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post #721 of 905 Old 07-29-2019, 10:53 PM
 
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Do I miss something here, some people say O-leds have blooming? I thought pixel level control stops any blooming from occuring? The human retina seeing a small glow around the boundary of bright objects in complete darkness is not blooming, not to be confused. Blooming is a picture artifact, in LCD it is caused by the limited number of dimmable zones. O-leds do not cause any blooming, the adjacent pixels next to the brightest dot on screen can be completely shut off.
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post #722 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DJR662 View Post
You make it sound as if the X-wide filter is something that is absolutely necessary. Does the above apply to 75" TVs because I have never witness anything like what you described on my 75Z9D?

Either way and with all due respect, I'm not buying all this positive talk regarding the X-wide view tech. As far as I am concerned, that stuff needs to be ditched asap.
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Originally Posted by picturequality View Post
I have a z9d and I have never seen any of these issues that you speak of, looking to the left of right of the screen everything looks just as good. Going slightly off angle and I don't see any degeneration in the picture or black levels and I consider myself to be a very picky person.
Get yourself a movie or TV show that was mastered with elevated blacks. This will prevent the LEDs from turning off when displaying black and allow you to see the panel's native near-black response. On an OLED you will see a uniformity horror show riddled with vertical banding and/or vignetting. On a non-filtered VA panel, you will instead see what looks like edge-lighting as there is a huge contrast difference between the center of the panel vs. the off-angle perimeter. If you get up and move so that you're perpendicular to the edges of the display, the brighter borders will disappear and move elsewhere on the panel. Same problem when displaying full screen saturated colors.

It's difficult to accurately photograph such dark content but I've looked through my collection of old 75z9d pictures and found a few examples. These are displaying about 0.5% to 1% Gray level. You can't use 0% gray to judge viewing angles on any TV because it just shuts off. The red saturation pics are from Last Jedi. From what I remember, every time the camera panned across those red backgrounds you saw them change color as they hit the borders of the TV. Both of these typical VA panel problems are much improved to the point of being a non-distraction on a wide-angle filtered VA panel.
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post #723 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Get yourself a movie or TV show that was mastered with elevated blacks. This will prevent the LEDs from turning off when displaying black and allow you to see the panel's native near-black response. On an OLED you will see a uniformity horror show riddled with vertical banding and/or vignetting. On a non-filtered VA panel, you will instead see what looks like edge-lighting as there is a huge contrast difference between the center of the panel vs. the off-angle perimeter. If you get up and move so that you're perpendicular to the edges of the display, the brighter borders will disappear and move elsewhere on the panel. Same problem when displaying full screen saturated colors.

It's difficult to accurately photograph such dark content but I've looked through my collection of old 75z9d pictures and found a few examples. These are displaying about 0.5% to 1% Gray level. You can't use 0% gray to judge viewing angles on any TV because it just shuts off. The red saturation pics are from Last Jedi. From what I remember, every time the camera panned across those red backgrounds you saw them change color as they hit the borders of the TV. Both of these typical VA panel problems are much improved to the point of being a non-distraction on a wide-angle filtered VA panel.
Thanks.

I have TLJ myself (unfortunately ) so I can use that one to see for myself.

But even if there are issues, how much of a real issue would these be with real world content and during normal movie watching I wonder?

And besides that, the X-wide filter adds issues of its own which seem to be much more of a real problem for which you don't need to be pulling up test patterns. It's been stated many times over. Sacrificing picture quality in favor of wider viewing angles is not something I'm looking forward to...
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post #724 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DJR662 View Post
Thanks.



I have TLJ myself (unfortunately ) so I can use that one to see for myself.



But even if there are issues, how much of a real issue would these be with real world content and during normal movie watching I wonder?



And besides that, the X-wide filter adds issues of its own which seem to be much more of a real problem for which you don't need to be pulling up test patterns. It's been stated many times over. Sacrificing picture quality in favor of wider viewing angles is not something I'm looking forward to...
But that’s just it...I’ve done the testing and comparisons myself and you are gaining far more in picture quality than you’re losing. The deficiencies of VA’s without X-wide become more apparent as you get up into the larger screen sizes, as I found out, and this is where the strengths of X-wide become much more noticeable. Perhaps this was the reason why Sony chose to include X-wide on the larger 75 & 85” 950G variants and not the smaller sizes. Don’t take my word for it, go ahead and do the testing yourself. That’s what I did.

