Samsung Unveils Q900R 8K QLED at IFA 2018 - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 209 Old 09-01-2018, 09:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm not making an argument for 8K, I'm just saying it's coming and it does not upset me.

My personal reason to want 8K is digital photography, not movie watching. I do not think home theater projection and typical associated screen sizes relative to viewing distance need 8K.
With AI upscaling of 4K and 1080p content, I think the chicken vs egg question for 8K displays vs content has been answered, and that answer is: the chicken came first.

In other words, AI upscaling is what makes these TVs actually better / sharper than 4K, and an immediate benefit which is always there, assuming you sit close enough to the TV to see any difference and have good eyesight.

For both console and PC gamers I can see it being useful to have 8K with such upscaling. Many 4K monitors exist now at 27 inches so I don't see why 65-85 inch TVs at 8K wouldn't deliver more bang. As a PC dev and programmer, I am very excited by 8K just for the screen real estate along but only once the prices come down. A lot.

Another thing to mention is, when fed with typical FHD or UHD 4:2:0 content, the chroma channels will also need to be upscaled, and I bet any money they do that using AI for that too. I mean, why wouldn't they, it's the majority of the content out there, it would make no sense for it to only work with 4:4:4 or RGB inputs.

So people complaining about chroma subsampling reducing potential fidelity all the time need to rejoice!

Also, a couple comments about HDMI 2.1 support here. While 8K30 probably means they are still using HDMI 2.0's 18 gbps (or maybe 20 gbps) chips, they possible have DSC compression, which is a factor of 3x improvement in bandwidth.

If so, that means these TVs could do 4K120hz HDR10+ in 4:4:4.

And possibly with variable refresh rates, although I haven't seen that reported in the media. If they manage to maintain 15ms input lag while upscaling 4K120 (in 4:4:4) to 8K120 (in 4:4:4), then that's going to deliver a massive bang for the buck upgrade in terms of both spatial and temporal resolution.

I hope they do in fact support 8K30 in full chroma over HDMI 2.1 input, in 4:4:4 and 10-bit, given DSC's factor of 3 pixel clock boost which is more than enough to deliver 10-bit 4:4:4 even with 18 gbps inputs. It's not necesserily the case, though. Some high end DisplayPort 1.4 G-Sync monitors require you to drop to 4:2:2 when above 98hz because they didn't implement DSC yet. Bummer.

If they deliver Freesync 2 as well, this TV will be a godsend to gamers, at least Xbox One and PC users with an AMD graphics card. Also, apparently there's a hack to get Freesync out of an AMD GPU while using an NVidia card to render the game, so you get both high FPS and Freesync over HDMI to your new TV. Let's hope it does do Freesync, then! And allow 4K30 to 4K120hz VRR range, with HDR10+ too.

Also, 8K30 in 4:4:4 means 8K60 in 4:2:0 is also theoretically possible. If 8K30 is only at 4:2:0, which is also possible if DSC isn't supported over the HDMI 2.1 connection (which would be a major disappointment), that nevertheless means 8K24 at 10-bit is possible at 4:2:0 over 18 gbps. Which I'd consider the bare minimum to even call these TVs 8K-compatible, really.

Some numbers:

4K60 in 8-bit in 4:4:4 is the max HDMI 2.0a can muster.

4K48 is similarly the max at 10-bit in 4:4:4, because 48 / 60 is the same ratio as 8 / 10 (8-bit vs 10-bit colour). So you can trade six of one for a half dozen of the other, so to speak.

This means you can do 4K96 in 10-bit in 4:2:0 over HDMI 2.0a without DSC, which is the same exact bandwidth as 8K24 (four times more pixels per frame but 1/4 of the refresh rate), in 10-bit 4:2:0.

I would still prefer waiting for full 48 gbps HDMI 2.1 + DSC which will allow 8K120 in HDR10+ in 4:2:0, or 4K144 in HDR10+ in 4:4:4, then upscale it using the fancy upscaler, which is the most viable option for gamers, in the short to medium term.

The amazing colour volume that 4000 nits delivers, as you rightly said, means less aggressive tone mapping so highlights needn't be crushed to elevate the APL enough to be watchable with the lights on.

I'm much more concerned with 4K max input refresh rate, so I hope it supports 120hz, even if it is only in 4:2:0.

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post #122 of 209 Old 09-01-2018, 09:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
I don't think it would be for me. Mainly because I just can't afford to spend 15K on a TV. If money was no object...then maybe. The only way I feel it would be worth that price is if it truly does have 4000 nits when calibrated. Has a significant amount of dimming zones, truly does have a compatible HDMI 2.1 port or will at least be updated via firmware for that. Add to that VRR/8K and maybe some of the best upscaling on the market then it might be worth it.
I think it's silly to even try to render games natively at 8K, when the way big engines like Unreal already achieve rendering efficiently for 4K is by using temporal AI upscaling.

