2019 Sony XBR X950G Owners Thread (No Price Talk) - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 955Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #301 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 03:26 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 91
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferro View Post
Euro prices have been published on the Sony web site:
I got this from the German site, where the 65" ZF9 has the same price as the 65" X9G. Does that make any sense?
That is crazy. Bye, bye Sony. Welcome Samsung q70r or q80r
Tomek398 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #302 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 03:48 AM
Member
 
pppp1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimon.Zorg View Post
Thanks. Just look carefully at left lower corner of TV. When letterbox movie is on or black screen you can see that black becomes greyish-blue. Of course I think brightness is up to max but...
What does that mean exactly? Blooming?
pppp1 is offline  
post #303 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 03:54 AM
Senior Member
 
Dimon.Zorg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
What does that mean exactly?
I think it means that X95G is a new incarnation of Z9F in new shell. Prices just prove it.
Dimon.Zorg is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #304 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 04:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
mithras1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 841
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 514 Post(s)
Liked: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dener Melo View Post
I'm understanding. But something leads me to believe that they have increased the number of control zones of the TV.
X905f has 48. I twist to deliver the X905G with something close to 100.
X905F in 55" has 48, other sizes have more or less (49").


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimon.Zorg View Post
Thanks. Just look carefully at left lower corner of TV. When letterbox movie is on or black screen you can see that black becomes greyish-blue. Of course I think brightness is up to max but...
So should be an accurate representation for HDR content


Quote:
Originally Posted by ferro View Post
Euro prices have been published on the Sony web site:

KD-55XG9505 - 1.999,00 €

KD-65XG9505 - 2.799,00 €

KD-75XG9505 - 4.499,00 €

I got this from the German site, where the 65" ZF9 has the same price as the 65" X9G. Does that make any sense?

https://www.sony.de/electronics/tv/t...pe=led&type=4k
Germany usually has one of the cheapest msrp (recommended price). ZF9 will be discontinued so you have a choice of a 65" with X-Wide Angle (and poor contrast) or 65" XG95 without X-Wide but good black levels and contrast (but less brightness)
mithras1 is offline  
post #305 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 04:18 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 91
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppp1 View Post
What does that mean exactly? Blooming?
Every user of Direct LED TV should understand that blooming is something normal especially for HDR content in the case of LCD panels with 5000-6000 native contrast. Good algorithm can make it less distracting but I can't eliminate it completely. The only (partial) solution is to increase number of zones and use good algorithms.

Quote:
I think it means that X95G is a new incarnation of Z9F in new shell. Prices just prove it.
Agree. We will know that for sure after reviewers will reveal number of zones and max brightness.
Tomek398 is offline  
post #306 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 04:34 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 816
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 530 Post(s)
Liked: 145
If I get this tv, it will be likely the 85", price for which is unannounced. Hopefully it will be around the launch price of x900f. I believe Sony is waiting to see the reception on the X950g and if it is positive, launch price will be very high for the 85", especially since this tv is looking like a slightly tweaked version of Z9F.
New_to_4K is offline  
post #307 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 07:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JD23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 2,039
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 543 Post(s)
Liked: 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimon.Zorg View Post
I think it means that X95G is a new incarnation of Z9F in new shell. Prices just prove it.

Prices are considerably lower in the US, however. If the 65 X950G is essentially a Z9F without the X-wide layer and with a higher native contrast (because no X-wide) and slightly lower brightness, it may be a good value.
JD23 is offline  
post #308 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 07:49 AM
Senior Member
 
Dimon.Zorg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Prices are considerably lower in the US
Well it is quite expected. Sony doesn't want to give its market share to Chinese companies like TCL and Hisense. And Samsung of course .

Quote:
it may be a good value.
Yep. It's all depends on price.
Dimon.Zorg is online now  
post #309 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 08:24 AM
Member
 
johnnyvn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Liked: 20
I find it interesting that the USA Sony site still shows the 930/940E as an active product. Any thoughts on that?
johnnyvn is offline  
post #310 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 11:32 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ray0414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 16,685
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12557 Post(s)
Liked: 11736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimon.Zorg View Post
I think it means that X95G is a new incarnation of Z9F in new shell. Prices just prove it.
Z9F will be the lcd flagship in 2019 and will continue to be sold throughout the year.

75Q9FN* Panny UB820 fed into Oppo203*Denon X4200 * S9+*
venus933 likes this.

