With 8K TVs, More Pixels Make a Better Picture - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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With 8K TVs, More Pixels Make a Better Picture

Food for thought... Digital photographers have known about superior algorithms providing better upscaling and noise reduction for many years. It was only a matter of time, and the application of Moore's law, before processing reached a point where these algorithms and techniques could be applied to video in almost real time. That time has now arrived, and it is packaged as AI processing. What's important to note is that it is indeed beneficial to have more pixels to work with when performing what's known as convolution-kernel editing. And the end result of that processing, including the preservation of edge contrast (sharp lines) while concurrently mitigating easily spottable artifacts (stair stepping/aliasing, moire) is a cleaner image, with more apparent detail, that is pleasing to look at (not artificial-looking), and that this benefit applies to upscaled content in addition to native.

To read more, click this link.

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post #2 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 06:03 AM
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Am I excited for 8k? Absolutely! It hosts a whole new set of obvious benefits: more powerful processing, added bit depth (hopefully), and numerous other enhancements.

However, is 8k necessary at the moment? No! We are barely getting through the transition to 4k. UHD is still in its infancy, as is HDR, with no real standards established that ran the world of Rec. 709. While streaming content has embraced the change and offers a lot of new content in 4k and sometimes HDR, the world of television is woefully behind. I won’t even get into the fact that 4k is limited to select programming; the fact remains that most HD content is still broadcast at 720P! Even 1080 content is still at 1080i! This hasn’t changed in the years since HD was introduced in the mid 2000’s with the exception of the number of channels now broadcast in HD.

Will I purchase an 8k television for my living room? I’m sure I will, but only once my beloved Sony 940c shows its age. Will I buy and 8k projector for my media room? Yep, as soon as the cost associated matches the benefit (projectors are just now embracing full 4k resolution at a consumer friendly cost).

What does 8k mean for the consumer right now? A nice marketing ploy to get everyone out purchasing a new television! Just when you thought you had the best of the best with 4k, hear comes glossy 8k strutting its stuff around with its added pixels and bragging rights to family and friends. Not to mention what will come next to get you to purchase it - even more quantomy quantmp dots!!!!!!

Sorry to go on a rant - pessimism doesn’t always suit me well. With that said, I’m obviously passionate about this subject! Now, let me run out and buy the first one off the shelf. Sorry, I’m a first adopter and I can’t help it, lol. I will forget everything I just said when I see the shiny new object calling my name.

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post #3 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 06:56 AM
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Unless it comes with 3-D and Aromarama, I don't think I care about more quantomy quantum dots and 64 trillion color variations that are beyond the spectrum of human vision. Maybe when they add some more Ks.
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post #4 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 07:11 AM
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Mark when you get to review one of those, please let us know how crisp DVD's look. All those pixels and the AI based upscaler should have a field day.

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post #5 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 07:29 AM
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Sorry...but this whole 8K AI upscaling nonsense makes me laugh.

Reminds me of the old saying...”you can’t polish a turd”.

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post #6 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 07:48 AM
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No interest at all. More interested in HBO, SHO, basically premium channels broadcasting in 4k. Continuing to wait.

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post #7 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Mark when you get to review one of those, please let us know how crisp DVD's look. All those pixels and the AI based upscaler should have a field day.
Finally, I'll get to watch Candyman the way it's meant to be seen. And True Lies, too.

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post #8 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 07:53 AM
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Finally, I'll get to watch Candyman the way it's meant to be seen. And True Lies, too.
And Star Wars episode 4-6.
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post #9 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 08:05 AM
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I am just here for the jokes...
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post #10 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 08:22 AM
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I could care less what anyone thinks about the theoretical. What I'm interested in is what people actually see with their own eyes when viewing the real thing. So what I find interesting in the @imagic article is this:

Quote:
Now, let’s consider what happens when you upscale from 4K to 8K. You have four times the total number of pixels to work with, and you have twice the number of rows and columns with which to express those stair-steps in the diagonal lines. As an experiment, I put a 4K and an 8K TV side-by-side (85″ TVs) in a large room and walked backward until I could no longer see stair-steps in the lines. For the 8K TV, an 82″ Samsung Q900F, the line became smooth at about a 15-foot viewing distance. But the 4K TV (also an 82″ Samsung) required that I step back to somewhere around 40-50 feet away before the lines became smooth—I was very surprised that I had to triple the distance, I thought it would happen at double the distance. This is one provable, observable reason upscaling to 8K can yield a visible benefit.
That clearly demonstrates to me that upscaling to 8k can have practical benefits over 4k in the real world. It's not just about native 4k vs. native 8k but the benefits of much better upscaling with increasingly more sophisticated AI. The real question is how much people are willing to pay for those visual improvements. As with any new technology early implementers will pay a high price while those who wait for 8k to become mainstream won't be paying much more than mainstream 4k today.

