Sony X900F 65" 4K HDR TV: First Look & Review - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 214 Old 04-21-2018, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Keithian View Post
When i went to the Magnolia a couple of days ago, they had a 930e right above the 900f. The 900e looked miles better. Then I asked her to check what mode they were both in. One was set to retail whatever that means and one was on vivid. As soon as she put both on retail, they looked much more similar. You should go somewhere else and bring content on a usb drive like others do.
Yeah, I think the settings had to be off. It just did not add up. I am going to keep the faith as my 85" 900F is already on order!

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post #62 of 214 Old 04-21-2018, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
When you pump up the backlight, enable dynamic contrast and extreme dynamic range, all those garbage settings, it changes the gamma severely. As the gamma gets brighter in the mids to highlights, you are effectively adding video gain to the picture, which causes the apparent noise. This is why simply lowering the gamma setting on a TV will make it appear less noisy. My X900F is smooth as butter, no noise on HDR apps or SDR Bluray playback.

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post #63 of 214 Old 04-21-2018, 01:58 PM
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Yeah, I think the settings had to be off. It just did not add up. I am going to keep the faith as my 85" 900F is already on order!
And I'll say a prayer for you lol
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post #64 of 214 Old 04-21-2018, 02:33 PM
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And I'll say a prayer for you lol
Unfortunately, the content they show and the default settings on 4K TV's, is meant to create an unreal and overcolorful cartoon appearance to the TV's. People want "better than reality" colors and contrast. The masses willbe much more pleased when pixels are replaced with high intensity laser pixels pointed into their retinas at 50,000nit.

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post #65 of 214 Old 04-21-2018, 02:50 PM
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930e is twice as bright in real life which is impressive for HDR, but the size of the 900f is a killer. 85 inches is hard to compete with and you still get decent HDR, plus better motion.
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post #66 of 214 Old 04-21-2018, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by stratogustav View Post
930e is 'twice' as bright in real life which is impressive for HDR, but the size of the 900f is a killer. 85 inches is hard to compete with and you still get decent HDR, plus better motion.
It didn't seem twice as bright in the store watching 1080p content both on the same mode. It just seemed brighter. Definitely not worth giving up the size difference.
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post #67 of 214 Old 04-21-2018, 04:04 PM
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To be more specific if the 900F is a 5 in brightness the 930e is a 15. However I would get the 900F any day over the 930e just for the cheer 85 inches size and the X1 Extreme chip for motion. Plus like I said the HDR on the 900F is not bad at all. 930e HDR is better, but that alone does not win me over. The 85 inches size wins me over.
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post #68 of 214 Old 04-21-2018, 04:07 PM
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I'm watching "Passengers" right now in 4k HDR and this wasn't even great HDR but it looks amazing on the 900E. I mean Jesus it looks incredible. I had to tweak some settings in HDR mode to get it to my personal liking but it's just amazing now.

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post #69 of 214 Old 04-21-2018, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by audeophyle View Post
Yeah, I think the settings had to be off. It just did not add up. I am going to keep the faith as my 85" 900F is already on order!
Just a correction to my post you quoted as it was a typo. I meant the 930e, not 900e...though I think you folks knew that :-)
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post #70 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Keithian View Post
It didn't seem twice as bright in the store watching 1080p content both on the same mode. It just seemed brighter. Definitely not worth giving up the size difference.
The XE93 is about 50% brighter than the XF90, not twice

XF90 SDR Real Scene Brightness 630 cd/m2
XE93 SDR Real Scene Brightness 837 cd/m2


XF90 HDR Real Scene Brightness 894 cd/m2
XE93 HDR Real Scene Brightness 1442 cd/m2


XE93 is the better TV by far imo
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post #71 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Shaoran View Post
The XE93 is about 50% brighter than the XF90, not twice

XF90 SDR Real Scene Brightness 630 cd/m2
XE93 SDR Real Scene Brightness 837 cd/m2


XF90 HDR Real Scene Brightness 894 cd/m2
XE93 HDR Real Scene Brightness 1442 cd/m2


XE93 is the better TV by far imo
But it's still edge-lit. It's gonna have issues. I don't know why anything mid to high range is anything but full-array.

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post #72 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Shaoran View Post
The XE93 is about 50% brighter than the XF90, not twice

XF90 SDR Real Scene Brightness 630 cd/m2
XE93 SDR Real Scene Brightness 837 cd/m2


XF90 HDR Real Scene Brightness 894 cd/m2
XE93 HDR Real Scene Brightness 1442 cd/m2


XE93 is the better TV by far imo
Your entitled to your opinion, but there is no 85" 930e and its an edgelit, not FALD. Also, you proved my point that watching 1080p content was not twice as bright which is in line with what I noticed in the store.
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post #73 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Your entitled to your opinion, but there is no 85" 930e and its an edgelit, not FALD. Also, you proved my point that watching 1080p content was not twice as bright which is in line with what I noticed in the store.
It's way brighter than needed for SDR and the peak HDR of 900 nits is close to 1000 nits, so it's gonna be nitpicking in that specific sense (vs. 1400 peak) with most HDR scenes since it's very rare for content to go over 1000 nits (and usually it's for very brief, specific things). As long as the processing is up to snuff, which for the X900F it now is, you can do a lot with a modest number of FALD zones, this much is clear.