Anyway, you can’t convince people who don’t want to be convinced. They have to be open to the idea first and I have absolutely no desire to keep beating the dead horse here. Your loss.

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post #725 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
I have a C8 also and there is definitely blooming under certain scorching scenerios against a black background. but this is only with HDR content, not sdr. whether it's a human eye limitation or not, it's there and it will also be visible on microled tvs with 2500-4000 nits against a black background also. funny thing happened. I had the C8 next to my Q9FN and under very specific scenerios, the Q9 was dimming certain highlights so low that it had nearly no blooming while the C8 was going nuclear and had large glow. the C8 is impressively bright with some of its highlights in the 25% range. that's a compliment.

I will say that under normal conditions with widescreen bars and other generic scenes a TV should have zero bleed or bloom, which the oled aces in those areas. I just sent back an 82Q90R because of a defective dimming zone and I'll say the TV failed alot of "easy" scenerios where an OLED or even my Q9FN would handle easily. hoping my replacement is better.

Folks we have a genius on our hands who just proved that all the thousands of tv enthusiasts are idiots. All these years we are buying oled tvs because we dont like blooming in movies when in reality the oled is a bloomer and all you need is a Samsung led tv. I will be throwing my c8 in the garbage and hide in embarrassment and go pick up a Samsung led. Please share more of your Einstein discoveries with us and you should be nominated for a noble peace prize.
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post #726 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BRAC View Post
But that’s just it...I’ve done the testing and comparisons myself and you are gaining far more in picture quality than you’re losing. The deficiencies of VA’s without X-wide become more apparent as you get up into the larger screen sizes, as I found out, and this is where the strengths of X-wide become much more noticeable. Perhaps this was the reason why Sony chose to include X-wide on the larger 75 & 85” 950G variants and not the smaller sizes. Don’t take my word for it, go ahead and do the testing yourself. That’s what I did.

Anyway, you can’t convince people who don’t want to be convinced. They have to be open to the idea first and I have absolutely no desire to keep beating the dead horse here. Your loss.
But did you compare the 75Z9D to the 85Z9G or perhaps even the 100Z9D to the 85/98Z9G? That's what would be interesting for me to see how much of an improvement the X-wide is and in what regards.

I'm still keeping an open mind though by testing Wizziwig's findings with my own 75Z9D and see for myself how much of a problem it really is (both test patterns and real world content) with what he is describing. Though I have to say in advance, I have never noticed such problems myself and I have never read anything about it. If it would pose such a problem, I'm sure lots of 75Z9D owners would have made their voice heard on various forums by now. Vincent Teoh has reviewed the huge 100" Z9D model and I don't seem to remember he said anything about it with regards to those kind of issues. The things I DO keep reading about though, both user experiences and pro reviews, are the unwanted side effects of the X-wide filter as is also the case with the 85Z9G unfortunately.
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post #727 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 11:25 AM
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Why include the Q90R when the Z9F is already determined to be better?
Just to have all top dogs there, tested in the same environment. To keep the nay sayers at piece.
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post #728 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 12:03 PM
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X-Wide is great technology for LCD displays. I own one. I use it in a dark room almost all the time. With an 8k display, sitting closer to these screens is likely to become a “thing” as people seek a full immersion experience in smaller settings with big tv’s. You need X-wide. Future LED tech will probably use it as well.


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SONY Z9F LCD Master Series Owners Thread
Vizio 2016 P series FAQ, general info and Help
Sony Z9F 75, Vizio P75C1 UHD/HDR/DV, Pioneer Elite SC-95, Samsung UHD Bluray K8500, AppleTV 4K, CC Ultra
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post #729 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Cam1977 View Post
^i have a c8 as well and their is absolutely no blooming whatsoever in either HDR or SDR. This is a complete FARCE. Instead of saying its their and that next to your q9 the c8 was "large glow", you need to provide some evidence to support this. I have tested this plenty of times with each of the oleds that have passed through my house. Its unfortunate that LCD's still have this issue even with the price tag associated with them, to include the Z9G and the 90R.

reply wrapped in spoiler in case of off possible off topic discussion.

Spoiler!




I wrapped the pictures in spoilers.


Spoiler!


75Q9FN*55C8oled* Oppo 203/UB820*S10+*DenonX4200

82Q90R*75Q9FN(RIP)*55C8OLED*Galaxy Note10+*Ub820 fed into Oppo 203*XB1X*4k DenonX4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN

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post #730 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
reply wrapped in spoiler in case of off possible off topic discussion.

