With 8K TVs, More Pixels Make a Better Picture - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:27 PM
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post #32 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
I'm just going to post this and then back out slowly...


Presumably, ignoring any of the points that I am making about algorithms and upsampling and aliasing, and real-world observations that I communicated in written words, and simply going for the ole "here's a chart" argument. That's an online forum classic!

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post #33 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:42 PM
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How close to the screen do you 8k fans want to sit?
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post #34 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Presumably, ignoring any of the points that I am making about algorithms and upsampling and aliasing, and real-world observations that I communicated in written words, and simply going for the ole "here's a chart" argument. That's an online forum classic!

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You are most welcome

The fact of the matter is that most home theaters with multiple rows of seating do not realize the potential of 4K resolution from all seating positions due to hitting the limits of HVP, so 8K resolution? Well...

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post #35 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:43 PM
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At my current viewing distance of 8' I will need a 130" 8K screen.

That chart is pretty accurate, it is matching the distance I used for a 60" 1080p as well as what I now use for a 65" 4K.
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post #36 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:43 PM
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Always in favor of technological advancement so moving to 8K gets my attention for sports. As for movies and those shot on film - i think they will look even more like video - why my 1080p projector is a keeper, the cinematic look i enjoy.
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post #37 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post
How close to the screen do you 8k fans want to sit?
Well to perceive the difference this is the correct viewing distance for 8K resolution TVs... just sayin'



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post #38 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:48 PM
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***My chart wouldn't have any 480p on it. And speaking of cables, I happen to be one of the few, rare owners of the "Diamond Tipped-Sonic Cables" that Dr. Ziggy Stenzel perfected nearly twenty years ago before he mysteriously disappeared. There are only 10 pairs known in existence. I have one of them AND will let them go for a mere $1,000 per cable. (I hate to part with them but I must pay my student loan off.)

These cables are so good that you will hear things you never heard before - - guaranteed. They solve problems that don't exist and fix audio problems that will exist in the future - - they're that good. PM me and you can keep these babies "on ice" until you get your new 8K TV.
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post #39 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Presumably, ignoring any of the points that I am making about algorithms and upsampling and aliasing, and real-world observations that I communicated in written words, and simply going for the ole "here's a chart" argument. That's an online forum classic!

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The chart is based on human visual acuity (one arc-minute). If the eye doesn't have the pixels to see the results of those algorithms, etc., what difference do they make?
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post #40 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Well to perceive the difference this is the correct viewing distance for 8K resolution TVs... just sayin'



Cute... where the heck did the "like" button go in this forum? It's been a while since I've posted.
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post #41 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:54 PM
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How long with budget projectors E-Shift 1080p into 8K?
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post #42 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 01:56 PM
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AI upscaling has a ton of potential. Just look how much AI can do with photo imagery already. Or video games; the new AI upscaling of textures from old games is amazing. Potentially we'll be able to view old TV videos in 8K resolution and not be able to tell that they were shot in 480p or worse.
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post #43 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 02:03 PM
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I love this thread.
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post #44 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 02:10 PM
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Maybe a dumb question, but according to that chart extra pixels don't matter at certain distances.

So if I had an image that was alternating colour every pixel; black, white, black, white, etc. and it was a 4k image that I wanted to display @ 1080p. Would the 1080p image not just ignore every other pixel and I'd either get all white or all black? But in 4k I'd have a different experience, regardless of distance from the screen?
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post #45 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post
The chart is based on human visual acuity (one arc-minute). If the eye doesn't have the pixels to see the results of those algorithms, etc., what difference do they make?
Effects like flickering and moire are reduced with certain types of scenes. These artifacts can occur even if the pixels are smaller than the eye can see.

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post #46 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Stittle View Post
Maybe a dumb question, but according to that chart extra pixels don't matter at certain distances.
Absolutely correct. 'Extra pixels' don't matter beyond the respective HVP threshold viewing distance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Stittle View Post
So if I had an image that was alternating colour every pixel; black, white, black, white, etc. and it was a 4k image that I wanted to display @ 1080p. Would the 1080p image not just ignore every other pixel and I'd either get all white or all black? But in 4k I'd have a different experience, regardless of distance from the screen?
A native 4K single pixel checkerboard test pattern will be perceived as a solid grey screen and identical as compared with if it were displayed downscaled to HD 1080p resolution once you are viewing it beyond the respective HVP threshold viewing distance.

