Official Sony Master Series Z9F 75/65” Owners Thread (2018/2019) - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MLM87 View Post
What content are you watching? Sometimes Netflix can have issues with black bar performance on even top sets , including Bright and sometimes Stranger Things. To me, the best test is the campfire scene in Ridiculous 6. Even with top sets, there's blooming from the campfire and the black bars go from deep black to grey in seconds.
I would like to run this test. I don’t want to watch a 2-hour movie to find one particular scene—do you have the approximate spot where the scene appears?
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post #182 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 02:56 PM
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I would like to run this test. I don’t want to watch a 2-hour movie to find one particular scene—do you have the approximate spot where the scene appears?
I said this earlier in the thread:
Zones are important, but I have heard the 65 z9d(600 zones) has worse black bar and local dimming performance(blooming problems) than the x940e(270 zones). So I would really focus on dark room performance. Is there blooming? How often do you see bright hallos on the black bars, ect? Also, check out specific content. My usual test is Bright(netflix) Ridiculous 6(starting at 33:21, campfire scene). If the bars are completely black during the Ridiculous 6 campfire scene, then the local dimming performance on this thing is terrific. When I had x850d, the black bars were bright or grey throughout this scene. With the x930(I have a broken panel now), I get some blooming throughout the scene, though not as bad as the x850d.
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post #183 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 03:02 PM
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How about we just worry about how this TV is doing and all the OLED talk can happen in the OLED owners thread.

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The Master Series are OLEDs and LCDs, if that were not the case i would not bring up OLEDs. It is inevitable that the OLED part of that Series pops up once a while...blame Sony not me.
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post #184 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 03:05 PM
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I’ll check that out tomorrow evening


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Make sure the room is somewhat dark so you can test out the black bar performance. In this specific scene from Ridiculous 6(Netflix) , the top bar on my x930e literally blooms grey. The middle of the top bar is very noticable. It's clearly coming from the campfire source. It really becomes apparent when Little Peep is writing a letter to his mom at the fire place.
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post #185 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 03:39 PM
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I can't seriously any post that references some character called little peep. Sorry .
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Originally Posted by MLM87 View Post
Make sure the room is somewhat dark so you can test out the black bar performance. In this specific scene from Ridiculous 6(Netflix) , the top bar on my x930e literally blooms grey. The middle of the top bar is very noticable. It's clearly coming from the campfire source. It really becomes apparent when Little Peep is writing a letter to his mom at the fire place.
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post #186 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 03:45 PM
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I guess we will need more evaluation to determine this but.....I am guessing it's safe to say from reading so far this is not a set Z9D owners should consider upgrading to? If not, the only alternative.......as far as I am concerned, is the 77C8, which right now has the same street price as the 75Z9F.

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post #187 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 03:47 PM
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You think the 77C8 is comparable ? Motion blur and all. (Viewing angle etc)?
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I guess we will need more evaluation to determine this but.....I am guessing it's safe to say from reading so far this is not a set Z9D owners should consider upgrading to? If not, the only alternative.......as far as I am concerned, is the 77C8, which right now has the same street price as the 75Z9F.
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post #188 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 03:52 PM
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You think the 77C8 is comparable ? Motion blur and all. (Viewing angle etc)?

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Yep. Many people including me are not sensitive to motion,,,,,,I dare say most people are not. Uniformity maybe.

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post #189 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 03:54 PM
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Cool ... I super sensitive to judder, black crush, motion blur, and the old LCD cloudy backlight.

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Yep. Many people including me are not sensitive to motion,,,,,,I dare say most people are not. Uniformity maybe.
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post #190 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 03:56 PM
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The calculation I did based on previous zone counts (104 and 288) put the 75 at almost half the square inches of display per zone. In other words nearly double the zone "density" for the 75 which didn't make sense. 255 certainly brings them closer together (of course that relies on the 104 count being accurate) but still gives the 75 a good sized edge.

