Samsung Q90 QLED Hands-On & Review - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 06:45 AM
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Going by what Sony did with the Z9F, less light shouldn't be an issue but rather black levels be a possible area of trade-off. However, the few owner or hands-on reviews thus far are suggesting no immediately visible trade-off with the Samsung Q90.
With any fortune, the ultra wide and elite black filter will help rein in light from within evenly and expel unwanted external sources. The showroom shots certainly appear to demonstrate this in their harshest of lit conditions.
There seems to be a lot of concern over whether the Q90's will be bright enough, as opposed to being able to show the information in the HDR signal that affords greater clarity.
With tone mapping in mind, I've ordered a Panasonic UB9000 player as it's own built in HDR Optimiser option appears to offer the best of both worlds with pulling in detail without overall light and shadow detail loss.

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post #92 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 06:58 AM
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So far from what has been said the Q90 in HDR puts out between 1450 and 1700 nits which is pretty much on par with what the Q9FN was putting out....In SDR in john archers review he did say that SDR was dimmer with the same settings on the Q90 compared to the Q9FN. That's not really an issue though since SDR is usually calibrated at 120nits in a dark room and me personally have it around 200 nits in a bright room which was a backlight setting of around 20 on my previous sets. That should be plenty bright. Plus as mentioned if they have corrected the EOTF it will straight away look less bright in HDR because the 2018 sets were overly bright and incorrect in HDR.
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post #93 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 07:06 AM
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Exactly, Samsung has moved away from the light enhanced setup of last year.
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post #94 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 07:19 AM
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Thank God I know you're joking. Blue font or someone will take you seriously. He's getting paid so he's a professional. The question is at what?
Lol...well your right, I guess all one has to do is buy some software and equipment and BANG...I am now a a pro. Self proclaimed...self taught. Is there actually any schooling...exams...state certifications...state licenses. Or can anyone be an instant "pro" after buying some software/equipment?

Back on topic...

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post #95 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 07:29 AM
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Thank God I know you're joking. Blue font or someone will take you seriously. He's getting paid so he's a professional. The question is at what?
He is a professional troll.

Any other reviewer is a paid clown according to Apothexis Kwantum.
Most of the TVs he gets are the ones he returns just before the return date expires.
It is obvious he writes negative reviews so he can get full refunds from his purchases.
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post #96 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 07:38 AM
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He is a professional troll.

Any other reviewer is a paid clown according to Apothexis Kwantum.
Most of the TVs he gets are the ones he returns just before the return date expires.
It is obvious he writes negative reviews so he can get full refunds from his purchases.
The only good tv is the one he can't return. Lol. But enough about this...back to the Q90R

Hint hint

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post #97 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 08:03 AM
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That's good info Mark.

I think it's fair that you aren't going to go and scrape up the cash to go purchase a random lottery set and measure it. I also think it's fair on the flip side that people are skeptical of cherry picked review units that go out to reviewers since we know that there is more variation in a television than in many other consumer products.
I do not think a manufacturer is going to test lets say 10 units just to send the best one to a reviewer, at that point why not look at 20, 30, 40? There is a point where it becomes pointless, as no TV is perfect. I guess in the end, does it really matter? A cherry picked unit is how much better then a normal unit? That same cherry picked unit can not power on one day just like any other set, then what.... I know the cherry picked units will have anomalies just like every other unit out there. Show me a TV, I am sure I can find something wrong with it.
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post #98 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post
I do not think a manufacturer is going to test lets say 10 units just to send the best one to a reviewer, at that point why not look at 20, 30, 40? There is a point where it becomes pointless, as no TV is perfect. I guess in the end, does it really matter? A cherry picked unit is how much better then a normal unit? That same cherry picked unit can not power on one day just like any other set, then what.... I know the cherry picked units will have anomalies just like every other unit out there. Show me a TV, I am sure I can find something wrong with it.
I'm not so sure. To me it would seem very plausible that a manufacture would ask the supervisor/employees in the screen assembly building to keep an eye out for some of the better screens during the testing and set them aside. Then have those screens assembled into tv's and send them out to reviewers.

They are not going to open 10 random boxes...or 100 to find the best. They would find the best much earlier on during manufacturing/assembly, would be my thinking. I tend to think ALL manufactures would do that. Not a Samsung only thing.

But I'm just guessing...
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post #99 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
I'm not so sure. To me it would seem very plausible that a manufacture would ask the supervisor/employees in the screen assembly building to keep an eye out for some of the better screens during the testing and set them aside. Then have those screens assembled into tv's and send them out to reviewers.

They are not going to open 10 random boxes...or 100 to find the best. They would find the best much earlier on during manufacturing/assembly, would be my thinking. I tend to think ALL manufactures would do that. Not a Samsung only thing.

But I'm just guessing...
Serious question... do you know much about what goes on in a "screen assembly building" Or is this truly a guess (i.e. no actual insight)? Especially in the context of thinking "all manufacturers would do that" I think it's important to avoid the "I read it somewhere" effect that can happen when folks read a statement like that.

Because if it's informed by experience, great. Indeed, tell me more.

