Official Sony Master Series Z9F 75/65” Owners Thread (2018/2019) - Page 165 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4921 of 5709 Old 03-23-2019, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Sillyrabbit21 View Post
Coming from a 900F and trying to understand the motion flow settings on this set.

Basically I’m trying to duplicate my current set up of Motionflow True Cinema and Cinemotion High.

Instead of Cinemotion High, there’s Auto, will that do the same thing?

Also there’s no True Cinema option, what’s the best option to match the frame rate of the content being shown?
FWIW, I am using Custom with Smoothness=2, and Clearness=1. And Cinemotion is off. With these settings, I rarely see motion issues.

Note that with Clearness=1, the Brightness setting should be raised 2 points to compensate for the darkening associated with the Clearness setting.
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post #4922 of 5709 Old 03-23-2019, 01:36 PM
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Received my 65Z9F last Thursday, Saturday took down the plasma and mounted it. Update came today, no issue installing. Would have liked the 75er but space constraints held me to 65.
What do you think of your Z9F compared to your Plasam display?
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post #4923 of 5709 Old 03-23-2019, 06:21 PM
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Plasma vs Z9f

while the plasma works fine, I wanted more detail and a wider color gamut. I had compared the z9d and 930e 2 years ago and I don't know what held me back but now I also wanted the additional size. the z9f is great, went thru settings with what I liked then compared to what some on the forum have used also ratings settings. I must say though that netflix mode does look dark to me. Other equipment in my system are Anthem MRX1120, Martin Logan in a 7.1.2 configuration, Oppo UDP205, Xbox one x, PS4 pro. I have Verizon Fios and my wireless signal is great so no issues running apps on the TV
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post #4924 of 5709 Old 03-23-2019, 07:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by haroldwgnr View Post
while the plasma works fine, I wanted more detail and a wider color gamut. I had compared the z9d and 930e 2 years ago and I don't know what held me back but now I also wanted the additional size. the z9f is great, went thru settings with what I liked then compared to what some on the forum have used also ratings settings. I must say though that netflix mode does look dark to me. Other equipment in my system are Anthem MRX1120, Martin Logan in a 7.1.2 configuration, Oppo UDP205, Xbox one x, PS4 pro. I have Verizon Fios and my wireless signal is great so no issues running apps on the TV
I also have a Z9F and the Netflix mode is too dark for me. So, I watch Netflix without it and it's fine. Otherwise the Z9F is a great tv and best LCD on the market
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post #4925 of 5709 Old 03-23-2019, 07:18 PM
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I also have a Z9F and the Netflix mode is too dark for me. So, I watch Netflix without it and it's fine. Otherwise the Z9F is a great tv and best LCD on the market
I don’t think the Netflix Calibrated Mode forces a specific brightness setting. Based on the limited documentation of what this mode is doing, it has more to do with assisting the TV in processing the compression algorithms used by Netflix. So, why not simply raise the brightness setting and continue using the Calibrated Mode?
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post #4926 of 5709 Old 03-23-2019, 08:35 PM
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Just looking for some insight. I'm looking at replacing my 55E6P Oled with a 65 inch tv in the mancave. Oled is still a strong option, but this is the one LED I'm looking at currently. The reviews are baffling regarding not as good black level as the Z9D, blooming, etc. Owners seem to love the F and rave about it's performance. The guy at Magnolia said Sony issued a update after it's release that alleviated these issues. He mentioned that this was done after review samples were sent out. Unfortunately the 65Z9F at BB was out on the main floor so I couldn't see it in a dim environment. Just trying to figure out the disconnect between the reviewers and owners?I liked what I saw at the store, although it was not an ideal lighting situation.
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post #4927 of 5709 Old 03-23-2019, 10:17 PM
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Just looking for some insight. I'm looking at replacing my 55E6P Oled with a 65 inch tv in the mancave. Oled is still a strong option, but this is the one LED I'm looking at currently. The reviews are baffling regarding not as good black level as the Z9D, blooming, etc. Owners seem to love the F and rave about it's performance. The guy at Magnolia said Sony issued a update after it's release that alleviated these issues. He mentioned that this was done after review samples were sent out. Unfortunately the 65Z9F at BB was out on the main floor so I couldn't see it in a dim environment. Just trying to figure out the disconnect between the reviewers and owners?I liked what I saw at the store, although it was not an ideal lighting situation.
Blooming is visible in problematic HDR content like a night shot with very bright regions. It depends on how sensitive you are but I'll take it for all the other great things this TV does. Also black levels are hard to judge, it goes completely black due to the FALD in most cases, only in regions where you have both black and light that is inside the area for one of the back light will black levels be raised. This isn't easily seen though. OLED is great, but the risk of burn-in and mediocre brightness really makes the punch of HDR suffer, also Automatic Brightness Limiting which won't allow a full screen bright image to foo long before dimming it down is a huge problem for me. But for pure dark room SDR movie watching and OLED would be great. But the ZF9 is awesome when it comes to gaming and as a PC monitor. The screen uniformity is truly great for sports and such and has very natural skin tones and gradients etc. It has better backlight flickering of 720hz vs Samsungs sh**ty 120hz (movie 480hz) so you get much better motion handling outside just movie watching, like gaming. The motion interpolation for TV and movies is very good as well.
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post #4928 of 5709 Old 03-23-2019, 11:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sonyboy View Post
Just looking for some insight. I'm looking at replacing my 55E6P Oled with a 65 inch tv in the mancave. Oled is still a strong option, but this is the one LED I'm looking at currently. The reviews are baffling regarding not as good black level as the Z9D, blooming, etc. Owners seem to love the F and rave about it's performance. The guy at Magnolia said Sony issued a update after it's release that alleviated these issues. He mentioned that this was done after review samples were sent out. Unfortunately the 65Z9F at BB was out on the main floor so I couldn't see it in a dim environment. Just trying to figure out the disconnect between the reviewers and owners?I liked what I saw at the store, although it was not an ideal lighting situation.
I gave a review earlier in this thread. I spent a long time looking at LEDs at different stores and saw a huge difference between the Z9F and the Samsung Q9FN in detail and motion. The upscaling is the best in the world. Sometimes I'm watching 780i content and have to check that's it's not 4K. Watched golf on NBC (Dish) today and the picture was jaw dropping and no motion issues with the golf ball. As far as black levels, I'm watching the Z9F as I type this and the closed caption black bar is darker than the tv frame or my black soundbar. I don't know what more I could ask for.