Theoretical beliefs aside, everyone is going to need to see it with their own eyes to determine their own personal sweet spot on the price/performance curve.
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post #11 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 09:10 AM
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I'm not mad at this...


But I have two concerns:


One. There is no current standard and, indeed, no current connection for the delivery of 8K content. I would be sick if, like many of the early 4K adopters, I ended up with an 8K display that lacked the yet-to-be-engineered-or-announced ability to accept 8K content. Currently, the JVC 8K projector can't actually accept 8K content. Instead, JVC claims that a combination of oversampled content and their proprietary 8K upscaling would result in a superior image... from what I've read here the jury is still out on that.


Two. I worry that the race for 8K will take attention and resources away from something that I think a lot of consumers would really like to see: more affordable, truly BIG LCD/OLED panels. I'm talking 100" and greater here. I'm 100% in on 4K after years of being 'meh' on it when it was only available in small, flatpanel sizes. It took seeing 4K in a large format-- on a projector and screen-- to truly appreciate it's potential. I'm an unrepentant front projection stan because it's currently the best, most affordable way to experience large format entertainment at home. If direct view displays could offer an alternative that would be a big deal for a lot of people.

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post #12 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage11x View Post
I'm not mad at this...


But I have two concerns:


One. There is no current standard and, indeed, no current connection for the delivery of 8K content. I would be sick if, like many of the early 4K adopters, I ended up with an 8K display that lacked the yet-to-be-engineered-or-announced ability to accept 8K content. Currently, the JVC 8K projector can't actually accept 8K content. Instead, JVC claims that a combination of oversampled content and their proprietary 8K upscaling would result in a superior image... from what I've read here the jury is still out on that.


Two. I worry that the race for 8K will take attention and resources away from something that I think a lot of consumers would really like to see: more affordable, truly BIG LCD/OLED panels. I'm talking 100" and greater here. I'm 100% in on 4K after years of being 'meh' on it when it was only available in small, flatpanel sizes. It took seeing 4K in a large format-- on a projector and screen-- to truly appreciate it's potential. I'm an unrepentant front projection stan because it's currently the best, most affordable way to experience large format entertainment at home. If direct view displays could offer an alternative that would be a big deal for a lot of people.
here is your 8K Standard.

https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/index.aspx

How soon?
https://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=154

Its already appearing in devices from CES (4 months ago) devices as of January.

"Its 1080p to 4K" race all over again

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post #13 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by smhunter1983 View Post
here is your 8K Standard.

https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/index.aspx

How soon?
https://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=154

Its already appearing in devices from CES (4 months ago) devices as of January.

"Its 1080p to 4K" race all over again
Thanks for the links. I had no idea that 2.1 could handle 8K/60.


Again, not mad at this I'm just not interested until someone can sell me a screen large enough (that I can still afford). I appreciate 4K and appreciate what 4K can do for HD material. I'll go back to my projector corner and sulk now.
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post #14 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 09:29 AM
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Superior upscaling to 8k with more sophisticated AI is an immediate benefit. Native 8k content and full adherence to a single 8k standard are further down the line. Everyone is eventually going to get aboard the 8k train but from different stations down the line just as they have been doing with the 4k train
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post #15 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 09:50 AM
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I was looking at an 8K set at Best Buy with a Geek Squad member and I asked if it's possible to hook up a VCR. He said no there is no way for the internal processor to handle such a low quality signal it would crash the internal computer. I think maybe he had no idea what he was talking about.

As wonderful as it is to have the next best thing consumers may get tired of the pixel races. I tried to ignore 4K but alas I have a few hundred movies in 4K now and in a few years maybe I will have more 4K than 1080p. I have very little SD and only 3 LD rips but I don't remember if I lost those or not.

I know athletes and people who are other wise ridiculously overpaid need to have TVs too so that's fine. Just don't expect something to become any type of standard if it changes every year.


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post #16 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I was looking at an 8K set at Best Buy with a Geek Squad member and I asked if it's possible to hook up a VCR. He said no there is no way for the internal processor to handle such a low quality signal it would crash the internal computer. I think maybe he had no idea what he was talking about.

=Brian
Perhaps he tried connecting the analog output on a VCR directly to the HDMI input on his TV and came to this brilliant deduction.

