Can you pick out the best and the worst upscaling? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Question Can you pick out the best and the worst upscaling?

Simple test. Can you pick out the best and the worst upscaling? Let's see if you can determine how these TVs were rated for upscaling. Just list the numbers next to each picture in order from best to worst for upscaling.

1.


2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.


8.


9.


10.


11.


12.


13.
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post #2 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 07:32 AM
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post #3 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 07:55 AM
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Any of them that don't show the stair stepping and lost details are of the "better".


However, it would be best to have the original raw image in there as well (cropped the same)... without having the original/raw image you can't know what details were dropped/smeared/altered... right? This is kind a crap comparison without it IMO.
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post #4 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by js950 View Post
Here is an even simpler example. Which one of these looks soft too you? Which one has more artifacts? Which one do you prefer?

8.



13.



12.

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post #5 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Any of them that don't show the stair stepping and lost details are of the "better".


However, it would be best to have the original raw image in there as well (cropped the same)... without having the original/raw image you can't know what details were dropped/smeared/altered... right? This is kind a crap comparison without it IMO.
That is a direct 1:1 crop of the native image. Nothing is changed. This is a valid comparison.

So do you prefer the haloing of some images over the stair step? Both are scaling artifacts.

There is also the issue that 480p is underdefined. 720x480 is technically DVD's 480p. However, that isn't 16:9 so there has to be some scaling from the source no matter what. 853.3x480 is the theoretical 16:9 480p but that is an impossible resolution. Therefore, 854x480 is often used instead.

The performance of the display could depend on whether it is fed 854x480 or 720x480. Some TVs might scale one resolution better than others. Ultimately, all variants should be tested under the same conditions.
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post #6 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
That is a direct 1:1 crop of the native image. Nothing is changed. This is a valid comparison.

So do you prefer the haloing of some images over the stair step? Both are scaling artifacts.

There is also the issue that 480p is underdefined. 720x480 is technically DVD's 480p. However, that isn't 16:9 so there has to be some scaling from the source no matter what. 853.3x480 is the theoretical 16:9 480p but that is an impossible resolution. Therefore, 854x480 is often used instead.

The performance of the display could depend on whether it is fed 854x480 or 720x480. Some TVs might scale one resolution better than others. Ultimately, all variants should be tested under the same conditions.
Which is 1:1 crop of the native?

Um, no my point is it would be best to see the native image to compare. Displaying it on the screen it's not in it's native anymore. i.e. Provide a image/frame raw from the video source not a screenshot of it. There is no master here...

I'm not sure which I prefer; I haven't seen what the original/master looks like... is kinda what I'm trying to convey.

As well I can't put them side by side and have to use my memory to cross compare them all... PIA
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post #7 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Simple test. Can you pick out the best and the worst upscaling? Let's see if you can determine how these TVs were rated for upscaling. Just list the numbers next to each picture in order from best to worst for upscaling.

I was going to say that 3, 5 and 9 look best to me, but I will give the ordering a shot.

Best to worst

3
5
9
11
12
7
10
13
8
1
2
6
4
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Here is an even simpler example. Which one of these looks soft too you? Which one has more artifacts? Which one do you prefer?

8.


13. Looks soft.


12. Has more artifacts.


I prefer 8 or 13.
Thanks for the fun game!
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post #8 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazle View Post
Thanks for the fun game!
Thank you for the responses. I will post what displays the pictures are from once a few more people make their assessments.
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post #9 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
Which is 1:1 crop of the native?

Um, no my point is it would be best to see the native image to compare. Displaying it on the screen it's not in it's native anymore. i.e. Provide a image/frame raw from the video source not a screenshot of it. There is no master here...

I'm not sure which I prefer; I haven't seen what the original/master looks like... is kinda what I'm trying to convey.

As well I can't put them side by side and have to use my memory to cross compare them all... PIA
The point of the test is to examine the differences between the displays all showing the same source with equivalent settings. The images are pictures of the screens for each display with the same source.

I have cropped the image down so that it can be seen on this page but the images are not altered from how the original source images looked. They are just cropped to illustrate the differences between the displays. At normal sitting distances the differences would be extremely hard to differentiate. However, magnified like this the differences become much more apparent.

Try to put them in groups. It doesn’t really matter which one is 7th or 8th. It matters more which ones you think are in the top 3rd, middle 3rd, and bottom 3rd. Just go down the list and say I like these 3 or four the best, then these 3 or 4 next, and the others get the last few places.
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post #10 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
The point of the test is to examine the differences between the displays all showing the same source with equivalent settings. The images are pictures of the screens for each display with the same source.

I have cropped the image down so that it can be seen on this page but the images are not altered from how the original source images looked. They are just cropped to illustrate the differences between the displays. At normal sitting distances the differences would be extremely hard to differentiate. However, magnified like this the differences become much more apparent.

Try to put them in groups. It doesn’t really matter which one is 7th or 8th. It matters more which ones you think are in the top 3rd, middle 3rd, and bottom 3rd. Just go down the list and say I like these 3 or four the best, then these 3 or 4 next, and the others get the last few places.
yes, it's obvious to me what the point of this is... and you can cross compare although it's a PIA. And I have.