Spoiler!




I wrapped the pictures in spoilers.


Spoiler!


75Q9FN*55C8oled* Oppo 203/UB820*S10+*DenonX4200
Give us a break
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post #731 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
I have a C8 also and there is definitely blooming under certain scorching scenerios against a black background. but this is only with HDR content, not sdr. whether it's a human eye limitation or not, it's there and it will also be visible on microled tvs with 2500-4000 nits against a black background also. funny thing happened. I had the C8 next to my Q9FN and under very specific scenerios, the Q9 was dimming certain highlights so low that it had nearly no blooming while the C8 was going nuclear and had large glow. the C8 is impressively bright with some of its highlights in the 25% range. that's a compliment.

I will say that under normal conditions with widescreen bars and other generic scenes a TV should have zero bleed or bloom, which the oled aces in those areas. I just sent back an 82Q90R because of a defective dimming zone and I'll say the TV failed alot of "easy" scenerios where an OLED or even my Q9FN would handle easily. hoping my replacement is better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam1977 View Post
^i have a c8 as well and their is absolutely no blooming whatsoever in either HDR or SDR. This is a complete FARCE. Instead of saying its their and that next to your q9 the c8 was "large glow", you need to provide some evidence to support this. I have tested this plenty of times with each of the oleds that have passed through my house. Its unfortunate that LCD's still have this issue even with the price tag associated with them, to include the Z9G and the 90R.

So just to clarify and get us up to date, what we know about OLEDs is:


- There is definitely blooming
- There definitely isn't blooming


Cool, now we're all on the same page, can we move on from turning this into another LCD vs OLED thread and make it about the Z9G like it's supposed to be. Sure a couple "points of comparison" to OLED/something else can be useful, the continued pissing contest between OLEDs and LCDs isn't.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
reply wrapped in spoiler in case of off possible off topic discussion.

Spoiler!




I wrapped the pictures in spoilers.


Spoiler!


75Q9FN*55C8oled* Oppo 203/UB820*S10+*DenonX4200
Please post your "evidence" in the appropriate thread in the oled section.
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post #733 of 905 Old 07-30-2019, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
So just to clarify and get us up to date, what we know about OLEDs is:


- There is definitely blooming
- There definitely isn't blooming


Cool, now we're all on the same page, can we move on from turning this into another LCD vs OLED thread and make it about the Z9G like it's supposed to be. Sure a couple "points of comparison" to OLED/something else can be useful, the continued pissing contest between OLEDs and LCDs isn't.
Agreed, I did try not to keep this sillu argument going, obviously some members here dont understand what pixel level control means.
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post #734 of 905 Old 07-31-2019, 06:46 AM
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But...but...OLED’s are perfect. How can it be??

Seriously speaking, both of these tech’s have their fair share of strengths and weaknesses. Now let’s get back to the Z9G!

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post #735 of 905 Old 08-01-2019, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJR662 View Post
I'm still keeping an open mind though by testing Wizziwig's findings with my own 75Z9D and see for myself how much of a problem it really is (both test patterns and real world content) with what he is describing. Though I have to say in advance, I have never noticed such problems myself and I have never read anything about it. If it would pose such a problem, I'm sure lots of 75Z9D owners would have made their voice heard on various forums by now. Vincent Teoh has reviewed the huge 100" Z9D model and I don't seem to remember he said anything about it with regards to those kind of issues. The things I DO keep reading about though, both user experiences and pro reviews, are the unwanted side effects of the X-wide filter as is also the case with the 85Z9G unfortunately.
If you're not bothered by typical VA panel viewing angle issues, maybe it's best not to look for them. Once seen, it cannot be unseen and will probably jump out at you watching everything.

If you're still interested, I already gave you a real-world example from Last Jedi - you don't need test patterns. The gamma-shift and constant changes in shadow detail as scenes pan across the screen is pretty much in all content if you pay attention. Detail in shadows will magically appear at the borders and then disappear as it moves towards screen center. On TVs with the worst viewing angles, just moving your head can cause visible changes in shadow detail. If your disc player allows pausing and zooming/panning, try panning around any scene with dark shadow detail (even people wearing dark clothing or hair) and see how the details appear and disappear depending on where they land on the screen.

The root cause is illustrated well in the photos in this old Samsung thread. As you can see, a normal VA panel has a very narrow cone where it has the highest contrast and highest gamma. This narrow cone will also move around as you change viewing position. Any pixels outside this cone will lose color saturation and reduce gamma due to light contamination as seen in the photos I posted earlier.