It makes sense to offload some of this processing into the TV to bring it from 4K to 8K, especially when the input lag is only 15ms. Basically load-balancing the effort.

I'd much rather have a higher framerate at 4K (with VRR of course) in 4:4:4 and HDR10+, which the TV then upscales to 8K quite nicely, according to first-hand reports from people who've seen the TVs.

This whole "8K is nonsense" movement is absurd, at least to PC gamers or console gamers, who will be able to see a difference at 75 inches when sitting 3 feet away. No, 8K doesn't matter for those who sit 10-12 feet away, so those people shouldn't buy it. Simple. Let enthusiasts lead and be the early adopters.

The "no content" argument is completely moot with AI upscaling tech which works wonders.
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post #123 of 209 Old 09-01-2018, 09:55 AM
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3 feet away from a 75" screen OK

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post #124 of 209 Old 09-01-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Latinoheat View Post
3 feet away from a 75" screen [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG] OK
Exactly. At a certain point, apart from the absurdity of the physical viewing distance itself, it becomes impossible to place speakers so as to maintain a solid sound field, due to the fixed viewing angle regardless of screen size.

Just another reason to be annoyed with the silly cart-before-the-horsery of 8k in 2018.
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post #125 of 209 Old 09-01-2018, 10:57 AM
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I am a PC gamer and console gamer and I would never sit 3 feet from a 75" screen in any game




I think 8K may have some merit but only at 85" and up


I dont see any point for 8K at 65"-75" .. at least not until there is plenty of 8K content (with 8K content I would assume there may be a merit of having it on an 8K native screen rather than downscaling on a 4K screen, even on smaller sizes .. but tbh even then Im not sure the eye will be able to tell the difference at sub-85" sizes)
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post #126 of 209 Old 09-01-2018, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
I don't think it would be for me. Mainly because I just can't afford to spend 15K on a TV. If money was no object...then maybe. The only way I feel it would be worth that price is if it truly does have 4000 nits when calibrated. Has a significant amount of dimming zones, truly does have a compatible HDMI 2.1 port or will at least be updated via firmware for that. Add to that VRR/8K and maybe some of the best upscaling on the market then it might be worth it.
I can, and have in the past (Sony Qualia). And I'll do so again, but this is my upper limit. At 5 years life, this is $3K/year and that's a reasonable entertainment budget for me. I'll give this one a little time, though, to see what's coming for a 110" screenwall or micro LED. When I got my current 79" 4K Sony, almost everything was upscaled 2K, but it was an improvement I could see over the 60" 1080p set it replaced. I expect this "8K" set will be the same. I do a lot of daytime viewing, so OLED and another reflective Sony screen is not for me. Samsung seems to have nailed the anti-reflective coating, compared to other mfgs, so that's where I'm looking. Neither my 79" Sony, or my front projector, can do HDR. I'm expecting a 4000 nit HDR display will make an enormous difference, whether 4K or 8K and I can completely forget about worrying if my Oppo 204 will ever get the tone mapping fixed, or if it will get HDR 10+ (It does get DV). So, I am glad that this set will be available, soon.

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post #127 of 209 Old 09-01-2018, 11:53 AM
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I will admit I'm honestly tempted to go for the 82 inch here in the UK providing we are getting the 82. Just because both the 82 and 85 are supposed to be 4000 nits where as the 75 and 65 are only 3000. That's a pretty big difference and also the fact the larger sizes wont need to tonemap and your going to get probably the best HDR experience on the market which for me is worth it. It just depends at what price the 82 inch comes at compared to the 75.
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post #128 of 209 Old 09-01-2018, 01:32 PM
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8K TV without a HDMI 2.1 48 Gbps port is like a car without gasoline. Worthless.
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post #129 of 209 Old 09-02-2018, 08:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
I'm not sure whats going on here...Why am I imagining you with a placard outside of Samsungs headquarters chained to there front gate

Also the Q9FN has ALLM and VRR so I'm not sure what your talking about?
Where do you see that Samsung promised ALLM and VRR?

Samsung said in the exhibition the screen will have a maximum of 15MS, it is not really ALLM
the 15Ms LIKE in Q9FN 65" with HDMI 2.0

It smells
Samsung can not sell the Q9FN so it launders the same product
Under the new model with the joke of HDMI 2.1
( Which works as HDMI 2.0 It does not look good to Samsung )
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post #130 of 209 Old 09-02-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by popyang45 View Post
Where do you see that Samsung promised ALLM and VRR?

