybe I didn't understand the statement as written.
That's fine but that sdr to hdr process is separate from upconversion or upscaling. It's an 'enhancement' not a realignment. I suspect that's why the term isn't being deemed a good fit.
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post #4155 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 03:18 PM
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I hope you read the caption during that scene that says exposure was changed to exaggerate the effect and more easily see the blooming. It doesn't actually look anywhere near that bad on the 930e or 900f which are similar in that regard. Both are a bit better than the 900e.
I did read it and also already know how blooming generally looks. Thanks for the clarification though.

I couldn't find examples of the bloom on the 900f so was wondering how it compared with the new array setup on the 900f. You would think it would be better but it also has loss zones so wasn't sure. Black levels to me also looked better on the 930e when I went to see it, just didn't have my own content to see the bloom on each in person.
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post #4156 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 03:34 PM
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I did read it and also already know how blooming generally looks. Thanks for the clarification though.

I couldn't find examples of the bloom on the 900f so was wondering how it compared with the new array setup on the 900f. You would think it would be better but it also has loss zones so wasn't sure. Black levels to me also looked better on the 930e when I went to see it, just didn't have my own content to see the bloom on each in person.
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post #4157 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 04:33 PM
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So to me, it sounds like the 930e has deeper black and handles blooming better. Is the FALD on the 900f doing anything better than for edge-lit 930e?
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post #4158 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 05:21 PM
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Not really but the edge lit 930e is unique in that it doesn't band light in columns like others edge lit displays and behaves like a true fald. They reflect light etc to create horizontal zones. 900f has better motion than the other 2 and the other differences between it and the 930e shouldn't be noticeable unless it's HDR material. The rest is settings.
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post #4159 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 07:35 PM
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Forgive me as Im sure it has been asked already. I tread it do my own search but the option to search this thread only was faded out for me. Did some digging but didnt find the information I was looking for.

Im trying to find a analong extenstion cable the Sony x900f ask for. The trss calls for lvgr. The only ones I can find has the ground on the sleeve and not ring 2.

Does anyone know where I can purchase what I need or some solution for it. Would appreciate the help.
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post #4160 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 08:31 PM
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Ok too many typos in that post. No way to edit?


Forgive me as Im sure it has been asked already. I tried to do my own search but the option to search this thread only was faded out for me. Did some digging but didnt find the information I was looking for.

Im trying to find a analong extension cable the Sony x900f ask for. The trrs on the 3.5 pin calls for lvgr. The only ones I can find has the ground on the sleeve and not ring 2. I'm sure I could get any cable to work as long as ring 2 is ground.

Does anyone know where I can purchase what I need or some solution for it. Would appreciate the help.
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post #4161 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 10:45 PM
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Ok. After hours and searching. I think I found the right analog extension cable with the trrs being lrgv. Its not exact so the r and v rca will need to be swapped but the ground is in the proper place and it should work. Its sold by My Cable Mart. They have their own website or its sold on Amazon for a little more.
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post #4162 of 9979 Old 11-15-2018, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Godless comes to mind immediately. Lost in Space is DV. Stranger Things (I think it is in DV) is dark but done well. But as Rick stated, there are quite a few to view. If I remember correctly, you can just search for 4K UHD and try a few that come up.
Lost in Space was good

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Thinking of getting one of these very soon XBR65X900F
The best, most cost effective TV made.....
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post #4163 of 9979 Old 11-16-2018, 01:12 AM
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Hello,


I watched several 4k content (netflix 4k, HDR, DV, .mkv files) and played 4k games on my 65x900f and i am very pleased. But last week, i started to watch Haunting of Hill House and if you watched it, you know that it is a very dark and dolby vision series.



First of all, the white subtitles are incredibly bright and every time the subtitles appear, unlike normal 4k content nearly half of the screen gets bright in dark scenes and it is very disturbing. I changed the subtitles to semi-transparent (other colors are irrelevant) from netflix but i haven't tried it yet. Is there any other solution to subtitles problem in HDR or DV content?



Also unlike any other mode or content, during DV movies or tv series the brightness or black levels change continuously which is also very annoying. I disabled advanced contrast enhancer and it improved but i don't know if it is the right thing to do.



So do you have any recommendation, trick for HDR and DV content with subtitles? Thanks.
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post #4164 of 9979 Old 11-16-2018, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by js950 View Post
That's fine but that sdr to hdr process is separate from upconversion or upscaling. It's an 'enhancement' not a realignment. I suspect that's why the term isn't being deemed a good fit.

