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post #361 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
No offence taken

Playing online with the lag that comes with it is often part of the game desing to larger extent. Minzing any extra lag is however desireable. Going with a monitor is the natural choise but I want a big display with as low input lag as possible.

Avarage human reaction time is give or take 1/4 of a second or 250 ms, one frame at 60 fps is 16.7 ms, so adding another 10 ms ontop of ZF9 21 ms sholdn't make a difference right, or lets say 32 ms (two frames of lag), that should make a difference... But it does, for instance, VR head sets should have a maximum 8 ms of lag from user input when moving the head till the screen updates but idealy 5 ms is the best based on research. Even one frame of input lag is slightly noticable when moving between a 1ms monitor and then try to do the same figting game comobs with 21 ms of lag. Also characters feel ever so slightly heavier to move around as well. 21 ms is at the limit of acceptable in my opinion.

Sony has long been really bad at achieving low input lag while Samsung and LG crushes them with lag numbers around 13-16 ms of lag. Also Sony owns Playstation so one owuld think there'd be some reasons to try and angle their own brand of TVs as capable of smooth resposive gaming. So now that ZF9 and XG950 has proven pretty good input lag number with the new X1 Ultimate chip set there really is no excuse for regressing on these number. Input lag is the first and absolutly most important aspect of any TV I buy, if it's not below 21ms it's a no go regadless of how awesome it is in all other areas.
I'll at least concede that, yes, for Sony's top of the line LCD offering, it shouldn't digress from prior models. If the input lag really is 30ms, that is a 50% increase from the Z9F. However, I bet the increase is due almost solely to the fact that it's an 8K set and so it has to render that much more.

But obviously, Sony doesn't really look at their previous offerings as a baseline, but rather the current market trends and competition. Sucks for us consumers, but that's how Sony is going to maximize profits.

Pointing to the quoted post below...
There are so many enthusiasts here that have and love the Z9D, but how many of them do you think actually bought the Z9D at it's debut price? It dropped from like $6000 to $2000 while it was out. In order to make worthwhile profit margins on high-end offerings, and to mitigate the risk of even venturing into the market of high-end products, luxury items must be sold at very high prices. The additional profit is needed to make that risk worth while. If Sony makes the same profit off of a Z9D that they do for an X900, that's a big problem for Sony. With the new Z9G, they're not going to ditch 8K for a better BMD because a better BMD just doesn't SELL like 8K does. Who has 13 grand for a TV and buys it? Mostly hot-shots that care more about impressing their friends than wise people like us who actually value certain tech, understand what we are doing, and then wait for early adopters to finish so that prices can come down to semi-reasonable levels. I repeat, Sony isn't designing their Master Series sets for us, even if the marketing makes it seem that way. In my opinion, they're designing and marketing them these days to people with more money than sense. Finally, let's be real. For most people... 8K (vs 4K), and the difference in blooming and contrast between a Z9D and Z9F, etc... these are tiny details that just don't matter. But at least 8K is a bragging right that can easily be touted.. so it's more beneficial for Sony to include that than a better BMD. I am just as annoyed as you are that companies like Sony claim to be all about "reproducing the creators intent" but then they go slap pointless 8K on a set instead of better light control... yeah OK Sony, we all know who really runs things over there (the marketing department). Klipsch is the same way.. "Keepers of the Sound" but then they release inferior products and fudge their specs. It is what it is. Companies, profits, marketing. Us actual knowledgeable enthusiasts just have to hope, and then rejoice, when we get lucky and something like the Z9D happens.

All this said, though, I'm sure the Z9G will be awesome in its own right, and will have its place in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by egrady View Post
The black levels, contrast and blooming of the 85Z9G kills it for me. It's almost as if LCD has conceded these core issues to OLED and focused on light output instead. In a way I can understand it as it gives consumers options depending on their viewing environment and image priorities.