75Q9FN*55C8OLED*Galaxy S10+ *Ub820 fed into Oppo 203* XB1X* 4k Denon X4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
ray0414 is offline  
post #311 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 12:36 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 816
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 530 Post(s)
Liked: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Z9F will be the lcd flagship in 2019 and will continue to be sold throughout the year.

75Q9FN* Panny UB820 fed into Oppo203*Denon X4200 * S9+*
The flatpanel message seems to be referring to the low model x900f, continue to be sold in 2019. While it is obviously not marketed as a replacement for Z9F, the pricing equal on both models in some countries tells a different story.
New_to_4K is offline  
post #312 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 12:46 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ray0414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 16,685
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12557 Post(s)
Liked: 11736
Quote:
Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
The flatpanel message seems to be referring to the low model x900f, continue to be sold in 2019. While it is obviously not marketed as a replacement for Z9F, the pricing equal on both models in some countries tells a different story.
I've read elsewhere that the Z9F will continue to be sold this year, it is the 2019 4k lcd flagship.
ray0414 is offline  
post #313 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 01:37 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 5
It doesn’t mention anything on the product page about AirPlay 2... will this TV have it?
Sillyrabbit21 is offline  
post #314 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 08:27 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
ray0414's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 16,685
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12557 Post(s)
Liked: 11736
Quote:
Originally Posted by New_to_4K View Post
The flatpanel message seems to be referring to the low model x900f, continue to be sold in 2019. While it is obviously not marketed as a replacement for Z9F, the pricing equal on both models in some countries tells a different story.
I asked for clarification from Rasmus, here's what he said.

75Q9FN* Panny UB820 fed into Oppo203*Denon X4200 * S9+*
venus933 likes this.

75Q9FN*55C8OLED*Galaxy S10+ *Ub820 fed into Oppo 203* XB1X* 4k Denon X4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
ray0414 is offline  
post #315 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 08:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Latinoheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 4,335
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1480 Post(s)
Liked: 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sillyrabbit21 View Post

It doesn’t mention anything on the product page about AirPlay 2... will this TV have it?
It should have it since the rest of the 2019 models will, not that AirPlay 2 really matters anyways.

Media room- 65" Panasonic FZ950 OLED, Pioneer Elite VSX-90, Panasonic UBD-820 4K, Klipsch Gallery G28's, Klipsch Sub 12, Klipsch RS-52 II, Optik HD cable

Living room- Sony 4K 79XBRX900B, Onkyo RC-360,HTPC,Klipsch Reference R-62II,Rc52II,PS4
Gaming room -Panasonic ST60, PS3, Wii
Latinoheat is offline  
post #316 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 09:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Dimon.Zorg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
I asked for clarification from Rasmus, here's what he said.
I don't see any sense. Z9G will be flagship Sony LCD in 2019.

65Z9F has 104 dimming zones. X900F has 60 zones. If X950G has fewer numer of zones than Z9F and at the same price it's ridiculous.
Dimon.Zorg is online now  
post #317 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 09:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bluemoon737's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portsmouth, NH
Posts: 3,725
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2204 Post(s)
Liked: 2705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimon.Zorg View Post
I don't see any sense. Z9G will be flagship Sony LCD in 2019.

65Z9F has 104 dimming zones. X900F has 60 zones. If X950G has fewer numer of zones than Z9F and at the same price it's ridiculous.
Not here, the Z9F is $2K more than the 950G (75").

-Jeff-
Man cave: Sony XBR75Z9D, Marantz SR8012, and OPPO UDP-203
Living room: Sony XBR75X950G, Denon x4500, and Sony UBP-X800M2
bluemoon737 is offline  
post #318 of 2358 Old 02-18-2019, 10:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
Industry Insider
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 24,192
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6498 Post(s)
Liked: 6476
Quote:
Originally Posted by toy4x View Post
Just picked up my 900f... I have till March 5th to return.

Will probably return the 900f and grab the 95g when its avail.

