Samsung 8K Q900R QLED: Why More Pixels Matter - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 469 Old 10-09-2018, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by egrady View Post
8K60 is a big deal to me, where do they commit to doing this upgrade? All I've seen is their reps telling people at shows its on the drawing board.

Its on all the official websites at the bottom of the product page. This is taken from the Samsung USA site.

"Complimentary HDMI 8K 60Hz upgrade included (contact customer support)."
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post #242 of 469 Old 10-09-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
I will say that if you bought your tv after the above post where Samsung claimed they were going to be able to do it(with proof), then you should be able to get a refund. If you purchased BEFORE the above screen shot, you have no case.
Most definitely after that post. I have proof. Like I said, Samsung's statement was what convinced me it was time to buy that TV. Unfortunately they won't refund my money. People have tried. There is a petition.


Do you mind retracting you accusations of entitlement now?
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post #243 of 469 Old 10-09-2018, 02:06 PM
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Most definitely after that post. I have proof. Like I said, Samsung's statement was what convinced me it was time to buy that TV. Unfortunately they won't refund my money. People have tried. There is a petition.


Do you mind retracting you accusations of entitlement now?


In your case I will say yes I retract it. I've seen too many people though who have cried foul who bought their 2016 tv before HDR10+ was even mentioned in the wild. Then there's the iffy line of being able to determine if someone was actually aware of this when they bought the tv after April 17th 2017, or if they are just using it as an excuse to have a chance to upgrade without a loss.

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post #244 of 469 Old 10-09-2018, 03:06 PM
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post #245 of 469 Old 10-09-2018, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
In your case I will say yes I retract it. I've seen too many people though who have cried foul who bought their 2016 tv before HDR10+ was even mentioned in the wild. Then there's the iffy line of being able to determine if someone was actually aware of this when they bought the tv after April 17th 2017, or if they are just using it as an excuse to have a chance to upgrade without a loss.
The problem we're going to have here, is if the SEK-4500 does have HDR 10+ for earlier year TVs, where does this leave the sets in the middle ?
Maybe why there's yet to be any concrete specs on the upgrade OCB ?

Assuming this new 8K DOES have HDR 10+, where are the videos going to come from to watch? HDR 10+ currently, is vapourware!

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post #246 of 469 Old 10-09-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
Its on all the official websites at the bottom of the product page. This is taken from the Samsung USA site.

"Complimentary HDMI 8K 60Hz upgrade included (contact customer support)."

OK, thanks, I didn't go all the way to the bottom of the web page.


Can HDMI 2.0 pass 8K 60Hz? I didn't think it could but my search didn't lead to a definitive answer.
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post #247 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 03:49 AM
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1st review. John got to spend a full day with the 85Q900R.

Service menu shows it has the same 480 zone count as the Q9FN.

Also, looks like Samsung is again hammering home that the TV will have hdmi 2.1, when the hardware is available the Q900R will start shipping with it during its cycle, while upgrade boxes will be given to the early models that did not ship with 2.1


https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...mpression=true
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post #248 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 04:10 AM
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2nd review, by Steve Withers.


https://www.wired.co.uk/article/sams...0-8k-tv-review
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post #249 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 05:27 AM
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Read both reviews. Some interesting numbers and impressions by both Steve and John.
Forbes saying it hits 4800 nits in standard mode and 2500 in movie.
Steve saying his hits over 3000 in movie/calibrated but its a pre production model and the retail model will hit 4000.

"The same is true of the space-based thrills in Gravity: the Q900 reveals every tiny detail in the spacesuits, ships and star fields. This particular film also showcases another aspect of the AI processing: the effectiveness of the local dimming.
As Sandra Bullock's character tumbles through space, she appears as a bright white object against a sea of stars. The Q900 picks out the individual stars, while also highlighting Bullock’s spacesuit without creating any blooming. This scene is a torture test for local-dimming systems, and the Q900 passed with flying colour"


" Samsung plan to replace the existing box with one that includes HDMI 2.1, but what the company hasn’t decided yet is whether that upgrade will be free or not."

"However, Samsung assures me that it will start shipping Q900Rs in the new year with updated One Connect boxes equipped with a single HDMI 2.1 port. At which point people who buy Q900Rs now will be able to replace their One Connect boxes with the new HDMI 2.1 versions"
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post #250 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow that's really obnoxious of those guys to publish those reviews before the 9am embargo lifts. Well, I was aiming to publish at 9 but since the cat's out of the bag I think I'll take my dog for a walk and have a coffee first.

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post #251 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 05:55 AM
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A little more information from Steve.