Still, I'm disappointed because I wanted a screen larger than 77". While current LCD technology can't equal the strengths of OLED I would have preferred that Sony used the Z9D as a baseline for the Z9G. That is, contrast/blooming/black levels no worse than that. If that meant the additional cost of more zones, then ditch the cost of 8k. And ditch the wider viewing angle until its adverse side effects can be eliminated.
To the bold comment... ding ding ding!
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post #362 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 10:44 AM
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It is not the black levels/contrast that make me hesitant about this set. It is the lack of 8K support that bothers me the most.

It seems like HDMI 4 is somehow low bandwidth 2.1, 40 vs 48 Gb/s. To make matters worse they do not seem to have an internal 8k decoder. If they had the ability to do 8k youtube or USB decoding it would give me more confidence. Internal apps are probably going to be the only real way to get 8k for a while. I could see some streaming content if the olympics are going to be shot in 8k being available streaming vs external sources in the near future.

Instead Sony seems to have had to rig up an 8k external player and send it compressed into the TV for the reviewers.
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post #363 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mike123abc View Post
It seems like HDMI 4 is somehow low bandwidth 2.1, 40 vs 48 Gb/s. To make matters worse they do not seem to have an internal 8k decoder.
I remember reading/hearing that it will be 48Gb after a firmware update but they are waiting on validation (or something to that effect). It may have been in Vincent's video.

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post #364 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mike123abc View Post
It is not the black levels/contrast that make me hesitant about this set. It is the lack of 8K support that bothers me the most.

It seems like HDMI 4 is somehow low bandwidth 2.1, 40 vs 48 Gb/s. To make matters worse they do not seem to have an internal 8k decoder. If they had the ability to do 8k youtube or USB decoding it would give me more confidence. Internal apps are probably going to be the only real way to get 8k for a while. I could see some streaming content if the olympics are going to be shot in 8k being available streaming vs external sources in the near future.

Instead Sony seems to have had to rig up an 8k external player and send it compressed into the TV for the reviewers.
Honestly, THAT is what you're actually worrying about regarding this set?!!

With all due respect, what do you actually expect out of all this 8K nonsense except maybe the slight possibilty of the Olympics being streamed in 8K in the west sometime 2030? And Youtube 8K or any streaming service in 8K? Seriously, what are your expectations regarding that? 8K in itself and all the things you mentioned (including HDMI 2.1 support) are at the bottom of my "to worry about" list.

Don't get me wrong, this is NOT a personal attack on you, but it cracks me up seeing people hold so much value/faith in 8K and/or HDMI 2.1 when most of its features basically means very little next to nothing in the foreseeable future. And even then perhaps they never will hold actual value...
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post #365 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike123abc View Post
It is not the black levels/contrast that make me hesitant about this set. It is the lack of 8K support that bothers me the most.

It seems like HDMI 4 is somehow low bandwidth 2.1, 40 vs 48 Gb/s. To make matters worse they do not seem to have an internal 8k decoder. If they had the ability to do 8k youtube or USB decoding it would give me more confidence. Internal apps are probably going to be the only real way to get 8k for a while. I could see some streaming content if the olympics are going to be shot in 8k being available streaming vs external sources in the near future.

Instead Sony seems to have had to rig up an 8k external player and send it compressed into the TV for the reviewers.
Don't buy any current gen TV for 8K, do it of other features and just think of it as just accidentally having 8K. If you really want it for 8K my advice is to wait at least till next years models that will most probably have full HDMI 2.1 spec. Then you should be able to get [email protected] HDR.

There will be a long time untill 8K will be readily available and for gaming it's a prohibitively expensive resolution to render as we only recently started to be able to render [email protected] games with high graphic settings on the RTX2080. You would need 4x RTX2080 to do decent 8K that equals nearly $4000. Getting to a point where we can actually play games at 8K will take at least 2 years IMHO.