Once Vincent Toh made his comments on youtube, the criticism of the Z9F began to snowball and all kinds of people that never saw one or owned one were ripping the TV. But that has happened before on AVS. It becomes a hobby for many here to diss certain sets.
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post #4929 of 5709 Old 03-24-2019, 03:41 AM
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I gave a review earlier in this thread. I spent a long time looking at LEDs at different stores and saw a huge difference between the Z9F and the Samsung Q9FN in detail and motion. The upscaling is the best in the world. Sometimes I'm watching 780i content and have to check that's it's not 4K. Watched golf on NBC (Dish) today and the picture was jaw dropping and no motion issues with the golf ball. As far as black levels, I'm watching the Z9F as I type this and the closed caption black bar is darker than the tv frame or my black soundbar. I don't know what more I could ask for.

Once Vincent Toh made his comments on youtube, the criticism of the Z9F began to snowball and all kinds of people that never saw one or owned one were ripping the TV. But that has happened before on AVS. It becomes a hobby for many here to diss certain sets.
Do you know if Vincent’s review was based on a previous firmware update. I am trying to work it out as some have suggested an improvement after the update.
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post #4930 of 5709 Old 03-24-2019, 07:34 AM
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Do you know if Vincent’s review was based on a previous firmware update. I am trying to work it out as some have suggested an improvement after the update.
I applied the FW update, and commented here that I did not notice a visible difference. PQ was great before and after the update. I also do not recall anyone else commenting that they saw a visible difference.

I rarely see issues with black bar blooming, and if I do, I am not overly sensitive too it. I continue to be extremely pleased with the overall performance of the Z9F, and would highly recommend it to anyone.
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post #4931 of 5709 Old 03-24-2019, 07:45 AM
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I applied the FW update, and commented here that I did not notice a visible difference. PQ was great before and after the update. I also do not recall anyone else commenting that they saw a visible difference.

I rarely see issues with black bar blooming, and if I do, I am not overly sensitive too it. I continue to be extremely pleased with the overall performance of the Z9F, and would highly recommend it to anyone.
I am currently torn between getting the 65inch ZF9 or the new 65inch X950G. I mostly watch in a dark room and sit straight on. The Z9F is currently £600 less than the X950G and that is allot of money for me.
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post #4932 of 5709 Old 03-24-2019, 04:17 PM
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Is there a protective film I need to peel off this TV? I can not believe what a mirror this set is. I can read the brand name off the grill on my deck 30+ feet away during the day time. Thought this had solid reflection rating according the RTing, would hate to see the worse ones.