In other words you won't be able to perceive any difference

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post #47 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Absolutely correct. 'Extra pixels' don't matter beyond the respective HVP threshold viewing distance


A native 4K single pixel checkerboard test pattern will be perceived as a solid grey screen and identical as compared with if it were displayed downscaled to HD 1080p resolution once you are viewing it beyond the respective HVP threshold viewing distance.

In other words you won't be able to perceive any difference

Right, but what if it is not downscaled?

Let me think of this going the other way, from 1080p to 4k. Let's say the 1080p image is solid white, but it was originally intended to be the black and white pattern. Once 4k is available, suddenly it can do the black and white pattern and the result may look gray. But the 1080p version will always just look solid white. So, in that sense, it seems to me that more pixels is an important feature for colour reproduction?
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post #48 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Stittle View Post
Right, but what if it is not downscaled?

Let me think of this going the other way, from 1080p to 4k. Let's say the 1080p image is solid white, but it was originally intended to be the black and white pattern. Once 4k is available, suddenly it can do the black and white pattern and the result may look gray. But the 1080p version will always just look solid white. So, in that sense, it seems to me that more pixels is an important feature for colour reproduction?
If you output a native 4K resolution checkerboard test pattern to a HD 1080p resolution display, one of two things will occur... if the display is such that it does not downconvert video signals to the native resolution, in this example being HD 1080p resolution, then absolutely no image at all will be displayed and you will probably see some kind of error message along the lines 'Video Format Not Supported'. Otherwise, if the display is such that it does downconvert video signals to the native resolution, then you will see a solid grey screen. You won't ever see a solid white screen unless the display is malfunctioning. So no, more pixels is not "an important feature for colour reproduction"

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post #49 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 02:58 PM
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Cute... where the heck did the "like" button go in this forum? It's been a while since I've posted.
The "like" button is in native 8K resolution so it is invisible unless you are viewing via an 8K resolution display...











... Just kidding, Here it is:



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post #50 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Absolutely correct. 'Extra pixels' don't matter beyond the respective HVP threshold viewing distance


A native 4K single pixel checkerboard test pattern will be perceived as a solid grey screen and identical as compared with if it were displayed downscaled to HD 1080p resolution once you are viewing it beyond the respective HVP threshold viewing distance.

In other words you won't be able to perceive any difference

Hey, you think I'm writing nonsense? I can verify my observations and indeed can replicate them on the TV I'm using to type this.

I have a computer, it's got Photoshop, feeding 4K to a 4K TV.

So, right now, in my own home, as I type this, I can tell you in no uncertain terms, that I have to get about 30+ feet away from the 75 inch TV that I'm using to see no stairstep whatsoever—just a smooth (slightly) diagonal line. That's with sharpening off (as it should be) It's a question of seeing one single pixel, or not. I can see that stair-step transition from quite a distance.

Yes, at such distance, a single-pixel checkerboard looks grey. Not arguing that. Indeed, the checkerboard looks grey a lot closer than 30 feet, in 4K.

Interestingly, with 4K anti-aliasing can't "fix" it, the line looks like it's getting fatter and skinnier, even from 30+ feet. So either stair-steps, or fat/skinny. With 8K the anti-aliasing would be more effective and the diagonal line would look much smoother, but still sharp, from a much closer distance.

Another interesting thing is from how far away you can see a one pixel wide, screen-width black line on a white background in 4K You can see it from very, very far away. It does not disappear and become white. I had to exit my house and cross the street before it disappeared. Eyes are capable of discerning that line despite it being much thinner than what you should be able to "see."

I'm looking for the maximum distance at which I can see, make out, however you want to define it, the difference a single pixel can make. Exactly as described in the article itself.

There is no chart in the world that's gonna replace the fact that I can replicate these effects right now, as I type this.

