2018 Sony XBR 900F owners thread (No Price Talk) - Page 289 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8641 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 11:06 AM
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I have an opportunity to pick up a 75 inch x900F this weekend at a really good price. With that being said, I have been reading a lot about the HDMI ports on this set. I have an AppleTV 4k, PS4 Pro and an Xbox One X. From what I understand, this set only has two HDMI 2.0 ports and the other two are low bandwidth. Will I be able to hook up my consoles and AppleTV without issues or will I be limited to the two ports that are 2.0?

Thanks
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post #8642 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by eculley View Post
I have an opportunity to pick up a 75 inch x900F this weekend at a really good price. With that being said, I have been reading a lot about the HDMI ports on this set. I have an AppleTV 4k, PS4 Pro and an Xbox One X. From what I understand, this set only has two HDMI 2.0 ports and the other two are low bandwidth. Will I be able to hook up my consoles and AppleTV without issues or will I be limited to the two ports that are 2.0?

Thanks
I have the exact same components as you (Xbox PS4 & Apple TV) but all hooked up through a receiver then all into ARC support HDMI port 3. They all work great but I am guessing you don't have an AVR in the mix?

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post #8643 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Educated Idiot View Post
I have the exact same components as you (Xbox PS4 & Apple TV) but all hooked up through a receiver then all into ARC support HDMI port 3. They all work great but I am guessing you don't have an AVR in the mix?
I don't. I use a Bose 700 for audio. Guess this TV might not work for my situation. It's a shame they decided to cut back on the HDMI ports.
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post #8644 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 02:08 PM
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I don't. I use a Bose 700 for audio. Guess this TV might not work for my situation. It's a shame they decided to cut back on the HDMI ports.
Give it a bit more time, there are a ton of super helpful people on here that may be able to figure out the best setup for your situation despite the HDMI speed limitations on half the ports.

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post #8645 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 02:35 PM
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Finally my tv decided to update to the new firmware. I don’t notice any change...which is good, no?
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post #8646 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by eculley View Post
I don't. I use a Bose 700 for audio. Guess this TV might not work for my situation. It's a shame they decided to cut back on the HDMI ports.
Your Xbox and PS4 Pro will work fine with ports 1/4 as neither one supports [email protected] 4:4:4 HDR the PS4 Pro drops back to 4:4:2 with HDR. Use the Apple4K TV with port 2 or 4 and you will be fine.

FYI all ports are HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.3 compatible with the only difference being the supported throughput.
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post #8647 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rboe View Post
I am ready to buy a new TV and am debating between the XBR85X850G and the XBR85X900F. I watch content mainly through my Fire box and some OTA and I dont do any gaming. Is the XBR85X900F worth the extra $1000?
On everything you watch you will have a better picture due to FALD.......If you keep your sets a long time I would get the 900F

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Looking for some advice. I'm not trying to discuss price. I'm just giving it for reference, to get accurate advice. A local retailer has an open box 65" X900F for over $300 off the current price. It doesn't have the stand (don't need because it will be mounted), remote (don't need because I have a Harmony), or documentation (can be found online). My big concern is that it was the display unit, so who knows how many hours it has on it. It still has the standard 45-day return policy and 1-year warranty. Should I be concerned about the fact that it was the display unit and the number of hours it has on it? My current TV is a 2012 plasma that has over 14,000 hours on it, but I don't know if that is a bigger concern on new LEDs. Thanks for any advice you all can give.
$300 is not enough, I would just buy new, around $600 off would be more like it.....
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post #8648 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 04:54 PM
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I don't think so, but it is complex answer. eARC does (950G), ARC ??? (900F).
See this thread on the subject.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...-hdmi-arc.html
Why not just use input to your AVR?
It takes few more steps of pressing the correct buttons on the Sony TV remote to switch between the inputs of the receiver and TV.
I don't mind but teaching others like my wife is a problem. My 5th component, Sony DVD player is connected to the AVR and she can't do the input change by herself.