Anyone know when sony tvs are released?
That will be close, I would not be surprised if they are not in just yet........
toy4x likes this.
Cleveland Plasma is offline  
post #319 of 2358 Old 02-19-2019, 06:11 AM
Advanced Member
 
js950's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 745
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 425 Post(s)
Liked: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyvn View Post
I find it interesting that the USA Sony site still shows the 930/940E as an active product. Any thoughts on that?
You can still find a few new ones?
js950 is offline  
post #320 of 2358 Old 02-19-2019, 09:43 AM
Advanced Member
 
DJR662's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 861
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 628 Post(s)
Liked: 408
https://www.avforums.com/news/sony-xg95-4k-hdr-led-tv-availability-announced.15882
DJR662 is offline  
post #321 of 2358 Old 02-19-2019, 10:41 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJR662 View Post
https://www.avforums.com/news/sony-xg95-4k-hdr-led-tv-availability-announced.15882
I need to review
Dener Melo is offline  
post #322 of 2358 Old 02-19-2019, 04:07 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 92
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 14
https://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/n/Sony-to...-UK-Next-Month

Spotlight:

"The new X950G series of 4K resolution is the best range of LCD TVs from Sony"

"Sony seems confident that its new line will continue to be a best seller"

"The company said that the 2019 X950G models improve last year's X950F series in a number of ways, with superior viewing angles on larger models, improved sound system and HDMI eARC among other improvements" I expect contrast, black level improved and, if possible, an increase of at least 20% brightness
Dener Melo is offline  
post #323 of 2358 Old 02-19-2019, 08:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
joshua goard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,603
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1255 Post(s)
Liked: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dener Melo View Post
https://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/n/Sony-to...-UK-Next-Month

Spotlight:

"The new X950G series of 4K resolution is the best range of LCD TVs from Sony"

"Sony seems confident that its new line will continue to be a best seller"

"The company said that the 2019 X950G models improve last year's X950F series in a number of ways, with superior viewing angles on larger models, improved sound system and HDMI eARC among other improvements" I expect contrast, black level improved and, if possible, an increase of at least 20% brightness
Except, there was no X950F model last year...

There was a X900F...

Sony 75xZ9D connected to Panasonic UB820 and Nakamichi Shockwafe 7.1 Pro Atmos
Sony 55x900e
Sony 55xA1E
Sony 75x940e (Returned :-( bad motion blur)
Sony 55x930d (Retired)
joshua goard is online now  
post #324 of 2358 Old 02-20-2019, 01:17 AM
Senior Member
 
Astennu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked: 43
I dont like the news of lower zone counts vs the Z9F. I have a 75X940E and the 288 zones there are enough but i would want more and not less if i upgrade.

I think the 85ZG9 will be way to expensive for me. So i was hoping the 85XG95 would be a good option. But its possible that has the same amount or even less zones compared to my current 940E while the screen is a lot bigger.

I still dont like that Sony changed the dimming algo on my 940E there is way more blooming since the DV Firmware upgrade. There is no way to change it back so i was hoping on some improvements with the XG95 and ZG9.
Seems they still do not disable the black bar led's completely. Even after the Z9F. You would expect them to fix it it should not be that hard and it will make a lot of people, customers and reviewers happy.

HT Setup: Sony 75X940E - Denon X4400W 5.2.4: - SVS Ultra Bookshelf (Front) - SVS Ultra Center - SVS Prime Bookshelf (surround) - 4x Jamo S622 (Height) - Dual SVS PC2000 Sub's
Astennu is offline  
post #325 of 2358 Old 02-20-2019, 01:55 AM
Senior Member
 
Dimon.Zorg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astennu View Post
Seems they still do not disable the black bar led's completely. Even after the Z9F. You would expect them to fix it it should not be that hard and it will make a lot of people, customers and reviewers happy.
Sony sell OLED. Perfect black on LCD TVs is not in priority now
Dimon.Zorg is online now  
post #326 of 2358 Old 02-20-2019, 05:41 AM
Senior Member
 
Dimon.Zorg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Liked: 94
Chinese review - http://dq.tieba.com/p/6040981464

Quote:
[9, summary]
———————————————— —————————— —————————————
Advantages: Simple appearance, stylish workmanship, improved color, excellent
performance, close to the flagship sound quality, improved performance, and red hair powder on X9000F greatly improved
entry-level home theater The audio
and video experience and the paintings are also highly scalable with the X1 Ultimate chip.

Disadvantages: light control, dynamic, black level, visual angle performance, general
X95G 75-inch 85-inch version will have wide sharp view technology
visual angle performance is better than the 75-inch model is not

so close to this evaluation
Well it all looks suspicious
Dimon.Zorg is online now  
post #327 of 2358 Old 02-20-2019, 10:05 AM
Member
 
samovies10's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 113
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimon.Zorg View Post
Chinese review - http://dq.tieba.com/p/6040981464



Well it all looks suspicious
According to this review as well:

-DCI-P3 ~90%
-Obvious blooming
-Native contrast: ~4500:1
-HDR bright highlights peak somewhere between 1000 - 1200 nits
-Color is better than the 900F, but black level and local dimming is worse
-Viewing angles are better (no surprise there)

Overall, to me at least, this seems like a case of one step forward, two steps back like Z9F. The native contrast isn’t as low as the Z9F but it is lower than most VA panels. Also the fact that blooming is worse than the 900F is a deal breaker for me. Color seems to be better though, although Sony still doesn’t seem to be able to go beyond 95% of DCI-P3.. Viewing angles are better as well, but again, not worth it given the blooming, for me anyway.