Well one day someone will have the 65 and 75 Z9F side by side and use two OPPO's 203 and run a good movie that has plenty of blooming like "Deep Water Horizon" and see if the 75 inch will be better than the 65 for having less blooming

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post #191 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mixdoctor View Post
I guess we will need more evaluation to determine this but.....I am guessing it's safe to say from reading so far this is not a set Z9D owners should consider upgrading to? If not, the only alternative.......as far as I am concerned, is the 77C8, which right now has the same street price as the 75Z9F.
Don't know that I would make that blanket statement. I love my Z but it does have shortcomings. From my front row seating which is two seats with each centered more or less on each end of the TV, I can clearly see the dropoff in contrast and the poorer blackbar performance on the opposite side of the TV. In my case it isn't enough for me to want to upgrade (at least not that TV ), but others might find the Z9F off axis performance improvement enough of a reason for them.

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post #192 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MLM87 View Post
I said this earlier in the thread:
Zones are important, but I have heard the 65 z9d(600 zones) has worse black bar and local dimming performance(blooming problems) than the x940e(270 zones). So I would really focus on dark room performance. Is there blooming? How often do you see bright hallos on the black bars, ect? Also, check out specific content. My usual test is Bright(netflix) Ridiculous 6(starting at 33:21, campfire scene). If the bars are completely black during the Ridiculous 6 campfire scene, then the local dimming performance on this thing is terrific. When I had x850d, the black bars were bright or grey throughout this scene. With the x930(I have a broken panel now), I get some blooming throughout the scene, though not as bad as the x850d.
Sorry, I obviously did not read your previous post carefully. When I play the scene from Netflix on my 75X940D, the black bars are jet black throughout the scene. I verified that the display is in HDR mode.

Here is an iPhone pic. It is still daytime here, so the room is not 100% dark, and you can see my bias lighting behind the display.




@djoberg : Did you try this scene? If you are continuing to see light bleed into the bars, maybe its time to either re-check your settings, or resign yourself that the display may be defective in some way. Your thoughts?
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post #193 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bluemoon737 View Post
Don't know that I would make that blanket statement. I love my Z but it does have shortcomings. From my front row seating which is two seats with each centered more or less on each end of the TV, I can clearly see the dropoff in contrast and the poorer blackbar performance on the opposite side of the TV. In my case it isn't enough for me to want to upgrade (at least not that TV ), but others might find the Z9F off axis performance improvement enough of a reason for them.

Very true the Z9D does have its shortcomings, but I am not sure this set overcomes many of them. At least enough to shell out more money for an upgrade.
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post #194 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 04:57 PM
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Very true the Z9D does have its shortcomings, but I am not sure this set overcomes many of them. At least enough to shell out more money for an upgrade.
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post #195 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLM87 View Post
Make sure the room is somewhat dark so you can test out the black bar performance. In this specific scene from Ridiculous 6(Netflix) , the top bar on my x930e literally blooms grey. The middle of the top bar is very noticable. It's clearly coming from the campfire source. It really becomes apparent when Little Peep is writing a letter to his mom at the fire place.
I tested on my 65Z9d and I couldn't detect any blooming in that scene. I checked Black Panther where colors and studio lighting is even better and no blooming. I did go off center quite a bit and saw maybe 2/5% in its brightest area. Still very difficult to discern. I then went to the credits on both movies still really couldn't tell until I went off center by 45%. If I stooped by 2 feet then the top bar lit up by 10% and the bottom was still perfect. If I raised my head then the top was perfect and the bottom was maybe 10%. So the angle of the tv - too far up or too far down can play some tricks.

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post #196 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 05:47 PM
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Sorry, I obviously did not read your previous post carefully. When I play the scene from Netflix on my 75X940D, the black bars are jet black throughout the scene. I verified that the display is in HDR mode.

Here is an iPhone pic. It is still daytime here, so the room is not 100% dark, and you can see my bias lighting behind the display.



Oh, I meant night time viewing. Needs to be pitch black to see blooming. You will see blooming on a x940d. That's for sure.