5K MSRP TV should have more than 4 HDMI inputs all compatible with High speed Dolby Vision and be able to pass through Atmos

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post #8649 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by wayneB2 View Post
I don't think so, but it is complex answer. eARC does (950G), ARC ??? (900F).
See this thread on the subject.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-ne...-hdmi-arc.html
Why not just use input to your AVR?
It takes few more steps of pressing the correct buttons on the Sony TV remote to switch between the inputs of the receiver and TV.
I don't mind but teaching others like my wife is a problem. My 5th component, Sony DVD player is connected to the AVR and she can't do the input change by herself.

5K MSRP TV should have more than 4 HDMI inputs all compatible with High speed Dolby Vision and be able to pass through Atmos

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post #8650 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 06:06 PM
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The Firestick will show you the current resolution that the stream is decoding...when you first start playing a video through Amazon or even Netflix, it will start off at SD or HD resolution and slowly increase the bitrate and resolution as the buffer fills, otherwise you would have a glitchy picture for 30 seconds or so as it began. This is the same reason you get a delay when playing video files over a network, as it has to download enough to fill the buffer before playback, and the higher the res/bitrate the longer that buffer filling takes...it's faster throw 30 seconds of low bitrate HD at the TV stream to get things rolling. This is normal for Amazon and Netflix.

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So I got the TV all set up and everything looks fantastic. But I seem to be running into a strange issue with Prime Video. I'm using a Fire Stick and have the resolution set to auto up to 4K. So I go to a couple of 4K shows, Jack Ryan and Hanna, and at first when they came on it showed 2160p on the bottom where it shows the resolution, Same with Hanna, then if I go out and back into the shows it will show 1080p. Then I go back and it will show 2160p again. It just seems to randomly pick a resolution.

I have the input set for the enhanced 4K 60hz. I don't think this is a TV issues. But thought I would ask and see if anyone could have any ideas.

I didn't try this in Netflix because I'm currently not subbed to it.

Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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post #8651 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 07:56 PM
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So I thought Dolby Vision was fixed on this TV. It's so dark you can barely see any details. There's no color, everything just looks gray.

This is very disappointing. I am I doing something wrong? It says my current software is 8.00.

FYI, tested it with Jack Ryan and Ozark, and it was really dark. And I just put on Our Planet and it looks perfectly fine. Beautiful in fact. So not sure what the deal is.

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post #8652 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 08:21 PM
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Dolby Vision is meant to dynamically adjust the TV's brightness to adapt to the high luminance of the video, and low luminance of the TV set. On the X900F with limit of roughly 800nit, it must lower the entire video signal luminance curve so that it retains detail in the highlights. The other thing that affects the brightness is what MaxCLL (max content luminance level) the TV show or movie was graded in. If they grade it at 4000 or 10000 nit master, then DV will really have to darken the picture to keep those highlights in check. If the show, such as the Planet Earth I assume, were graded instead in 1000nit, then the picture would be brighter because the DV isn't pushing everything down to squeeze the highlights into the limited dynamic range of the X900F. Both of these together makes DV look dark on the X900F. The X950G, a 2019 model Sony, has DV bright and DV dark picture mode, one for high nit content, the other for low nit content, because apparently most of their customers have been complaining about dark DV. If they didn't lower the low range of the HDR picture, then the highlights an dHDR "effect" wouldn't be as "extreme" and people would then complain it doesn't look "HDR" enough. The darker the overall picture they give you, the brighter the HDR highlights will appear...get it?

Give the HDR10/DV calibration setting in my signature a try...they specifically lift up the lower range luminance level to spec, so it should be brighter.


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Originally Posted by pvarck31 View Post
So I thought Dolby Vision was fixed on this TV. It's so dark you can barely see any details. There's no color, everything just looks gray.

This is very disappointing. I am I doing something wrong? It says my current software is 8.00.

