2018 Sony XBR-900F owners settings thread - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
I'm trying to help since I've calibrated many 900F's and never had these issues or seen calibration results like yours.

So calibrating with local dimming off is how Sony designed the set to get the best possible outcome. When you use Calman Autocal which uses parameters from Sony, Local Dimming is turned off for the calibration then turned back on after it's done. I'm guessing the reason why you see issues calibrating like this is because something is not right with your setup. Post the 2pt with Local Dimming off and let's see what you come up with and maybe figure out what's going on. You are on the right track. In order to fix black crush, which you shouldn't be getting much on an LCD, you need to get the gamma set properly.



Sony does calculate the HDR parameters from the SDR calibration and it works perfectly.

I'll post some scans later to show that it does work.



Also I know Calman is not free but Sony is releasing new firmware which will allow you to use Autocal. Autocal will calibrate the set automatically and you can not only see what it's doing but also manually tweak the settings after it's done.

@jrref Pleasee can you confirm if autocal with Calman is now available on the 900F with the new Oreo update?


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post #152 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by thisisgroot View Post
Can anyone tell me how this TV stacks up against the XBR 65x900a?

This F series does have HDR and now Dolby Vision?


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The X900F does have HDR10 and Dolby Vision

For general question the Owners thread will better serve you.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...rice-talk.html

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post #153 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samorist View Post
@jrref Pleasee can you confirm if autocal with Calman is now available on the 900F with the new Oreo update?


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You can use the firmware update for the A1E since it has the 900F firmware in the package. We are not sure why Sony hasn't officially released it but they still may be testing so you do this at your own risk but so far no one has had a problem. I suggest after installing, do a factory reset to clear any of your old settings.

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post #154 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by rafffster View Post
John, do you think you could post an example of what you would consider a conservative 2 point adjustment for the 900f? I like some of the characteristics of Paul's calibration, but I do think that the change is a bit extreme and darkens the panel and colors too much for my liking.

--
Kevan
You can adjust the Gain +-7 but the Bias shouldn't need an adjustment more than +-3 unless your panel is out of spec which sometimes happens.
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post #155 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 01:00 PM
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Did a quick run of Calman autocal on the 85X900F using the Bravia workflow I updated my TV to the new Oreo firmware. The Calman disables local dimming during the calibration process but I set local dimming to high after the autocal was completed. The attached post calibration image is after local dimming was enabled and set to high.

Auto cal on the 900F is limited to only luminance and greyscale calibration as CMS calibration is not included.
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post #156 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 02:18 PM
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Do I need a color meter of some sort to run Calman autocal?
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post #157 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
You can adjust the Gain +-7 but the Bias shouldn't need an adjustment more than +-3 unless your panel is out of spec which sometimes happens.
Not sure how your X900F allows a + adjustment of gain from stock, as stock RGB Gain settings on my X900F are all at MAX?

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Originally Posted by samorist View Post
Did a quick run of Calman autocal on the 85X900F using the Bravia workflow I updated my TV to the new Oreo firmware. The Calman disables local dimming during the calibration process but I set local dimming to high after the autocal was completed. The attached post calibration image is after local dimming was enabled and set to high.

Auto cal on the 900F is limited to only luminance and greyscale calibration as CMS calibration is not included.
The PREcalibration looks about right, same as I was getting. Your POSTcalibration seems a bit...um...not very good. 0.6dE...eek. I do stand by my claim that the BLUE on this TV is the worst offender, with elevated green as well, as you can see from his CalMan graphs. Want to see my Custom/Warm stock HCFR screen? This is what the stock WARM setting looks like on the X900F.
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post #158 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
Not sure how your X900F allows a + adjustment of gain from stock, as stock RGB Gain settings on my X900F are all at MAX?
Typo, meant up to -7 on the gain. Again these are not exact but the point is if you are making very large adjustments to the 2pt, then your set is out of spec or something in the calibration setup is not correct.

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post #159 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
Typo, meant up to -7 on the gain. Again these are not exact but the point is if you are making very large adjustments to the 2pt, then your set is out of spec or something in the calibration setup is not correct.
I used to do 10 point only with local dimming off, but switched to doing a 2 point first because I had some issues where the 10% (especially blue) was still up at 120% with B offset set to MIN in 10% point. Also, thought the 2 point would be a better general setting to share as its much simpler. I adjusted my 2 point to get 10 and 100 on track for further 10 point calibration. You can't get a flat gamma with 2 point, so I am not sure exactly what would be the "correct" or "most proper" 2 point gamma curve to shoot for. Again, I was setting 2 point to prep my TV for 10 point and aid in point 1 and 10 alignment.