But if it's a guess (and you do say it is that) and you have no actual idea if it's even possible to do what you suggest, then it's not all that helpful. Namely, can you really test a TV series of screens before actual assembly, connection to power supply, etc? I wish I knew the answer.

Full disclosure: I do not know or have the answer. I have not visited a TV factory.

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Last edited by imagic; 03-09-2019 at 09:02 AM.
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post #100 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Serious question... do you know much about what goes on in a "screen assembly building" Or is this truly a guess? Especially in the context of thinking "all manufacturers would do that."

Because if it's informed by experience, great. But if it's just a guess and you have no actual idea, then it's not all that helpful.

Full disclosure: I do not have the answer.
Just a guess. Pointing out there are other conceivable ways to do selecting than pulling 10 or 100 ready to go boxes off the self and opening them. More time an cost efficient I would think.

Not helpful, I know. Only an insider would know for sure...

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post #101 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
Just a guess. Pointing out there are other conceivable ways to do selecting than pulling 10 or 100 ready to go boxes off the self and opening them. More time an cost efficient I would think.

Not helpful, I know. Only an insider would know for sure...
Sure, I guess for specific parts, you could do some binning. But even so, I'd think a TV is dependent on the "sum of the parts" as much as anything.

I'd like to think reviewers were that important in the grand scheme of things, to merit such exceptional measures. I have my doubts.

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post #102 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 09:11 AM
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Sure, I guess for specific parts, you could do some binning. But even so, I'd think a TV is dependent on the "sum of the parts" as much as anything.

I'd like to think reviewers were that important in the grand scheme of things, to merit such exceptional measures. I have my doubts.
Building anticipation is an important part of the game me tinks. Reading one positive review after another till...I must have $$$$ !



I know I want one! Rather have an 8K model...but me thin wallets screaming "NO WAY!!".


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post #103 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by encaser View Post
Going by what Sony did with the Z9F, less light shouldn't be an issue but rather black levels be a possible area of trade-off. However, the few owner or hands-on reviews thus far are suggesting no immediately visible trade-off with the Samsung Q90.
With any fortune, the ultra wide and elite black filter will help rein in light from within evenly and expel unwanted external sources. The showroom shots certainly appear to demonstrate this in their harshest of lit conditions.
There seems to be a lot of concern over whether the Q90's will be bright enough, as opposed to being able to show the information in the HDR signal that affords greater clarity.
With tone mapping in mind, I've ordered a Panasonic UB9000 player as it's own built in HDR Optimiser option appears to offer the best of both worlds with pulling in detail without overall light and shadow detail loss.
Yep, that's what I'm waiting for conformation of...has Samsung truly been able to pull off...wide angle...PLUS...black blacks and near black detail. Reviews so far seem to hint that they have. Oled like territory.

I saw Vincent had a vid up on the Panasonic player the HDR Optimiser...sounds really nice. Look forward to your comments on it.

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post #104 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 09:39 AM
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How does the Q90R compare to the Q9FN? I can get them both through my work discount for $2599.
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post #105 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenbar View Post
Building anticipation is an important part of the game me tinks. Reading one positive review after another till...I must have $$$$ !



I know I want one! Rather have an 8K model...but me thin wallets screaming "NO WAY!!".

I do like that gif PQ.

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post #106 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 12:08 PM
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I do like that gif PQ.

Lol...I see motion issues.

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post #107 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 12:26 PM
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lcd light dispersion, the physics

My understanding is:

1) The LCD matrix blocks or passes light depending on the voltage applied to the pixel. 1a) Almost all of the passed light is emitted from the face of the panels. 1b) Some of the passed light leaks to adjacent pixels before being emitted from the face of the panel.

2) The light emitted from the face of the panel can be: 2a) forced to pass through a narrow slit (mostly blocked), 2b) concentrated (focused) in a particular direction or 2c) widely dispersed.

Some claim 1b is the source of blooming in a FALD. I don't buy this. On my FALD tv, if I turn off FALD, there is no blooming. Blooming is the result of the eye being able to see a greater dynamic range than the native CR of the LCD, not pixel to pixel light leakage. Dark pixels in a brightly lit zone look lighter than dark pixels in a dark zone.

Relative intensifies observed by the eye: 2b >> 2c ~ 2a

Disagree? What am I missing?
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Originally Posted by bigolyt View Post
How does the Q90R compare to the Q9FN? I can get them both through my work discount for $2599.
I havent seen the Q90R but have seen the Q9FN and it's brutal. Terrible shadow detail, Dirty screen effect (DSE), many have poor panels which means you are in a lottery to get a decent panel, crushed blacks, average off axis, below average motion. I wouldnt have it at $1000
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post #109 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 12:57 PM
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How does the Q90R compare to the Q9FN? I can get them both through my work discount for $2599.
That's a big discount.
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post #110 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cah95046 View Post
My understanding is:

1) The LCD matrix blocks or passes light depending on the voltage applied to the pixel. 1a) Almost all of the passed light is emitted from the face of the panels. 1b) Some of the passed light leaks to adjacent pixels before being emitted from the face of the panel.

