Samsung QE65Q90R, Oled killer? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Matsonia View Post
Was the uniformity worse on the larger models? I only had a 55 E6 and uniformity was probably as close to perfect as I could have wanted. No noticeable banding in any content.
Yes, almost always invariably true since the difficulty factor increases with the size. There's also a 65" version of the model in the sideroom that looks much better (still not perfect).
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post #92 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 01:18 PM
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If you don't want a TV delivering reference quality, you should probably pay little attention to these shootouts...
I don't want reference quality. I want a natural looking picture, which I think is a fairly different thing. So I do pay little attention to shootouts.

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post #93 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 02:29 PM
 
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There wasn't any dark scene hdr content used in last year's shootout. Shouldn't that have been a priority? I never heard a peep out of the shootout about the oeld near black/macroblocking issue last year. I think the shootouts are too short and don't cover enough bases. If you go by scores alone, you would not know that the 65Z9F has horrible issues with its blacks.
I call bullchit. I'm looking at a Z9F right now and the blacks are terrific, zero blooming and the shadow detail is terrific. Certianly near OLED I saw at 3 separate BB and overall so much better than the Samsung Q9FN. In my bright room, the OLED would never work. Overall, I'm blown away by my Z9F
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post #94 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 03:53 PM
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I know some of you guys don't like John Archer but at this point I believe his review is the most insightful for the new Q90R. It isn't all roses... but I am still considering it as a viable alternative to OLED and for my bright room.

Samsung QN65Q90R Review: Tearing Up The LCD Rule Book:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#2eebdf036fe8
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post #95 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 03:57 PM
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I don't want reference quality. I want a natural looking picture, which I think is a fairly different thing. So I do pay little attention to shootouts.
That is one of the reasons, among others , why I haven't bought a Samsung LCD, no matter what settings they don't produce a natural looking picture. Glad you find them looking natural to you though, everyone sees things differently.
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post #96 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 04:06 PM
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^true...the wife wanted one of the qleds for the room, and its been a chore to get the colors looking natural on it...they pop for sure which is why she likes it.

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post #97 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 04:11 PM
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This exactly. These shootouts are designed to determine which set wins in raw picture quality. Not how well it does in someones living room with floor to ceiling windows. The main attribute of picture quality is contrast and black level. OLED has already mastered these two attributes.
I do agree if i wanna watch a 4k Blu Ray i prefer watching it on my OLED but if i was watching a hockey game at 1pm from dead center then LCD to me would have the better picture quality. In my eyes at least. I had a couple friends over the other day watching movies on my OLED and they weren't impressed and said they liked the colors of their mid-range Samsung better. My wife prefers the brighter picture of our LCDs. Taste is subjective when it comes to tv tech.

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post #98 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 04:16 PM
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I do agree if i wanna watch a 4k Blu Ray i prefer watching it on my OLED but if i was watching a hockey game at 1pm from dead center then LCD to me would have the better picture quality. In my eyes at least. I had a couple friends over the other day watching movies on my OLED and they weren't impressed and said they liked the colors of their mid-range Samsung better. My wife prefers the brighter picture of our LCDs. Taste is subjective when it comes to tv tech.

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Taste is subjective, sure. However numbers are entirely objective, and in objective measures OLED wins almost all of them compared to LCD. I agree though that each have their place currently. I am sure many will agree though that emissive display technology is better than transmissive display technology overall, and it is only a matter of time before a new emissive display technology comes out (micro LED?) and makes both LCD and OLED a thing of the past.
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post #99 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 04:30 PM
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I call bullchit. I'm looking at a Z9F right now and the blacks are terrific, zero blooming and the shadow detail is terrific. Certianly near OLED I saw at 3 separate BB and overall so much better than the Samsung Q9FN. In my bright room, the OLED would never work. Overall, I'm blown away by my Z9F
I can see the bloom on the z9f on a bright Best buy floor from 50 feet away lol

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post #100 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
Taste is subjective, sure. However numbers are entirely objective, and in objective measures OLED wins almost all of them compared to LCD. I agree though that each have their place currently. I am sure many will agree though that emissive display technology is better than transmissive display technology overall, and it is only a matter of time before a new emissive display technology comes out (micro LED?) and makes both LCD and OLED a thing of the past.
I agree with you. Numbers don't lie but some people do not prefer accuracy and other prefer a brighter display with more color saturation even though there is less contrast. I won't argue with someone if that is their preference.

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post #101 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sd13 View Post
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Originally Posted by *UFO* View Post
This exactly. These shootouts are designed to determine which set wins in raw picture quality. Not how well it does in someones living room with floor to ceiling windows. The main attribute of picture quality is contrast and black level. OLED has already mastered these two attributes.
I do agree if i wanna watch a 4k Blu Ray i prefer watching it on my OLED but if i was watching a hockey game at 1pm from dead center then LCD to me would have the better picture quality. In my eyes at least. I had a couple friends over the other day watching movies on my OLED and they weren't impressed and said they liked the colors of their mid-range Samsung better. My wife prefers the brighter picture of our LCDs. Taste is subjective when it comes to tv tech.