FYI, tested it with Jack Ryan and Ozark, and it was really dark. And I just put on Our Planet and it looks perfectly fine. Beautiful in fact. So not sure what the deal is.
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Sony X900F SDR and HDR Calibrations https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552
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post #8653 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 08:36 PM
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Dolby Vision is meant to dynamically adjust the TV's brightness to adapt to the high luminance of the video, and low luminance of the TV set. On the X900F with limit of roughly 800nit, it must lower the entire video signal luminance curve so that it retains detail in the highlights. The other thing that affects the brightness is what MaxCLL (max content luminance level) the TV show or movie was graded in. If they grade it at 4000 or 10000 nit master, then DV will really have to darken the picture to keep those highlights in check. If the show, such as the Planet Earth I assume, were graded instead in 1000nit, then the picture would be brighter because the DV isn't pushing everything down to squeeze the highlights into the limited dynamic range of the X900F. Both of these together makes DV look dark on the X900F. The X950G, a 2019 model Sony, has DV bright and DV dark picture mode, one for high nit content, the other for low nit content, because apparently most of their customers have been complaining about dark DV. If they didn't lower the low range of the HDR picture, then the highlights an dHDR "effect" wouldn't be as "extreme" and people would then complain it doesn't look "HDR" enough. The darker the overall picture they give you, the brighter the HDR highlights will appear...get it?

Give the HDR10/DV calibration setting in my signature a try...they specifically lift up the lower range luminance level to spec, so it should be brighter.
I think I get what you mean. So basically a show like Ozark which has dark tone to it in the first place will appear darker so the highlights stick out better, is that correct?

So you say Sony has DV bright and dark, is there a way to choose which one you want to use?

Jack Ryan wasn't too bad. It still looked good. But Ozark was so dark it was barely watchable. Maybe others wouldn't feel that way, but it's just my eyes I guess.

Oh, and I will try your settings here in a bit when I am done with The Flash and let you know.
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post #8654 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 09:01 PM
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I tried your settings and it does look better. A little brighter for sure. Thank you.
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Hi there,
First post on this forum, bear with me =]
So right now i have the LG OLED B7 55inch, image is fantastic but really want the WOW factor of a 75inch, considering the X9000F so i've got a few questions for you owners out there.

1. Is there Dolby Atmos via USB? There is lossy Atmos from HDMI and internal apps, right?
2. Just how much quality do i lose from Atmos TrueHD to Atmos DD+? 4x less?
3. How is the software experience, lots of reviewers complain about lag, delays etc. Is it that bad?
4. Am i missing out anything by not going for the 950G?

Thanks guys.
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post #8656 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by solomon2089 View Post
Hi there,
First post on this forum, bear with me =]
So right now i have the LG OLED B7 55inch, image is fantastic but really want the WOW factor of a 75inch, considering the X9000F so i've got a few questions for you owners out there.

1. Is there Dolby Atmos via USB? There is lossy Atmos from HDMI and internal apps, right?
2. Just how much quality do i lose from Atmos TrueHD to Atmos DD+? 4x less?
3. How is the software experience, lots of reviewers complain about lag, delays etc. Is it that bad?
4. Am i missing out anything by not going for the 950G?

Thanks guys.
ATMOS did not work for me via USB input. The internal apps can output lossy ATMOS (if the specific app supports it...eg VUDU, Netflix)
True HD is 10-20X the bit rate of DD+
Android TV can be slow but gets faster with firmware updates. There are some things you can do to speed up the O/S as well (look it up on HDTVTest video).
The 950G has some advantages, lower input lag for gaming, wider viewing angles at the 75/85 inch screen sizes (but at the expense of black levels).
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post #8657 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 11:23 PM
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ATMOS did not work for me via USB input. The internal apps can output lossy ATMOS (if the specific app supports it...eg VUDU, Netflix)
True HD is 10-20X the bit rate of DD+
Android TV can be slow but gets faster with firmware updates. There are some things you can do to speed up the O/S as well (look it up on HDTVTest video).
The 950G has some advantages, lower input lag for gaming, wider viewing angles at the 75/85 inch screen sizes (but at the expense of black levels).
Hey PlanetAVS, thanks for your reply. Correct me if i'm wrong, i could just get some kinda external device and plug it into a soundbar, and soundbar arc-ing to X9000F and i would get TrueHD right? Lack of eArc doesn't seem that big of a deal since literally no one uses internal speakers anyway?
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post #8658 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 11:34 PM
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Hey PlanetAVS, thanks for your reply. Correct me if i'm wrong, i could just get some kinda external device and plug it into a soundbar, and soundbar arc-ing to X9000F and i would get TrueHD right? Lack of eArc doesn't seem that big of a deal since literally no one uses internal speakers anyway?
Correct, you can get True HD by connecting your source device (UHD player) to an AVR/Soundbar that supports TrueHD. Almost all current AVRs/soundbars support TrueHD. eARC is a nice feature but has limited value right now since there are no video streaming services streaming lossless audio (unless you count Tidal/Qobuz for music streaming). In the long term, eARC will be more useful as streaming becomes more advanced. You'll also need an eARC capable AVR/Soundbar to take advantage of it as well.