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post #4933 of 5709 Old 03-24-2019, 04:34 PM
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Is there a protective film I need to peel off this TV? I can not believe what a mirror this set is. I can read the brand name off the grill on my deck 30+ feet away during the day time. Thought this had solid reflection rating according the RTing, would hate to see the worse ones.
There is no film. Like most TV’s, performance is best in a light-controlled environment.
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post #4934 of 5709 Old 03-24-2019, 05:40 PM
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I am currently torn between getting the 65inch ZF9 or the new 65inch X950G. I mostly watch in a dark room and sit straight on. The Z9F is currently £600 less than the X950G and that is allot of money for me.
ZF9 is easily the better TV, more dimming zones and brighter HDR, but if you don't want the X-wide technology 65 X950G is the way to go. I personally love the X-wide on my ZF9.
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Anyone have any recommendations re game mode brightness?

I've found 35 with Light Sensor on (with X-tended Dynamic Range to High) is perfect for regular TV content.

Game mode I can't help but feel is a little dim for some games, but part of it is comparing HDR games (which look amazing) to non-HDR. The non-HDR looks quite a bit dimmer, but cranking up the brightness helps that (still not as good as HDR, but it comes closer). I think I'm going to try Max with Light Sensor on since 35 is just a bit dimmer than I'd like. (Part of the issue is that I only now realized that my previous LG OLED really, really blew things out [unnaturally] in game mode more than I realized, and I'm still a little used to that, so I can't decide if the dimmer look is actually "correct".)

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post #4936 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 02:54 AM
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Anyone have any recommendations re game mode brightness?

I've found 35 with Light Sensor on (with X-tended Dynamic Range to High) is perfect for regular TV content.

Game mode I can't help but feel is a little dim for some games, but part of it is comparing HDR games (which look amazing) to non-HDR. The non-HDR looks quite a bit dimmer, but cranking up the brightness helps that (still not as good as HDR, but it comes closer). I think I'm going to try Max with Light Sensor on since 35 is just a bit dimmer than I'd like. (Part of the issue is that I only now realized that my previous LG OLED really, really blew things out [unnaturally] in game mode more than I realized, and I'm still a little used to that, so I can't decide if the dimmer look is actually "correct".)
I often turn Off the Light Sensor when I play SDR games. And in other SDR content I set my X-tended range to Low or Medium as I feel it gives the pictures highlights a too white-ish look on High and if maxing out brightnes isn’t enough I turn off Light Sensor as well.

BTW what do you mean the LG blew things out. Did it crush the image or was it very bright?

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post #4937 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 05:12 AM
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I often turn Off the Light Sensor when I play SDR games. And in other SDR content I set my X-tended range to Low or Medium as I feel it gives the pictures highlights a too white-ish look on High and if maxing out brightnes isn’t enough I turn off Light Sensor as well.

BTW what do you mean the LG blew things out. Did it crush the image or was it very bright?
The default LG Game mode settings are very bright (albeit not the whites, possibly because of the necessary brightness limiting), very saturated with color (much more than is natural, I'm finding out), and also very cool in temperature (and it didn't have the normal temp values like Neutral, Warm, and Expert - in Game mode these were all numbers like C60). For example, something that seemed bright red in SDR on the LG now is a darker shade of red more like magenta on this TV, even using a Neutral color temperature. I guess I never realized how far off it was; it wasn't quite like Vivid, but looking back, it was pretty close I'd say. [That said, I do prefer games a bit on the cooler side, as not all are developed at 6500K...it depends on the game tho'.] It looked good to my eyes when I got it, so I just never changed it. (HDR, on the other hand, tended to be too dim because the LG just couldn't output the necessary amount of light..it was worse for movies than games, but still applied.)

Anyway, interestingly, I tried God of War to compare HDR and SDR, and I got very different results from Spider Man. There's no appreciable OVERALL brightness difference between SDR (at 35 with the light sensor on) and HDR with God of War, but the color difference and highlights are wayyyy different. So I'm beginning to think 35 with light sensor on may be fine and it's going to depend more on the game.

I've played with X-tended Dynamic Range on Medium instead, but honestly I can't see that much of a difference over High, and it seems to affect overall brightness of the image more for me than only the whites, or at least that's my perception. I actually kept expecting it to blow out the whites, but when I compare it with Off but with brightness in general is turned up, I'm really not seeing much of a difference. I like it Off with brightness turned up, but the problem is the really bright scenes are just too bright for me that way. The difference with it on tends to be super bright large scenes, where it tones down overall brightness to keep things from hurting my eyes, but still keeping the image bright in other circumstances. I may play around with manual brightnesses some more, but I'm still having a hard time settling on anything, and it would require changing a lot as lighting conditions change.

One other thing I found out tonight regarding general viewing via Netflix. I do *not* personally like Netflix Calibrated Mode, at least when copying over the same settings as Custom. For some reason it has a very aggressive brightening and darkening behavior that is independent of any of the XDR or Advanced Contrast features and not happening in any other mode. Dark scenes dim down and bright scenes brighten up visibly while watching - I found it very distracting. It MAY only happen with XDR on though, as resetting it to defaults seemed to eliminate that behavior (but I also didn't like the picture as well in general that way).