"I measured 3200nits in Standard mode and 2700nits in Movie mode"

"I tested all four modes to check and never got higher than 3200nits. Samsung did show us a photo of a sample in Korea that was hitting 4800nits, and they said that the finished production samples would be capable of nearly 5000nits in Standard mode and 4000nits in Movie mode."
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What I'm hearing is, 4000 nits in Dynamic mode, 2000 nits in movie mode is the "spec" and then there are just the multiple realities of unit to unit variance, and even the exact settings to use on your meter, how well your light meter is calibrated, how well your light meter deals with really bright highlights, and the actual timing of that measurement since there's usually some ramp up or ramp down.

To the point where a specific number is really much less meaningful than just looking at the screen and deciding if you like what you see. This should be self-evident to anybody who likes HDR on a projector, where the highlights are just a couple hundred nits.

Okay great, this TV can get super bright. That's a fact, but it's a capability that would be a mistake to focus on, as compared to what it's able to do in terms of image processing and what picture quality is like in general, as opposed to what a blown-out square in the middle of the screen measures when in Dynamic mode.

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post #253 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
A little more information from Steve.

"I measured 3200nits in Standard mode and 2700nits in Movie mode"

"I tested all four modes to check and never got higher than 3200nits. Samsung did show us a photo of a sample in Korea that was hitting 4800nits, and they said that the finished production samples would be capable of nearly 5000nits in Standard mode and 4000nits in Movie mode."
Well I suppose the most fun part will be that all the measurements everybody who had hands on time with that TV posts will have come from the exact same TV. So hopefully someone will create a chart and show what the variations are between what each reviewer says, and maybe there will be some theories about where those variations come from. LOL.

I didn't spend my day with it sitting around hunting for the highest nits on a cherry-picked TV.

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post #254 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
1st review. John got to spend a full day with the 85Q900R.

Service menu shows it has the same 480 zone count as the Q9FN.

Also, looks like Samsung is again hammering home that the TV will have hdmi 2.1, when the hardware is available the Q900R will start shipping with it during its cycle, while upgrade boxes will be given to the early models that did not ship with 2.1


https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc...mpression=true

I found this review comprehensive and objective. But my interest in this set just went to zero.


There is simply no substitute for a large number of dimming zones. They didn't even increase the number to keep the ratio the same as the 75Q9FN. Their solution to address the black crush, of the Q9, is to raise the black level? Blooming into scope bars? Hocus, pocus to cheap out on dimming zones simply doesn't work for me.
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post #256 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Well I suppose the most fun part will be that all the measurements everybody who had hands on time with that TV posts will have come from the exact same TV. So hopefully someone will create a chart and show what the variations are between what each reviewer says, and maybe there will be some theories about where those variations come from. LOL.

I didn't spend my day with it sitting around hunting for the highest nits on a cherry-picked TV.
I would imagine maybe Steves measurements are from a different sample being that hes in the UK unless he had to fly to the states for this.
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post #257 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 12:53 PM
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Wow that's really obnoxious of those guys to publish those reviews before the 9am embargo lifts. Well, I was aiming to publish at 9 but since the cat's out of the bag I think I'll take my dog for a walk and have a coffee first.

Maybe they had a different embargo in Europe?
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post #258 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 12:55 PM
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So 4000 nits is in dynamic mode only? So much for not needing to tone map when calibrated.
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post #259 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe they had a different embargo in Europe?
Forbes is not Europe; AFAIK there was only one embargo time. Matters not, everyone has published now including CNET and HD-Guru. I did ask what exactly happened, but the answer hardly matters now. And sure, I do get the day starts earlier across the pond.

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So 4000 nits is in dynamic mode only? So much for not needing to tone map when calibrated.
Correct, Vivid mode only for the marketing spec-friendly peak luminance value.

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post #261 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 01:05 PM
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CNET review is interesting. KATZ talks about how he could see differences from 8 and 10 ft, but then goes on the rant about the charts and how you need to sit super close to see the difference. Seems to be a contradiction of actual experience and those stupid charts but he refuses to acknowledge the charts are not 100% accurate.


https://www.cnet.com/google-amp/revi...mpression=true
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
CNET review is interesting. KATZ talks about how he could see differences from 8 and 10 ft, but then goes on the rant about the charts and how you need to sit super close to see the difference. Seems to be a contradiction of actual experience and those stupid charts but he refuses to acknowledge the charts are not 100% accurate.


https://www.cnet.com/google-amp/revi...mpression=true
Oh... I stepped back and forth and measured, I can see differences out to between 12 or 13 feet from the screen, depending on content. I still have a bit better than 20/20 vision with no glasses, so I tend to be able to read fine text a bit further than my peers, so of course the exact spot where you stop seeing detail is going to depend a lot on that.