You need to pick a TV with issues you can live with. As a uniformity fanatic, any TV that causes images to change appearance depending on where they land on the screen is an automatic deal-breaker for me. Others may be more bothered by worse black levels or blooming. Pick your poison.

Edit: If you do want to play with test patterns, I suggest taking a look at this old shadow detail pattern I made a long time ago. Pay attention to what it looks like as you move your head, change seating position, or just pan this pattern around the screen.
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post #736 of 905 Old 08-01-2019, 07:31 PM
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So, before I dip my toes into this pond, how many here “questioning” the performance of the 85 inch Z9G ACTUALLY own one? The only reason I ask, is that I know how hard it was/is to obtain one... I almost think anyone knocking/questioning the performance of the display should prove they own one before suggesting they know more about the panel than the posters that actually have one?! Seriously! I know less than most, and I know how few were available over the last month, and even less are available over the NEXT month! It’s easy to read someone else’s review that has something to gain by questioning the performance, and using that to form your opinions.

Not trying to make enemies, but as a long time reader and very recent to the game of posting, it bothers me that so many have opinions on the performance of items that they don’t own, nor have the ability to truly test and OBJECTIVELY provide feedback on performance. It almost seems like all some care about is how many “posts” they have, as opposed to if they actually provide any quality in their posts.

My Z9G is scheduled for delivery tomorrow, and I hope to post updates comparing it to the 75” Z9D it is replacing over the next few weeks. But, the renovation to the space turning it into a theater may delay that. Either way, I’ll post my opinion on the panel, only actually having purchased and spent TRUE time putting the tv through its paces.

And as I’ve learned, no matter what I post, it will be WRONG to the owners of the opposite brand and “window” shoppers. To be honest, I may think the Z9G sucks, but until it gets here, I’m not going to guess or try to interpret others subjective interpretations of paid reviewers dialog as gospel in regards to what may be a legitimate step forward in performance and quality.
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post #737 of 905 Old 08-01-2019, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by RxJedi View Post
So, before I dip my toes into this pond, how many here “questioning” the performance of the 85 inch Z9G ACTUALLY own one? The only reason I ask, is that I know how hard it was/is to obtain one... I almost think anyone knocking/questioning the performance of the display should prove they own one before suggesting they know more about the panel than the posters that actually have one?! Seriously! I know less than most, and I know how few were available over the last month, and even less are available over the NEXT month! It’️s easy to read someone else’️s review that has something to gain by questioning the performance, and using that to form your opinions.

Not trying to make enemies, but as a long time reader and very recent to the game of posting, it bothers me that so many have opinions on the performance of items that they don’️t own, nor have the ability to truly test and OBJECTIVELY provide feedback on performance. It almost seems like all some care about is how many “posts” they have, as opposed to if they actually provide any quality in their posts.

My Z9G is scheduled for delivery tomorrow, and I hope to post updates comparing it to the 75” Z9D it is replacing over the next few weeks. But, the renovation to the space turning it into a theater may delay that. Either way, I’️ll post my opinion on the panel, only actually having purchased and spent TRUE time putting the tv through its paces.

And as I’️ve learned, no matter what I post, it will be WRONG to the owners of the opposite brand and “window” shoppers. To be honest, I may think the Z9G sucks, but until it gets here, I’️m not going to guess or try to interpret others subjective interpretations of paid reviewers dialog as gospel in regards to what may be a legitimate step forward in performance and quality.
Eager to hear your thoughts! Mine is probably gonna sit just like this for the next two weeks waiting for some other stuff to finish...
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post #738 of 905 Old 08-02-2019, 02:39 PM
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Very jealous over here guys. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts. Have fun!
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post #739 of 905 Old 08-03-2019, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Get yourself a movie or TV show that was mastered with elevated blacks. This will prevent the LEDs from turning off when displaying black and allow you to see the panel's native near-black response. On an OLED you will see a uniformity horror show riddled with vertical banding and/or vignetting. On a non-filtered VA panel, you will instead see what looks like edge-lighting as there is a huge contrast difference between the center of the panel vs. the off-angle perimeter. If you get up and move so that you're perpendicular to the edges of the display, the brighter borders will disappear and move elsewhere on the panel. Same problem when displaying full screen saturated colors.