The current best practice is to send lossless devices to an AVR, to optimize sound quality.
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post #8659 of 9373 Old 05-21-2019, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by solomon2089 View Post
Hi there,
First post on this forum, bear with me =]
So right now i have the LG OLED B7 55inch, image is fantastic but really want the WOW factor of a 75inch, considering the X9000F so i've got a few questions for you owners out there.

1. Is there Dolby Atmos via USB? There is lossy Atmos from HDMI and internal apps, right?
2. Just how much quality do i lose from Atmos TrueHD to Atmos DD+? 4x less?
3. How is the software experience, lots of reviewers complain about lag, delays etc. Is it that bad?
4. Am i missing out anything by not going for the 950G?

Thanks guys.
I can't answer all your questions about sound, but as far as the software and lag, it's not that bad.

And I see that it was mentioned about input lag being better on the 950G for gaming, that is true, Not sure if you're a gamer, but I am a gamer and the input lag in 4K HDR gaming on the 900F is perfectly acceptable. Even the 1080p input lag of 40ms is fine as well. I play MLB The Show on a PS4 slim so I only use 1080p and the 40ms input lag has no effect on the game for me. And there are a lot of precise button pressing. And that's coming from a TV with less than 20ms input lag. I notice no difference.
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post #8660 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 03:02 AM
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6.6510 is available in France.
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post #8661 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 04:44 AM
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I can't answer all your questions about sound, but as far as the software and lag, it's not that bad.

And I see that it was mentioned about input lag being better on the 950G for gaming, that is true, Not sure if you're a gamer, but I am a gamer and the input lag in 4K HDR gaming on the 900F is perfectly acceptable. Even the 1080p input lag of 40ms is fine as well. I play MLB The Show on a PS4 slim so I only use 1080p and the 40ms input lag has no effect on the game for me. And there are a lot of precise button pressing. And that's coming from a TV with less than 20ms input lag. I notice no difference.

Im using the Tv exclusively for Pc and PS4.With 1080p/120hz resolution for Pc.No problems whatsoever with input lag,and most of the times im not even using the game mode.
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post #8662 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 07:01 AM
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So I thought Dolby Vision was fixed on this TV. It's so dark you can barely see any details. There's no color, everything just looks gray.

This is very disappointing. I am I doing something wrong? It says my current software is 8.00.

FYI, tested it with Jack Ryan and Ozark, and it was really dark. And I just put on Our Planet and it looks perfectly fine. Beautiful in fact. So not sure what the deal is.
***IMHO, all the technical limitations AND explanations AND adjustments regarding Dolby Vision do not make up for the horrible implementation and picture quality of DV by Dolby Laboratories & Sony on the 900F. Flat out, Dolby Vision has been a HUGE disappointment and a worthless technology as far as I'm concerned. HDR is not that far behind. I have zero expectations that Dolby Vision will get any better. But all is not lost.

The Sony 900F has incredible "upscaling" capability that renders 1080i or 1080p content to near Bluray quality. Take a look at an "OTA" broadcast of hockey, if you can. Exceptional color, clarity and detail. So - you can be disappointed with Dolby Vision like a ga-zillion other folks or focus on the incredible picture you can get with Netflix streaming or OTA content with your Sony 900F. It's just the way it is.
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post #8663 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 07:10 AM
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I think I get what you mean. So basically a show like Ozark which has dark tone to it in the first place will appear darker so the highlights stick out better, is that correct?