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Agreed and the hope with this new tv is that you can remove the caveat that you need to be dead center. That’s the breakthrough with this TV. But I’d still like to see Samsung match or come close to Sony with upscaling and motion handling. Those loops they show at Costco and BB are almost useless to me. Who watches a slow motion film of someone paddling through water, gorgeous though that woman is on the LG promo? Bring back cable feeds and fast motion sports and show what these TVs do with normal viewing material.
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post #102 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Loren Kruse. View Post
I know some of you guys don't like John Archer but at this point I believe his review is the most insightful for the new Q90R. It isn't all roses... but I am still considering it as a viable alternative to OLED and for my bright room.

Samsung QN65Q90R Review: Tearing Up The LCD Rule Book:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarc.../#2eebdf036fe8
That seems like a pretty balanced review, thanks.

So it sounds as though the miraculous improvements to black-level and the miraculous improvements to off-angle viewing do not compatible with each other:

"There is still one residual issue when it comes to watching the 65Q90R from a wide horizontal or, especially, vertical angle: slightly increased backlight blooming around bright high dynamic range (HDR) objects when they appear against very dark backdrops. This only appears with very extreme content, though. And even when it does, it’s still pretty limited in terms of both the distance the blooming travels, and how intense it looks."

And it also seems that if you want to avoid Q9FN-like black crush to get the improved OLED-like shadow detail, you need to settle for only ~1500 cd/m2 of peak brightness:

"...while the Movie mode undoubtedly delivers a beautifully even-handed and subtle picture with HDR, it also comes with a substantial hit in brightness and dynamism. I measured 1450 nits on a white 10% HDR window using the Movie preset (though this does stay pretty much static, without the dimming down you get in Standard mode). And the Movie mode image generally looks much flatter."

And finally, Archer agrees that the lack pf Dolby Vision support cones at some cost:

"There’s no doubt that the 65Q90R makes 4K Blu-rays that have Dolby Vision encodes on them look fantastic even without using the Dolby Vision data. But given that titles look better in HDR10+ than they do in HDR10 even on a TV as exceptional as the 65Q90R, you can’t help but think that Dolby Vision titles would look better too if the TV supported their Dolby Vision metadata."

Overall, the Q90 sounds like it may be the best FALD LED/LCD ever made, but it's doubtful it it's going to measure up against WOLED across the full range of reference viewing material:

"The lack of shadow detail in Standard mode and dark standard dynamic range situation are slight frustrations on a TV that’s so generally so brilliant. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Samsung does something about them via future firmware updates."
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What Hi-Fi Never heard of this site Hola In - HOLAIN.COM but they too havehas a good in-depth review. It sounds like from both reviews that Samsung is looking at trying to flush out HDMI 2.1 specially since the competition went that direction this year. The HOLA IN What Hi-Fi review is pretty good. however, I had to look up some of the words they were using which didn't impress me.


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The Deathly Hallows Part II where Voldemort's military of wizards hoard on a slope above Hogwarts, and the distinction in the conveyance of a year ago's Q9FN and 2019's Q90R is obvious. https://www.holain.com/2019/03/samsu...w-hola-in.html


Ok - Sorry for referencing the above site --- looks like it is a plagiarism of What Hi-Fi's review: https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/samsung-qe65q90r

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post #104 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 04:57 PM
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Agreed and the hope with this new tv is that you can remove the caveat that you need to be dead center. That’s the breakthrough with this TV. But I’d still like to see Samsung match or come close to Sony with upscaling and motion handling. Those loops they show at Costco and BB are almost useless to me. Who watches a slow motion film of someone paddling through water, gorgeous though that woman is on the LG promo? Bring back cable feeds and fast motion sports and show what these TVs do with normal viewing material.
Me personally I'd rather have crappy viewing angles and no dse, black crush, sdr undersaturation, broken local dimming in game mode etc. than vice versa. Better viewing angles would be a nice bonus but as long as it doesn't come at the expense of other nasties.

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post #105 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 05:26 PM
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That seems like a pretty balanced review, thanks.

So it sounds as though the miraculous improvements to black-level and the miraculous improvements to off-angle viewing do not compatible with each other:

"There is still one residual issue when it comes to watching the 65Q90R from a wide horizontal or, especially, vertical angle: slightly increased backlight blooming around bright high dynamic range (HDR) objects when they appear against very dark backdrops. This only appears with very extreme content, though. And even when it does, it’s still pretty limited in terms of both the distance the blooming travels, and how intense it looks."