Paul
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post #160 of 797 Old 01-23-2019, 08:44 PM
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THESE ARE OLDER SETTINGS, PLEASE SEE POST BELOW FOR UPDATED SETTINGS


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552


After multiple "customer complaints" about yellow or red whites, I purchased a brand new i1Display Pro meter.
Turns out my old meter was a bit off on color temperature, so it was profiling a bit warm. The black level, gamma tracking, etc were all matching the new meter, just the final color temp line was evenly off around 6000k instead of D65 6500k.

So, here is a new set of 2 point calibrations to take out the extra warmth of the old meter. Just add these in place of the 2 point figures in the quote below. These should get you by until a new calibration can be done this weekend wit the new meter. These 2 points + the old 10 points will get you 6500k and around 0.30dE white balance, assuming no major panel variations.

New Temp 2 Point to add to old 10 point below (in the self quote)

R-Gain -1
G-Gain -5
B-Gain -4
R-Bias -12
G-Bias -10
B-Bias -17

Contact me if you want to buy my old meter :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
OK, spent all of yesterday trying hard to get the most perfect gamma as possible, only to discover 8 hours in that my i1D3 meter has a serious issue with measurement color drift after being stuck to a TV for 8 hours! Long story short, the hours of calibrating were only good for training, and I redid them this morning, and the results are below. Final result was calibrated to 120ish cd/m at brightness 6, contrast MAX, with local dimming set to high. Resulting black level was 0.034cd/m, contrast around 3400:1, 2.2 flat gamma, remarkable 0.16dE average white balance error, with a 0.99dE for color checker dE. The point of this new calibration was to go beyond just getting a good white dE and 2.2 gamma, and to optimize the calibration for maximum possible brightness, which is why you see the weakest color gain left at Max, and the other brought down to match it, instead of just randomly bringing everything up and down.

Due to panel variances, you may or may not have an issue with strange color tint. Some have noticed a reddish hue to their TV after adding settings. The quick and dirty freestyle method to tweak those, is to adjust the 2 point GAIN color down or up until the offending hue goes away. Gain is color brightness, bias is color shadows...the 0% to 100% bias up to gain is your gamma...the lower the bias in relation to the gain, the larger the gamma value number will become. For ever 2 steps of gain you reduce, it will require maybe 1 step of the same color of bias to be removed as well. This calibration and gamma curve was achieved with local dimming on and contrast to maximum. There is no white clipping, and turning local dimming off with these settings will result in low range shadow gamma oddities, and maybe some crushed blacks. See HCFR screen grab below.

I am still working on the new APPS calibration. You can use the HDMI version for APPS, although not optimized, should still be workable. The biggest difference between HDMI and APPS calibrations is that HDMI on APPS will result in increased shadow gamma, meaning the shadows will fall below the highlights in luminance and color volume, typically referred to as crushed blacks.

Expert 1 HDMI

Brightness 6 for 120cd/m
Contrast Max
Local Dimming High
X-tended Dynamic Range OFF

2 Point
R-Gain Max
G-Gain -6
B-Gain -7
R-Bias -14
G-Bias -11
B-Bias -18

10 Point
Point 1 -3 -2 -1
Point 2 -1 -1 -2
Point 3 -5 -3 -5
Point 4 -2 -1 -4
Point 5 -2 -1 -2
Point 6 -5 -4 -2
Point 7 -1 1 -2
Point 8 -5 -4 -3
Point 9 0 1 -4
Point 10 0 0 0

For those of you who have never had your TV calibrated, i am sure others who have will agree that the cost of the meter ($200) can and will increase the picture quality more than if you spent that money on a TV costing the same amount more as the meter itself. A proper calibration can make your Sony look like a completely different TV, and will absolutely put more expensive TV's with standard settings to shame.
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post #161 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
?







The PREcalibration looks about right, same as I was getting. Your POSTcalibration seems a bit...um...not very good. 0.6dE...eek..


? 0.6 avg is fine. Anything below 3 is imperceptible to the eye, anything below 1 is reference
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post #162 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jds22 View Post
Do I need a color meter of some sort to run Calman autocal?


Yes, you will need a colorimeter or spectroradiometer to read your patterns so Calman can adjust the TV grayscale accordingly. I use the i3 display pro.