Samsung said in the exhibition the screen will have a maximum of 15MS, it is not really ALLM
the 15Ms LIKE in Q9FN 65" with HDMI 2.0

It smells
Samsung can not sell the Q9FN so it launders the same product
Under the new model with the joke of HDMI 2.1
( Which works as HDMI 2.0 It does not look good to Samsung )

ALLM and VRR is not an unreasonable assumption for the Q900R. Every Samsung model from the 8 Series up already has these capabilities.

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post #131 of 209 Old 09-02-2018, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by popyang45 View Post
Where do you see that Samsung promised ALLM and VRR?

Samsung said in the exhibition the screen will have a maximum of 15MS, it is not really ALLM
the 15Ms LIKE in Q9FN 65" with HDMI 2.0

It smells
Samsung can not sell the Q9FN so it launders the same product
Under the new model with the joke of HDMI 2.1
( Which works as HDMI 2.0 It does not look good to Samsung )
The Q9FN has both ALLM and VRR..so of course these sets will have that also.
We also don't know exactly what the supposed 2.1 HDMI port is like yet.. if its upgradable by firmware ect.

Also as stated the Q900R is nothing like the Q9FN..Different panel, differen't processor...Different brightness capability, different upscaling quality. The only thing that might be similar is the Zone count but we no nothing about that yet.

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post #132 of 209 Old 09-02-2018, 09:51 AM
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For ''full'' ''real'' HDMI 2.1 or whatever they are going to call it you need new hardware. Other than that if a product implements some of the features of HDMI 2.1, it can be sold as a HDMI 2.1 compatible product. However, the manufacturer must specify which features of HDMI 2.1 are supported.
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1516615699
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post #133 of 209 Old 09-02-2018, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
The Q9FN has both ALLM and VRR..so of course these sets will have that also.
We also don't know exactly what the supposed 2.1 HDMI port is like yet.. if its upgradable by firmware ect.

Also as stated the Q900R is nothing like the Q9FN..Different panel, differen't processor...Different brightness capability, different upscaling quality. The only thing that might be similar is the Zone count but we no nothing about that yet.

Q9FN has both ALLM and VRR..


THIS LOOK BAD ALLM and VRR ?
Part of HDMI 2.1 protocol
Samsung acts like a company that does not accept the rules and tries to manipulate the protocols

Samsung has also promised to update the Q9FN screen to eARC
Also ensures ALLM and VRR ... ???

It looks bad, not serious, there is no bandwidth for all this nonsense! in HDMI 2.0
All this if imported will come at the expense of other things !
If it comes, it will be not partial and very problematic

Samsung is losing to OLED and all the rules in Samsung's reliability Disappear
They act like IN shock !
Like a wounded animal without restraint!
And it looked bad

Samsung has not changed much, on the screen Q9FN LIKE Q900
added a processor to the motherboard for UPSCALE no one is enthusiastic about this
Gave the possibility of 4000NITS

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post #134 of 209 Old 09-02-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by popyang45 View Post
Q9FN has both ALLM and VRR..


THIS LOOK BAD ALLM and VRR ?
Part of HDMI 2.1 protocol
Samsung acts like a company that does not accept the rules and tries to manipulate the protocols

Samsung has also promised to update the Q9FN screen to eARC
Also ensures ALLM and VRR ... ???

It looks bad, not serious, there is no bandwidth for all this nonsense! in HDMI 2.0
All this if imported will come at the expense of other things !
If it comes, it will be not partial and very problematic

Samsung is losing to OLED and all the rules in Samsung's reliability Disappear
They act like IN shock !
Like a wounded animal without restraint!
And it looked bad

Samsung has not changed much, on the screen Q9FN LIKE Q900
added a processor to the motherboard for UPSCALE no one is enthusiastic about this
Gave the possibility of 4000NITS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCHT2LDDxAo
I'm still not sure what your talking about...Who said ensures VRR and ALLM? The Q9FN already has both of them.. I owned one lol.

All the 2018 Samsung sets have VRR and ALLM so no doubt the 8K sets will also have them both.

You seem hurt for some reason.
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post #135 of 209 Old 09-02-2018, 05:23 PM
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For most, I bet 8K will always be overkill
8K could be the end to the Porn Industry! LOL

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post #136 of 209 Old 09-03-2018, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Callsign_Vega View Post
8K TV without a HDMI 2.1 48 Gbps port is like a car without gasoline. Worthless.
Captain Obvious.
How else do you bust an 8K TV into a 4K market? Upscaling. Just what happened a few years ago with 4K.
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post #138 of 209 Old 09-03-2018, 07:55 PM
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This reviewer commented that he really doesn't expect anyone to be able to tell the difference between 4k and 8K unless your looking at a set above 100"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=qCHT2LDDxAo


I wish Samsung’s engineering wizards were spending less time on 8K and more time on figuring out how to keep 4K Netflix letterbox bars black on friggin’ Lost in Space. Currently, I am un-dazzled.