And it also seems that if you want to avoid Q9FN-like black crush to get the improved OLED-like shadow detail, you need to settle for only ~1500 cd/m2 of peak brightness:

"...while the Movie mode undoubtedly delivers a beautifully even-handed and subtle picture with HDR, it also comes with a substantial hit in brightness and dynamism. I measured 1450 nits on a white 10% HDR window using the Movie preset (though this does stay pretty much static, without the dimming down you get in Standard mode). And the Movie mode image generally looks much flatter."

And finally, Archer agrees that the lack pf Dolby Vision support cones at some cost:

"There’s no doubt that the 65Q90R makes 4K Blu-rays that have Dolby Vision encodes on them look fantastic even without using the Dolby Vision data. But given that titles look better in HDR10+ than they do in HDR10 even on a TV as exceptional as the 65Q90R, you can’t help but think that Dolby Vision titles would look better too if the TV supported their Dolby Vision metadata."

Overall, the Q90 sounds like it may be the best FALD LED/LCD ever made, but it's doubtful it it's going to measure up against WOLED across the full range of reference viewing material:

"The lack of shadow detail in Standard mode and dark standard dynamic range situation are slight frustrations on a TV that’s so generally so brilliant. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Samsung does something about them via future firmware updates."
perhaps if they turned the brightness down to OLED levels, the very small amount of remaining blooming would be undetectable.
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post #106 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 05:34 PM
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Me personally I'd rather have crappy viewing angles and no dse, black crush, sdr undersaturation, broken local dimming in game mode etc. than vice versa. Better viewing angles would be a nice bonus but as long as it doesn't come at the expense of other nasties.

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Agree 100% with you and that is what I want as well. The set I buy is for a dedicating bonus/game room and just want the best set for that. I am currently using the Q9FN which I do like, but it does have it's drawbacks as well.

SD13, which 2019 sets are you looking at?

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I can see the bloom on the z9f on a bright Best buy floor from 50 feet away lol

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Then you must have those D-Nice magical eyes. I viewed one with a professional calibrator who happened to be in BB with the Magnolia manager and he didnt see any of that. I'm watching one this very moment and dont see it

You may be victim to the AVS Groupthink hysteria that has infected this forum for the last 15 years on certain subjects.
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post #108 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sd13 View Post
Me personally I'd rather have crappy viewing angles and no dse, black crush, sdr undersaturation, broken local dimming in game mode etc. than vice versa. Better viewing angles would be a nice bonus but as long as it doesn't come at the expense of other nasties.

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Agree 100% with you and that is what I want as well. The set I buy is for a dedicating bonus/game room and just want the best set for that. I am currently using the Q9FN which I do like, but it does have it's drawbacks as well.

SD13, which 2019 sets are you looking at?
That’s fine but the fact of the matter is a lot of folks require viewing angles. It’s why both Samsung and Sony have gone to great lengths to try and solve it. It’s always been weakness for LCDs and a strength for both plasma and OLED and it’s a big deal with his tv. Sure, if it’s a ****ty picture what’s the use but I’m assuming it’s not a ****ty picture.
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post #109 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Loren Kruse. View Post
Never heard of this site Hola In - HOLAIN.COM but they too have a good in-depth review. It sounds like from both reviews that Samsung is looking at trying to flush out HDMI 2.1 specially since the competition went that direction this year. The HOLA IN review is pretty good however, I had to look up some of the words they were using which didn't impress me.
That's just a copy of a review from another website but they have used there own words like some kind of bad translater lol.
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post #110 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 06:08 PM
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perhaps if they turned the brightness down to OLED levels, the very small amount of remaining blooming would be undetectable.
That was my point exactly - while the Q90 may have done a remarkable job compensating for the weaknesses of the Q9FN and largely closing the remaining gals with WOLED, the suposed advantage it has in increased brighness levels over WOLED may prove to be pretty much a wash in the end...

We'll need to wait to see what the quantitative reviewers like Rtings.com and the shootouts have to say (though I'll admit these early reviews have me i trigued).
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Except you get to have that added brightness if and when you want/need it plus a wider color gamut, greater color volume and without any risk of image retention. They all have their pluses and minuses. Video quality is not just about blacks even though everyone with an OLED will tell you so.
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Agree 100% with you and that is what I want as well. The set I buy is for a dedicating bonus/game room and just want the best set for that. I am currently using the Q9FN which I do like, but it does have it's drawbacks as well.



SD13, which 2019 sets are you looking at?
I'm looking at the q90r but let's see. Samsung try to play us like suckers by making the 75 vastly superior to the 65 last year.