2) The light emitted from the face of the panel can be: 2a) forced to pass through a narrow slit (mostly blocked), 2b) concentrated (focused) in a particular direction or 2c) widely dispersed.

Some claim 1b is the source of blooming in a FALD. I don't buy this. On my FALD tv, if I turn off FALD, there is no blooming. Blooming is the result of the eye being able to see a greater dynamic range than the native CR of the LCD, not pixel to pixel light leakage. Dark pixels in a brightly lit zone look lighter than dark pixels in a dark zone.

Relative intensifies observed by the eye: 2b >> 2c ~ 2a

Disagree? What am I missing?
Yes, halo/bloom is caused by native contrast of the KCD panel not being sufficient to bring the black level of 'off' pixels down below the perceptible threshold.

The only 3 ways to reduce halo/bloom on a FALD LED/LCD are to:

-improve native contrast ratio of the LCD panel (~7000:1 is about the max).

-reduce the size of local dimming zones (by using more).

-improve the lical dimming algorithm so that each and every zone is only 'lit up' to the minimum luminance required to emit whatever are the brightest pixels within that zone (especially those zones also containing black / off pixels...).

All of that being said, this is true only for on-axis. One of the ways VA LCDs have delivered poor off-axis viewing is poorer black levels and increased halo/bloom when viewed off-axis. These off-axis photons are probably 'leaking' or otherwise the result of dispersion that corresponds to your 1b above.

So off-axis halo/bloom may not be strictly dependant on native contrast ratio only... (and if Samsung has succeeded to reduce/eliminate off-axis halo/bloom by adding these additional layers, that is fantastic).
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post #111 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigolyt View Post
How does the Q90R compare to the Q9FN? I can get them both through my work discount for $2599.
That's a big discount.
Yep, not to turn this into a deals thread but see deals thread.
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Originally Posted by agincourt View Post
I havent seen the Q90R but have seen the Q9FN and it's brutal. Terrible shadow detail, Dirty screen effect (DSE), many have poor panels which means you are in a lottery to get a decent panel, crushed blacks, average off axis, below average motion. I wouldnt have it at $1000


I have a 75 qf9n and I think it’s pretty darn good.


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post #113 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 01:34 PM
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How does the Q90R compare to the Q9FN? I can get them both through my work discount for $2599.


I’m under the mindset that the engineers at Samsung are not going to put out an inferior product to last years model. Buy the tv and enjoy it. Most of the golden eyes around here see fault in every tv. It’s their hobby. My hobby is to sit back, drink a whiskey and enjoy my toys that I work hard to have.


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I have a 75 qf9n and I think it’s pretty darn good.


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Put it up against a Z9F and you will change your opinion. I did in 3 separate stores with the same material and it wasnt pretty for the QF9N
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Has a price for 75Q90 been announced? LG has already announced $6999 I believe on the 77 C9.

A street price of $4500 on the Q90, if it doesn't have any glaring defects and supports most HDMI 2.1 features would pretty much make it a shoe in for me if LG keeps 77 priced where it is.
Looks like B&H has removed the OLED77C9 for the moment, it had been listed at $6999.
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Put it up against a Z9F and you will change your opinion. I did in 3 separate stores with the same material and it wasnt pretty for the QF9N


I suppose you could be right but here’s the thing. I only watch one tv on my wall at a time. So to me my q9 looks really flipping good. Way better than my zt60 it replaced. Makes my epson 5040 look like garbage. So much in fact we find ourselves watching movies on the 75 instead of the 120.


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post #117 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 02:48 PM
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Looks like B&H has removed the OLED77C9 for the moment, it had been listed at $6999.
Yeah, I didn't think that leaked/floated/guessed launch MSRP was going to stand up with the Q90 pricing Samsung has announced.

I mean, $5000 for a 75Q90 or $7000 for a 77C9? Pretty easy decision...

Or $6500 for an 82Q90 or $7000 for a 77C9? Even easier (if you're looking for a screen that large).

Don't be surprised if the 77C8 ends up launching with an MSRP of $6000 or even $5500...
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post #118 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 02:50 PM
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Mark: sorry for being slightly off topic:
does the Q900 also have the new optical layer?
tia
It would avoid confusion if we could just use a couple of extra characters in the model designation. Q900RA is the 2018 model which does not have the wide-angle feature. Q900RB is the 2019 model which does have it.
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post #119 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigolyt View Post
How does the Q90R compare to the Q9FN? I can get them both through my work discount for $2599.


I’m under the mindset that the engineers at Samsung are not going to put out an inferior product to last years model. Buy the tv and enjoy it. Most of the golden eyes around here see fault in every tv. It’s their hobby. My hobby is to sit back, drink a whiskey and enjoy my toys that I work hard to have.


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I’m with you. I don’t know how this crew ever enjoys their tv when all they do is look for flaws. Better go run some magenta slides if the gray ones didn’t show anything bad.
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post #120 of 192 Old 03-09-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
So off-axis halo/bloom may not be strictly dependant on native contrast ratio only... (and if Samsung has succeeded to reduce/eliminate off-axis halo/bloom by adding these additional layers, that is fantastic).
There are reports that Samsung has succeeded in doing that very thing.

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