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post #74 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 08:48 AM
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Unfortunately, the content they show and the default settings on 4K TV's, is meant to create an unreal and overcolorful cartoon appearance to the TV's. People want "better than reality" colors and contrast.
Paul
Well those who want reference quality know better
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post #75 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 06:32 PM
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What about noise or graininess on normal 720p or 1080i signals?
I have pretty highly compressed Cox cable, but this TV handles it pretty good. The Reality Creation upscaling does a great job of sharpening without weird artifacts. Here is a broadcast 1080i screen shot (CBS: Bull) playing on Windows Media Center calibrated to BT1886 100cd/m. As you can see, not much visible noise, and I am not running any form of noise reduction in the TV settings.
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post #76 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
I have pretty highly compressed Cox cable, but this TV handles it pretty good. The Reality Creation upscaling does a great job of sharpening without weird artifacts. Here is a broadcast 1080i screen shot (CBS: Bull) playing on Windows Media Center calibrated to BT1886 100cd/m. As you can see, not much visible noise, and I am not running any form of noise reduction in the TV settings.
Thank you. It's hard to judge a still shot from content that is moving, but it's good to hear your impressions. It's just odd that one person will describe what you describe and another with Directtv will state how grainy it looks. I guess the only way to know is give it a shot, but I'm being patient until I hear if the Z9f will offer an 80+ option. If they don't, by then the price will go down a bit on this set and the q9, I'll try this one first due to the size, if I hate the picture I'll get an inadequate 75"q9 and next year when the new sets come out if there is a better 85+ set I'll move the q9 to the bedroom. That's my plan for now unless I get impatient
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post #77 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 09:26 PM
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That is actually a paused frame...but it is indicative of the lack of grain possible with a typical 1080i picture. On my Cox, non local channels are a bit grainier, most likely because they run through various hubs on their way to the Cox distro center for my area.

Paul
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post #78 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 10:51 PM
 
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But it's still edge-lit. It's gonna have issues. I don't know why anything mid to high range is anything but full-array.

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what issues, it's already proven the x930e has better backlight control and lesser blooming than the 900f. dont go blindly by the edge lit and fald monikers. the 930e isnt your conventional side edge lit lcd that manufacturers put out, sony has done something unique with the slim backlight drive plus on the 930e.

the 930e is not 2x better (or 2x brighter) than 900f but still a better tv.

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post #79 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 11:26 PM
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what issues, it's already proven the x930e has better backlight control and lesser blooming than the 900f. dont go blindly by the edge lit and fald monikers. the 930e isnt your conventional side edge lit lcd that manufacturers put out, sony has done something unique with the slim backlight drive plus on the 930e.

the 930e is not 2x better (or 2x brighter) than 900f but still a better tv.
But it isn't 85", so better depends on what you are looking for
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But it isn't 85", so better depends on what you are looking for
problem is as the screen gets bigger, it warrants more number of dimming zones for good backlight control all across the screen, the 900f 85" inch model still has less than 100 zones and imo that is too little for a 85" screen, you may find blooming a bit exaggerated sometimes as a result because of such a large screen and not a lot dimming zones. Of course it also depends how much resistant you are to blooming. in any case, a bias light would be recommended, whether you are using the x900f or even the 930e. the 930e too without a bias light on can sometimes have noticeable blooming. overall, i just think the 930e has a little more punchier blacks and better backlight control, and its hdr peaks are noticeably brighter too. if you are in for a 55 or 65 tv, the 930e is being sold by some retailers a little cheaper than the x900f, so it would be a better buy, if screen size is your primary consideration, the x900f is still a solid tv. i personally dont go for screen sizes on tv's as i also have a projector (cast to a 105" matte screen), i use a projector and lcd tv in the same room.
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post #81 of 214 Old 04-22-2018, 11:48 PM
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problem is as the screen gets bigger, it warrants more number of dimming zones for good backlight control all across the screen, the 900f 85" inch model still has less than 100 zones and imo that is too little for a 85" screen, you may find blooming a bit exaggerated sometimes as a result because of such a large screen and not a lot dimming zones. Of course it also depends how much resistant you are to blooming. in any case, a bias light would be recommended, whether you are using the x900f or even the 930e. the 930e too without a bias light on can sometimes have noticeable blooming. overall, i just think the 930e has a little more punchier blacks and better backlight control, and its hdr peaks are noticeably brighter too. if you are in for a 55 or 65 tv, the 930e is being sold by some retailers a little cheaper than the x900f, so it would be a better buy, if screen size is your primary consideration, the x900f is still a solid tv. i personally dont go for screen sizes on tv's as i also have a projector (cast to a 105" matte screen), i use a projector and lcd tv in the same room.
I agree about the zones. Such a shame it doesn't have more. I would have paid for more
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post #82 of 214 Old 04-23-2018, 12:10 AM
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I have a 135 inches projector screen, but it is only 1080p and it has no HDR, so I would still buy the 85 inches TV. Plus being able to have the lights on when people come over while still having a nice size screen is an incredible proposition very hard to resist. The World Cup is coming and you want to have beer and windows open for that. Not many want to watch a game in the dark.
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post #83 of 214 Old 04-23-2018, 02:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree about the zones. Such a shame it doesn't have more. I would have paid for more
Not sure why people are hung up on this a few more zones won't make an appreciable difference and a 75" TV is not really all that much larger than a 65". I can see wanting more zones to justify the cost, but on the flip side having a consistent zone count across sizes means the TVs will perform the same, using the same algorithm.