Again, as stated in a different post, this is how it is referred to by Sony and the reviewers and thus may be the way that is referenced by others that post here. Discuss the difference but don't dismiss it when used that way was my point.
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post #4165 of 9979 Old 11-16-2018, 05:21 AM
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'converting' or 'upgrading' is not the same as 'upconverting' or 'upscaling'. You may find it too fine a line but even your examples make the distinction. It just gets more confusing here if we interchange terms. It's not about being right or wrong. It's about consistency and understandability in discussions. https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/53496/upconvert

I'm done.

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post #4166 of 9979 Old 11-16-2018, 05:35 AM
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Got the call. My delivery for my 75" 900F is scheduled for Tuesday. Beyond excited. Coming from a 2013 Samsung F8000 which was a great 1080P set at the time but I figured it's time for a 4K upgrade!

Been reading this thread and learning a lot as far as setup, settings, making sure sure cable or satellite STB is set on native or 1080i to let TV do the upscaling (which I had no idea about until reading this thread). Hopefully I don't have any issues. If I do I know I can come here for help.

Had a question as far as what remotes you guys are using. I have a Harmony One remote but I'm wondering if I should just use the included Sony remote for ease of use and making things simpler. I will only have a sound bar, Xbox One X and Apple 4K TV hooked up.

The question is...can you set up the included Sony remote to control your set top box channel and volume with the volume coming out of your sound bar? I currently have my Harmony remote controlling sound from TV coming out of the sound bar and I'd like to do the same with the Sony remote. Also, when using Apple 4K TV does the apple remote control the sound coming out of sound bar if its set up properly or sound coming out of tv?

What remote are you guys using to control everything? Thanks guys and have a great day!
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post #4167 of 9979 Old 11-16-2018, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js950 View Post
'converting' or 'upgrading' is not the same as 'upconverting' or 'upscaling'. You may find it too fine a line but even your examples make the distinction. It just gets more confusing here if we interchange terms. It's not about being right or wrong. It's about consistency and understandability in discussions. https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/53496/upconvert

I'm done.

The original comment that started all this was that "At no point will your tv try to convert any SDR format signal to HDR" that I responded to, and that is exactly what is stated in my original response from the reviewers. That was the context I had intended to remain within. Our discussion went forward from there. And the comment you responded to was an indication that others may use that terminology and it would need to be realigned (as you stated) for continuity. It made sense to me when I typed it, but probably didn't read that way to others.


I have edited that post now to read as intended.
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post #4168 of 9979 Old 11-16-2018, 11:29 AM
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I can get a 65" Samsung Q8FN or the Sony XF90 for about the same price. Not sure what to get. I watch mostly 1080P content in a quite bright living room. Also play on a Xbox One X and PS4 Pro. Which would be the better choice?

Thanks
/Jorgen
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post #4169 of 9979 Old 11-16-2018, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sampleheadz View Post
I can get a 65" Samsung Q8FN or the Sony XF90 for about the same price. Not sure what to get. I watch mostly 1080P content in a quite bright living room. Also play on a Xbox One X and PS4 Pro. Which would be the better choice?

Thanks
/Jorgen
I’m also looking for a new TV but Samsung is not even on the list until ads from home screen are entirely removed.
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post #4170 of 9979 Old 11-16-2018, 11:57 AM
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My X900F is being delivered on Tuesday YAY!


Coming off a LG OLED B6 that's only 1.5 years old and developed serious burn-in. For the record, I will never buy an OLED again. The Best Buy Warranty on the LG gave me enough $$ back to buy the X900F, a 3 year warranty on it, delivery and haul away (of my old beloved Panny Plasma that was in the bedroom and no longer works for more than 20 minutes), with $150 to spare. That Best Buy warranty was worth every single penny and they were very good to me when the LG burn in started to rear it's ugly head.

It was a tough decision between the Q8FN and the X900F, but i have until January to trade up if i don't like the X900F (really hoping I will not have to do that).

I am looking for some advice on a sound bar which will only be used for regular TV watching (directv) and netflix/amazon prime - I do have a 7.1 system (Yammy Receiver, Polk towers, SVS sub and Klispch surrounds and center) that will be connected via the 1 and only optical audio on the Sony.

However, husband hates me having the surround on at night, he retires earlier than I do. I've read alot of reviews and posts that say the speakers on this Sony aren't all that great, the LG had 40w sound and was very good, I'm thinking I am going to need a soundbar with the new set. Looking for something low to mid end in cost, nothing fancy, that will connect in any way to this tv except via optical audio. Any Suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in Advance!!

Last edited by merhow89; 11-16-2018 at 12:32 PM.
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