So you say Sony has DV bright and dark, is there a way to choose which one you want to use?

Jack Ryan wasn't too bad. It still looked good. But Ozark was so dark it was barely watchable. Maybe others wouldn't feel that way, but it's just my eyes I guess.

Oh, and I will try your settings here in a bit when I am done with The Flash and let you know.
Ozark, in fact. is intended to be 'dark'. They use a blue filter with director intent to help with the 'mood' of the show.

Some DV looks great. Others, not so much. And that is often not the TV but the content as created.

I don't believe we will have the light/dark DV option on the 900F. That came with the Z9F and then the 950G unless someone knows something I don't.

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post #8664 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 07:18 AM
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Finally my tv decided to update to the new firmware. I don’t notice any change...which is good, no?
***Ditto for me yesterday. I can't tell any difference and ARC still works, thankfully. Also - if you are having any troubles with the internal apps, I found that "force stopping" them and then re-loading works the best.

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post #8665 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 08:02 AM
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I've been following this thread and as a software engineer I must have tried 31423490x different combinations with my 900F, HT-Z9F, and just recently added a Shield to the party bc unlike my LG OLED, the Shield looks waaaay better than the native apps and is much more of a joy to navigate through and now has support for ATMOS and DV. I have a super solid setup where if I change a few things around i still always show ATMOS and DV when it was if I breathed on it wrong before it would portray LPCM or some other nonsense. I'm drawing up a diagram I'm going to post but if you have a itch to fix prior shoot me a DM : )
Configuration trials included but not limited to 8 diff HDMI cables, 9 different file types (e.g mkv, mp4, ts, etc), executing from internal storage or Plex or USB if the movie was 65 GB, etc. Main thing is to remember to utilize the HDMI ports on your soundbar if you're using a Apple TV, or shield never breaking the HDMI 3 ARC comms.

Oh and I'm sure upgrading to attached network with gigaport on Shield didn't hurt ; )
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post #8666 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Lewis Rivera View Post
I've been following this thread and as a software engineer I must have tried 31423490x different combinations with my 900F, HT-Z9F, and just recently added a Shield to the party bc unlike my LG OLED, the Shield looks waaaay better than the native apps and is much more of a joy to navigate through and now has support for ATMOS and DV. I have a super solid setup where if I change a few things around i still always show ATMOS and DV when it was if I breathed on it wrong before it would portray LPCM or some other nonsense. I'm drawing up a diagram I'm going to post but if you have a itch to fix prior shoot me a DM : )
Configuration trials included but not limited to 8 diff HDMI cables, 9 different file types (e.g mkv, mp4, ts, etc), executing from internal storage or Plex or USB if the movie was 65 GB, etc. Main thing is to remember to utilize the HDMI ports on your soundbar if you're using a Apple TV, or shield never breaking the HDMI 3 ARC comms.

Oh and I'm sure upgrading to attached network with gigaport on Shield didn't hurt ; )
***Interesting observation. I'm surprised that the Shield looks better than the native apps. My only third party streamer is the Roku Ultra but the native apps still provide the most pristine and vivid picture even though the Android interface is a PIA. While I have Gigabit Comcast internet, I do not have an updated modem to take advantage of it and I max out at a puny 300 mbps. Still - Netflix only maxes out at 20 mbps with a hardwire connection.

What's special about the Shield that yields a superior picture to the native apps? I know that there are a lot of Apple 4K fans out there but I thought that had to do with the interface, mostly.

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post #8667 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 08:41 AM
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***IMHO, all the technical limitations AND explanations AND adjustments regarding Dolby Vision do not make up for the horrible implementation and picture quality of DV by Dolby Laboratories & Sony on the 900F. Flat out, Dolby Vision has been a HUGE disappointment and a worthless technology as far as I'm concerned. HDR is not that far behind. I have zero expectations that Dolby Vision will get any better. But all is not lost.