To appreciably reduce blooming, you need to increase zones count by a sizeable amount, IMO... Like by 50%.

I suspect that's why Q9S makes the leap to 10,000 zones.

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post #84 of 214 Old 04-23-2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Not sure why people are hung up on this a few more zones won't make an appreciable difference and a 75" TV is not really all that much larger than a 65". I can see wanting more zones to justify the cost, but on the flip side having a consistent zone count across sizes means the TVs will perform the same, using the same algorithm.

To appreciably reduce blooming, you need to increase zones count by a sizeable amount, IMO... Like by 50%.

I suspect that's why Q9S makes the leap to 10,000 zones.
Well you used the word 'modest' in describing the zone count which I read as the TV would be better which I would pay for if it had zone counts in the range of the Q9 Or the Z9. Are you stating that would be a negligible difference when watching content?
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Well you used the word 'modest' in describing the zone count which I read as the TV would be better which I would pay for if it had zone counts in the range of the Q9 Or the Z9. Are you stating that would be a negligible difference when watching content?
I would've only argue that it is content dependent. SDR, all that really matters is that the letterbox bars get dark for movies. HDR, more zones does get you higher brightness peaking and better local contrast but is only one factor because with VA panels viewing angle and native contrast also matter, and with all TVs color volume plus anti-reflective qualities come into play when considering total picture quality under various uses scenarios.

For some content the difference would be quite significant, for other content it would indeed be negligible or... in the case of SDR HD Blu-ray and broadcast TV and much streaming content, it may be close to nonexistent.

Asusual, the operative term is "it depends."

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post #86 of 214 Old 04-23-2018, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Keithian View Post
Well you used the word 'modest' in describing the zone count which I read as the TV would be better which I would pay for if it had zone counts in the range of the Q9 Or the Z9. Are you stating that would be a negligible difference when watching content?
I would've only argue that it is content dependent. SDR, all that really matters is that the letterbox bars get dark for movies. HDR, more zones does get you higher brightness peaking and better local contrast but is only one factor because with VA panels viewing angle and native contrast also matter, and with all TVs color volume plus anti-reflective qualities come into play when considering total picture quality under various uses scenarios.

Sfor some content the difference would be quite significant, for other content it would indeed be negligible or... in the case of SDR HD Blu-ray and broadcast TV and much streaming content, it may be close to nonexistent.

Asusual, the operative term is "it depends."
Imagic- I look forward to your review! Do you think the added size of the 85” 900f would outweight the PQ and performance of the 75” Z9?

I am back and forth on which set to purchase. I know I am asking for your subjective opinion, but it would be helpful as you appear to be an expert on these forums.

Thanks!
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post #87 of 214 Old 04-23-2018, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I would've only argue that it is content dependent. SDR, all that really matters is that the letterbox bars get dark for movies. HDR, more zones does get you higher brightness peaking and better local contrast but is only one factor because with VA panels viewing angle and native contrast also matter, and with all TVs color volume plus anti-reflective qualities come into play when considering total picture quality under various uses scenarios.

Sfor some content the difference would be quite significant, for other content it would indeed be negligible or... in the case of SDR HD Blu-ray and broadcast TV and much streaming content, it may be close to nonexistent.

Asusual, the operative term is "it depends."
Thank you, that's helpful.
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post #88 of 214 Old 04-23-2018, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by rene2kx View Post
what issues, it's already proven the x930e has better backlight control and lesser blooming than the 900f. dont go blindly by the edge lit and fald monikers. the 930e isnt your conventional side edge lit lcd that manufacturers put out, sony has done something unique with the slim backlight drive plus on the 930e.

the 930e is not 2x better (or 2x brighter) than 900f but still a better tv.
The 930E is certainly a great TV and i was torn between the two. But i went with the 900F because the better motion handling and gaming was more important to me then blooming.
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post #89 of 214 Old 04-23-2018, 12:39 PM
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Having more zones doesn't mean better PQ, if the TV is dumb it won't know how to administrate the zones it has. I would say less zones and more intelligence is better than hundreds of zones and having no idea what to do with them.
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post #90 of 214 Old 04-23-2018, 12:41 PM
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Having more zones doesn't mean better PQ, if the TV is dumb it won't know how to administrate the zones it has. I would say less zones and more intelligence is better than hundreds of zones and having no idea what to do with them.
That is 100% correct. It's something people continue to get wrong.

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