It's difficult to accurately photograph such dark content but I've looked through my collection of old 75z9d pictures and found a few examples. These are displaying about 0.5% to 1% Gray level. You can't use 0% gray to judge viewing angles on any TV because it just shuts off. The red saturation pics are from Last Jedi. From what I remember, every time the camera panned across those red backgrounds you saw them change color as they hit the borders of the TV. Both of these typical VA panel problems are much improved to the point of being a non-distraction on a wide-angle filtered VA panel.

Do you have a link for those 0,5% and 1% gray level patterns or are they to be found elsewhere perhaps?



Thanks in advance.

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post #740 of 905 Old 08-03-2019, 07:53 AM
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off-topic, but any hints as to what Sony will bring to IFA 2019 ?
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post #741 of 905 Old 08-03-2019, 12:08 PM
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Do you have a link for those 0,5% and 1% gray level patterns or are they to be found elsewhere perhaps?
Thanks in advance.
That checkerboard shadow detail pattern I linked previously has squares covering every possible signal grayscale value below 5%. The entire second column and second row background is at 0.5%.

There are full screen patterns in "MP4-2c\ColorHCFR Fields\Near Black" folder of AVS patterns set. Don't remember if they go all the way down to 0.5% or just 1%. Pausing during any "fade-to-black" on a non-zero mastered TV show or movie will usually display 0.5% or 1% as well. There are literally too many to name as it seams to be the current Hollywood trend to master content this way. Off the top of my head - "Fear the Walking Dead" or "Zero Dark Thirty" intro come to mind.
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post #742 of 905 Old 08-05-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
That checkerboard shadow detail pattern I linked previously has squares covering every possible signal grayscale value below 5%. The entire second column and second row background is at 0.5%.

There are full screen patterns in "MP4-2c\ColorHCFR Fields\Near Black" folder of AVS patterns set. Don't remember if they go all the way down to 0.5% or just 1%. Pausing during any "fade-to-black" on a non-zero mastered TV show or movie will usually display 0.5% or 1% as well. There are literally too many to name as it seams to be the current Hollywood trend to master content this way. Off the top of my head - "Fear the Walking Dead" or "Zero Dark Thirty" intro come to mind.

Thanks again.


I did not want to derail this thead any longer, so I copied your posts and made some responses to them and posted it in the Z9D owners thread.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-l...l#post58386454

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post #743 of 905 Old 08-06-2019, 08:40 AM
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Eager to hear your thoughts! Mine is probably gonna sit just like this for the next two weeks waiting for some other stuff to finish...

One of you needs to start an actual owners thread to clean all this mess up.

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post #744 of 905 Old 08-07-2019, 09:38 AM
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Is there a Native contrast measurement and a contrast measurement with local dimming on? Just curious?

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post #745 of 905 Old 08-07-2019, 12:05 PM
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Is there a Native contrast measurement and a contrast measurement with local dimming on? Just curious?
https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....&id=1559201058

looks like 4400:1...I assume its with local dimming on, but they don't clarify

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post #746 of 905 Old 08-08-2019, 02:37 AM
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https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....&id=1559201058



looks like 4400:1...I assume its with local dimming on, but they don't clarify
I would agree that is a great assumption especially with HDR giving a similar number.

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post #747 of 905 Old 08-10-2019, 03:55 PM
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Question Enhanced Format Options

Anyone know much about the Enhanced Formats options on HDMI4? HDMI4 (8k capable) specifically has an option it labels "Dolby Vision"... I wonder why? I don't recall seeing this on my other Sony TVs such as X900E and X900F. The HDMI3 options don't say Dolby Vision but lists similar format support beyond that.
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post #748 of 905 Old 08-13-2019, 02:19 AM
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Is there some owners thread I do not know about?
There isn't many posts from actual owners - and I really miss them
And the ones they managed to get their hands on this beast are waiting for renovation etc - haaaalo guys? what gives?
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post #749 of 905 Old 08-13-2019, 08:17 AM
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I've bought a XBR85Z9G, waiting for it to arrive

purchased mine from bestbuy.ca - credit card charged, status 'shipped'. estimated arrival date isn't until Sept, but hopefully it won't take that long.
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post #750 of 905 Old 08-14-2019, 01:45 PM
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Is there some owners thread I do not know about?
There isn't many posts from actual owners - and I really miss them
And the ones they managed to get their hands on this beast are waiting for renovation etc - haaaalo guys? what gives?

The price is the problem not many people can spend 13 grand cash for a tv and some who can afford it thinks that is too much money for a tv. When the price drops you will start to see a lot more owners.
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