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post #4938 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 06:07 AM
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I often turn Off the Light Sensor when I play SDR games. And in other SDR content I set my X-tended range to Low or Medium as I feel it gives the pictures highlights a too white-ish look on High and if maxing out brightnes isn’t enough I turn off Light Sensor as well.

BTW what do you mean the LG blew things out. Did it crush the image or was it very bright?
The default LG Game mode settings are very bright (albeit not the whites, possibly because of the necessary brightness limiting), very saturated with color (much more than is natural, I'm finding out), and also very cool in temperature (and it didn't have the normal temp values like Neutral, Warm, and Expert - in Game mode these were all numbers like C60). For example, something that seemed bright red in SDR on the LG now is a darker shade of red more like magenta on this TV, even using a Neutral color temperature. I guess I never realized how far off it was; it wasn't quite like Vivid, but looking back, it was pretty close I'd say. [That said, I do prefer games a bit on the cooler side, as not all are developed at 6500K...it depends on the game tho'.] It looked good to my eyes when I got it, so I just never changed it. (HDR, on the other hand, tended to be too dim because the LG just couldn't output the necessary amount of light..it was worse for movies than games, but still applied.)

Anyway, interestingly, I tried God of War to compare HDR and SDR, and I got very different results from Spider Man. There's no appreciable OVERALL brightness difference between SDR (at 35 with the light sensor on) and HDR with God of War, but the color difference and highlights are wayyyy different. So I'm beginning to think 35 with light sensor on may be fine and it's going to depend more on the game.

I've played with X-tended Dynamic Range on Medium instead, but honestly I can't see that much of a difference over High, and it seems to affect overall brightness of the image more for me than only the whites, or at least that's my perception. I actually kept expecting it to blow out the whites, but when I compare it with Off but with brightness in general is turned up, I'm really not seeing much of a difference. I like it Off with brightness turned up, but the problem is the really bright scenes are just too bright for me that way. The difference with it on tends to be super bright large scenes, where it tones down overall brightness to keep things from hurting my eyes, but still keeping the image bright in other circumstances. I may play around with manual brightnesses some more, but I'm still having a hard time settling on anything, and it would require changing a lot as lighting conditions change.

One other thing I found out tonight regarding general viewing via Netflix. I do *not* personally like Netflix Calibrated Mode, at least when copying over the same settings as Custom. For some reason it has a very aggressive brightening and darkening behavior that is independent of any of the XDR or Advanced Contrast features and not happening in any other mode. Dark scenes dim down and bright scenes brighten up visibly while watching - I found it very distracting. It MAY only happen with XDR on though, as resetting it to defaults seemed to eliminate that behavior (but I also didn't like the picture as well in general that way).
On your LG maybe it wasn't C60 but D60? D65 is the same as 6500k btw.

Spiderman HDR is borked. It has probably been mastered on an ~700nit OLED. The games peak luminance, eg sundisk in daytime, is no brighter than 650nit which is a shame and huge missed potential for high capable nit displays. I easily prefer the game in SDR as then the brightest parts of the image scale with your screens brightness. Though one workaround is to enable and set Live Color to High as it will remap the image so dull gray highlights becomes white.

Sony ZF9 75" (Owned: Sony KDL-W55905A, Samsung Q9FN 65" & Q900 75")
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post #4939 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 07:30 AM
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On your LG maybe it wasn't C60 but D60? D65 is the same as 6500k btw.

Spiderman HDR is borked. It has probably been mastered on an ~700nit OLED. The games peak luminance, eg sundisk in daytime, is no brighter than 650nit which is a shame and huge missed potential for high capable nit displays. I easily prefer the game in SDR as then the brightest parts of the image scale with your screens brightness. Though one workaround is to enable and set Live Color to High as it will remap the image so dull gray highlights becomes white.
I still have the LG (it's being picked up today possibly by its new owner), but peeked. Game mode by default (what I was used to) was set to C30.

What's weird is my experience with Spiderman was different. I vastly preferred the HDR. I found it plenty bright and punchy. However, I might see what you're saying - the SDR picture was darker overall, but probably had more range between bright and dark.

This video reflects what I saw, basically.
(He too seems to prefer the SDR, which I believe is on the right, from the text translation...whereas I really liked the HDR look). Unfortunately I could find no videos at night or sunset, which would have been interesting.

Now, God of War is completely different - the essential brightness of the images seem the same; it's the highlights that are vastly brighter and more colorful in HDR. But I didn't feel like the SDR image was darker like I did with Spider Man.