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Last edited by imagic; 05-10-2019 at 04:35 PM.
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post #51 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 04:31 PM
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Its the new shiny toy so I will most likely buy it, who am I kidding I will definitely buy it. I am going to wait until 2021 mostly likely because the HDMI 2.1 chipset for Processors and avr's are due to in June 2020. I will get the chipset update on my Marantz 8805 and then buy a new shiny toy. Yes I know I am pathetic. LOL.

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post #52 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 04:48 PM
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I was looking at a 4k tv with a 4k picture on it from a foot away.

There is no jagged lines visible, it is like looking out a window.

Maybe we should get 4k mainstream before bragging about 8k... ?
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post #53 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shadowed View Post
I was looking at a 4k tv with a 4k picture on it from a foot away.

There is no jagged lines visible, it is like looking out a window.

Maybe we should get 4k mainstream before bragging about 8k... ?
Don't invite me over because before you know it we'll be looking at jaggy lines on your TV, from your neighbor's house.

The thing is, 8K content is one discussion, 8K panels and what you can do with processing if you have that finer-textured canvas to work with, when upsampling, is something else.

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Last edited by imagic; 05-10-2019 at 05:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Don't invite me over because before you know it we'll be looking at jaggy lines on your TV, from your neighbor's house.

The thing is, 8K content is one discussion, 8K panels and what you can do with processing if you have that finer-textured canvas to work with, when upsampling, is something else.
lol... my old 720p laptop is definitely a jag machine
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post #55 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 06:27 PM
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If you don't believe 8K will give you a better picture then your never believe what some tweaked out ultra signature clever little clocks will do for video and audio!
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post #56 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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If you don't believe 8K will give you a better picture then your never believe what some tweaked out ultra signature clever little clocks will do for video and audio!
$5000 TV & $30,000 power cord. The possibilities are endless. Imagination, the only limit.

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post #57 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 07:04 PM
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For me it is so hard to even start accepting 8K if we still now days have issue provide good 1080P or 4K so why to even deal with 8K now. 5-10 years from now yes but now? Give it some time like we did to whole 1080i and p and then yes let's make it better. For me it is rushing out with no reason so quick.
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post #58 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
If you output a native 4K resolution checkerboard test pattern to a HD 1080p resolution display, one of two things will occur... if the display is such that it does not downconvert video signals to the native resolution, in this example being HD 1080p resolution, then absolutely no image at all will be displayed and you will probably see some kind of error message along the lines 'Video Format Not Supported'. Otherwise, if the display is such that it does downconvert video signals to the native resolution, then you will see a solid grey screen. You won't ever see a solid white screen unless the display is malfunctioning. So no, more pixels is not "an important feature for colour reproduction"

Hm, right. But wouldn't that only be the case if the downsampler was using an average to get the final grey output? What if the downsampler did something different instead of taking the average of the nearest pixels? I haven't checked to see what kind of edges cases there are with different algorithms but I am a bit hung up on the fact that the chart is basically stating that the way we perceive light sources is identical at a given distances. The pixels essentially become individual light sources, which combine to become bigger light sources and so on... and no matter what those light sources are, the lumens and wavelengths hitting our eye will be perceived the same way.

My skepticism originally comes from everyone saying 60fps is as much as you can discern. Then 90, then 120, then 144... etc. It's easy enough to show that that's hogwash by just witnessing anything in high fps. There is an immediate difference and although individual frames may not be perceivable, the overall difference is noticeable.

And does anyone know the purpose of that chart any how? Some kind of "wake up sheeple!" situation or is there a scientific use for it?
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post #59 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 07:38 PM
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There's a weird amount of focus on cable and broadcast. Most of that will never go to 4K or even 1080p. Forget 8K. It's just not where these companies are investing as viewership/subscribers decline and move to streaming. There will also never be an 8K physical format. If these are your standards for when 8K should arrive, you're basically saying never.

Streaming, meanwhile, is well along the 4K HDR road and will transition to 8K once the relevant companies feel there are enough TVs out there. Regardless, it will be a long while until there's a big library of native 8K content. If, in the mean time, 8K displays can really improve lower resolution video, I don't see why we shouldn't embrace it.
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post #60 of 193 Old 05-10-2019, 07:50 PM
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8K still a way to the future that road paved yout money...
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