Other times, I believe content-dependent, there was no difference to see at 10 feet. It definitely varies, with grass and foliage often showing a difference more easily than other textures.
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post #263 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I would imagine maybe Steves measurements are from a different sample being that hes in the UK unless he had to fly to the states for this.
I just got an answer. It was a different demo unit in the UK.

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post #264 of 469 Old 10-10-2018, 04:00 PM
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Plus we must remember, as we age, do we have to sit closer to make up for ongoing eye deficiencies? (Or further, so it doesn't look blurry?)

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post #265 of 469 Old 10-11-2018, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by egrady View Post
I found this review comprehensive and objective. But my interest in this set just went to zero.


There is simply no substitute for a large number of dimming zones. They didn't even increase the number to keep the ratio the same as the 75Q9FN. Their solution to address the black crush, of the Q9, is to raise the black level? Blooming into scope bars? Hocus, pocus to cheap out on dimming zones simply doesn't work for me.
The CNET review (which is somewhat critical in general) says "the Q900 seemed to handle near-dark areas with less crushing and better detail than the Q9" and HD-Guru states that "black levels were lower with less detail crushing than the Q9FN produced".
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Originally Posted by egrady View Post
I found this review comprehensive and objective. But my interest in this set just went to zero.


There is simply no substitute for a large number of dimming zones. They didn't even increase the number to keep the ratio the same as the 75Q9FN. Their solution to address the black crush, of the Q9, is to raise the black level? Blooming into scope bars? Hocus, pocus to cheap out on dimming zones simply doesn't work for me.
Also from HD-Guru: "Furthermore, Samsung has eliminated any sign of blooming around bright objects into bordering letter box frames, which proved to be a distraction in earlier model years, and is present on Sony’s top-of-the-line Z9F series."

Do not be so fast to dismiss it, before you see for yourself
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post #267 of 469 Old 10-11-2018, 01:59 AM
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The review by What Hi-fi is interesting too. Very in depth review here.

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/samsung-qe85q900r


They definitely knock it for issues with blacks. But keep in mind the smaller sizes in Europe will have better blacks and be sharper as well.
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post #268 of 469 Old 10-11-2018, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
The review by What Hi-fi is interesting too. Very in depth review here.

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/samsung-qe85q900r


They definitely knock it for issues with blacks. But keep in mind the smaller sizes in Europe will have better blacks and be sharper as well.
Better blacks because of what? If the FALD array is the same, then what difference could there be? I saw the 75" and 85" Q900s side by side at CEDIA and they looked practically identical, aside from the difference in actual size.

Also, sharper in what real-world sense, given so many people are complaining you cannot reasonably get close enough to a TV like this to see the full benefit of 8K?

Plus... with 8K displays, 99.999% of the time the content is going to be the limiting factor when it comes to sharpness and resolution, not the TV.

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post #269 of 469 Old 10-11-2018, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
The review by What Hi-fi is interesting too. Very in depth review here.

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/samsung-qe85q900r


They definitely knock it for issues with blacks. But keep in mind the smaller sizes in Europe will have better blacks and be sharper as well.
At the end discussing the 65" Q900R they say "That would make it the best TV you can currently buy" which is an interesting comment.

I wonder what feature Samsung will roll out in 2019 for the rest of its premium lineup in the U.S.?

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post #270 of 469 Old 10-11-2018, 10:32 AM
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Better blacks because of what? If the FALD array is the same, then what difference could there be? I saw the 75" and 85" Q900s side by side at CEDIA and they looked practically identical, aside from the difference in actual size.

Also, sharper in what real-world sense, given so many people are complaining you cannot reasonably get close enough to a TV like this to see the full benefit of 8K?

Plus... with 8K displays, 99.999% of the time the content is going to be the limiting factor when it comes to sharpness and resolution, not the TV.

I had the 75Q9FN and 65q9fn side by side at my house, lights off, playing the exact same content, and there was a noticeable difference in the control of bloom, both in regular content and also widescreen bar performance. (but both crush my ks9800 most of the time in both aspects) The 65Q900r will definitely have better control than the 85", but not in the USA (yet). They all have the se 480 zones, which is on the disappointing side. (the 55" tho has 320).

As for sharpness, I just mean that going smaller always gets you an increase in sharpness, compared to larger sizes. But the larger sizes I see now reveal more texture detail.
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