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post #366 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p3trol_h3ad View Post

Pointing to the quoted post below...
There are so many enthusiasts here that have and love the Z9D, but how many of them do you think actually bought the Z9D at it's debut price? It dropped from like $6000 to $2000 while it was out. In order to make worthwhile profit margins on high-end offerings, and to mitigate the risk of even venturing into the market of high-end products, luxury items must be sold at very high prices. The additional profit is needed to make that risk worth while. If Sony makes the same profit off of a Z9D that they do for an X900, that's a big problem for Sony. With the new Z9G, they're not going to ditch 8K for a better BMD because a better BMD just doesn't SELL like 8K does. Who has 13 grand for a TV and buys it? Mostly hot-shots that care more about impressing their friends than wise people like us who actually value certain tech, understand what we are doing, and then wait for early adopters to finish so that prices can come down to semi-reasonable levels. I repeat, Sony isn't designing their Master Series sets for us, even if the marketing makes it seem that way. In my opinion, they're designing and marketing them these days to people with more money than sense. Finally, let's be real. For most people... 8K (vs 4K), and the difference in blooming and contrast between a Z9D and Z9F, etc... these are tiny details that just don't matter. But at least 8K is a bragging right that can easily be touted.. so it's more beneficial for Sony to include that than a better BMD. I am just as annoyed as you are that companies like Sony claim to be all about "reproducing the creators intent" but then they go slap pointless 8K on a set instead of better light control... yeah OK Sony, we all know who really runs things over there (the marketing department). Klipsch is the same way.. "Keepers of the Sound" but then they release inferior products and fudge their specs. It is what it is. Companies, profits, marketing. Us actual knowledgeable enthusiasts just have to hope, and then rejoice, when we get lucky and something like the Z9D happens.

All this said, though, I'm sure the Z9G will be awesome in its own right, and will have its place in the world.
I'm sure sports bars and the like will love the Z9G. Big and flashy has always been more impressive in the showroom so I guess we're stuck with it. I never considered that there are far more potential customers, with 13k to blow on a set, that want what Sony is giving than what enthusiasts like us are looking for.

Your comments are very astute.
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post #367 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JoelArt View Post
Don't buy any current gen TV for 8K, do it of other features and just think of it as just accidentally having 8K. If you really want it for 8K my advice is to wait at least till next years models that will most probably have full HDMI 2.1 spec. Then you should be able to get [email protected] HDR.
Perfect advise, it will be a while before we start seeing movies filmed in 8K, transferred in 8K, and then of course displayed in 8K.
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post #368 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 03:05 PM
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Clearing Up 8K Nonsense

All the noise about lack of 8K content or 8K as a gimmick betrays ignorance about 8K and why the Z9G has it. Sure, when 8K content is available, the viewing experience will be like looking though a window instead of at a screen. Meanwhile, 8K is not a luxury but a necessity for panels that approach wall size. Consumers want screens that cover more field-of-view, for a more theatrical experience. When you enlarge screen size but not pixel density, you degrade image quality from the same distance. An 85" screen in a living room needs 8K. But 8K alone is not there yet. Until now no processor has been powerful enough to move all those pixels over all that real estate while maintaining IQ. Now Sony has one—the X1-Ultimate. Sony motion handling has always been superior, and with the X1-ultimate, it will remain so in 8K. By the way, I see the 85"+ panels as harbingers of the demise of home theater projection TVs.

Also, Sony has superior up-scaling algorithms, so SD, HD and UHD content will look better—not just blown up—in 8K than in their native displays. Combine that with Sony's almost 100% color gamut and spot-on color accuracy out of the box, and.... Oh yeah, in HDR the Z9G reaches 4000 nits, which is the Dolby DV benchmark. No other consumer TV does that. As for the price, yes, the 98" pricing is over the top, though some people will pay far more for a loudspeaker. But $13K for the 85". Compared to $20K launch price for the 77" OLED, that's darn reasonable!