Here’s a link to detailed instructions for completing auto calibration on a Sony TV.

http://sonyglobal.akamaized.net/is/c...AN-updated.pdf
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post #163 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
I used to do 10 point only with local dimming off, but switched to doing a 2 point first because I had some issues where the 10% (especially blue) was still up at 120% with B offset set to MIN in 10% point. Also, thought the 2 point would be a better general setting to share as its much simpler. I adjusted my 2 point to get 10 and 100 on track for further 10 point calibration. You can't get a flat gamma with 2 point, so I am not sure exactly what would be the "correct" or "most proper" 2 point gamma curve to shoot for. Again, I was setting 2 point to prep my TV for 10 point and aid in point 1 and 10 alignment.



Paul


I completed the 2pt calibration on my 85x900F on the previous firmware and the gamma tracking was very good even without the 10pt calibration. Gamma setting at 0 and -2 tracked well with 2.2 and 2.4 respectively to a very good degree.


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post #164 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samorist View Post
Yes, you will need a colorimeter or spectroradiometer to read your patterns so Calman can adjust the TV grayscale accordingly. I use the i3 display pro.

Here’s a link to detailed instructions for completing auto calibration on a Sony TV.

http://sonyglobal.akamaized.net/is/c...AN-updated.pdf

Thank you.
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post #165 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 06:08 AM
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New HCFR calibrations LD off January 24 2019

THESE ARE OLDER SETTINGS, PLEASE SEE POST BELOW FOR UPDATED SETTINGS


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post57551552

I can get 0.6dE with some work on just the 2 point. :-\

I redid my HDMI and APPS calibrations using the procedure jrref specified, being to leave local dimming OFF during calibration. I also used a brand new meter, as previously mentioned, my old meter had drifted a bit in color temperature, resulting in the too warm image people complained about.

New HDMI LD off

2 Point
R-Gain -1
G-Gain -5
B-Gain -4
R-Bias -12
G-Bias -10
B-Bias -17

10 Point
Point 1 -3 -3 0
Point 2 -2 -2 -4
Point 3 -5 -3 -5
Point 4 -2 -2 -4
Point 5 -3 -3 -4
Point 6 -4 -3 -4
Point 7 -3 -2 -3
Point 8 -2 -1 -3
Point 9 -1 0 -2
Point 10 0 0 -1

New APPS LD off

2 Point
R-Gain Max
G-Gain -4
B-Gain -4
R-Bias -11
G-Bias -9
B-Bias -15

10 Point
Point 1 2 2 4
Point 2 -4 -4 -3
Point 3 -4 -3 -3
Point 4 -3 -2 -4
Point 5 --4 -3 -3
Point 6 --3 -3 -1
Point 7 -2 -1 -2
Point 8 -3 -2 -2
Point 9 0 1 -2
Point 10 0 0 1

Below are the APPS calibration 0.19dE with local dimming turned OFF, and a second image of what happens to that calibration when you turn local dimming ON after calibrating with it off. Jrref seems to think this is how you do it, so I have provided the LD off calibrations for those that subscribe to that method being more accurate. Please look at both images and decide for yourself if you agree.

Paul
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post #166 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 06:14 AM
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Do you know if the app requires a paid license key from Calman company, or is this just a new feature Sony is giving us for free?

Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by samorist View Post
Yes, you will need a colorimeter or spectroradiometer to read your patterns so Calman can adjust the TV grayscale accordingly. I use the i3 display pro.

Here’s a link to detailed instructions for completing auto calibration on a Sony TV.

http://sonyglobal.akamaized.net/is/c...AN-updated.pdf
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post #167 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 06:47 AM
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In order to use CM Autocal you need to buy the Enthusiast license and the app is free. Just go to the Google play store and search and down load Calman Bravia App.

Your scans with LD off look a lot better than with it on. But I still don't understand why you need to adjust your 2 pt Bias so much.

After calibrating a lot of Sony's, every once in a while I'll run into a set that's out of spec, meaning it's not defective but for whatever reason you need to increase the Bias to get more range when doing the 10 or 20 pt. In your case it seems you need to do the opposite to calibrate properly. Your 10 pt looks fine.

That said, there is nothing wrong with your set But you can't use your settings on any other panel because other panels won't be out of spec like yours is and won't need that large Bias adjustment.

Again, your set is not defective and I've seen this from time to time. Your 2 pt Gain adjustments look "typical" so i'm pretty sure this is what's going on in your case.

When you try to use Autocal, it' won't do a 2 pt adjustment but will only do a 10 pt but because your set is atypical, you might need to manually do a 2pt then let Autocal do the 10. If you have the time it's always better to do a quick 2pt then let Autocal run so it has to do less work and make smaller 10 pt adjustments.