The Sony 900F has incredible "upscaling" capability that renders 1080i or 1080p content to near Bluray quality. Take a look at an "OTA" broadcast of hockey, if you can. Exceptional color, clarity and detail. So - you can be disappointed with Dolby Vision like a ga-zillion other folks or focus on the incredible picture you can get with Netflix streaming or OTA content with your Sony 900F. It's just the way it is.
To be fair, this isn't a issue with the Dolby Vision technology, nor something that Dolby Labs can control. What we have is much like what we had 15 years ago between game software developers and Hardware developers (Nvidia, ATi). The software is years ahead of the hardware needed to fully take advantage of it.

Dolby Vision is developed around a 12bit colour, 10K nit max environment, and TV manufactures are not anywhere close to those specs. We are still limited to 10 bit colour, and just now getting close to 2900 nits. Not until TV manufactures can produce products with 12 bit panels, and become fully entrenched in micro LED production (4K-10K nit) will we see the full potential of Dolby Vision.

What Sony did with Dolby Labs was to help in the development of a Software version of Dolby Vision that could be use in a firmware upgrade to current and future products. Sony did not want to go the route of LG, and Vizio by installing a Dolby Labs provided SOC.

IMO, DV and HDR10 is just a half baked product that can give you an idea of what the tech can achive, but we are just not there yet. Which is why "IMHO" don't use DV or HDR anything as a bases on buying a TV, just buy what is going to give you the best image possible for the content your going to view 90% of the time, which in most cases will not be HDR laced content.



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post #8668 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Lewis Rivera View Post
I've been following this thread and as a software engineer I must have tried 31423490x different combinations with my 900F, HT-Z9F, and just recently added a Shield to the party bc unlike my LG OLED, the Shield looks waaaay better than the native apps and is much more of a joy to navigate through and now has support for ATMOS and DV. I have a super solid setup where if I change a few things around i still always show ATMOS and DV when it was if I breathed on it wrong before it would portray LPCM or some other nonsense. I'm drawing up a diagram I'm going to post but if you have a itch to fix prior shoot me a DM : )
Configuration trials included but not limited to 8 diff HDMI cables, 9 different file types (e.g mkv, mp4, ts, etc), executing from internal storage or Plex or USB if the movie was 65 GB, etc. Main thing is to remember to utilize the HDMI ports on your soundbar if you're using a Apple TV, or shield never breaking the HDMI 3 ARC comms.

Oh and I'm sure upgrading to attached network with gigaport on Shield didn't hurt ; )
Wait....Shield supports Dolby Vision?
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post #8669 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 09:21 AM
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Wait....Shield supports Dolby Vision?

It does not. It does support DTS:X and Atmos ( both pass-through). It has been speculated that it will via software like the 900F.

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post #8670 of 9373 Old 05-22-2019, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Lewis Rivera View Post
I've been following this thread and as a software engineer I must have tried 31423490x different combinations with my 900F, HT-Z9F, and just recently added a Shield to the party bc unlike my LG OLED, the Shield looks waaaay better than the native apps and is much more of a joy to navigate through and now has support for ATMOS and DV. I have a super solid setup where if I change a few things around i still always show ATMOS and DV when it was if I breathed on it wrong before it would portray LPCM or some other nonsense. I'm drawing up a diagram I'm going to post but if you have a itch to fix prior shoot me a DM : )
Configuration trials included but not limited to 8 diff HDMI cables, 9 different file types (e.g mkv, mp4, ts, etc), executing from internal storage or Plex or USB if the movie was 65 GB, etc. Main thing is to remember to utilize the HDMI ports on your soundbar if you're using a Apple TV, or shield never breaking the HDMI 3 ARC comms.

Oh and I'm sure upgrading to attached network with gigaport on Shield didn't hurt ; )
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Originally Posted by Coercion Shaman View Post
It does not. It does support DTS:X and Atmos ( both pass-through). It has been speculated that it will via software like the 900F.
I didn't think so either but my question was directed to @Lewis Rivera , based on his post above (in bold)
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