Speaking of OLED, the Z9G blacks are fine for me. In fact they're more honest than Samsung QLED blacks, which suppress shadow detail to eliminate blooming. Yes, in a pitch-dark room, you will get slight blooming in Sony blacks, but Sony's philosophy is to give you all the picture, including shadow and white detail. OLED blacks are honest, but I use my TV as my PC monitor—static content all the time, so OLED is out.

So, enough wrongheaded quibbling about 8K! 4K has been just a transition. 8K is the end point. If they pull 16K, then we can talk gimmick. For those who know Sony quality, the Z9G should be the last TV they'll ever own. It will be for me.
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post #369 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 03:24 PM
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I can only imagine how good Aquaman looks on this set! This and any movies that actually have 4000 nit scenes in them. Not just the movies mastered at 4000 nits...
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post #370 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 03:30 PM
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I can only imagine how good Aquaman looks on this set!
You should see it on a 75z9f!

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post #371 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 03:43 PM
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^so the Z9F can do 4000?
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post #372 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 03:51 PM
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I agree that the 8K function is a lil bit irrelevant here. I would buy the set for the HDR performance alone cause with right content and the size 4K would still look pretty sick! I wonder if you can turn the upscaling off if certain content does not benefit from it I never botherd to check if my A9f can be turned down? Anyway it’s first generation like when 4K tv came out the first year didn’t it take 3-4 years to get any 4K content?

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post #373 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post
So, according to the review at flatpanelshd.com the Backlight Master Drive used on this set is a different implementation from the original one used in the Z9D.

The Backlight Master Drive of the Z9D allows for individual control of each LED whereas the one used on the Z9G only allows for segment dimming, or blocks of LED.

Hmm....
75" vs 85" both around 700 zones and one is twice as bright as the other, seems only logical there are more leds per zone .
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post #374 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 04:21 PM
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^so the Z9F can do 4000?
I never said that and it was a joke.

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post #375 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 06:18 PM
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All the noise about lack of 8K content or 8K as a gimmick betrays ignorance about 8K and why the Z9G has it. Sure, when 8K content is available, the viewing experience will be like looking though a window instead of at a screen. Meanwhile, 8K is not a luxury but a necessity for panels that approach wall size. Consumers want screens that cover more field-of-view, for a more theatrical experience. When you enlarge screen size but not pixel density, you degrade image quality from the same distance. An 85" screen in a living room needs 8K. But 8K alone is not there yet. Until now no processor has been powerful enough to move all those pixels over all that real estate while maintaining IQ. Now Sony has one—the X1-Ultimate. Sony motion handling has always been superior, and with the X1-ultimate, it will remain so in 8K. By the way, I see the 85"+ panels as harbingers of the demise of home theater projection TVs.

Also, Sony has superior up-scaling algorithms, so SD, HD and UHD content will look better—not just blown up—in 8K than in their native displays. Combine that with Sony's almost 100% color gamut and spot-on color accuracy out of the box, and.... Oh yeah, in HDR the Z9G reaches 4000 nits, which is the Dolby DV benchmark. No other consumer TV does that. As for the price, yes, the 98" pricing is over the top, though some people will pay far more for a loudspeaker. But $13K for the 85". Compared to $20K launch price for the 77" OLED, that's darn reasonable!

Speaking of OLED, the Z9G blacks are fine for me. In fact they're more honest than Samsung QLED blacks, which suppress shadow detail to eliminate blooming. Yes, in a pitch-dark room, you will get slight blooming in Sony blacks, but Sony's philosophy is to give you all the picture, including shadow and white detail. OLED blacks are honest, but I use my TV as my PC monitor—static content all the time, so OLED is out.

So, enough wrongheaded quibbling about 8K! 4K has been just a transition. 8K is the end point. If they pull 16K, then we can talk gimmick. For those who know Sony quality, the Z9G should be the last TV they'll ever own. It will be for me.
This post reads like a PR press release.