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post #168 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 07:16 AM
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That was my point, when you switch LD ON, it does that to the gamma and white balance. To be clear here, the LD ON sweep was simple turning LD on using the LD off calibrations, not a separate attempt to calibrate with LD on. If I calibrate with LD ON and then turn it off, the exact same issue presents itself. This is why I am stubbornly calibrating for how I actually will have the settings configured while watching the TV. When you activate LD, it messes with the WB and gamma, noticeable depending on your tune, to the point you can see the whites or grey change hue with the naked eye.

As for my Bias, I just pulled them down until I saw the best dE and gamma. I could have left them high, but my panel would require a lot of MIN out of the 10% to deal with them. I figured it would make the most sense to start with a baseline 2 point that could be used on it's own if need be.

And when I heard Play Store, I was hoping it was a free service Sony had added, like adding Dolby Vision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrref View Post
In order to use CM Autocal you need to buy the Enthusiast license and the app is free. Just go to the Google play store and search and down load Calman Bravia App.

Your scans with LD off look a lot better than with it on. But I still don't understand why you need to adjust your 2 pt Bias so much.

After calibrating a lot of Sony's, every once in a while I'll run into a set that's out of spec, meaning it's not defective but for whatever reason you need to increase the Bias to get more range when doing the 10 or 20 pt. In your case it seems you need to do the opposite to calibrate properly. Your 10 pt looks fine.

That said, there is nothing wrong with your set But you can't use your settings on any other panel because other panels won't be out of spec like yours is and won't need that large Bias adjustment.

Again, your set is not defective and I've seen this from time to time. Your 2 pt Gain adjustments look "typical" so i'm pretty sure this is what's going on in your case.

When you try to use Autocal, it' won't do a 2 pt adjustment but will only do a 10 pt but because your set is atypical, you might need to manually do a 2pt then let Autocal do the 10. If you have the time it's always better to do a quick 2pt then let Autocal run so it has to do less work and make smaller 10 pt adjustments.
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post #169 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 07:18 AM
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I considered buying a meter then realized since I don’t own a laptop it would probably be a major pain.
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post #170 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post

As for my Bias, I just pulled them down until I saw the best dE and gamma. I could have left them high, but my panel would require a lot of MIN out of the 10% to deal with them. I figured it would make the most sense to start with a baseline 2 point that could be used on it's own if need be.
Exactly which is why your panel needs that larger Bias adjustment to compensate and give you more range. Most other panels won't need that.

A final comment on LD. LD is a dynamic process where the set constantly adjusts depending on the content. Even though your are trying to calibrate the way you watch the set, you can't because you can't calibrate to something that's constantly changing. This is why Sony says to calibrate with LD OFF and then when you put it ON it makes the compensation.

I understand you are trying things to work around black crush, etc... but you shouldn't have these issues or they shouldn't be a huge problem with a properly calibrated set where the gamma is set correctly. Anything else you try to work around that usually has other consequences. I know this from my own and other professional's experience.
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post #171 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 07:46 AM
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Hi all,

Just received a 65 900F and immediately noticed a pretty bad vertical band about a foot off center.
I don't notice it when watching most things but as soon as there is a light colored scene then it's obvious.
Not really sure if its a vertical band too. It's as if everything to the right of the line is slightly lighter.
Debating on returning or just living with it. I'm inclined to return but just wanted to see if anyone
has this issue. Searched through the forum and I didn't see many mentions of any issues like this.
See pics attached.

Thanks!
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post #172 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 08:08 AM
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Try the X900F owners thread, this is the X900F picture settings thread.

Sounds like your seeing a more dimly lit local dimming zone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pared3s View Post
Hi all,

Just received a 65 900F and immediately noticed a pretty bad vertical band about a foot off center.
I don't notice it when watching most things but as soon as there is a light colored scene then it's obvious.
Not really sure if its a vertical band too. It's as if everything to the right of the line is slightly lighter.
Debating on returning or just living with it. I'm inclined to return but just wanted to see if anyone
has this issue. Searched through the forum and I didn't see many mentions of any issues like this.
See pics attached.

Thanks!
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post #173 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Anderegg View Post
Try the X900F owners thread, this is the X900F picture settings thread.



Sounds like your seeing a more dimly lit local dimming zone?