Also, in doing some SDR tests, I did notice a few instances where Local Dimming was too aggressive and X-tended Dynamic Range reduced brightness too much, so I now have both set to Medium and will try that, with the Light Sensor on at 40 (to make up for the slightly reduced contrast of setting both of those to Medium). We'll see how that works - seems to have reduced some of the side effects.
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post #4940 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 08:45 AM
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On your LG maybe it wasn't C60 but D60? D65 is the same as 6500k btw.

Spiderman HDR is borked. It has probably been mastered on an ~700nit OLED. The games peak luminance, eg sundisk in daytime, is no brighter than 650nit which is a shame and huge missed potential for high capable nit displays. I easily prefer the game in SDR as then the brightest parts of the image scale with your screens brightness. Though one workaround is to enable and set Live Color to High as it will remap the image so dull gray highlights becomes white.
I still have the LG (it's being picked up today possibly by its new owner), but peeked. Game mode by default (what I was used to) was set to C30.

What's weird is my experience with Spiderman was different. I vastly preferred the HDR. I found it plenty bright and punchy. However, I might see what you're saying - the SDR picture was darker overall, but probably had more range between bright and dark.

This video reflects what I saw, basically.
(He too seems to prefer the SDR, which I believe is on the right, from the text translation...whereas I really liked the HDR look). Unfortunately I could find no videos at night or sunset, which would have been interesting.

Now, God of War is completely different - the essential brightness of the images seem the same; it's the highlights that are vastly brighter and more colorful in HDR. But I didn't feel like the SDR image was darker like I did with Spider Man.

Also, in doing some SDR tests, I did notice a few instances where Local Dimming was too aggressive and X-tended Dynamic Range reduced brightness too much, so I now have both set to Medium and will try that, with the Light Sensor on at 40 (to make up for the slightly reduced contrast of setting both of those to Medium). We'll see how that works - seems to have reduced some of the side effects.
Our TV peaks around 1900nit so when you play the game in SDR. The whole luminance range from shadows to the sun map to it, making the sun, if your TV is set to Max brightness, 1900nit. If Spiderman's HDR implementation were correct, the sun should map to 1900 as well. But it instead maps to 650nit basically leaving 1250nit unused. This also has the unfortunate side effect of keeping the rest of the image too dark. And while I too prefer the colors and gradations in HDR, the image is only using half of your screens brightness potential. This is not a problem with most HDR games that has proper implementation. I mean the sun is 1.6 bilion nit and a clear sky is 7-8000nit a fully sun lit daylight scene/shoot is on average 10.000 nit. It's no coincidence that the HDR spec goes from 0-10.000nit. So Spiderman's sun capping out at 650 nit is a JOKE. Fortza Horizons 4 sun goes to 10.000 nit as does many other games with proper HDR.

Sony ZF9 75" (Owned: Sony KDL-W55905A, Samsung Q9FN 65" & Q900 75")

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post #4941 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 01:10 PM
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75" Z9F random reboot issues?

Hi all,

I am still enjoying this TV everyday, for multiple months now. However one little annoyance that has developed over the last month or so is that the set will randomly reboot itself with no rhyme or reason pattern, totally random, happens about once a week I would say. I am up to date on firmware. I have heard doing a factory reset can often fix this and I will proceed down that path.... But it will be a PITA to redo all my settings, so checking here if anyone has had this issue and is aware of a quicker fix?

Thanks you!
Jason
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post #4942 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 04:36 PM
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Hi all,

I am still enjoying this TV everyday, for multiple months now. However one little annoyance that has developed over the last month or so is that the set will randomly reboot itself with no rhyme or reason pattern, totally random, happens about once a week I would say. I am up to date on firmware. I have heard doing a factory reset can often fix this and I will proceed down that path.... But it will be a PITA to redo all my settings, so checking here if anyone has had this issue and is aware of a quicker fix?

Thanks you!
Jason
I had an issue early on in which the TV would immediately shut down after being powered up. While not the same as your issue, my issue was resolved by restoring the factory defaults. I made a choice that it was far less troublesome to re-enter my settings than endure having the TV power off. Ultimately, you may be faced with the same choice.