You seem pretty sure about 8K in general and the Z9G's performance in particular.

You mentioned the viewing experience will be like watching through a window. Sounds to me like you're the type of person looking for content that looks like those instore demos they're running on TV sets. Personally I just want TVs that are able to display an accurate presentation of motion pictures accordingly to how it should look. Something which most past and current 4K TVs seem to be doing a pretty good job at. You mentioned 4K just being a transition. I actually think it is the end point when it comes to movies on physical media, which btw is all I care about. With so many 2K DI movies and 4K DI ones still being in the minority, what actual benefit would 8K have for motion picture movie watching? Sure perhaps they could do complete new scans and remasters for old(er) analogue movies in order to benefit from the higher resolution, but I doubt that would happen. And an actual 8K DI for modern movies is not something that I think will ever happen either. And physical 8K UHD media is something that I think most definitely will never happen. I think the only thing 8K will possibly be any good for, is if they somehow would bring 3D back in one form or another.

It seems to me you think 8K is an absolute necessity for larger screens. I honestly doubt that. If Sony give it their best, I bet 4K would be enough for an 85" screen to display a correct picture and still maintaining the same characteristics of its smaller counterparts. As for upscaling 4K to 8K, I think we're getting to the point of diminishing returns here...

And as for the Z9G, I'm sure it will be an amazing set. But with everything I have heard and read so far, its price tag will not justify its performance I think. At least not for me. The 75Z9D does an excellent job under pitch-dark room conditions. There is no reason why the Z9G would potentially underperform in that regard when compared to the 75Z9D. I expect the G to outperform the D.

Being a long life Sony fan, I think I know Sony quality. And I am 100% sure I wouldn't want the Z9G to be the last TV I will ever own. Especially not just because it happens to be 8K. IMHO the "true" future lies in new TV technologies like Mini and MicroLED, not higher resolutions. But I'll be happy to be proving wrong though and eat my words should the time come.

Btw this is NOT a personal attack on you, I am just sharing my 2 cents on the matter.
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post #376 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 06:20 PM
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I never said that and it was a joke.

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Oh it was a joke...ok, there was no hidden meaning in my question, just curious.

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The screen reflections on this Z9G are quite bothersome for such an expensive set. It’s impossible not to notice those hideous reflections in all the posted reviews. Having owned a Z9F, I can tell you that the poor anti-reflection filter was one of 2 major issues that led to my returning that set.
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post #378 of 826 Old 05-31-2019, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJR662 View Post
Honestly, THAT is what you're actually worrying about regarding this set?!!

With all due respect, what do you actually expect out of all this 8K nonsense except maybe the slight possibilty of the Olympics being streamed in 8K in the west sometime 2030? And Youtube 8K or any streaming service in 8K? Seriously, what are your expectations regarding that? 8K in itself and all the things you mentioned (including HDMI 2.1 support) are at the bottom of my "to worry about" list.
They advertise this TV as 8k. Vimeo and Youtube claim to have thousands of 8k videos available now. I am sure most are not worth watching, but I am sure there are some great demo videos. Essentially Sony is blowing it by not making this content available on their 8k TV considering that it may be the only 8k content available for quite some time. They claim to have designed an 8k TV, and want to charge an 8k premium for it, but only make it practical to feed it 4k content.
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post #379 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 12:51 AM
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They advertise this TV as 8k. Vimeo and Youtube claim to have thousands of 8k videos available now. I am sure most are not worth watching, but I am sure there are some great demo videos. Essentially Sony is blowing it by not making this content available on their 8k TV considering that it may be the only 8k content available for quite some time. They claim to have designed an 8k TV, and want to charge an 8k premium for it, but only make it practical to feed it 4k content.
Fair enough if you look at it from that point of view.