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post #17 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 10:12 AM
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As an experiment, I put a 4K and an 8K TV side-by-side (85″ TVs) in a large room and walked backward until I could no longer see stair-steps in the lines. For the 8K TV, an 82″ Samsung Q900F, the line became smooth at about a 15-foot viewing distance. But the 4K TV (also an 82″ Samsung) required that I step back to somewhere around 40-50 feet away before the lines became smooth—I was very surprised that I had to triple the distance, I thought it would happen at double the distance. This is one provable, observable reason upscaling to 8K can yield a visible benefit.
Dude who wrote the article must have eagle-eye vision or is not a good judge of distance. I sit 14' from my Epson 5050 faux-K projector w/ 120" screen and I don't see any stair-steps. An 82" from 50' away must look the size of a laptop screen...surprised he can make out much of anything. I'd have to stand outside the house to get 50' away from the projector. Thank god he didn't do a comparison with a 1080p display or he'd have to move to another zip code before he stopped seeing things.
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post #18 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 10:13 AM
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This article sounds like a sales pitch I feeling like I am talking to a rep at best buy.
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post #19 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busa View Post
Dude who wrote the article must have eagle-eye vision or is not a good judge of distance. I sit 14' from my Epson 5050 faux-K projector w/ 120" screen and I don't see any stair-steps. An 82" from 50' away must look the size of a laptop screen...surprised he can make out much of anything. I'd have to stand outside the house to get 50' away from the projector. Thank god he didn't do a comparison with a 1080p display or he'd have to move to another zip code before he stopped seeing things.
20/20 right eye, 20/15 left eye... I do have decent vision.

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post #20 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by techvader View Post
This article sounds like a sales pitch I feeling like I am talking to a rep at best buy.
Probably because this article IS a sales pitch - this forum is a marketing/advertising platform first, and everything else second.
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post #21 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 11:13 AM
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Nice article Mark.

Better image -- that's what matters. I've read elsewhere the same old growls at 8K as an emerging standard, the same that were written about 4K, 1080p and HDTV in their day. If history serves in time 8K will be the only thing available and by that time the growls will be written about 64 and 128 K. Heck, let's skip to 512K and save some steps.

Better image -- keep it coming.
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post #22 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 11:44 AM
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How will sales go as the 2020 Tokyo Olympics gets broadcast in 8K? And, will it even be available in NA?
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Only if it has 3D and a curved screen.
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8K is old news. Hold out for 16K. It will make a compressed cable signal look all that much better. And boy - - you should see how great banding looks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techvader View Post
This article sounds like a sales pitch I feeling like I am talking to a rep at best buy.
***Ah, make sure you get the extended warranty. And an absolute must - let me include the certified, Best Buy "Gold 8K Cables." Otherwise, you won't get the most out of your new TV.

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post #26 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 12:13 PM
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I'm willing to believe that this "8k AI upscaling" may give a perceptible improvement in detail level, but mostly because the current content is so bitrate-starved that there are a *lot* of missing details thrown away during the compression, and those details are much more noticeable than an 8k-pixel sized feature would be.



I doubt that you could you really get any perceptible improvement from AI upscaling of an uncompressed 4k video... but if there are some blind tests that prove otherwise, I will of course change my mind.
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post #27 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Perhaps he tried connecting the analog output on a VCR directly to the HDMI input on his TV and came to this brilliant deduction.
I mean look who he was asking for advice....

I fully expected that kind if reply to happen.

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post #28 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 12:23 PM
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***Ah, make sure you get the extended warranty. And an absolute must - let me include the certified, Best Buy "Gold 8K Cables." Otherwise, you won't get the most out of your new TV.
we only carry Monster Cables. Tehy are da best. Full GeeBees through it.
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post #29 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 12:52 PM
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Finally, I'll get to watch Candyman the way it's meant to be seen. And True Lies, too.
OMG. 50 First Dates is just going to blow my mind on 8K

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post #30 of 172 Old 05-10-2019, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
Mark Henninger
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
***Ah, make sure you get the extended warranty. And an absolute must - let me include the certified, Best Buy "Gold 8K Cables." Otherwise, you won't get the most out of your new TV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smhunter1983 View Post
we only carry Monster Cables. Tehy are da best. Full GeeBees through it.
I certainly understand the spirit in which this is written. However, in case some newbie is reading this, I just want to make sure that something is clear for them...

I am a crusader against cable bull****. I would never make a false claim about cables, like one HDMI cable can look better than another, presuming both have enough bandwidth and are passing the signal. We live in a world of $30,000 "audiophile" power cords so obviously nothing is fair and nothing ever will be fair.

Monster XP versus Aluminum Foil: A Speaker Cable Test


Extended warranties... The fact is some folks in this forum have managed to take good advantage of warranties. It's insurance, you're obviously paying a premium, like all insurance. I mostly avoid them, but I do purchase accidental damage insurance for items that I use frequently, and in a manner where there is a risk that they will in fact be damaged.
scionracing, lucacow and TomcatTLC like this.

Mark Henninger
Editor, AVS Forum

Last edited by imagic; 05-10-2019 at 01:33 PM.
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