And since resetting to factory defaults, I have encountered no other issues.
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post #4943 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 08:06 PM
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Our TV peaks around 1900nit so when you play the game in SDR. The whole luminance range from shadows to the sun map to it, making the sun, if your TV is set to Max brightness, 1900nit. If Spiderman's HDR implementation were correct, the sun should map to 1900 as well. But it instead maps to 650nit basically leaving 1250nit unused. This also has the unfortunate side effect of keeping the rest of the image too dark. And while I too prefer the colors and gradations in HDR, the image is only using half of your screens brightness potential. This is not a problem with most HDR games that has proper implementation. I mean the sun is 1.6 bilion nit and a clear sky is 7-8000nit a fully sun lit daylight scene/shoot is on average 10.000 nit. It's no coincidence that the HDR spec goes from 0-10.000nit. So Spiderman's sun capping out at 650 nit is a JOKE. Fortza Horizons 4 sun goes to 10.000 nit as does many other games with proper HDR.
Ahhh...so essentially that explains the huge difference between HDR and SDR for Spider Man and why it's not so different for something like God of War. I think this TV must map all brightness upwards, which is why the HDR image is so much brighter, but the SDR image has more contrast in general (so appears darker for large sections, but still has bright highlights in others). I still like the HDR look, but definitely see your point and can see why people prefer things with more overall contrast...that's probably how HDR would look if it had the nits you're talking about.
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post #4944 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sgupta View Post
Ahhh...so essentially that explains the huge difference between HDR and SDR for Spider Man and why it's not so different for something like God of War. I think this TV must map all brightness upwards, which is why the HDR image is so much brighter, but the SDR image has more contrast in general (so appears darker for large sections, but still has bright highlights in others). I still like the HDR look, but definitely see your point and can see why people prefer things with more overall contrast...that's probably how HDR would look if it had the nits you're talking about.
Here are some comparisons:

Black-> [---] <-Brightest possible reproduction of nit.

HDR Full Spec: No consumer display exists yet, only in labs and a Sony prototype - 10.000 nit
[---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------]

Q900: 2500 nit -ish (up to ~4000 nit in Vivid mode but no sustainable)
[---------|--------|-----]

ZF9: 1671 nit
[---------|--------]

Spiderman HDR: 650 nit
[------]

[--] Spiderman SDR 200 nit -ish


Batman vs Superman: 4000 nit
As BvS contains brighter highlights than ZF9 can display, they either get clipped or Tone Mapped down (common on most OLEDs) to so to fit the source material withing the displays capability. thus squeezing BvS into ZF9 looks like his:

[---------|---------|---------|---------] BvS 4000 nit
[---------|---|--|-] <- BvS Top part of brightness squeezed into the ZF9 range.
[---------|--------] ZF9


Unfortunately there is no natural way to stretch lower HDR ranges into a higher one as you can with SDR so the sun just looks gray on ZF9. Unless you set Live Color to High

[---------|--------] ZF9
[------] Spiderman Gray HDR 650 nit sun
[------------------] Spiderman HDR with Live Color at High, sun now at 1600 nit.

[--] Spiderman SDR 200 nit -ish
[------------------] Spiderman SDR stretched to ZF9 1600 nit*
*buy increasing the TV brightness and X-tended range to max.

Hope this makes things more visual and clear or you might just think I'm crazy ^^
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post #4945 of 5709 Old 03-25-2019, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
Here are some comparisons:

[SNIP]

Hope this makes things more visual and clear or you might just think I'm crazy ^^
I definitely don't think you're crazy, and this is very interesting information; the visual representation is great and makes how the tech works much clearer, so thank you!

I did *not* have Live Color on for Spider Man in HDR. In SDR, XDR was High, but brightness of course was quite low (I'd estimate that in my fairly dark room 35 with light sensor on is about a 4 with light sensor off).

I sort of see what you mean about the sun in that video side-by-side I had posted; it looks uniformly bright in SDR, whereas in HDR it's grayer but there is a more defined bright spot in the middle. It honestly didn't bother me in the game, but I get what you're saying now. What's still a little bit counterintuitive to me is that the the overall SDR image was quite a bit darker as can be seen to some degree in the video [it's amplified at sunset and at night because of the darker overall conditions, which unfortunately isn't shown]. That can be alleviated by turning up the brightness, but it makes UI text and such much brighter than the HDR counterparts, so I'm thinking maybe it's just supposed to look that way in this particular title. People seem to like the more contrasty look overall; I'm in the minority as far as liking the HDR image for its vividness. That said, I love the HDR in God of War as well (and it is a more stark difference, even though brightness feels about the same).

Regarding the other part of the conversation, for anyone's reference who searches for this stuff, I've noticed a few differences by switching to Medium on the Local Dimming and X-tended Dynamic Range for SDR TV content. Medium seems to fix a situation where occasionally there's a bright spot on-screen (like a white box next to a newscaster) and the other non-white parts of the image get dimmer (ie. people's faces). I've also noticed when my AppleTV screensaver changes, it previously had an effect where it was too bright in spots and adjusted down over the course of a second or so, whereas now it doesn't do that. There's still a white flash between very dark and bright scenes, though. (Nothing seems to fix that except turning off ALD and XDR altogether, which of course isn't a solution.)
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post #4946 of 5709 Old 03-26-2019, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgupta View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
Here are some comparisons:

[SNIP]

Hope this makes things more visual and clear or you might just think I'm crazy ^^
I definitely don't think you're crazy, and this is very interesting information; the visual representation is great and makes how the tech works much clearer, so thank you!