However, You still don't get what I was saying, you haven't provided the original image/source in raw format to compare. So we could see what the image was before the TV displayed it... you could provide a JPG/PNG from the orignal source material cropped to the same section.


I certainly have images which I prefer out of the bunch, but to make an actual decision of which is *best*. Meaning which is doing the better job I'd need to compare to the original frame being displayed on my monitor...


At this point ,maybe #5 . Hard to say I can't get all of them on the screen at once... even when zoomed out.

#11 (from original post) looks like it's from a TCL panel.

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-21-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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post #11 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 10:56 AM
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I'm sorry about the rolled eyes but I have a hard time knowing which of those would look best at a proper seating position without some previous experience at this. I suspect a softer image at that distance may look better though not so at a distance.
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post #12 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
yes, it's obvious to me what the point of this is... and you can cross compare although it's a PIA. And I have.

However, You still don't get what I was saying, you haven't provided the original image/source in raw format to compare. So we could see what the image was before the TV displayed it... you could provide a JPG/PNG from the orignal source material cropped to the same section.


I certainly have images which I prefer out of the bunch, but to make an actual decision of which is *best*. Meaning which is doing the better job I'd need to compare to the original frame being displayed on my monitor...


At this point ,maybe #5 . Hard to say I can't get all of them on the screen at once... even when zoomed out.

#11 (from original post) looks like it's from a TCL panel.
These are crops of the RTINGS test images. I believe they post all of their test materials but I can't find the link right now. Maybe they took that link down?
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post #13 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
#11 (from original post) looks like it's from a TCL panel.
Yes that is accurate.
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post #14 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
At this point ,maybe #5 .
I suspect you will be surprised what #5 is from.
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post #15 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 12:24 PM
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#2 looks good to me but like I said it mat be different at a distance.
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post #16 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
I suspect you will be surprised what #5 is from.
probably so!

#3 is quite good too comparing only the up-scaling. However the sub-pixel structure is remarkably different than the others. Makes me think it's 1:1 or a 1080p panel but hard to say without the original source to compare with.
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post #17 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post
probably so!

#3 is quite good too comparing only the up-scaling. However the sub-pixel structure is remarkably different than the others. Makes me think it's 1:1 or a 1080p panel but hard to say without the original source to compare with.
Again, another accurate assessment. That one is a 1080p display. It is interesting that 1080p displays typically can display 480p better than 4k displays can.
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post #18 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 01:26 PM
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It's all a blur to me :P

Good idea for this little test!
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post #19 of 22 Old 06-21-2018, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Again, another accurate assessment. That one is a 1080p display. It is interesting that 1080p displays typically can display 480p better than 4k displays can.
I was self studying sub-pixel structures 2 years ago for some MVA LCD and OLED panels. So I can recognize some of the patterns right away; the TCL stood out because I was just looking at it last week. Not a fan of their 8 bit panel implementation /w FRC; I wish they would make a native 10bit panel like Vizio P
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post #20 of 22 Old 06-25-2018, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a list of the displays used for each of the pictures.

1st post(13 displays)

1. Sony AE1 OLED
2. LG C8 OLED
3. Vizio 2017 D-Series-1080p
4. Vizio 2017 E-Series
5. Hisense H8C
6. Vizio 2016 P-series
7. Vizio 2017 P-series
8. Vizio 2018 P-series
9. Samsung Q8FN
10. Samsung Q9FN
11. TCL r617
12. Sony x900f
13. Sony x940e

2nd post(3 displays)
8. Vizio 2017 P-series
13. TCL r617
12. Samsung Q9FN
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post #21 of 22 Old 06-25-2018, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpgxsvcd View Post
Again, another accurate assessment. That one is a 1080p display. It is interesting that 1080p displays typically can display 480p better than 4k displays can.
There is always better upscaling with lower resolution displays. There's less data that needs to be made up from "480 to 1080" than "480 to 4k".

The best upscaling TVs 480 content, from best to worst would be: 480, 720, 1080, 4k.

A 480 CRT will display the 480 content with the least amount of artifacts, due to no upscaling. The 2nd best would be the 720 display, due to the least amount of upscaling.
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post #22 of 22 Old 06-26-2018, 05:44 AM
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I had picked the C8. I find it interesting that the 900f, which I also liked, looks better to me than the 940e when it supposedly has the same processor. One reason I liked the C8 was that it didn't have as much darkening around the white ropes which some displays use as a contrast enhancer and that it looked smooth without being soft. Not as punchy as the ae1 but less etched as well. At a distance, who knows? If someone told me that those ropes had obvious winding that should be noticeably visible, I may have gone with 1 or 12. Looks like LGs new processing is paying off. I think 8 looks pretty good as far as pixel res and that display was noted for looking soft at this res. It does seem like it's contrast should be better so maybe that's the noticeable characteristic. (hunches shoulders)

Judging from responses here including mine which may be luck or wrong, LOL, it's a crap shoot at this level of magnification unless you know to look for and how it pertains to normal viewing distances.
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Last edited by js950; 06-26-2018 at 07:51 AM.
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