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post #139 of 209 Old 09-03-2018, 10:38 PM
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No thanks i will wait for 16K
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post #140 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 08:57 AM
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#9e7aeef114a3


Some first impressions with lots of hands on info from John Archer.
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post #141 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#9e7aeef114a3


Some first impressions with lots of hands on info from John Archer.
Looks solid. I'll have first impressions from CEDIA shortly and will also get hands-on time with one shortly after I return home next week.
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post #142 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 09:33 AM
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Looking forward to it. He pretty much highlights one of the biggest advantages of this TV. Not so much 8K native but the power they have to improve the upscaling quality which has always had a lot of room for improvement.
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Looking forward to it. He pretty much highlights one of the biggest advantages of this TV. Not so much 8K native but the power they have to improve the upscaling quality which has always had a lot of room for improvement.
I got to preview these technologies at CES and also on a trip to Korea I took last year.

The reality is more processing power lets you use better algorithms, which have been available for up sampling and noise reduction for digital photography for years, but require more horsepower than what was built into TVs in the past. It's not voodoo magic, it's the literal reality that better processing and a "blank canvas" with more pixels (than the eye can resolve) allows you to present a better picture.
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post #144 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 12:46 PM
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I really want to like this set as I'm in the market for an 85"+ set with black levels at least as good as the Z9D. I'm just extremely skeptical that 4k upscaled to 8K can look better than native 4k.


Here's my question. As there is no 4k version of this set to use as a baseline, nor anything even close to it, how does one determine if 4k upscaled to 8k is better or worse than what this set would be like if it was native 4k?
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post #145 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 02:41 PM
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One thing i've read from impressions and even from watching the videos. The view angles are much improved and were very impressive for a VA panel. It hasn't been mentioned much but that would certainly be a good improvement even over the Q9FN.
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post #146 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 03:03 PM
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One thing i've read from impressions and even from watching the videos. The view angles are much improved and were very impressive for a VA panel. It hasn't been mentioned much but that would certainly be a good improvement even over the Q9FN.
I'm skeptical only because we've heard for two years now prior to the release of a flagship about improved viewing angles. Then the professional reviewers comment that the viewing angles, either vertical or horizontal are not that great as they were marketed.
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post #147 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 03:12 PM
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I'm skeptical only because we've heard for two years now prior to the release of a flagship about improved viewing angles. Then the professional reviewers comment that the viewing angles, either vertical or horizontal are not that great as they were marketed.


My Q9FN is not perfect, but noticeably better than my ks9800, and I had them side by side. Colors and blacks off angle are both better. I'd rate my ks9800 a 3 off angle and the Q9 a 5, but maybe a 6/7 if it's full screen saturated content.


Going from a 65"curve with bad viewing angles to a 75" with improved viewing angles really helped my corner setup. My sweet spot now is large enough that I can have people over and not worry too much about bad washout.
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post #148 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
My Q9FN is not perfect, but noticeably better than my ks9800, and I had them side by side. Colors and blacks off angle are both better. I'd rate my ks9800 a 3 off angle and the Q9 a 5, but maybe a 6 if it's full screen saturated content.
Is that out of 10? I'm not sure what your rating scale is lol. I have nothing to compare against, but I notice a color shift in skin tone on for instance CNN when im very little off center, like at the edge of my next sofa pillow of my 3 sofa pillow couch. That's not a very wide angle. Regardless, since I watch 99% of my content within those 3 sofa pillows, it doesn't bother me much. Maybe for full saturation it's better, I haven't tested very much
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post #149 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keithian View Post
Is that out of 10? I'm not sure what your rating scale is lol. I have nothing to compare against, but I notice a color shift in skin tone on for instance CNN when im very little off center, like at the edge of my next sofa pillow of my 3 sofa pillow couch. That's not a very wide angle. Regardless, since I watch 99% of my content within those 3 sofa pillows, it doesn't bother me much. Maybe for full saturation it's better, I haven't tested very much

Yea we'll go out of 10 lol but there saturated it is the better it holds off. Having an LCD with worse viewing angles next to it definitely helps you to gauge which content holds off better and how far. Granted it's not as far as oled or IPS but it's better than an average lcd despite rtings claims that it isn't. Even Vincent Teoh recently acknowledged that the Q9 has slightly better viewing angles than a normal lcd, and everyone is under the belief that he hates Samsung.
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post #150 of 209 Old 09-04-2018, 04:05 PM
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Just a worthless status symbol as the difference between 8K and 4K at average seating distance won't be different. Bring back 3D it was more engaging than even 4K.
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