@djoberg : Did you try this scene? If you are continuing to see light bleed into the bars, maybe its time to either re-check your settings, or resign yourself that the display may be defective in some way. Your thoughts?
Oh, I meant night time viewing. Needs to be pitch black to see blooming. You will see blooming on a x940d. That's for sure.
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post #197 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 05:55 PM
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I tested on my 65Z9d and I couldn't detect any blooming in that scene. I checked Black Panther where colors and studio lighting is even better and no blooming. I did go off center quite a bit and saw maybe 2/5% in its brightest area. Still very difficult to discern. I then went to the credits on both movies still really couldn't tell until I went off center by 45%. If I stooped by 2 feet then the top bar lit up by 10% and the bottom was still perfect. If I raised my head then the top was perfect and the bottom was maybe 10%. So the angle of the tv - too far up or too far down can play some tricks.

That seems about right, since it's 600 zones and decent local dimming. Just out out of curiosity, which scenes from specific content show blooming on z9d? iwas thinking about using my exchange option to get a z9d. Worried about motion though. I watch alot of sports and fast action movies. I do know pixel response is a lot worse than x930e.
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post #198 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 05:56 PM
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@djoberg : Did you try this scene? If you are continuing to see light bleed into the bars, maybe its time to either re-check your settings, or resign yourself that the display may be defective in some way. Your thoughts?
Hey Jerry,

Would you believe I'm one of the few AVS members who doesn't have Netflix? (I do have Amazon Prime though, but I doubt I can get Ridiculous 6 through that venue.)

The letter-boxed bars do look fantastic on that pic but as MLM87 said, you should be checking it out in a completely black environment. I know that even at night, if I have my Ideal-Lume Bias lighting on my black bars will appear darker than when it is off.

As far as my settings go, I haven't changed them at all since dialing in YOUR EXCELLENT SETTINGS () over a year ago! Regarding my display being defective, like I said in a previous post I sent pictures into the Sony engineering department and they said the blooming was "within the parameters of LCD technology."

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post #199 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 05:56 PM
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Oh, I meant night time viewing. Needs to be pitch black to see blooming. You will see blooming on a x940d. That's for sure.
Does pitch black mean I need to turn off the bias lighting? I am unwilling to verify the test is valid if the bias lighting is off. And I honestly don’t know why you can predict the performance of my display, unless you think I am blind.
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post #200 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 06:01 PM
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As you should have already seen shoman, he DID end up responding, and in a very gracious manner. Again, 6K is not "spare change" for most of us and thus my question about blooming was justified. I bought the 940D thinking the blooming would be minimal, but it is NOT minimal when it comes to HDR. If the Z9F turns out to have the same problem with blooming, then I can cross it off my perspective list "and relax."
If you want no blooming, OLED is the way.

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I guess we will need more evaluation to determine this but.....I am guessing it's safe to say from reading so far this is not a set Z9D owners should consider upgrading to? If not, the only alternative.......as far as I am concerned, is the 77C8, which right now has the same street price as the 75Z9F.
Unless you have a dedicated media room, a JVC or Sony projector will get close to these high end sets.....
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post #201 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 06:22 PM
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Does pitch black mean I need to turn off the bias lighting? I am unwilling to verify the test is valid if the bias lighting is off. And I honestly don’t know why you can predict the performance of my display, unless you think I am blind.
Yes, for testing purposes, I wouldn't use bias lighting. You want to just use the local dimming on the tv. Since it's an LED, you probably will see blooming. What kind of bias lighting do you use?
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post #202 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MLM87 View Post
That seems about right, since it's 600 zones and decent local dimming. Just out out of curiosity, which scenes from specific content show blooming on z9d? iwas thinking about using my exchange option to get a z9d. Worried about motion though. I watch alot of sports and fast action movies. I do know pixel response is a lot worse than x930e.
Most city scenes with street light chases such as John Wick 2 and Black Panther has some glare from city lights. In Black Panther you can look at crossing the bridge at night is well controlled lighting on black backgrounds which look like the famous Vegas City Lights Sony Demo. Since it looks very very good in some movies and not so much in others then Post Production and the Colorists must have a lot to do with the final look. Black Panther seems to be the best on Netflix so far. Don't have any DV disks yet.