Will wait for more reviews but it’s not looking good imo. If these elements stay true with the other reviews and Vizio improves their color processing for the Quantum X, I’ll probably just spring for that to hold me over until something better comes along, like a miniLED model. I almost want to consider a Samsung but the lack of Dolby Vision holds me back. I wish someone would come up with a DV -> HDR10+ converter. Then I’d consider it.
gocubs418 likes this.

Setup:
Spoiler!

Last edited by samovies10; 02-20-2019 at 10:08 AM.
samovies10 is offline  
post #328 of 2358 Old 02-20-2019, 10:32 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 464
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 320 Post(s)
Liked: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by samovies10 View Post
According to this review as well:

-DCI-P3 ~90%
-Obvious blooming
-Native contrast: ~4500:1
-HDR bright highlights peak somewhere between 1000 - 1200 nits
-Color is better than the 900F, but black level and local dimming is worse
-Viewing angles are better (no surprise there)

Overall, to me at least, this seems like a case of one step forward, two steps back like Z9F. The native contrast isn’t as low as the Z9F but it is lower than most VA panels. Also the fact that blooming is worse than the 900F is a deal breaker for me. Color seems to be better though, although Sony still doesn’t seem to be able to go beyond 95% of DCI-P3.. Viewing angles are better as well, but again, not worth it given the blooming, for me anyway.

Will wait for more reviews but it’s not looking good imo. If these elements stay true with the other reviews and Vizio improves their color processing for the Quantum X, I’ll probably just spring for that to hold me over until something better comes along, like a miniLED model. I almost want to consider a Samsung but the lack of Dolby Vision holds me back. I wish someone would come up with a DV -> HDR10+ converter. Then I’d consider it.
This thread has spoiled any thought of purchasing the 950G (granted, I will wait for official reviews). I agree with both your points. I might end up choosing a Samsung but it really bothers me that they do not have DV. 2. Most likely, if Vizio doesn't crap the bed on pricing, I will probably shackle up with the PQX 75".
samovies10 likes this.
gocubs418 is offline  
post #329 of 2358 Old 02-20-2019, 10:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 816
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 530 Post(s)
Liked: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by samovies10 View Post
According to this review as well:

-DCI-P3 ~90%
-Obvious blooming
-Native contrast: ~4500:1
-HDR bright highlights peak somewhere between 1000 - 1200 nits
-Color is better than the 900F, but black level and local dimming is worse
-Viewing angles are better (no surprise there)

Overall, to me at least, this seems like a case of one step forward, two steps back like Z9F. The native contrast isn’t as low as the Z9F but it is lower than most VA panels. Also the fact that blooming is worse than the 900F is a deal breaker for me. Color seems to be better though, although Sony still doesn’t seem to be able to go beyond 95% of DCI-P3.. Viewing angles are better as well, but again, not worth it given the blooming, for me anyway.

Will wait for more reviews but it’s not looking good imo. If these elements stay true with the other reviews and Vizio improves their color processing for the Quantum X, I’ll probably just spring for that to hold me over until something better comes along, like a miniLED model. I almost want to consider a Samsung but the lack of Dolby Vision holds me back. I wish someone would come up with a DV -> HDR10+ converter. Then I’d consider it.
Sony implementation of DV is usually lackluster, not sure if you're losing anything over there. Panasonic new LCDs has DV. The last year edition that I saw on display has terrible blooming.
New_to_4K is offline  
post #330 of 2358 Old 02-20-2019, 10:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BRAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 1,963
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked: 546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimon.Zorg View Post
Sony sell OLED. Perfect black on LCD TVs is not in priority now
OLED has better viewing angles as well.

So what is Sony’s priority now?? They seem to have lost all sense of direction at this point when it comes to LCD. I still can’t wrap my head around how they could go from the Z9D to the Z9F.

Samsung 82” Q90R * Denon X4500H * 5.2.4 Atmos * Xbox One X * PS4 Pro
BRAC is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply LCD Flat Panel Displays

Tags
sony 950g 85"

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off