Sorry about that! Just noticed after I posted. How do I delete this?
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post #174 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 09:18 AM
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Paul,

I think John is correct in that your panel is slightly off, I went over to a buddy's house last night to help him setup his NEW 65" X900F and stuck around while he did a 2pt cal with his i1Display Pro. His Gain was really close to what you got, but his Bias was much lower. I didn't stay while he did a 10pt since it was getting late, but I'm willing to bet it's super close to your 10pt.

His 2pt cal with LD off

R-Gain Max
G-Gain -6
B-Gain -3
R-Bias -2
G-Bias -3
B-Bias -1




Glad to see you found out you had a funky meter and got it replaced. Look forward to trying your APPS settings tonight!


@jrref

You should get a horse into this race...lol
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post #175 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CaptinCrunch View Post
Paul,

I think John is correct in that your panel is slightly off, I went over to a buddy's house last night to help him setup his NEW 65" X900F and stuck around while he did a 2pt cal with his i1Display Pro. His Gain was really close to what you got, but his Bias was much lower. I didn't stay while he did a 10pt since it was getting late, but I'm willing to bet it's super close to your 10pt.

His 2pt cal with LD off

R-Gain Max
G-Gain -6
B-Gain -3
R-Bias -2
G-Bias -3
B-Bias -1




Glad to see you found out you had a funky meter and got it replaced. Look forward to trying your APPS settings tonight!


@jrref

You should get a horse into this race...lol
These are typical 2pt adjustments for this set

John
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post #176 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pared3s View Post
Hi all,

Just received a 65 900F and immediately noticed a pretty bad vertical band about a foot off center.
I don't notice it when watching most things but as soon as there is a light colored scene then it's obvious.
Not really sure if its a vertical band too. It's as if everything to the right of the line is slightly lighter.
Debating on returning or just living with it. I'm inclined to return but just wanted to see if anyone
has this issue. Searched through the forum and I didn't see many mentions of any issues like this.
See pics attached.

Thanks!
No Good return the set for another
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Sony 55A1E, A9F / LG 55OLEDC8
Marantz 7012, Ohm Walsh Speakers
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post #177 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 11:46 AM
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I considered buying a meter then realized since I don’t own a laptop it would probably be a major pain.
Same issue for me. I am a all Apple guy with an iMac, iPad and iPhone, but no laptop of any kind.
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post #178 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 11:51 AM
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I tried out the rtings settings the other day and there was a serious Red push that i saw, i am going to give these settings a try tonight but has anyone else noticed a much stronger red than other colors on the rtings settings?
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post #179 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bigjohns1997SS View Post
I tried out the rtings settings the other day and there was a serious Red push that i saw, i am going to give these settings a try tonight but has anyone else noticed a much stronger red than other colors on the rtings settings?
#panelvariation

Captin, can you forward me his 2 and 10 point calibrations after he is finished? Let me pop them into my TV and see what I get for gamma and WB, see how far my set is off from the norm. Also, will you be borrowing your buddy's i1D3 to calibrate your set?

I think a separate APPS calibration is also a good idea. You can see that although my Bias is a bit lower, the general settings between HDMI and APPS needed a different enough calibration to make it worthwhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptinCrunch View Post
Paul,

I think John is correct in that your panel is slightly off, I went over to a buddy's house last night to help him setup his NEW 65" X900F and stuck around while he did a 2pt cal with his i1Display Pro. His Gain was really close to what you got, but his Bias was much lower. I didn't stay while he did a 10pt since it was getting late, but I'm willing to bet it's super close to your 10pt.

His 2pt cal with LD off

R-Gain Max
G-Gain -6
B-Gain -3
R-Bias -2
G-Bias -3
B-Bias -1




Glad to see you found out you had a funky meter and got it replaced. Look forward to trying your APPS settings tonight!


@jrref

You should get a horse into this race...lol
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post #180 of 797 Old 01-24-2019, 01:40 PM
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FYI, for those not aware, the white balance settings other than Expert 1 and Expert 2, such as warm, can be custom 10 point altered. I am thinking of messing around with making Warm into BT1886 to see what all the fuss is about. The Netflix white paper here has content providers calibrating to BT1886. I would assume if the Netflix shows are created (edited/color corrected/finished) in BT1886, then they might look best viewed in the same BT1886. I could also presume I am just going calibration crazy because I spent more money on a new meter. :-)

https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.c...Best-Practices

https://hometheaterreview.com/why-yo...r-hdtv/?page=2

https://referencehometheater.com/201...gamma-correct/

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...ed-blacks.html

https://referencehometheater.com/201...uality-review/

Paul
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Last edited by Anderegg; 01-24-2019 at 02:35 PM.
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