But still you got to ask yourself, wouldn't most of that stuff be just upscaled 4K anyway? And even if it is native 8K, how much of that and how many times will you be actually watching it assuming that it's all demo videos. Perhaps the internal video player app will be able to play downloaded 8K demo videos?

I think being able to actually play 8K content on this set is not Sony's main concern right now. They are stressing the need for 8K in order to have a better viewing experience with large sets like these.

My point here is, or rather my opinion, if you buy a TV in this price range, your main concern should be that the picture quality is truly outstanding with absolutely no compromises made. Not being able to stream 8K demo videos isn't something that I would be worrying about personally...
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post #380 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 12:08 PM
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I reaaaaaaally hope they come out with a cheaper (65" & 75") ~4K version of Z9G at IFA 2019 or maybe CES 2020 ... maybe even without X-wide for the 65"




that would pretty much be the true successor to Z9D, and a challenger to the OLEDs
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post #381 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 01:57 PM
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Anyone know if there will be a side by side comparison with the 85” 950g?
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post #382 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mike123abc View Post
They advertise this TV as 8k. Vimeo and Youtube claim to have thousands of 8k videos available now. I am sure most are not worth watching, but I am sure there are some great demo videos. Essentially Sony is blowing it by not making this content available on their 8k TV considering that it may be the only 8k content available for quite some time. They claim to have designed an 8k TV, and want to charge an 8k premium for it, but only make it practical to feed it 4k content.
The problem currently is that the TV cannot play those videos from those sources and in Vincent's review he mentioned YouTube would have to use a different codec rather than VP9.2 for it to play. I suppose you could connect a PC to it for playback but that is a big investment if you don't have one just for the limited content.

I would say there are thousands of 4K videos on those platforms easily but I am not so sure if there are even a hundred different true 8K videos on YouTube.

Watching an 8K video on my PC puts a rather large load on a pretty powerful GPU, just to give an idea of how much it takes to decode the video.

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post #383 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 10:04 PM
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Oh it was a joke...ok, there was no hidden meaning in my question, just curious.
Doesn't change the fact that you should see Aquaman on this set. Truly the best HDR I've seen in a while.

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
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post #384 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 10:06 PM
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^nah...not interested, I like contrast sorry...
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post #385 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 10:17 PM
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^nah...not interested, I like contrast sorry...
and crushed shadow detail, ABL, banding, tinting, posturization and burn in....

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post #386 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 10:20 PM
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^lol, cmon is that all you got??? Yeah because LCDs dont suffer from black crush, banding and posterization right🤣🤣🤣...

Its funny becuase I own both techs, yet you speak as if you have sooo much experience with oled...lets see how this pans out in the shootout...again, but hey the Z9F might get the nice distinction of loosing two years in a row🤣🤣🤣
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post #387 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 10:24 PM
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Doesn't change the fact that you should see Aquaman on this set. Truly the best HDR I've seen in a while.

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You should see it on a Z9D with far greater contrast, you'd love it!
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post #388 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 10:24 PM
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^lol, cmon is that all you got??? Yeah because LCDs dont suffer from black crush, banding and posterization right
In general, LCDs suffer from DSE, blooming, and posturization sure..... And even viewing angles.

They all have one thing or another..... Some how though, all the OLED shortfalls are down played and ignored.




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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
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post #389 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 10:26 PM
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^Its all good, my sets each serve there purpose😎
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post #390 of 826 Old 06-01-2019, 10:27 PM
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You should see it on a Z9D with far greater contrast, you'd love it!
I'm sure. There is no doubt the Z9D is great. Even the great Z9D has shortfalls.... They all do.

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Sony LCD Master Series Calibration Thread
My P75-C1 Calibration Settings (5.0.14.1).
Sony XBR-75Z9F, Vizio P75-C1, Pioneer Kuro 5020, Pioneer VSX-1131, XBox One(X), Wii, NVIDIA SHIELD.v1, FireTV 4K-HDR, HDHR Connects, QNAP 431+
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