I did *not* have Live Color on for Spider Man in HDR. In SDR, XDR was High, but brightness of course was quite low (I'd estimate that in my fairly dark room 35 with light sensor on is about a 4 with light sensor off).

I sort of see what you mean about the sun in that video side-by-side I had posted; it looks uniformly bright in SDR, whereas in HDR it's grayer but there is a more defined bright spot in the middle. It honestly didn't bother me in the game, but I get what you're saying now. What's still a little bit counterintuitive to me is that the the overall SDR image was quite a bit darker as can be seen to some degree in the video [it's amplified at sunset and at night because of the darker overall conditions, which unfortunately isn't shown]. That can be alleviated by turning up the brightness, but it makes UI text and such much brighter than the HDR counterparts, so I'm thinking maybe it's just supposed to look that way in this particular title. People seem to like the more contrasty look overall; I'm in the minority as far as liking the HDR image for its vividness. That said, I love the HDR in God of War as well (and it is a more stark difference, even though brightness feels about the same).

Regarding the other part of the conversation, for anyone's reference who searches for this stuff, I've noticed a few differences by switching to Medium on the Local Dimming and X-tended Dynamic Range for SDR TV content. Medium seems to fix a situation where occasionally there's a bright spot on-screen (like a white box next to a newscaster) and the other non-white parts of the image get dimmer (ie. people's faces). I've also noticed when my AppleTV screensaver changes, it previously had an effect where it was too bright in spots and adjusted down over the course of a second or so, whereas now it doesn't do that. There's still a white flash between very dark and bright scenes, though. (Nothing seems to fix that except turning off ALD and XDR altogether, which of course isn't a solution.)
Just know that in SDR mode XDR is a technique to artificially raise the brighter parts of the image in an attempt to emulate HDR. The image you get is incorrect and contains errors so to speak, just be aware of that. I use it as well but most often on Low or Medium.

The white after images are the FALD zones shutting down after displaying very bright objects with some delay to smooth our potential fluctuations in image transitions to make the dimming algorithm more stable.

Sony ZF9 75" (Owned: Sony KDL-W55905A, Samsung Q9FN 65" & Q900 75")
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post #4947 of 5709 Old 03-26-2019, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
Just know that in SDR mode XDR is a technique to artificially raise the brighter parts of the image in an attempt to emulate HDR. The image you get is incorrect and contains errors so to speak, just be aware of that. I use it as well but most often on Low or Medium.

The white after images are the FALD zones shutting down after displaying very bright objects with some delay to smooth our potential fluctuations in image transitions to make the dimming algorithm more stable.
Ahhh! An explanation of what I'm seeing re the transitions! Perfect - thanks for the information. I've been trying to figure out what was happening for days. Sounds like there is no way to avoid.

I think I'll stick to medium... I'd actually love to turn it off, but, my picture is just too dim if I do that, or I raise the brightness to get an appealing image, but the bright whites (especially if full screen in ads and such) literally make my eyes and head hurt. XDR seems like the best compromise since it doesn't change the colors (like Advanced Contrast does).
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post #4948 of 5709 Old 03-26-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
Just know that in SDR mode XDR is a technique to artificially raise the brighter parts of the image in an attempt to emulate HDR. The image you get is incorrect and contains errors so to speak, just be aware of that. I use it as well but most often on Low or Medium.

The white after images are the FALD zones shutting down after displaying very bright objects with some delay to smooth our potential fluctuations in image transitions to make the dimming algorithm more stable.
First, I hope nobody minds this discussion as I know there's been a lot of back and forth about these specific features of this TV. I'd imagine it'll be helpful for more than just me since there's really not a separate settings thread.

Based on your explanation of XDR artificially emulating HDR on SDR signals, I decided to try the picture WITHOUT XDR on the various modes (with local dimming on medium) and discovered something I find really interesting. In Custom mode, where I've played with it the most, it doesn't really seem to affect colors much. But both in Game mode and in certain modes on the TV like the built-in apps, it most certainly does, and this is something I missed before! One of my slight frustrations in game mode was the colors in SDR always looked just a bit off, especially in the menus - muted or flat might be appropriate adjectives. As soon as I tried it without XDR (which is on by default for game mode, so I never disabled it), instantly things looked more right to my eyes. I don't find that same thing in Custom mode for video content, so it took me by surprise. I may see if I can get used to SDR without any XDR enhancement if I can find a suitable brightness (for gaming especially).