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post #113 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 06:41 PM
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That’s fine but the fact of the matter is a lot of folks require viewing angles. It’s why both Samsung and Sony have gone to great lengths to try and solve it. It’s always been weakness for LCDs and a strength for both plasma and OLED and it’s a big deal with his tv. Sure, if it’s a ****ty picture what’s the use but I’m assuming it’s not a ****ty picture.
They prioritized viewing angle over fundamentals cause let's face it....the average consumer doesn't go into the store looking at near black uniformity stats, gradients, nor do they know the meaning of banding, clipping etc etc. But they do get wowed by the better angles that automatically stand out from the tv set right beneath it when approaching it and walking up to it from an angle. It's all about the sales numbers and could care less how much they piss off the minority of enthusiasts.

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post #114 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 06:48 PM
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Then you must have those D-Nice magical eyes. I viewed one with a professional calibrator who happened to be in BB with the Magnolia manager and he didnt see any of that. I'm watching one this very moment and dont see it



You may be victim to the AVS Groupthink hysteria that has infected this forum for the last 15 years on certain subjects.
Even if i was blind as a bat i could spot this heavy blooming on the z9f from a mile away.

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That was my point exactly - while the Q90 may have done a remarkable job compensating for the weaknesses of the Q9FN and largely closing the remaining gals with WOLED, the suposed advantage it has in increased brighness levels over WOLED may prove to be pretty much a wash in the end...

We'll need to wait to see what the quantitative reviewers like Rtings.com and the shootouts have to say (though I'll admit these early reviews have me i trigued).
I'm not sure how much that matters. He does say it's only at wide angles that the slight blooming is seen. Does not say at exactly at what angles it begins to show up. Not sure if the shoot outs really examine sets in that regard.

"There is still one residual issue when it comes to watching the 65Q90R from a wide horizontal or, especially, vertical angle: slightly increased backlight blooming around bright high dynamic range (HDR) objects when they appear against very dark backdrops. This only appears with very extreme content, though. And even when it does, it’s still pretty limited in terms of both the distance the blooming travels, and how intense it looks.

"Aside from some residual traces during wide angle viewing, the set almost completely removes LCD’s traditional problems with backlight leakage, blooming, clouding, or inconsistencies.

"This, together with a new black filter that greatly reduces the impact of ambient light reflections on the screen, means that the QN65Q90R suffers with pretty much no backlight clouding at all. Even when you’re watching footage as stark and dynamic as the HDR scenes on the moon in the First Man 4K Blu-ray.

"What’s more, the set’s fundamental black level is incredible. If a film contains a cut to black, the screen goes completely black. So much so that you can scarcely see it’s still running even in a blacked out room. Yet when the picture returns, there’s none of the sudden backlight flash you used to get when LCDs just turned off all their backlighting for fade to blacks and then had to turn them on again.

"Because the new backlight and dimming engine can hit such deep blacks without blooming, the image also remains stunningly consistent in black level terms. By which I mean that even as objects move if bright objects move around a dark screen you don’t see a hint of the usual haloing or, worse, obvious adjusting of chunky ‘blocks’ of LEDs.

"Nor do you generally see big distracting ‘steps’ in the baseline backlight level as the image switches between dark and bright shots.

"Couple all this to the lack of any clouding or blooming in the black bars that sit above and below widescreen films and you’re talking about far and away the most immersive and pristine picture the LCD TV world has ever produced. In fact, again we’re talking about a level of backlight consistency and performance that rivals OLED.

"Except that in the 65Q90R’s case (in its Standard preset mode, anyway), it’s beautiful black levels are joined by levels of brightness that OLED simply cannot achieve.

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post #116 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 06:55 PM
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That's just a copy of a review from another website but they have used there own words like some kind of bad translater lol.
Many thanks for correcting me. Looks like it is plagiarism of What Hi-Fi review: https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/samsung-qe65q90r

Definitely a much easier read
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post #117 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 07:20 PM
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Q90 was build to perform best in dim lit to bright room. Not an Oled killer in a dark environment.
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Last edited by losservatore; 03-03-2019 at 07:47 PM.
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post #118 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 07:44 PM
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Even if i was blind as a bat i could spot this heavy blooming on the z9f from a mile away.
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Thats a Z9F? Yikes. Unacceptable for sure.
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post #119 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 08:10 PM
 
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Thats a Z9F? Yikes. Unacceptable for sure.
Not the ones I have seen. Here goes the famous AVS Groupthink again
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post #120 of 285 Old 03-03-2019, 08:16 PM
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Except you get to have that added brightness if and when you want/need it plus a wider color gamut, greater color volume and without any risk of image retention. They all have their pluses and minuses. Video quality is not just about blacks even though everyone with an OLED will tell you so.
It sounds like you're employing a logical fallacy here and making an argument on the behalf of others. It's not JUST about blacks, but for videophiles, the canvas upon which the image is "painted" is the #1 consideration with color, resolution, and motion following (not far) behind.
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Last edited by video_analysis; 03-03-2019 at 08:23 PM.
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