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post #203 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 06:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Spending too much time on this black bar thing. Just evaluated it some more. The bar luminance moves up and down with surrounding zone luminance but mostly stays at a black level that keeps it out of mind (to me anyway). I have no reference for if it’s better or worse than what some of you existing Sony users are accustomed to.

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If you want no blooming, OLED is the way.
Yep, I do realize that all LCD/LED displays will have "some" blooming, no matter how good they are, though some come amazingly close to eliminating it (I'm thinking Z9D and one of the Vizio P series). Regarding my Sony 940D, I am bewildered by the fact that in some UHD/HDR Blu-rays with bright objects adjacent to the black bars, I see no blooming whatsoever. A case in point would be The Revenant where there is at least one campfire scene where my bars remain PITCH BLACK (the only scene in the whole movie with blooming is the scene where men are walking through the forest at night with torches).

I could very well end up with an OLED one day. Thing is, when I purchased my 940D I was drooling over the LG OLED 77" but my wallet and my wife said, "No way are you forking over 20K for a tv!!"

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post #205 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Different topic. If you want to know for sure that DV is engaged, you should see a DV logo appear top right when it’s started. If you want to verify after hit the "Display" button to see what mode the display has active.

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post #206 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 07:01 PM
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I considered the Sony projector ... Until I saw the size of that thing. My big issue w OLED is crushed black detail and too much contrast. It's subjective in the end. All consumer sets have some issue. Picking the one that offends you the least is a personal taste thing.

Thomas ... Overall what's your take to this point??

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If you want no blooming, OLED is the way.

Unless you have a dedicated media room, a JVC or Sony projector will get close to these high end sets.....
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post #207 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 07:24 PM
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Yes, for testing purposes, I wouldn't use bias lighting. You want to just use the local dimming on the tv. Since it's an LED, you probably will see blooming. What kind of bias lighting do you use?
I use Ideal-Lume bias lighting from Cinemaquest, which is [email protected]% (https://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm).

OK, it is pitch black in my viewing room now. Here are two pics, one with bias lighting on, one with bias lighting off. No perceptible bleeding into the black bars, IMO. Look at the tip of the flame--no bleeding.






I suggest you check your display's calibration. I think this obsession with the black bars is completely over the top.
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post #208 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

The letter-boxed bars do look fantastic on that pic but as MLM87 said, you should be checking it out in a completely black environment. I know that even at night, if I have my Ideal-Lume Bias lighting on my black bars will appear darker than when it is off.
If the black bars appear darker, why would you ever turn the bias lighting off? The purpose of bias lighting is to enhance the quality of the image you are viewing. Why else would we have bias lighting?

No disrespect, but suggesting that I turn the bias lighting off to be able to better view the bleeding is ridiculous.
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post #209 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
If the black bars appear darker, why would you ever turn the bias lighting off? The purpose of bias lighting is to enhance the quality of the image you are viewing. Why else would we have bias lighting?

No disrespect, but suggesting that I turn the bias lighting off to be able to better view the bleeding is ridiculous.
Now come on Jerry, I think you are being a little sensitive here. First of all, I was only suggesting turning off the bias lighting to see if one will see blooming in a completely dark environment. Unlike you, most members prefer a dark room for movie watching and do not use bias lighting.

I think I had already told you this on the 940D thread, but I quit using my bias lighting because I was more distracted than ever with it on. Granted, my bars looked blacker, but I was distracted by being able to see my whole display with part of my back wall lit up. As I said before on this subject, when you go to a state-of-the-art movie theater, you don't watch a move with bias lighting. You watch it in complete darkness so you are totally focused on the movie (without being distracted by lighting of any kind).

I will say that IF I use my bias lighting, it is either because I'm experiencing eye strain, or one of my guests prefers to have it on to prevent eye strain.

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post #210 of 7137 Old 09-08-2018, 07:43 PM
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Who cares about black bars. I know I'm not watching them. Does the picture look amazing? Watch what is intended and not the static black grey image

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