That said, now I'm wondering about HDR. I've read XDR is supposed to be enabled for HDR, and it's on by default, but wouldn't that also contain the "errors" you're talking about? Or does that not apply to HDR or Dolby Vision for some reason? In other words, would it be "purer" HDR if XDR was off too? (I tested this just out of curiosity and while very slightly dimmer, it still looked good, but I'd like a more objective answer.)

I also don't see much difference between Local Dimming on High vs. Medium, so I think I'll stick with the less aggressive setting. (Low does become too apparent on dark scenes.)

Thanks.
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post #4949 of 5709 Old 03-26-2019, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
Just know that in SDR mode XDR is a technique to artificially raise the brighter parts of the image in an attempt to emulate HDR. The image you get is incorrect and contains errors so to speak, just be aware of that. I use it as well but most often on Low or Medium.

The white after images are the FALD zones shutting down after displaying very bright objects with some delay to smooth our potential fluctuations in image transitions to make the dimming algorithm more stable.
First, I hope nobody minds this discussion as I know there's been a lot of back and forth about these specific features of this TV. I'd imagine it'll be helpful for more than just me since there's really not a separate settings thread.

Based on your explanation of XDR artificially emulating HDR on SDR signals, I decided to try the picture WITHOUT XDR on the various modes (with local dimming on medium) and discovered something I find really interesting. In Custom mode, where I've played with it the most, it doesn't really seem to affect colors much. But both in Game mode and in certain modes on the TV like the built-in apps, it most certainly does, and this is something I missed before! One of my slight frustrations in game mode was the colors in SDR always looked just a bit off, especially in the menus - muted or flat might be appropriate adjectives. As soon as I tried it without XDR (which is on by default for game mode, so I never disabled it), instantly things looked more right to my eyes. I don't find that same thing in Custom mode for video content, so it took me by surprise. I may see if I can get used to SDR without any XDR enhancement if I can find a suitable brightness (for gaming especially).

That said, now I'm wondering about HDR. I've read XDR is supposed to be enabled for HDR, and it's on by default, but wouldn't that also contain the "errors" you're talking about? Or does that not apply to HDR or Dolby Vision for some reason? In other words, would it be "purer" HDR if XDR was off too? (I tested this just out of curiosity and while very slightly dimmer, it still looked good, but I'd like a more objective answer.)

I also don't see much difference between Local Dimming on High vs. Medium, so I think I'll stick with the less aggressive setting. (Low does become too apparent on dark scenes.)

Thanks.
XDR should be set to High in HDR and does produce an accurate image. In SDR gaming I prefer to first control the image with brightness, often with Brightness Limiter off, and then maybe XDR Low or sometimes Medium for some extra punch depending on the game and time of day in my room, but as you said it does skew/mute colors a bit.

Local dimming is applied a bit less strongly in Graphics for the most uniform and accurate image but with some black level trade off, it's best suited for actual graphics work asthis mode preserves very small high lights with full luminosity that the other modes dim down in order to lower the black level and increase contrast, like Game and Cinema. My recommendation is to never use LD Low in any mode really. And there is a slight difference between High and Medium but is hard to spot. High priorities peak luminance of high lights over blooming where's Medium tries to maintain black levels and keep blooming down at the expense of some image pop. It's fairly subtle and very scene dependent.

Sony ZF9 75" (Owned: Sony KDL-W55905A, Samsung Q9FN 65" & Q900 75")

Last edited by JoelArt; 03-26-2019 at 10:42 AM.
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post #4950 of 5709 Old 03-26-2019, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
XDR should be set to High in HDR and does produce an accurate image. In SDR gaming I prefer to first control the image with brightness, often with Brightness Limiter off, and then maybe XDR Low or sometimes Medium for some extra punch depending on the game and time of day in my room, but as you said it does skew/mute colors a bit.

Local dimming is applied a bit less strongly in Graphics for the most uniform and accurate image but with some black level trade off, it's best suited for actual graphics work asthis mode preserves very small high lights with full luminosity that the other modes dim down in order to lower the black level and increase contrast, like Game and Cinema. My recommendation is to never use LD Low in any mode really. And there is a slight difference between High and Medium but is hard to spot. High priorities peak luminance of high lights over blooming where's Medium tries to maintain black levels and keep blooming down at the expense of some image pop. It's fairly subtle and very scene dependent.
It's interesting that XDR doesn't skew HDR/Dolby Vision in the same way. I guess from your previous explanation, it just allows the extra data that's there to fit in the widest possible range without needing to introduce any errors, whereas with SDR there just isn't enough data to do this without introducing skewing?

For Local Dimming, I'll stick to Medium for everything SDR I think. I take it High is generally recommended for HDR/Dolby Vision?

I think I'm getting there with settings... My old OLED is officially in its new home so there's no going back now. =oP
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